Pak Tea House » Pakistan » I Never Really Cared For The Ahmadis…
I Never Really Cared For The Ahmadis…
By Fasi Zaka (Courtesy Express Tribune)
I have never really been vocal about rights for Ahmadis, even privately, but my compassion trigger is easily pulled if there are atrocities against Pakistani Hindus and Christians. Part of this can be ascribed to my belief in the prejudice that the Ahmadis are a relatively well-off community, making the Christians and Hindus of Pakistan uniquely guilty of a double crime, first for not being Muslims and second for being poor. These two communities seem especially vulnerable.
I have changed my mind. And it’s not because of the attack in Lahore that killed so many Ahmadis. The whole country, Muslim and non-Muslim, is under attack by the Taliban.
What really helped me see the inhuman treatment of the Ahmadis in Pakistan is the absence of condemnation for it. Nawaz Sharif in his condolence message said Ahmadis were our brothers; it’s been enough to get the Pakistani religious world on his case. While sympathy is not outlawed for Ahmadis, it may as well be.
Those of us with a passport have declared that “I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be an impostor prophet and an infidel and also consider his followers, whether belonging to the Lahori, Qadiani or Mirzai groups, to be non-Muslims.” Most of us do not believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was a prophet, but do we have to rub it in? Imagine if the UK put in that sort of column for a prophet of another faith.
We have declared not just that we don’t believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but added the connotation that he was an imposter. People who follow imposters must be crooks, right? Let’s stop the pretence that they are equal, or human.
But no, we are a peaceful people, right? Of course we are. I read a very poignant anecdote in columnist Mosharraf Zaidi’s article recently; he described how an old friend would never say salaam to him in return. His friend is an Ahmadi, he can go to jail for that. I cringe when I see Pakistanis stumbling over one another to felicitate a white westerner who chooses to say salaam when greeting us in our country. Why not put him in jail too? He could be an atheist, whereas at least the Ahmadis believe in the oneness of God.
But, you see it’s not about that. Ahmadis are a secretive people up to no good. They won’t even tell you they are Ahmadis. But who wouldn’t be secretive if they could go to jail for saying they are Muslim, or responding in kind to a salutation of salaam. Or for that matter having a Quran in their home, the same kind you and I have.
Sunnis don’t believe in the imam of the Shias. What about Barelvis and Bohris? Its time their special treatment ended. If anything we have been too moderate. We need to cut diplomatic relations with Indonesia because they refuse to declare Ahmadis non-Muslim as it may open a Pandora’s Box of declaring other groups the same. Why is the amir of the Jamaat-i-Islami, Munawar Hassan, silent on this? He could address this diplomatic issue, after all he did want to cut off diplomatic relations with many countries over the Facebook fiasco.
Pakistani Ahmadis aren’t allowed to go for Hajj, but Ahmadis from other countries are. Maybe we should cut off relations with Saudi Arabia too. Also, since we Muslims believe in equality, I would suggest all non-Muslim countries make it mandatory that we wear special collars to identify us as Muslim when we visit. Or is that going too far since we haven’t, obviously, in the case of the Ahmadis?
The truth is the bulk of this country doesn’t like Ahmadis. They are Pakistan’s Palestinians. Their humane treatment and acceptance
will decide whether we are a people who can move forward in the future, or if we will become a fragmented warlord state divided on sectarian lines.
And yes, Ahmadis are worse off in Pakistan than Christians and Hindus. We want to forcibly convert Christians and Hindus. But Ahmadis shouldn’t exist. Period.
Published in the Express Tribune, June 15th, 2010.
Filed under: Pakistan
117 Responses to "I Never Really Cared For The Ahmadis…"
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“every sect considers every other sect non-Muslim”
–JUST LIKE DOGS BARKING AT EACH OTHER IN A STREET.
“but that the state doesn’t have any locus standi determining it.”–WELL SAID.
@ keeping honest.
KH, you wrote: “If someone insults your father and mother, i’m sure you will like to beat the shiit out of him. Howcome you don’t understand if other get angry with Qadianis when they feel their beloved prophet Muhammad pbuh, his family, and companions are insulted by Qadianis?”
