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BLUNDER
by YLH
An example of a collossal miscalculation by our otherwise very cautious founding father:
Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.
The truth is that Pakistani Muslims are incapable of growing up and to hold such expectations from them is to set yourself up for disappointment.
Here is Syed Ali Abbas’ blog:
There have been very few times when I have not found the right words to express my grief, sorrow, anger or passion for something and today is one of those days as I write for my man, Prem Chand – A Pakistani Hindu, a true patriot, a social worker who spent his life trying to uplift the condition of his fellow countrymen, he gave sweat and tears to this land of pure. An elected member of PILDAT’s Youth Parliament, whose fellow YP’s say the following about him:
He greeted muslims with a warm Assalamo alaikum…he sent msgs of congratulations on shab barat and other holy days…..He used “Allah” hafiz to bid farewell…and he swore by this name…I hv been with him….He was more of a sufi who believed in all religions and the good things in them.
And it doesnt even matter if he was that intolerant about religious beliefs, even if he were a staunch Hindu he didnot deserve what we gave him. He was on board EQ-202 Airbus 321, Airblue’s flight to Islamabad which crashed in Margalla Hills leaving 152 dead and the nation mourned (officially for 01 day). He was not travelling on personal visit, he was meant to be present at Youth Parliaments session the next day.
And like said above, he gave his sweat and tears to this land of pure – and what did he get? Some religious bigot wrote “Kaafir” (English: Infidel) on his coffin. (Link) We are no short of these religious bigots whose favorite pass time is to judge and discriminate on Pakistanis on basis of their faith – but this sad incident, which killed 152 human beings was an opportunity for these religious fanatics to show their true face. The poor guy, who was born in a Hindu family and spent his life trying to work for the people of his country was given the title of “Kaafir” by someone amongst us. This particular segment of our society pounces on every opportunity to exhibit their religious fanaticism from the very beginning, when Quaid e Azam (the founder of Pakistan) was labelled as “Kaafir-e-Azam”.
Bear in mind, Pakistan was made because people of Indo-Pak subcontinent felt they were discriminated upon on the basis of their faith – The same we are doing with our minorities.
I would cross-post some of his words here:
I believe in democratic process, because true democracy can solve all problems of state. – Prem Chand.
Prem Chand’s last status update on Facebook was: “Comments Can Make a Person & Comments Can Break a Person.”So Be Careful and Ethical While Giving Comments for Someone.” – He rightly said so. A single word comment on his coffin has shattered many across Pakistan.
I protest against these religious fanatics and I salute Prem Chand – And all the Prem Chands in the making and I confess to the religious minorities of Pakistan – that just because of our silence, just because of our muted response to injustices done to you – we stand here after 64 years. I dig my head in shame, and I vow to fight for you, for us, for the Pakistan we were supposed to have.
Please join this page on facebook as we try to take it from, to pick it from here and voice out for minorities of Pakistan.
Syed Ali Abbas Zaidi
Below is the letter written by Zulqarnain, Prem’s friend:
Its very painful for me to write to defend such gem of a person. But in a society like ours where people are discriminated on the basis of their faith, Its essential to show these religious bigots their real face.
Prem chand was born to a poor family and was its lone feeder. He belonged to Sanghar, Sindh. He was 25 and was married and also had children. He, however, looked younger than his age and we also used to crack jokes on him for this which he thoroughly enjoyed. He certainly was not a “man” and had those boyish looks. He was doing masters from Sindh university, something pertaining to Social work. He not only called himself a social worker but his text messages also bore this signature. The signature was later changed to “YP Minister” when he was made minister for Youth affairs, culture and sports in previous session of YP. This honour was well deserved as he had prepared and presented a comprehensive research report on state of social welfare in Pakistan. He was hardworking, dedicated and sincere. His educational back ground was such that he could not make flowery speeches.
