Pak Tea House » India, Pakistan » Was Gandhi Secular ?
Was Gandhi Secular ?
Shahran Asim’s contribution for PTH
I know in our Pakistan Studies we have always read that Mahatma Gandhi was not secular and he did ‘nt want Muslim minority to have their share in the post partition scenario. When I raised these questions, someone suggested me to listen to his speeches which have been posted by an organization called Gandhi Server Foundation (www.gandhiserve.org). It is a great historical resource of information related to Mahatma Gandhi, contains his audio library , his letters to Quaid-e-Azam, Nehru and others, etc.
I have selected this speech which was addressed to Hindus but is is mostly related to create peace and harmony among the Hindus and Muslims. Please listen to Gandhi on Muslims, start from 3 mins and I would suggest to
listen it completely. How he praised the contribution of Muslims to India, Urdu, etc.
Link one: Date 10-15-1947 Delhi
Link two: Date 10-27-1947 Calcutta
Listen to this and start from 14th minute Gandhi on Quaid-e-Azam.
162 Responses to "Was Gandhi Secular ?"
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Krishanan get out of your victim mentality and grow up (start by stop reading Nietcheze’s fascistic rubbish):
””’hindu violence (the defender’s violence) with muslim violence (the aggressor’s violence) also”””
How childish…….., as if Hindu violence used in whatever context is always defensive, what a joke.
J. Krishnan:”If it has to be enforced then it is going to end up creating many hypocrisies and subtle and not-so-subtle subversions.”
Well, that is your opinion, and not supported by facts, such as the existence of societies that have a high level of development precisely by enforcing that ideal.
If there is no push to create an environment of equality, there will be no such thing, which is a simple and powerful reason to not pretend that nation states should not work towards the ideal of equality of man. Such things are self-fulfilling prophecies — if a country does not consciously work towards such an ideal, then the ideal will not be achieved.
As an aside, One view is that a “Developed country” is a state of mind that arises from believing in the construct of “equality of man” at the individual level. Countries that are not smart enough to realize the power of peaceful cooperation are disparagingly termed as “developing countries”. it is not a matter of money and wealth, but mindset. A country gets developed when citizens realize and internalize that there are rules to be followed that will benefit everyone, even with the possiblity of mistakes, errors, and abuses in the implemenation of such rules.
J. Krishnan:”Don’t mix up things merely because you wish to capture them politically and then make capital out of it.”
Do you even know the meaning of an “ideal”? Go look it up in the dictionary before you continue to make a jackass of yourself contradicting well-established reality.
Tilsim:”Really? Forget observational, philosophical or hypothetical arguments about nature, is that what the scientific evidence tells us from a study of biology, chemistry or physics?”
Actually, Raj is right in that the brain is the kind of machine that likes patterns and may see patterns where none exist. This is turn is the reason why scientific experiments are double blinded, i.e., the person/team that wants to prove something scientifically is always different from the entity/team that analyzes the results, and these two groups are supported by a third group that just blindly obeys the instructions on how to conduct the experiment. Even if any of these group of people fool themselves, they will not be relevant to the outcome of the experiment, and thus the fidelity of the scientific experiment is protected. Nothing kills science like preconceived notions.
Khalid,
You have made some good points and I am not going to wade into discussion of why/when caster system came into being, nor about its salubrious effects, if any.
“That is optimistic of you. I still do not know of a single Hindu scholar opposing the caste system in uncertain terms living in India.”
I am a little surprised that you didn’t find a single Hindu scholar opposing the caste system. The whole JNU campus in Delhi is a bastion of far left.
The entire tribe of (some people are going to wince on hearing this) Gandhians have written tomes about the inequalities of the caste system. It would little short of miracle to expect that something rooted in Hindu psyche for centuries would be eliminated by a few legislative moves. Yet, I can assure you, things have changed quite a bit. Now, it is politically incorrect to defend caste system and people who do so are kicked right and left. In case you missed it, Mayawati, the chief minister of UP, which is as large as Pakistan when it comes to the population, is a Dalit, and her power is real. My personal view is that caste system would never go away. What would happen is the blurring of boundaries and some sort of contract between different groups. I am not sure if you know this, but the worst anti Dalit offenders in modern times come from people who were/are themselves classified as backwards.
” Where are the Hindu reformists, who advocate a reform in religious traditions? …… but to really get through to the Hindu majority where are the liberal Hindu theologians?”
Once again, they are a legion. The only reason you don’t hear them loud enough because the general view has settled down to the fact that the caste system is deeply pernicious. Of course, the implementation has still a long way to go. The most famous name who died recently was Baba Amte. I am not sure you can classify people who comment here as scholars, but apart from a few people, it would be hard to call them as pro-caste Hindus. I think Hayyer, Vajra, et al. would strenuously object to that. That is a rough sample but gives you some sort of window to the liberal class in India.
“is extremely slow and not effective in the legislative arena.”
On the contrary, the legislative arena has been relatively quick in passing anti hate laws, so much so that now it has become a little comical. It’s the implementation that is lagging behind. For example, the anti dowry law was passed in the 60s, but I doubt anyone can say that it has stopped dowry. On the contrary, it’s been on rise after a dip in the 80s. Now even some Muslims have forgotten the directives of the Prophet and have conveniently taken to the dowry system. The “mehr” ceremony has become a formality. It’s the dowry that they haggle about now. I know this from personal experience.
“Since 1996 the Government of India has also argued that caste falls outside the scope of the International Convention for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (ICERD). Still they insist upon this and its shocking.”
