Pak Tea House » journalism, Karachi » The Dishonest Crooks of Our Urdu Press
The Dishonest Crooks of Our Urdu Press
Ladies and gentlemen I have long harped on about the paucity of honesty, integrity, intellect and just common sense that is common place in our Urdu Press. Needless to say the googlies of people like Hamid Mir, Oria Jaan Maqbool, Javed Chaudhry etc can make anyone’s headspin. A Lahore based English weekly has a special section dedicated to the bloopers of the Urdu press which is comment enough on such matters.
However, this website and this author has also gotten some attention from a newspaper from Karachi that specializes in spreading false religious frenzy. One such hilarious misrepresentation is how this particular author spun my short blog on Obama’s Nobel Prize win. Here is the original blog post for all to see: http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/congratulations-us-president-obama/
In this “article” (more like a two-liner) after congratulating President Obama for his Nobel Prize Win (which I think even Obama realizes is unjustified) I reminded the readers of President Obama’s election pledge vis a vis Kashmir. It is no secret that peace in Pakistan has deteriorated greatly in the last year or so and so I put peace in Pakistan on my wish list for Nobel Prize Winner. Those on my Facebook friends list know that my status all day was “Congratulations Mr. President on Nobel Speech Prize”. Only a fool could miss the heavy sarcastic undertone.
Now let us see how our genius from the Urdu Press spun it shamelessly:
And to think that this crook has signed off as a “Pakistani Muslim”. Is this what a Pakistani Muslim is about? Lying, control freakery? Now I was not aware of the fact that I am a Qadiani… may be Quaidiani (i.e. follower of Quaid-e-Azam) but not a Qadiani… but I frankly have no sectarian affiliations in faith (and to me personally there is no difference between Mirza Qadiani or Maulana Maududi… though the latter’s fitna has hurt Pakistan infinitely more than the former’s). But if this is what a “Pakistani Muslim” is like, I’d rather be something else – anything else. Atleast a Non-Muslim doesn’t make a mockery of Islam like the author of this piece. Shame on you Mr. Siddiqui! Indeed shame on Pakistan’s Jamaat-e-Fitna e Maududiat and its McCarthy-ism.
Now frankly it does not matter to me for barking dogs seldom bite. But what it does prove is that Pakistan’s Urdu press consists of a bunch of liars, crooks, cranks and madmen who will lie like there is no tomorrow and spin like Abdul Qadir. And it proves that Jamaat-e-Fitna-e-Maududiat is still active against Pakistan just like the 1940s when it abused Quaid-e-Azam and Pakistan like no tomorrow. That puts little ol’ me in distinguished company.
Filed under: journalism, Karachi · Tags: Cranks, Crooks, Daily Ummat, Jamaat-e-Islami, nobel prize, Nuggets from the Urdu Press, Urdu Press, yellow journalism
236 Responses to "The Dishonest Crooks of Our Urdu Press"
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The National Assembly can act as a constituent assembly.. without changing the basic structure of the constitution of 1973 which means:
1. Parliamentary
2. Democratic
3. Federal
4. Islamic
So long as this constitution and the third republic remain in effect, the only challenge to the 2nd Amendment can come from within the parliament. Perhaps one day this would be possible when enough people have realized how utterly embarrassing the 2nd amendment is for Pakistan.
Frankly I am not too concerned with this ridiculous branding of people so long as fundamental human rights and equality of citizenship of all citizens is protected wholly.
The real challenge lies against Ordinance XX and other discriminatory nonsense introduced by General Zia… which is ultra vires the constitution.
without changing the basic structure of the constitution
Something similar to Seervai and Keshavanand vs State of India.
Regards
@ YLH:
“So long as this constitution and the third republic remain in effect, the only challenge to the 2nd Amendment can come from within the parliament”.
Are you saying someone who is affected by 2nd amendment should give up hope of getting justice, and even hope of getting 1974 proceedings public?
If you are willing to move Pakistan Supreme Court to get 1974 proceedings public, it will be a great help to effectees of 2nd amendment.
YLH, if attorneys like you also don’t see any chance of redress, then I guess only some ACT OF GOD will deliver justice by either making proceedings public or making 1973 constitution invalid and with it there won’t be any need left for 2nd amendment.
When and how it will happen? Only time will tell.
P.S. YLH, if you think some thing can be done regarding getting 2nd amendment proceedings public, we can talk. Thanks.