Firstly, as a moral human being with a respect for the law, I would not beat a person for insulting my father and mother. The Holy Qur’an forbids that I should beat a person for insulting a person. Prophet Muhammad (saw) on many occasions forbade his sahaba from beating people who insulted him. The people who beat others, they are not obeying the Holy Qur’an or the Holy Prophet (saw), they are simply animals who have no control over their own ego and anger. I believe that you also have very little control over your ego and anger. May Allah (swt) help you in this regard.
Secondly, and very importantly, you have suggested that Ahmadis insult the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) and his family and his companions. This is a false accusation, I deny it absolutely. I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad (saw) is His messenger, he is the elect and supreme prophet, the pride of the prophets, the light of humankind, the pearl and the jewel and the sun and the moon and all the stars together cannot match his spiritual beauty. His sahaba were the best of sahaba granted to any prophet, his family such as Khadija, Fatima, Ali, Hasan and Hussain were the best family to have ever graced this earth. This is my belief. Ahmadi Muslims have died because they have held fast to this belief and refused to accept that they are not Muslims, whereas the belief of most other Muslims has not been tested in this way. Have you cut open my heart, that you tell me my belief and you tell me what is in my heart?
Keeping Dishonest is a crook. No point discussing anything with him.
*** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***
@ Y L H
You seem open-minded. If you want to hear an intellectually brilliant and insightful response from the Fourth Caliph to the question, “Do Ahmadis think non-Ahmadis are Muslims?”, then please go to the following link:
1. Google, “AskIslam”, and go to that website.
2. Click on “Religions and Beliefs” at the top of the page.
3. Click on “Islam”.
4. Click on “Sects”.
5. Click on “Question 263″.
You can make up your own mind, but personally I think the Fourth Caliph’s response is genius.
@Keeping Honest (June 20, 2010 at 8:42 am)
“…..Sawal Gandum. Jawab Channa! Cat is jumping out of the bag. Rather, inside the bag…..”
Regrettably, inspite of deep reflection on your idiotically, I mean idiomatically rich expression, its link to the question/answer between YLH and my humble self could not be found. Similarly, the gundum/chana or cat/bag relationship too, was conspicuous by its absence.
Now to help you out, YLH’s question was based on the assumption that non-Ahmadi imams were eager to have Ahmadis praying behind them as muqtadis, and that Ahmadis were equally eager to pray behind non-Ahmadi imams.
What I simply pointed out was that since this utter lack of eagerness is mutual, why worry about it.
@ Bin Ismail
I think the case for the prosecution and the case for the defense has been duly presented to the PTH Courtroom. It’s probably not useful to respond further to KH’s diatribe. Hopefully the fair-minded and intelligent people on this blog will make an appropriate decision on the merits of his/her case.
This video says it all…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yMSVZ9jFRE&NR=1
The ignorance demonstrated in the videos posted above, “Farm Boy on June18″ and “Farhat on June21″, was foretold in the the following hadith.
Ali RA relates that the Holy Prophet SAW said:
A time will come when nothing will remain of Islam except its name and nothing will remain of Quran except its script. Mosques will be full of worshipers but as far as righteousness is concerned they will be empty and deserted. Their ulema will be the worst of the creatures under the canopy of heavens. Evil plots will originate from them and to them they will return.” (Mishkat)
May Allah save us from the evil of these ignorant, so called ulema. These losers forget that Allah SWT is sufficient as the protector of the mantle of the Khatum-un-nabeeyeen and Rahmat-ullilalameen.
Islam is a simple, beautiful message of peace and a way of life that is in tune with the natural laws. Shukr, Alhamdolillah we choose to follow the Islam that was taught and practiced by the Khatum-un-nabeeyeen, Rahmat-ullilallmeen, Mohammad Mustafa SAW. It does not matter whether or not you care for us. It you don’t, it is your loss. Our hope, aspiration, and strife are that Allah SWT cares for us and is pleased with us!
May Allah SWT be our protector and our shield against ignorance, hatred, and evil. Mah He be pleased with us. Ameen. Insh’Allah.
Salaam.
@Moosa
You are right I have not read the entire corpus of literature by the Qadiani Ahmadi Caliphs. At the same time I doubt you have read the entire corpus of literature by the Lahori Ahmadi elders. I say this because you have presented a distorted version of history to paint the Lahori Ahmadis in a negative light with regard to why the split took place in the movement. I am not doubting your intent, but simply your knowledge. But more on this later…
First thing to make clear is that based on the writings of one (probably) anonymous individual, you have declared ..”Not only this, but rather than offer condolences to the Ahmadis who were martyred recently, again they have sought to blame everything on the Ahmadi Caliphs. For any fair-minded person, this behaviour makes it clear that the Lahori community have become blinded..”