That is more due to the govt. paranoia about outside interference than anything else. Though, it can be said that the caste system doesn’t strictly fall under the purview of “racial” discrimination. Racial discrimination is a relatively modern phenomenon.
to khalid
When afghans kill US soldiers then the afghans are freedom fighters,
but when hindus fight against the representatives of islamic imperialism then the hindus are xenophobic?
Hindu violence within India is defensive violence. I{EDITED}. In India muslims are the ones with extra-territorial loyalties, hindus are the ones who have no extra-territorial loyalties. You can’t change a whit on that ever. The muslim in India is doomed to have extra-territorial loyalties. He can’t change a whit on that.
To vengaayam
ALL societies fall apart into strata of inequality. That is human nature. No point calling me a jackass – I did not create mankind or human nature. Don’t try to be a holier-than-thou populist by giving sentimental promises. Well-established reality is that inequality and totalitarianism are especially strong in societies that are formed/created on promises of equality.
BTW, the remark on which you commented was not meant for you.
Bade Miyan,
Thanks alot about Hindu reformism and liberalism. Its nice to hear some opposition to the caste system in India and it has broadened my horizons thanks alot.
My personal view is that the caste system on closer inspection of the Hindu faith and scriptures goes against the spirit of the Hindu faith, and I put it down to socio-historical factors and of political control and hierachrical oppression.
I know the Indian government tries hard to fight discrimination and repression, but I feel that in terms of legislation it simply isn’t strong enough. The intent is there, I am not questioning the sincerity, but apart from token politics and token gestures of affirmative action of a few untouchables there is nothing concrete or of great substance in the public sphere.
I do disagree with your comments about the caste system not being ”racial discrimination”, it is still discrimination, and falls under the the International Convention for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
I think the caste system is repungnant to the spirit of Hinduism.
@ Krishanan
You’re talking rubbish and attributing to me opinions I do not hold, so grow up.
JKrishnan:”Well-established reality is that inequality and totalitarianism are especially strong in societies that are formed/created on promises of equality.”
Well-established reality is also that inequality and totaliatarianism are stronger in societies that are formed and created without any promises of equality, like a lot of dictatorships and theocracies.
So what’s your point?
Just having a nice looking constitution does not help, if it is not implemented propertly by the citizenry — the implementation of justice for all citizens equally depends on the implementation of the framework provided by documents that demand equality for all.
Actually, religious reformers who tried to do away with the pernicious aspects of caste (i.e. caste based discrimination) if not caste itself date to much much earlier than the 16th century, when we saw the emergence of Sikhism. Many of the hymns in the Adi Granth (which went on to become the Guru Granth Sahib) were actually those of these earlier reformers, Kabir being an example.
Reformers did not come merely from the set of mystics/poets such as Kabir. It would be worthwhile to read about the teachings and actions of Ramanuja (one of the foremost Saints of Vaishnavism, comparable in status to Adi Shankaracharya on the Shaivite side) in the 11th century. Besides writing about it in his role as a philosopher, he also took practical steps to get rid of caste-based discrimination in his role as a religious leader, for instance in the matter of entry into temples or access to wells and so forth.
And like NotVajra said, there was a series of reformers subsequently in every century who took concrete steps to do away with caste or at least discrimination based on it.
I would even venture to say that without these reformers over the centuries, Hinduism would probably not have survived, or would at least have been severely restricted in number of followers.
The less said about the absence of scholars in modern times who argue against the caste system itself, leave alone discrimination based on caste, the better. To the contrary, it would be hard to find any scholar writing to retain caste based discrimination and few, if any who argue in favor of the caste system even if they decry discrimination based on it.
Hence, I find it surprising when people are willing to make strong assertions about the complete absence of religious reformers or scholars who are against the caste system. It demonstrates absolutely zero knowledge of the issue.
to khalid and vengaayam
Do fight against the caste system – like Don Qixote and Sancho Panza fighting against wind-mills.
Equality has to be got through one’s own performance. If vengaayam does not regard me as his equal then I must perform to achieve that goal. No law, constitution etc. can help – quite the contrary. Making laws to postulate equality will only bring forth subtler and more entrenched forms of the caste system.
Dictatorships and theocracies have always promised equality. Such promises are often the first announcement made by these dictators/theocrats to the people. No system can enforce or deliver equality, nor should we try to create such a system, because it will end up in disappointment and more conflicts and more hypocrisies. The caste system is for protecting the weak against the strong. In a usual human society the honest are the weak ones and the dishonest are the strong ones. The (original) purpose of the caste system was to protect the honest against the dishonest.
Vajra,
I hope you weren’t implying that Jinnah was ever a member of the ‘garam party’.
No, not at all. I was just illustrating that being or not being in Tilak’s “camp” means little in this context. And on PTH, it helps if you make your points with Jinnah in them; gets the message across better.
Yasser babu,
simply pointing out his contribution to the Indian constitution
On the contrary, the only remarkable achievement of Mohani wrt to the Indian Constitution was that he was the only member of the constituent assembly to not ratify it.
Btw, Mohani and Jinnah had no love lost for each other, if that helps. Which is not surprising—i mean Mohani was a weird sort of pan-islamist (like Gandhi, he was “multi-religious”) and a leading Khilafat walah ; IIRC, he also condoned the Moplah massacre with some very specious reasoning (again, like Gandhi).
But to his credit he did stay back in India when it wld have been a lot easier to go off to kiranchi.
I hope khalid and vengaayam respond to my post here. (post of July 15, 2010 at 1:51 pm).