Rashid sb,
God does not help those who don’t help themselves.
What I said was quite clear… the redress doesn’t lie in a court of law but parliament.
The course before you and the other sub-sect of Jamaat Ahmaddiya is clear : Contest elections … fight the constitutional battle here. But you don’t even want to do that. Every election year the Qadiyani Jamaat sends out a directive forbidding Ahmadis from voting … well such boycott is not helping anyone.
What is there to be scared of? If Ahmadis voted as a bloc (you far outnumber the Jamaat-e-Islami wallahs) and collaborated with the Shias and Christians and secular Pakistanis on a purely political basis, things could change… but you are scared that by speaking out and fighting constitutionally and politically you will endanger the community… well then keep sleeping.
We are all in danger today. The entire Pakistani state faces a grave danger… so why aren’t you ready to make this sacrifice ? Justice must be seized… not begged for.
As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?
Just to give you an example… the town of Rabwah with 95% Ahmadi population has a a non-Ahmadi MNA who has no reason to seek Ahmadi votes… because well they don’t vote.
@yasserlatifhamdani
October 27, 2009 at 10:38 am
Dear let me tell you some reality, Lutf may not like it. Qadiani Jamaat are probably not more than 4-lakhs (400, 000) in whole of Pakistan. Among them, those who can vote are even less than half. Qadianis don’t vote as they don’t accept they their non-Muslims status. Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. So, for Christians it is out of question to even consider any alliance with Qadianis. Moreover Qadianis learned a bitter lesson by getting involved in politics on their jamaat level in after math of 1971 elections, when they were stabbed by their savior ZAB in 1974.
Your: “As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?”
As why I want proceedings to be made public…. It will tell Pakistanis that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) is INNOCENT BYSTANDER VICTIM. Unfortunately, because of 2nd amendment, Islamic Literature produced by LAM in last 130 years which is as valid today as it was 100 years ago for defense and propagation of Islam in this onslaught on Holy Quran, Rasul Allah SAWS, and Islam (I mean Islam and NOT Muslims). Issue is not that few thousand LAM aka Lahori-Ahmadis be declared Muslim. LAM members do NOT need some certification of a Muslim from Pakistanis who have no regard for Kalma-Tayyaba and are slaughtering each other. Allah SWT knows who is Muslim and who is not. The POOR VICTIM Islam can get help in this global conflict, if Muslims take advantage of literature on Islam produced by LAM. Unfortunately, because of this 2nd amendment, Pakistanis Muslims in particular and general Muslims of the world deprive themselves of this literature PRODUCED IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. And when LAM members with their own efforts take them to non-Muslim perpetrators on VICTIM i.e. Islam, these perpetrators can not refute such presentation of Islam, so they take out old weapon from their arsenal and say, “why should we accept what you guys are saying, when you are not considered Muslim by your own countrymen in Pakistan”. I have witnessed this times and again, especially on hardcore ANTI-ISLAM website run by famous US Jew: http://www.jihadwatch.com
I am confident if LAM literature spreads in the world, peace will come to the world. This is the time of argument and reason. There is hadith, “Masih will argue with Dajjal”. These Dijjali nations need to be argued and invited to Islam, if Pakistanis and Muslims around the world want to live in peace and occupation free from USA, UK and other European countries.
YLH sahib, I hope you got my point. Proceedings of 2nd amendment is nor for few Lahori-Ahmadis (LAM) in almost 2 billion Muslims.
@yasserlatifhamdani
October 27, 2009 at 10:38 am
Dear let me tell you some reality, Lutf may not like it. Qadiani Jamaat are probably not more than 4-lakhs (400, 000) in whole of Pakistan. Among them, those who can vote are even less than half. Qadianis don’t vote as they don’t accept they their non-Muslims status. Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. So, for Christians it is out of question to even consider any alliance with Qadianis. Moreover Qadianis learned a bitter lesson by getting involved in politics on their jamaat level in after math of 1971 elections, when they were stabbed by their savior ZAB in 1974.
Your: “As for the proceedings… I don’t see what good those proceedings will do … when the course of action lies elsewhere?”