He was not good at speaking English and his Urdu also had that pinch of Sindhi accent but this never deterred him to stand up and speak whenever he wanted. He was a patriot and loved pakistan, worried about it as much as we “muslims” do, brought resolutions, prepared them, asked for help, tried to pinpoint and resolve all the problems that Pakistan faces, spoke against India on water issue and had no qualms on the prospect of going to war with her. I say all this to show that he was “normal”. He was not alien or “Indian”.I have met many people from religious minorities. All of them have that peculiar air about them. they lack confidence, they have fears of the unknown, They are very cautious. Prem Chand also seemed to be the victim of discrimination. Though that did not make him a loner, but it sure taught him to love more. He over tried. tried to be more good to you than u wud expect, tried to make good friends of everyone. Most of the time he lived in the room right next to me during the sessions so he often came over to my room. Thats when I observed this. He would send u text messages just to stay in touch. he wont mind if u didnt reply. I guess, he could not afford to be egotistic.
He was very tolerant in his religious views. We never discussed religion much. Though once I remember a fellow colleague of us talked to him in good faith. He probably wanted to convert him to Islam. Though he never said so. There I came to know that Prem knew much about Islam. He liked Zakir Nayak and comparative studies of different religions. He was interested in Sufism as well. And he wont mind if u asked him questions about hinduism. When interacting with us he would use “muslim” greetings not to prove anything but simply to avoid putting others in a difficult situation.
I still remember the time when we used to hang out. He used to borrow cigarettes from friends and puff away scores of them just for the fun of it. He was not a smoker though. I also remember that prem did not have a FB account. He also did not know how to make one so Hassan Javed (the late youth prime minister) made one for him on his laptop. When the account was made he jokingly asked Hassan to allow him to add Hassan’s female friends as he did not have girlfriends of his own……Thats all I can remember right now hope it helps.
Following is a comment by another colleague of Prem:
I am Muneeb Afzal, a Member of Youth parliament of Pakistan and a Colleague and Friend of Late Prem Chand. An extremely hard-working person he was a symbol of tolerance. My last communication with him was on night before the Air Crash, he gave his greetings to me on ocassion of 15th of Shabaan.
At PIMS fortunately another friend of ours was there when Prem’s Cousin Nanik Das came to search for his body, he quickly hid the tag ‘kafir’ by putting marker lines on it, so that Prem’s family which is already suffering from great grief does not have to bear more hurt. Although later at a memorial session where media was present I criticized the inhumanity and intolerance of those who did this shameful act. I felt this was my duty to my Late friend Prem Chand that i make it clear to the world that we condemn this act of intolerance and Narrow Minded-ness. But a lot of my other colleagues have since objected to my speaking out, believing that my saying this and this news spreading in media would add to hurt of Prem’s family, and in a way they are right too. I would like you all to also keep this in mind as well…
Rest In Peace dear Prem Chand
And to end this blog post, an example of prescience from our founding father:
Pakistan was the biggest blunder of my life.
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@ Harbir Singh
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. Once we have shared purpose, much more is possible.
Wiki says:
The word was used officially in this way, without derogatory connotations, during the Dutch and British colonial periods until the early twentieth century. It appears in many historical accounts by anthropologists, missionaries and other observers, as well as in academic writings. For example, the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford originally labeled many African artifacts as “Kaffir” in origin. The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica made frequent use of the term, to the extent of having an article of that title.[7]
Occasionally, the word was used to refer specifically to the Xhosa people, as in such inoffensive linguistic works as interpreter Bud’ Mbelle’s ‘Kafir Scholar’s Companion’, Kropf’s ‘Kaffir-English Dictionary’, J. Torrend’s ‘Outline of Xosa-Kafir Grammar’, and J. McLaren’s ‘Introductory Kaffir Grammar’, where a distinction was made between the ‘Kaffir’ Xhosa and the other Bantu tribes of Southern Africa; Bud’ Mbelle was himself a member of the Mfengu tribe, closely related to the Xhosa and Zulu people. More recent editions of both of these works have had their names sanitised by current standards, and the word ‘Kaffir’ has been replaced by the word ‘Xhosa’ wherever deemed necessary, especially in the case of the ‘Revised Kaffir Bible’ – a translation of the Bible into the Xhosa language.