Nothing can be further from the truth. The LAM immediately issued a press release not only unequivocally condemning this massacre, but also publicly saying that:
“We pray that may Allah enter all the martyrs in Paradise and may they be among the successful ones. We sympathise with the families who have lost their near and dear ones.
We, the members of Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat-i Islam Lahore (Lahori Ahmadis), stand with Jamaat-e Rabwah in this time of trial and pray that may Allah keep them safe for all times to come.”
Furthermore as some families are divided between the Qadiani and Lahori sections, the loss of loved ones was also felt by some Lahori Ahmadis. I can confidently state that the general reaction of the Lahori Ahmadis has been one of utter horror and disgust at this dastardly act and the overwhelming feelings towards the Qadiani Ahmadis have been of genuine and heartfelt sympathy. My point is just to dispel the general impression about Lahori Ahmadis that may be created by Moosa’s post which in itself is, I think, based on the posts of one individual on the net.
As far as the Qadiani version of the split is concerned, let me just state here the Lahori version. I am using the words “version” here to drive home first the point that are “versions” here, and nothing I or Moosa, or anyone else for that matter, may say should be taken at face value. So the Lahori version in short is:
A certain group led by the founder’s son distorted the teachings of HMGA by proclaiming Mirza Sahib as a prophet and saying that a belief in HMGA is required to be a Muslim. They also claimed that a certain verse of the Quran mentioning the name “Ahmed” is referring to HMGA. This group after the demise of the first Caliph, attracted the following of the vast majority of the Ahmadis. Certain highly respected scholars of the Ahmadi Jammat, differed over all these three points and asserted that HMGA by his writings denied being a prophet and was a religious reformer (metaphorically called a prophet) and that a belief in HMGA is not required to be a Muslim and the said Quranic verse is referring to the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) and not HMGA. Based upon these differences this group split away from the majority and founded the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.
As for Moosa’s comment “problem was that Muhammad Ali couldn’t justify his decision as himself not accepting the leader who was preferred by the huge majority of the Ahmadi Community, because this would suggest he simply wanted to be the leader himself and could not bring himself to accept a young inexperienced man as his leader. Therefore suddenly, after the Qadiani/Lahori split, he and the Lahoris sought to: 1) develop, highlight and accentuate some religious differences between the two communities, and use those differences to justify the split, 2) bring into disreputr…..”
I would just like to point out that the religious differences (as mentioned above) did not happen “suddenly after the Qadiani/Lahori split,” but were actually present before the split in 1914 and this can be verified. It is true that the Lahori Jamaat is governed by an elected committee.
Moosa also said: “the Lahoris are angry, they are literally biting their fingers with anger. Why? The reason is that for over 80 years they have compromised their beliefs for the sake of acceptance by the Muslims of Pakistan…..Pakistan. But the most awful thing they did, was that they sought to vilify the Qadiani community in order to make other Muslims think that Lahoris were “good Muslims”. This is why the Lahoris bang on about, “The Qadianis believe he’s a prophet but we believe he was only a spiritual reformer, so please continue to say they’re not Muslims, but please we beg you, we beg you, we beg you to accept our Islam”. But what is causing them so much pain, is that after all these efforts on their part, after compromising to the extent of becoming ethically bankrupt, they are still not accepted by the Pakistani Government as”
The mocking and insulting tone of these words aside, let’s just note the following points:
1 – Moosa has basically questioned the intent of the Lahori Ahmadis, saying that they wanted to be accepted by the Muslims of Pakistan. I am sure saying Pakistan was an honest mistake as the religious differences started after 1908. In any case, if it was acceptance by Muslims in general what was desired, then all that the Lahori Ahmadis had to do was to renounce their beliefs altogether. They would have been garlanded with flowers and no doubt reaped immense material benefits as well. Also please note bitter opposition to HMGA and his followers, including fatwas of Kufr, was present long before 1914 (year of the split) and also before the time Qadiani Ahmadi elders started to use the word Kafir for Muslims. In fact severe opposition was even present at the time HMGA was vehemently denying any claim to Prophethood. My point simply being that it could not have been the motivation by the Lahori Ahmadis to be accepted by the Muslims by splitting from Qadian; because the Lahoris have always continued to hold the same basic beliefs of HMGA that earned HMGA severe opposition and criticism from the Mullahs. The Lahori stand has always been and always will be based on what we feel to be the correct teachings of HMGA in the light of his own writings and the Hoy Quran. Just like the Qadiani Jammat, the Lahoris have, on account of their beliefs, been severely persecuted since long before 1974 and Zia happened; and not once have the Lahori Ahmadis budged an inched from their principled stand since 1914.