As why I want proceedings to be made public…. It will tell Pakistanis that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) is INNOCENT BYSTANDER VICTIM. Unfortunately, because of 2nd amendment, Islamic Literature produced by LAM in last 130 years which is as valid today as it was 100 years ago for defense and propagation of Islam in this onslaught on Holy Quran, Rasul Allah SAWS, and Islam (I mean Islam and NOT Muslims). Issue is not that few thousand LAM aka Lahori-Ahmadis be declared Muslim. LAM members do NOT need some certification of a Muslim from Pakistanis who have no regard for Kalma-Tayyaba and are slaughtering each other. Allah SWT knows who is Muslim and who is not. The POOR VICTIM Islam can get help in this global conflict, if Muslims take advantage of literature on Islam produced by LAM. Unfortunately, because of this 2nd amendment, Pakistanis Muslims in particular and general Muslims of the world deprive themselves of this literature PRODUCED IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. And when LAM members with their own efforts take them to non-Muslim perpetrators on VICTIM i.e. Islam, these perpetrators can not refute such presentation of Islam, so they take out old weapon from their arsenal and say, “why should we accept what you guys are saying, when you are not considered Muslim by your own countrymen in Pakistan”. I have witnessed this times and again, especially on hardcore ANTI-ISLAM website run by famous US Jew: www dot jihadwatch dot com
I am confident if LAM literature spreads in the world, peace will come to the world. This is the time of argument and reason. There is hadith, “Masih will argue with Dajjal”. These Dijjali nations need to be argued and invited to Islam, if Pakistanis and Muslims around the world want to live in peace and occupation free from USA, UK and other European countries.
YLH sahib, I hope you got my point. Proceedings of 2nd amendment is nor for few Lahori-Ahmadis (LAM) in almost 2 billion Muslims.
Rashid:
This is where you got it wrong. For some reason, you look to Pakistan as a source and validation of Islam for its spirit and strength. Anyone who can read a few words of Quran from any translation, it does not take long to see the parallels of Judiac nature of the Muslims in Pakistan and the Jews in Chapter – Cow (second chapter) and elsewhere:
2:61. And [remember] when you said: “O Moses, indeed we cannot endure but one kind of food; pray, then, to thy Sustainer that He bring forth for us aught of what grows from the earth – of its herbs, its cucumbers, its garlic, its lentils, its onions.” Said [Moses]: “Would you take a lesser thing in exchange for what is [so much] better? Go back in shame to Egypt, and then you can have what you are asking for!” And so, ignominy and humiliation overshadowed them, and they earned the burden of God’s condemnation: all this, because they persisted in denying the truth of God’s messages and in slaying the prophets against all right: all this, because they rebelled [against God], and persisted in transgressing the bounds of what is right.
–by extension, Pakistani society is unique in not following God’s Messages of economics, good governance, civics, science, public health, etc. etc. and quite apt at slaying such messengers [pun intended]
62:5. THE PARABLE of those who were graced with the burden of the Torah, and thereafter failed to bear this burden, is that of an ass that carries a load of books [but cannot benefit from them]. Calamitous is the parable of people who are bent on giving the lie to God’s messages – for God does not bestow His guidance upon such evildoing folk!
[Translation: Muhammad Asad]
Rashid:
You apparently believe in divine justice and seem at pain for the injustice of Pakistani society. See for yourself in the verse below. Who comes to mind when the moral law comes to its natural conclusion, i.e. for both the ruled and the ruler?
27:82. And when the judgment becomes due against them (-the unjust) We shall bring forth for them a (grossly) materialistic person which will rule over them …
Rashid mian,
Only force that stopped Muslims conversion to Christianity, and subsequent Christian majority, at least in sizeable Muslim population areas, in Indian sub-continent during British Raj was Movement founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib.
To the best of my Eastern Bengal too was a Muslim majority area and there was no influence of MGAQ in that region. But there was no conversion to X-tianity in that region. Your point above seems to be invalid.
Regards
First of all, Qadianis outnumber Lahoris 8 to 1 as far as I know and I am talking about Lahore included.
Secondly the total population of Qadianis as far as I know ranges from 3 to 4 million in Pakistan.
Third- if Qadianis and Lahoris are not willing to ally with the Christians to make Pakistan a better place for all people, what is happening to them will continue to happen indefinitely.
Political alliance does not mean religious concurrence.
@Majumdar sahib:
If i start providing details, my post will become religious, and will violate blog policy.
Suffice to say, you may go to official website of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and see literature produced by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saib and his students, for their discussions, arguments, and publications in defense and superiority of Islam. In India, UK at height of her global power, and other European Christians countries. Check for yourself both Urdu and English collections:
www dot aaiil dot org
@YLH sahib:
“Secondly the total population of Qadianis as far as I know ranges from 3 to 4 million in Pakistan.”