[edit] Apartheid-era South Africa
During the 20th century, the word gradually took on negative connotations. By 1976, its use was actionable in court in South Africa. On a number of occasions the use of the term Kaffir led directly to violence or even death, as in the case of Almond Nofomela. While working as an undercover policeman during the early 1980s, Nofomela stabbed and killed a farmer after being allegedly called a kaffir.[8]
The Afrikaans term Kaffir-boetie (English: Kafir brother) was also often used to describe a white person who fraternised with or sympathized with the cause of the black community.[9][10]
Well, I would rather not comment on this episode, painful and regrettable as it is. But Blunder is completely inappropritae in many respect. The creation of Pakistan helped Muslims of NW/NE India immensely- it created political and economic power for them (esp NW India) which wud never have been theirs in an United India. As Yasser Pai has commented in a different context on chowk, many folks who wud have been little more than peons to Hindoo officers have become reputed “intellectuals” in Pakistan. If not anything else NW IMs were spared becoming a part of the poverty-stricken hell hole that the Nehruvian Stalinist a-holes made India into.
Regards
In his new column in dailytimes on Bangladesh, Mr. Hamdani missed this:
“Bangladesh SC bans religious parties, upholds secularism
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Press Trust of India Tags : Bangladesh, SC, 1979 Fifth Amendment Posted: Fri Jul 30 2010, 00:35 hrs Dhaka:
Islamic
The Supreme Court ruling sets the stage to ban religious parities like the country’s largest Islamist party like Jamaat-e-Islami.
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Islamist parties in Bangladesh face a ban from politics after the controversial 1979 Fifth Amendment was struck down by the Supreme Court in a landmark ruling that also paved the way for ensuring secularism as the “cornerstone” of the country’s constitution.
Following the Appellate Division’s decision upholding the High Court’s landmark verdict that declared the Constitution’s 1979 Fifth Amendment illegal, restrictions on formation of organisations based on religion were restored.
“Carrying out activities of any political party based on religion is now punishable offence under the Special Powers Act,” Law Minister Shafique Ahmed said. “Their activities are now punishable offence,” he said.
Political parties and other organisations using religion as their guidelines now stand banned with cancellation of the Fifth Amendment to the constitution, he said. “
When your common man start inviting Muslims to eat in his home and when your middle classes allow Muslims to live in their apartment complexes in Mumbai, please send us a post card.
Tilsim1 – consider this that post card. You’re freaking clueless. My Dad (not Hindu or Muslim) lives in an apartment complex in Mumbai with 70% Muslim, and assorted Jain, Sikh, Christian and Hindu families. No, it’s not a shanty – each flat costs upwards of 1cr (INR not PKR). This is middle/upper-middle class in Mumbai. He and a Muslim buddy of his had a hard discussion about the Muslim biwi’s idea of not allowing their kids to celebrate Holi. My Dad’s point – what kind of crap are we teaching our kids? To his credit, the guy spoke to his wife and the kids were down coloring everyone’s faces like the other kids. My Dad also had to negotiate an agreement between the Muslims of the building who spill blood during Bakri-Id and the Jains who don’t even eat eggs.
It may seem like another universe to you, but it’s every day for us. I listen to the song about Khwaja Moin-ud-din Chrishti in “Jodha Akbar” almost every day. I’ve seen more burkhas in my Dad’s building than I saw in Dubai. When my mother passed away, the old (Muslim – not that it matters) watchman from Azamgarh promised to look after my Dad. My wife’s from another minority – and neither of us is Hindu or Muslim. Our kids don’t know and don’t care what they are.
Please don’t make an ass of yourself and behave like Pakistan invented Islam in 1947. I’m sure you know that Shafi and Hanafi schools of thought have deep roots in modern India. Ahmadiyyas are Muslim in India i.e. qualify for a Haj subsidy from the Indian Government. Deoband is in UP, not Pakjab. Islam has been in South India since the 7th century (as Christianity has since the 1st century). We’re proud of it and would not have it any other way.
Libertarian,
Thank you. No offense, but I would have preferred you listened to the Sufi song in Garam Hawa or the one in (old)Junoon. I bet HR has mauled the portrayal of Akbar in Jodha…
“We’re proud of it and would not have it any other way.”