2 – As for Moosa asserting that the Lahoris sought to “vilify the Qadiani community” and that they have “begged” to keep Qadianis as non-Muslims, please provide some references to show if in fact this is what the Lahori Ahmadiyya Movement has been doing since 1914. Otherwise what you are saying is in fact itself a “vilification” of the Lahoris and moreover certain things you have said in your post could be construed to lay a similar charge against the Qadiani Ahmadis. There are differences of opinion between the Qadiani and Lahori Jammats agreed, but how do you come to the conclusion that the Lahori Jammat is “ethically bankrupt.” If it is on account of difference of opinion then we can say the same thing about the Qadiani Jammat. If it is on account of alleged “vilification” of the Qadiani Jammat and “begging” non-Ahmadis to call them non-Muslims, then let us see some evidence. And I mean something beyond the diatribe of Mr. keeping honest / m ali 3 / etc.
3 – This is not to say that the Lahori Ahmadis do not make it a point to differentiate themselves from the Qadiani Ahmadis. They certainly do, and do it simply because most people are not aware of the fundamental differences between the two groups and more often than not assume that some Qadiani Ahmadi beliefs are shared by the Lahoris which is not the case. More importantly we also think it is important that people should know that the attribution of prophethood to HMGA is not something which HMGA himself proclaimed, and there exist followers of HMGA who interpret his writings and claims differently from the Qadiani Ahmadis. To this extent we have no hesitation in saying that the Qadiani Ahmadi leaders have distorted the teachings of HMGA; and this is not vilification but simply calling a spade a spade. Keep in mind that the Lahore Ahmadiyya complaint against the Qadiani Caliphs, right or wrong, is at least based on some published, written evidence, correct or in correct, while the current accusation against the Lahori Ahmadis is focused on the assumed intent of the Lahoris rather than the multitude of literature they have published, clearly stating their position and reasoning.
I do apologise for this long piece, but felt it necessary to clear the name of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement that was being brought into disrepute.
@OMLK (June 21, 2010 at 5:29 pm)
The manner in which participants such as “a muslim”, “m ali(1-3)” and more lately “keeping honest” did, I’m sorry to say reflect rather poorly on the civility of a community that attributes itself to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian.
The events that led to these current discussions were tragic. Whatever the depth of anyone’s rancour, simple decency would have called for abstention from doctrinal and personal tirades. This is precisely why I had earlier written to “a muslim” that had Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamaluddin been alive today and witnessed the comments of “a muslim”, who was supposedly representing LAM, they would have most certainly felt disgusted. There is an occasion for everything, and this certainly was not the occasion for saying whatever was said by some interlocutors who at least presented themselves as Lahori Ahmadis.
Moosa or anybody else or my humble self would feel honoured to defend what we deem as the truth. Ahmadis are a community who have served their faith not by taking the lives of others but by laying down their own. With patience, decency, civility and gentlemanliness, they will defend their doctrine, their Imams and the honour of their Jamaat.
Around 90 innocent and strictly law-abiding Ahmadi citizens of Pakistan were massacred in a single day, as they knelt and submitted themselves before their Lord. A gentleman would never choose to capitalize on the opportunity born out of such a situation, merely to fulfill an unfulfilled desire of expressing old grudges.
The discussion that this situation calls for, is not on the doctrinal differences between the two communities. What we need to discuss, as Pakistanis, is how to rescue Pakistan from a situation that clearly spells doom.
Erratum: [1st para of previous post]
“The manner in which participants such as “a muslim”, “m ali(1-3)” and more lately “keeping honest” [spoke] did, I’m sorry to say, reflect rather poorly on the civility of a community that attributes itself to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian.”
Sorry for the typo error.
@ OMLK
I take it that you’re a Lahori Ahmadi? This much was not evident to me hitherto. I commend your civility and encourage you to impart it to your brothers.
I’m glad to hear that the official statement of the Lahori Ahmadis is to express condolences. The offical statement of the entire Pakistani political establishment is also to express condolences. This is very commendable.