This is just vulgarly exagerated figures, just the way their claim of 200 Million in world. Including 80 million in India. (Wonder howcome another Muslim country for Muslims 160 millions Muslims and 80 million Qadiani-Muslims, has not been carved out of India). If you have time watch their MTA programs or see photos of their annual Jalsah (gathering) in different cities of the world, you will see the same Punjabi faces and hear the same punjabi accent. Simple reason, they all travel from one European country to another for the occasion. Anyways, i won’t say more, else i will be accused of “bashing”.
“Third- if Qadianis and Lahoris are not willing to ally with the Christians to make Pakistan a better place for all people, what is happening to them will continue to happen indefinitely”
I already answered why Qadianis won’t ally with Christians…. as far as Lahoris are concerned they are NOT into politics. They use to vote before 1974 on individual basis. Thou they all supported, like every Indian Muslim, politically and otherwise the independence movement.
No Qadiyanis I know have ever claimed that they are 80 million in India or that they are 200 million world over. The largest single population was in Pakistan till mass conversions in Africa… and India has a handful descendants of the 313 left in Qadiyan to protect their holy places in 1947.
I am not interested in watching MTA etc etc, but I do know that their salana jalsas have a multi-national and multi-cultural feel… and I believe Sierra Leone is has a significantly large Ahmadi population…
Also… if you choose to be non-political don’t complain about 1974.
@YLH sahib:
“No Qadiyanis I know have ever claimed that they are 80 million in India or that they are 200 million world over.”
It is obvious to me that you have not read Qadianis yearly conversion/ population figures on their official websites and their newspapers/ publications, every year doubling, during last 10 years of their 4th Khalifa Mirza Tahir Ahmad.
“Also… if you choose to be non-political don’t complain about 1974.”
Does it mean VICTIM cannot ask for justice?
Cannot complain of injustice?
Does one have to be political to get justice?
Does it mean movement for restoration of judiciary and CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry was in essence for politics?
YLH sahib, I am sorry, I am little disappointed by your comment.
@Rashid
as YLH has explained, parliament has the legal power to do injustice without any other body having oversight over it nor the power to quash an act of parliament. an injustice done by parliament can only be corrected by parliament itself.
but what you forget is that the supremacy that parliament enjoys is on behalf of the people of pakistan and because it is the only state institution that is directly elected by the people. this is the essence of democracy.
you can either join us in the effort to correct the injustice through a political, educational and social struggle… or stick to the two tendencies that i’ve seen evidence of (please go back and re-read your last 12 posts): a) not able to put aside religious and sectarian differences for the common cause of justice, democracy and progress, and b) be so consumed by bitterness and negativity that you name-call and malign 170million people en masse.
you choose.
you yourself claim that the 2nd amendment involved fraud, concealment and perhaps misleading of parliament’s true intent. in any case, the voters had nothing to do with it since the issue came out of the blue and had never been put to the people as any part or even a remote suspicion within ppp’s or any mainstream party’s election manifesto. and these were the parties people voted for. so, unless you’re a defeatist pessimist, why would you not work to educate the poor people of a country that you (probably) grew up in.
My dear Rashid sb,
I have read Qadiyani Jamaat’s literature and I have never come across any such claim from them. However… BBC I believe claimed a figure of 3 million Qadiyani Ahmadis in Pakistan in 2002 elections.
Now… the problem with the Ahmadis is that they don’t want to fight it out politically … because it requires sacrifice. Organize – join forces with Christians and Shias (the groups that Ahmadis dislike) and then mount a challenge on a purely secular basis.
There is no point whining… if you don’t have what it takes to put your money where your mouth is.
You deserve it then.
@BC sahib:
I want to clarify myself.
Your: “a) not able to put aside religious and sectarian differences for the common cause of justice, democracy and progress,”
It is obvious to me that you are NOT aware with Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. LAM presents Islam as NON-sectarian religion. LAM is ONLY bunch of Muslims in ENTIRE Muslim world (which collectively) hold belief that EVERY RECITER of Kalam-Shahada is a MUSLIM, and NO one has right to declare that person as non-Muslim. LAM believes justice, democracy, and progress can ONLY be achieved with rational, tolerant, peaceful, inspiring, non-sectarian understanding of Islam.
I am unable to figure why you think I encourage religious and sectarian differences.