May your tribe increase.
“I’ve seen more burkhas in my Dad’s building than I saw in Dubai.”
I suspected as much. Now Majumdar’s comments make perfect sense.
Ahmadis (I think Ahmadis number in only a few 10s of thousands in India) are considered Muslim in India only because India’s fine secular constitution does not force upon others definitions of its own making. However you should consult the status of Ahmadis from the Muslim Personal Law Board which has a semi-official status… or ask Darul uloom Deoband for a fatwa.
“Deoband is in UP, not Pakjab”
Yes. Something I have been trying to point out to people for a very long time to… but not quite from the angle you are
.
Only recently Deoband declared Banking haram for Muslims. I wish to point out that Deoband is in India not Pakistan too.
@libertarian
Are you misunderstanding my comment?
My point for the illustration was that bigotry and communalism are alive and well in India – I chose to use the examples of Hindus in India. You have just given me an example of bigotry amongst muslims in India. Are you denying this exists?
P.s I am very happy that you all get along in your apartment complex. I hope that one day, others, less fortunate do too. I hope that Indians can also get past their stereotypes of this country.
The rest of your post, about Pakistan inventing Islam. I don’t know what that is about as I have not talked about that.
NSA : Thanks a ton. You made my day. I feel happy in a long time. I visited the website you suggested : http://www.khanacademy.org
It truly is a labour of love. SALMAAN KHAN… what a guy. A hero. There are around 1100 brief lectures… covering Algebra., Trignometry, Math., to History…
How it made me happy, NSA. I cannot convey the tingling and euphoria my nerves feel right now. Content Creation is True Wealth Creation and Conservation. I have known this. I have heard this in my home while growing up… but man is a selfish creature…
The beautiful thing is that Salmaan has not concentrated tailor-made course for a particular Sylabbi / Curricula. Its about concept… and that is key. 2+2 make 4., be it ICGSE, CBSE, State Board, IB… and what not. The important thing is to understand the concept that 2+2 equal to 4.
School Education… using the latest Edu-tools available… how to bring about the best cost-benefit analysis… is very close to my heart. It is the life of my life… because i know this is grass roots work. This intangible work., leads to tangible growth… visible to the naked eye.
Ghalib had said once : that when spring comes, you cannot see the wind… but you can realise the reality… when you see grass blades moving in the direction !
Thanks again… for introducing a truly rich guy, Salmaan… and for the fine content (1100 lectures) he put on the web for free.
I think… content creation… for free… plus the Home School Model… (from our first cousins… i.e. the Israeli Model)… could lead to very fine results… in the field of education. The other day i was reading about kids being imparted technical education (plumbing, caprentry, welding, etc)… around age 15… in a school in Africa.
Human instincts and inclinations are diverse. All students are NOT academically inclined. There has to be Universal Education (K-12)… and at age 17.. i think… a 2 year course in plumbing.. brick laying.. welding.. carpentry.. electrician.. etc… will make the boy employable at age 19. If even 19 is considered too late… it can be done at age 18. (K-10., and 3 yrs of professional training).. since economic sustainability of families are at risk., and “next meal” is the future.
Porn sites are the most visited (world over).. because of the human urge and basic instincts.. which is a part of growing up.. and that curiosity.. is a natural thing. However, if the course material is attractively PRESENTED… i am sure… kids would visit those sites too. I hope against hope….in that positive direction… if not today.. someday.. they will. Academia and Studies are equally intoxicating.. as wine.. drugs.. and porn sites. We just have to fine-tune.. and change the direction of the compass… very slowly… very slowly.. to set the ship on course… “ACADEMIA”.
Tilsim1: My point for the illustration was that bigotry and communalism are alive and well in India … Are you denying this exists?
Of course not. It is alive and well. Your original request was “When your common man start inviting Muslims to eat in his home and when your middle classes allow Muslims to live in their appartement complexes in Mumbai, please send us a post card.”