I’m also sad to hear you speak of the “mocking and insulting tone” of my message. I felt that I was responding very gently to extremely provocative and insulting messages from your Lahori brothers on this blog. But if you feel that my tone was not proportionate to the offensiveness of your Lahori brothers, and you felt his messages were not far more “mocking and insulting”, then you have a right to your opinion.
My opinion of the Lahori Jamaat is not formed from the writings of their elders, I’ve read only two books by Muhammad Ali sahib (ra) and I found them intellectual and “clever”. But my opinion of a Movement is not formed from the written words of one of their elders, beautiful writings can be found in every religious movement. My opinion is based on the fruits which I taste, the evidence and the practical behaviour which I see before me. It’s heartening to see that the Lahori Jamaat has expressed condolences, but I’ve rarely seen a more vitriolic and offensive attack on ‘Qadiani’ Ahmadis than what I’ve seen on this blog from two Lahori Ahmadis. Where did they learn this from? Why are they behaving in this way? Actions speak louder than words. There is obviously a deep-rooted hatred, and I wonder at what stage in their training and education these two Lahori Ahmadis acquire this hatred of Qadiani Ahmadis? Certainly it was not provoked by anything either myself or any Ahmadi here said. They offended first, we responded to their provocation, our response was entirely proportional and in fact a lot more civil than their offense.
Regarding principles, my opinion is the same. This isn’t the place for prolonged religious argumentation, but briefly Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) clearly wrote he was a “zilli nabi” and a “boruzi nabi”. He also claimed he fulfilled the prophecy of the re-advent of Isa bin Maryam (as) and Sahih Muslim says that Isa bin Maryam (as) will be “nabi” when he returns. Now the Qadiani Ahmadis say a “zilli nabi” is a type of nabi who has borrowed his nabuwwat from obedience to Prophet Muhammad (saw). But the Lahori Ahmadis say “No, zilli nabi is not any type of nabi, it’s purely metaphorical, it doesn’t mean ‘nabi’ in any way whatsoever”. But the question is: what does this metaphor mean? If a “zilli nabi” isn’t a type of nabi, then why use the words “zilli nabi”? For me, it is intellectually dishonest to emphasise the “zilli” over the “nabi” to the extent that the “nabi” disappears. The only reasonable explanation that comes to my mind is that Lahori Ahmadis didn’t like to say that he was a nabi, because (A) nabuwwat tends to lead to khilafat, (B) they were hoping (wrongly, it turned out) that opposition would lessen if they emphasised the “zilli” over the “nabi”, to the extent that the “nabi” disappeared. For me, there is no meaningful theological difference between the Lahori and Qadiani Ahmadis: both accept that Ghulam Ahmad (as) was a “zilli nabi”, which means that in some sense he was a nabi. Both accept that he was the Imam Mahdi and that Prophet Muhammad (saw) commanded all Muslims must pledge allegiance to the Imam Mahdi, hence a Muslim who doesn’t do this is disobeying Prophet Muhammad (saw). The principal differences seem political, and my personal opinion is that the motivation for the split was mainly political. This is my opinion, you have the right to your own opinion.
I won’t be posting here for a couple of weeks now, I have a difficult professional exam to prepare.
Peace,
Moosa
CALLING SPADE A SPADE
BI writes:
“The manner in which participants such as “a muslim”, “m ali(1-3)” and more lately “keeping honest” did, I’m sorry to say reflect rather poorly on the civility of a community that attributes itself to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. ”
Guys, do you want me to post words used by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib in his writings and even Allah SWT has used much stronger words in Holy Quran while calling Spade a Spade.
HMGA said: calling thief a thief is NOT using profanity.
PAKISTANI POLITICIAN MR. SHER AFGHAN
Moosa writes:
“If a “zilli nabi” isn’t a type of nabi, then why use the words “zilli nabi”? For me, it is intellectually dishonest to emphasise the “zilli” over the “nabi” to the extent that the “nabi” disappears.”
What Moosa is saying is tantamount to asking, Why Mr. Sher Afghan calls himself ‘Sher’ (a lion belonging Felidae family) when he does not have a tail???
Moosa good question!!!!
@ Moosa
Thanks for appreciating my civility; however I am not in a position to impart it to my brothers as I have learnt it from them.