It is true some times I do ‘call spade a spade’, just to let reader know what is the real truth.
Your: “ b) be so consumed by bitterness and negativity that you name-call and malign 170million people en masse”
I do NOT mean to malign 170 million Pakistanis. I am sure you understand if such expression comes out of a pen (keyboard) of VICTIM of injustice in a society. Probably, you are unable to relate to some one whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’ in the country, founded on lofty principles of Islam. Probably, you are unable to relate to people whose ancestors fought and died along with Syed Ahmad Shaheed and Shah Ismail Shaheed at Balakot, and whose ancestors sacrificed and spent time in jails during independence movement for creation of Pakistan. Even Holy Quran permits victims to complain and express his/ her anger.
Your: “so, unless you’re a defeatist pessimist, why would you not work to educate the poor people of a country that you (probably) grew up in.”
Yes, I do want to educate poor people of Pakistan and Muslims in general. This is the reason I am seeking legal help to get proceedings of 2nd amendment get public. Both your, mine and everyone on this forum has the same objective. Only approach is different. As long as goal is same we should support each other. My approach is to bring change in thinking of Pakistanis and Muslims. That change will be lasting and peaceful.
@YLH sahib:
“I have read Qadiyani Jamaat’s literature and I have never come across any such claim from them.”
To me it is obvious you have not read what I have read, and I know Qadianis much more than an outsider like you. I leave it here.
“ However… BBC I believe claimed a figure of 3 million Qadiyani Ahmadis in Pakistan in 2002 elections.”
Who gave this figure to BBC??? Qadianis!!!
“Now… the problem with the Ahmadis is that they don’t want to fight it out politically … because it requires sacrifice. Organize – join forces with Christians and Shias (the groups that Ahmadis dislike) and then mount a challenge on a purely secular basis”
As I said previously, Qadiani group of Ahmadis are still licking wounds of their political activism in 1971.
Lahori Group of Ahmadis always had a different approach. Their focus is different. Their focus is to produce quality literature on Islam that EMPOWERS Muslims like you and everyone of 2 billion to do JIHAD WITH PEN.
BTW: for the record: Lahore group of Ahmadis do NOT dislike Christians and Shias. Please correct yourself. Thank you.
Your: “There is no point whining… if you don’t have what it takes to put your money where your mouth is.”
I am ready to put MONEY, if you can help me find some Supreme Court attorney who can move PSC to get 2nd amendment proceedings published by GOP.
Your: “You deserve it then”
YLH bahi, this is not nice.
Rashid sb
i don’t care whether you belong to LAM, MEEM or NOON… let alone your claim that they’re better than everyone else who, themselves, are better than the rest.
whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’
lets deal with that first. challenge the laws (relevant sections of the penal code etc) first… leave the constitution till later. isn’t that a rational and practical approach to take
…. suppose the proceedings were declassified by the GoP. then what? what would be your argument? why is that argument not possible without the transcripts?
that’s a legitimate first question any attorney would ask you at the outset. so lets have the answer.
@BC sahib:
“i don’t care whether you belong to LAM,… let alone your claim that they’re better than everyone else who, themselves, are better than the rest.”
I don’t know how you came to the conclusion LAM is better than rest?
Personally, I do consider any person who respects other persons a better person.
And it is a recorded fact that LAM consider all reciters of Kalma-Shahada as Muslim.
“whose daily life is a ‘criminal act’
lets deal with that first. challenge the laws (relevant sections of the penal code etc) first… leave the constitution till later. isn’t that a rational and practical approach to take”
It s true. If any Ahmadi be it a from Lahori or Qadiani group, says Salam Alikum (Muslim salutation) in morning, also used by Hindus, Christians, and Siks in Pakistan, is a Criminal Act. Calling place of their Islamic worship a Mosque is a Crime. If some one hears Ahmadi giving Call for Prayer (Azan) is Crime. If some one sees Ahmadi offering prayer (Namaz/ Salat) is a Crime. For Ahmadi going for Hajj is crime. This in fact is worse than day of Sikh rulers Ranjeet Singh. In his time mosques were uses as stables and Muslims were not allowed to give call for prayer (Azan).
Unfortunately, all Penal Laws to prosecute these “Criminal Offences” are protected 2nd amendment.
@Bloody Civilian
October 28, 2009 at 2:31 am
“suppose the proceedings were declassified by the GoP. then what? what would be your argument? why is that argument not possible without the transcripts?
that’s a legitimate first question any attorney would ask you at the outset. so lets have the answer.”