Happens all the time in the apartment complex I described. In fact the builder is a Muslim guy who made 200 cr on the project. So it’s the other way around. The Muslims guy allowed the non-Muslims to live in his building. Not sure how bigotry figures. Seemed to be all about the money.
YLH: “Deoband is in UP, not Pakjab”
Yes. Something I have been trying to point out to people for a very long time to… but not quite from the angle you are
Only recently Deoband declared Banking haram for Muslims. I wish to point out that Deoband is in India not Pakistan too.
It’s quirky that the virus India let loose is creating havoc in Pakistan but not in India, no? No one in India gives a rat’s butt about what they say. After some other ridiculous fatwa banning women from the workplace, there were several reports of (Indian) Muslim women complaining loudly and vowing not to follow it. They’re effectively relegated to Nutjob Central – where they belong. More importantly, they stay strictly out of politics because there is no viable political space for them, not even in UP or Bihar.
The same idiots have real political power in Pakistan. The talk about them being marginal political players understates they’re king-making (and trouble-making) ability. Far from being shunted behind the madrassahs’ high walls, they have infected the body-politic. So the awe/terror/disgust they invoke when chatting with Pakistani friends is singularly absent when chatting with Indian friends.
Chote Miya: No offense, but I would have preferred you listened to the Sufi song in Garam Hawa or the one in (old)Junoon.
Will make it a point to check out. Thanks for the tip.
I bet HR has mauled the portrayal of Akbar in Jodha
HR == Hrithik Roshan?
I kinda liked him. But then, I’m in awe enough of Akbar himself that Himesh Reshamiyya (HR too!) could have played him and I might still have enjoyed it
Not quirky. You know the facts. Pakistan’s military establishment armed your virus.
*** This Message Has Been Sent Using BlackBerry Internet Service from Mobilink ***
EDITED FOR NONSENSE.
Specifically, I was specifically reacting to the people making the following comments:
“How deep hate towards India runs in Pakistani society can be seen on the example of this pakistani Hindu Prem Chand. Even though a hindu he had to parrot this “India is our enemy” mantra to survive in Pakistan.”
“The blog quoted by the author say one thing that Prem Chand is a nice, lovable DHIMMI. ”
“The blogger likes Prem because he pleased the ears and sense of pious Muslims. ”
I recall there were others too, perhaps they were deleted.
These comments say: heads you lose, tails you lose. They are pure bile.
Yasser Pai,
Not quirky. You know the facts. Pakistan’s military establishment armed your virus.
I have a feeling that the Indian establishment is keeping Deoband going for mischief. They produce the virus which RAW exports to Pakistan which are then mutated by ISI. It may be a giant Gandhooan conspiracy.
Regards
Lol
@ libertarian
Although I would love to believe your anecdotes and tales of harmony, the sad fact is that the phenomenono Tilsim1 is talking about has been documented and shown to be widespread by journalists and invesitgators.
Read this from the Channel 4 website from a documentary from Dispathces called the Indian Miracle? (the investigator is British Indian):
The new India has a high-tech, highly-skilled economy. The country’s universities are churning out thousands of highly qualified science and computer graduates working in software, biotechnology and engineering firms in metropolitan India.
But in rural India, where more than three-quarters of the population live, Guru-Murthy discovers the story could not be more different. He meets some of the thousands of widows of farmers who have committed suicide after being driven to despair by debt. More than seven hundred million people depend on farming to make a living but the cost of buying tractors, fertilisers and irrigation pumps for small farmers has left some in debt and with no way out.
“I don’t know what we are going to eat now. When my father was alive – he used to provide for us. Now I don’t know what we will do,” says the 10-year-old son of a farmer from Punjab. His father killed himself by dousing himself in kerosene and setting himself alight. And as India’s economic boom powers ahead, farmers’ land on the edge of the expanding metropolises is being seized to make way for yet more factories. Unskilled farmers are finding themselves without land and without a hope of working in the new factories in what’s becoming a hidden disaster of epic proportions
MS Swaminathan, the founder of India’s original green revolution in the 1960′s fears a different kind of revolution if the problems of rural India are not tackled. “Any society which transgresses from the principle of social equity beyond a point then you have an explosive situation,” says Swaminathan. “If you want a country of 500 million landless labourers – then the country will be completely ruined. It will be social chaos of unimaginable dimensions.”