I am rather disappointed to see you have chosen to degrade the condolence message from the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement to the level of one from the politicians, and at the same time chosen to ignore the genuine feelings of the Lahori community that I attempted to describe. I do not think that any politician would have used the status of “martyrs” or “shaheeds” to honour the victims (for obvious reasons) and prayed for their high station in paradise as the Lahori Ahmadis have done. It appears you like to cast doubt on the intent of the Lahori Ahmadis. Perhaps this is inadvertent, but regardless, let us leave the misgivings aside for a moment, and let the genuine prayers and sympathy expressed by the Lahori Ahmadi community towards the victims, families and the Rabwah Jammat be taken in their true spirit.
I described your words as “mocking and insulting” because of your choice of words and language such as describing the Lahore Ahmadi community as “ethically bankrupt” and “begging” the non-Ahmadi Muslims. If this was in response to the choice of words and timing by the one individual called keeping-honest/m ali3/etc. (whom you have chosen to call my “Lahori brother”), then even if you chose to stoop low to answer this individual, it was not correct to trash the entire Lahore Ahmadiyya community on this account. In fact I never took exception to whatever you and others have had to say to this person on this forum, but when I saw that some totally in-correct and insulting statements were being directed towards the Lahori Jammat in general, I felt it necessary to defend the community in my personal capacity (Just like you have defended your caliphs and your community.)
You have suggested that the person whose objectionable posts have sparked this discussion, suffers from a deep rooted hatred towards the Qadiani Ahmadis which has been taught to him, possibly even was part of his education. Now, I don’t know who told you that the Lahori Ahmadis are taught to hate Qadiani Ahmadis. If this no small charge is based simply on the posts on this forum, then all I can ask of you is to reconsider your opinion based on something more solid. If it based on the anti-Lahori second-hand sources you originally mentioned, then I can only tell you that the sources are mis-leading you. In fact it appears you have been pre-disposed to see us in a negative light by some sources, and I can only hope this is not a wide spread practice in the Qadiani Jammat. Unfortunately your pre-disposition was “confirmed” by one anonymous individual and hence your attack on the Lahori community in general.
We have our difference on religious matter yes, but never has the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement ever “hated” or acted against the Qadiani Ahmadis in any way. As I said before if you have valid reasons to believe otherwise then share them with us. In fact on a community level the Lahori Ahmadis often interact with Qadiani Ahmadis as friends, relatives, co-workers etc., and as far as I can tell the relations have always been cordial, respectful and even I would say at times affectionate given our mutual background. At the same it is a matter of record that the Lahori Ahmadis have been severely victimized and persecuted since 1914, but have patiently and steadfastly stood by their original, clear and consistent stand. Anything else is your opinion.
This is not to deny the fundamental difference in certain beliefs between the Lahori and Qadiani Ahmadis. However, I fear that the Qadiani Jammat practice of ignoring the actual differences and focusing instead on the intent and motive of the Lahore scholars who dared to differ with HMGA’s on ideological grounds, has in fact sown a seed of distrust. I think instead of making it a political issue, which it is not, it is better to focus on the actual arguments presented by the Lahore Jamaat over why they chose to split. This is the civilized way to argue, focus on the issue itself, and not on the honesty or the lack thereof of the other party.
You are right this is perhaps not the forum to discuss the issue of zilli verses actual prophethood and what the Quran, The Prophet (SAWS) and HMGA had to say on the matter. Suffice it to say we differ on this account. I will, however, still check the sources you gave me earlier on the “Kufr” issue and would still like to engage to clarify matters. In the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement we have always been encouraged against blind following of any one, so I have no hesitation in testing what I know and believe with what you can tell me; with the Quran, The Prophet (SAWS) and HMGA being the judging criteria (in that order).
The hypocrites, so-called muslims, need to clean their own stinking house before ranting and raving against the evils of others.
If you have a grain of righteousness in you, then learn from an Israeli mother .. you shameless, holier-than-thou, trigger-happy, followers of ignorant mullahs.
http://www.mwlusa.org/news/israeli_mother.htm
This is how to call a spade a spade!
@Straight Shooter:
PAKISTANI POLITICIAN MR. SHER AFGHAN
“What Moosa is saying is tantamount to asking, Why Mr. Sher Afghan calls himself ‘Sher’ (a lion belonging Felidae family) when he does not have a tail???”
I never knew if “Nabi” was part of the name of HMGA!