Brother BC:
You don’t know what I know. I know what actually happened in Pakistan National Assembly in 1974. LAM representative was my uncle. LAM representative team was staying in my parent’s home at few minutes walk from Old National Assembly Hall, next to Pakistan State Bank Head Quarters, Islamabad. I know even what actually happened inside the Cabinet Meetings of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. ZAB Minister, Malik Jaffar Khan, MNA from Attock, a former Qadiani, who had upto high school education in Qadian, friend of my Uncle, whom I have met in my home, gave daily reports of what was going on in ZAB cabinet meetings, how Mufti Mahmud (father of Fazul Rehman) impressed upon ZAB to also declare LAM a non-Muslim, ZAB was NOT initially willing to do that, but when he came to know LAM members are only few thousand he changed his mind. You may not know decision was already made in ZAB cabinet even when trial had NOT ended. Qadiani’s representative their Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad was still being grilled by Yaya Bakhtiar. LAM representative was the first to testify on first day, and couple of hours on 2nd day. Qadiani representative was grilled for FEW DAYS.
If 2nd amendment proceedings become public, people can bring it up on media and there is chance to redress at least LAM.
CORRECTION:
Rashid
October 28, 2009 at 4:06 am @BC sahib:
I don’t know how you came to the conclusion LAM is better than rest?
IT SHOULD BE:
I don’t know how you came to the conclusion, THAT I CLAIM, LAM is better than the rest?
Thanks.
WHERE IN THE WORLD ARE Kashif, Dr Jawwad Khan and other dudes of Jamaat-Islami???
I hope readers have noticed “owners of Islam” like of Kashif and Dr Jawwad Khan sahibans are NOWHERE to be seen to on NEUTRAL FORUM to defend 2nd Constitutional amendment to Pakistan’s 1973 Constitution. Their visible absence supports thesis that they will only speak and give their arguments where they have PHYSICAL MAJORITY and they can INTIMIDATE the opponent. This supports the notion that their arguments are hollow and superficial. I wonder if this is the case then how they will invite the intellectuals in Dajjali Nations.
Rashid: “Even Holy Quran permits victims to complain and express his/ her anger.”
Fatwas and its likes e.g 2nd amendment are most frequently used to spew venom and hate at their victims. There is no room for such attacks in Quran. The target of a fatwa, on the other hand, is protected to speak up against such hate-mongerers:
4:148. Allâh does not like the public utterance of the hurtful speech, except (it is by) one who has been done injustice to. And Allâh is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
16:116. And do not say because of the lies which your tongues utter, `This is lawful and that is unlawful,’ lest you should forge a lie against Allâh. Those who forge lies against Allâh will never attain the goal.
16:117. (Though in forging lies) they may enjoy themselves for a brief spell in this life, yet a grievous punishment awaits them (in the Hereafter).
Moral laws are omnipresent and shutting eyes to lessons of history is ignorance, even in the name of a secular forum.
By quoting verses, I am not challenging the secular nature of this post, but only providing evidence from original sources which were used to begin with in formulation of the 2nd amendment.
Rashid
there is chance to redress at least LAM
i believe your forsaking principle for a legal technicality will be disastrous. esp, when the redress is not available through the court (it does not have the power) but must be through parliament.
you’re not protesting against being a victim of discrimination but one of mistaken identity. your objection is not to discrimination but that the perpetrators were not discriminating enough.
to me this is a hopeless stand to take, to say the least. it can only serve to strengthen the disease (ie the state interfering in matters of faith) rather than treating it. i’m interested in the latter.
i can only ignore discriminatory generalizations like: LAM is ONLY bunch of Muslims in ENTIRE Muslim world and reciters of Kalma-Shahada are required to be MUCH MORE TOLERANT, PEACEFUL, LOVING than non-reciters!!
i don’t know and am not interested in what you mean by “Islamic ideology of Pakistan” or her being a ‘land for kalma reciters’. i know there is an idea of pakistan. and it is strong. but it has nothing to do with ideology… of any kind. the idea is no more or less than 170million pakistanis and their entirely human needs and rights. a good articulation of the idea is jinnah’s speech of 11 august 1947. far too many of your statements and ideas go against that articulation of very simple principles and threaten what it stands for.
Jay
but only providing evidence from original sources which were used to begin with in formulation of the 2nd amendment
and as long as you keep doing that the mullah shall remain empowered and justified in claiming supremacy over all else.
That’s exactly the point. Mullah selectively uses the source of his religion to suit its needs and nurture the polemic that it thrives on. And rest of us “dare not” go near the “holy book”. Just that he can recite a foreign language, he creates a moral monopoly for himself and creates a facade of psuedo piety.
Intellectual arguments against Mullah are both secular and religious. Its just that no one takes them up.
i’m only concerned with human and fundamental rights. other than that as long as we have democracy and rule of law (ie supremacy of parliament and independence of judiciary), i don’t mind what debates, arguments and conclusions take place. my opinion will just be one of many and i’ll be happy to accept the verdict of the majority subject to the non-negotiables i’ve already mentioned above.
Mullah selectively uses the source of his religion to suit its needs and nurture the polemic that it thrives on
if he is – and he obviously is – driven by his own vested interest, then why would he listen to even the most elegant argument? you’re relying on people’s honesty,, whereas i insist on a bare minimum non-negotiable set of rights and freedoms when it comes to public law…. which are (or ought to be) universal. i for one am not prepared to allow these to be struck down by a mere interpretation of a particular text. i’d rather base my argument on the universality of these freedoms and rights. if a domestic majority has moral force behind it to the extent of it being a majority, then a global majority should have even more of the same. and once the rights/issues are no longer about the very core of human nature and instincts… i’d happily give way to the domestic, local, specific and even peculiar (my pov being just another pov).
@Bloody Civilian
October 28, 2009 at 6:33 pm
“you’re not protesting against being a victim of discrimination but one of mistaken identity. your objection is not to discrimination but that the perpetrators were not discriminating enough”
No. I am protesting against both ‘being a victim of discrimination’ AND ‘one of mistaken identity’. It will be great if LAM get relief for both. It is true that like rest of schools of thought (except LAM which in fact is just a movement/ organization with focus on presenting Islam to the Western world), Qadiani Jamaat is GUILTY of discrimination. Unfortunately, LAM is discriminated by Qadiani Jamaat and rest of schools of thought in Pakistan. LAM in first place is discriminated because of reasons and environment created by Qadiani Jamaat. On YouTube there is 3 parts speech of Mufti Mahmud (leader of opposition and religious parties in 1974 Parliament). Right or wrong he provides Qadiani Jamaat beliefs as cause of 2nd amendment. Nowhere he has raised any objection on LAM beliefs. Check youtube: Mufti Mahmud – Declaration of Ahmadis as Non-Muslim (1 of 3)
BC I think you are also taking discriminatory stand. You don’t want LAM to get redress and justice, unless it supports the Qadiani Jamaat, which discriminated LAM, and because of its practices LAM suffered.
“to me this is a hopeless stand to take, to say the least. it can only serve to strengthen the disease (ie the state interfering in matters of faith) rather than treating it. i’m interested in the latter”
May be you are having lofty goals. I am asking for the bare minimum. I don’t think Pakistani Nation has moral strength to deliver what you are asking. At least in the foresee able future.
Rashid
You can either take the proper way, or a shortcut.. not both. there is no “AND” about it.
similarly, either i too am discriminating against you… or i’ve “lofty goals”. can’t be both.
make up your mind.
@ Jay:
I wanted to remind you that for one moral argument you pick out of Quran or Sunnah, the right wing will read like a parrot their made to order justification of every discrimination they will perpetrate in the name of religion.
However I believe Bloody Civilian’s pithy rejoinder is quite sufficient here. And this is why I firmly believe that our efforts to find a “right” balance of Islam in Pakistan is going to lead us nowhere.
However I wanted to appreciate the quotes of Syed Abu-ala-Moudoudi that you have mentioned in your previous replies. They show how parochial and narrow minded the mindset of this ideology has always been. Care to do some more research and convert it into a full write up here on PTH? Trust me, it will be eagerly followed.
Regards,
Adnan
@ Jay
Do u have online refrences for your quotes? Could give a link? I have used ur references here
http://rupeenews.com/2010/07/18/awami-league-bans-maududis-tafsir-ul-quran-removes-religious-books-from-23000-state-libraries/
I had come across two books Bahisti Zewar and Ghuniyatul Talibeen in young age. It was so disgusting and against human nature that i used to think how can women just be “objects of sexual gratification and mute maids” only. Why they have to go against their own likes\dislikes and comfort.