In Mumbai, India’s financial capital, Guru-Murthy investigates the renewed support for Hindu nationalism which many argue is resulting in widespread discrimination against India’s 150 million-strong Muslim minority. He finds discrimination is excluding Muslims from the new prosperity as they struggle to find employment and buy property. Going undercover in one housing complex in Mumbai, Guru-Murthy is told by security guards that Muslims are not allowed to buy or rent property there. “I feel insulted. I feel humiliated”, says Muslim businessman Salim who has spent the last four years being refused the opportunity to buy property in the complex.
In Delhi, the country’s capital, Guru-Murthy examines the way in which Indian society also discriminates against huge swathes of the majority Hindu population via the caste system. The Indian government is supposedly trying to tackle this age-old social stratification system which defines the jobs people do through a programme of affirmative action policies in education and employment. The notion of ‘untouchability’ – which defines those at the bottom of the caste system who carry out the most menial jobs and have no physical contact with upper-caste Hindus – was meant to be banned 60 years ago.
But Guru-Murthy discovers that the caste system is still alive and well and forces those at the bottom of the ladder, dalits, to do jobs like clearing up human excrement. Satish Kumar belongs to the low caste Valmiki community, his job is to clean sewers and toilets, he says: “When my children ask me why I do this and tell me it is dirty, I tell them I do it to feed them. If I don’t they will die of hunger.”
India’s economy is powering ahead, growing at an incredible nine per-cent a year. But Guru-Murthy argues it is merely widening the gap between the rich and the poor. The ultra rich are now able to live behind electrified fences in entire self-contained cities away from the degradation, poverty and despair of the rest of India.
QUOTE ENDED
Type this in google and see the documentary for yourself.
Now do I go on documented evidence or hearsay? I stick with the documented evidence thank you very much.
A A Khalid: Although I would love to believe your anecdotes and tales of harmony …
Seems you’ve fallen into the intellectual trap of being a “protector” or “voice” for Indian Muslims as your sworn duty of being Pakistani (Muslim?). Well, I have news for you. Indian Muslims are quite capable of fighting their own battles. Those are battles internal to India, just as Prem Chand is a purely Pakistani issue. Your concern for Indian Muslims is appreciated but is not necessary.
Guru-Murthy investigates the renewed support for Hindu nationalism which many argue is resulting in widespread discrimination against India’s 150 million-strong Muslim minority …
Gurumurthy’s observations are hard to fault. Yes, there is discrimination against Muslims. No denying it. That’s why a disproportionate number opt for businesses of their own. The burning question is why Muslims are the only minority that trails the mean and the Hindu majority in all human development indicators. Every other minority exceeds the mean, some by large numbers. Clearly the Indian state and Indian society has not kept it’s other minorities back. They’ve found ways around discriminatory practices when they do exist. Why then is the Muslim experience so sub-par? I do not have good answers. But it’s something India and Indians need to figure out as a priority.
Secularism is the only solution for this country or perhaps a great reformation; there is no other solution to the problem of fanaticism that has been purposely given air in this country. SZ
@ libertarian
“Indian Muslims are quite capable of fighting their own battles. Those are battles internal to India, just as Prem Chand is a purely Pakistani issue. Your concern for Indian Muslims is appreciated but is not necessary.”
Fine. Will you please also address these views to your fellow countrymen who post here or do they deserve a different standard?
Libetarian:
I do not have pretensions of being a protector of anyone, I am merely pointing out empirical studies and facts on the ground as documented by journalists. Also I read many pieces and articles detailing the plight of other minorities in India, (but this is a trend across the developing world, so no surprises there). Other minorities in India suffer aswell unfortunately which runs counter to India’s constitutional commitements.
But I agree one has to take these issues seriously and make them a priority.
The labeling of the coffin with such remarks was indeed a huge blunder. The authorities must take notice of this and apprehend the people responsible. This should be an act of solitary with the family of the deceased and all the minority factions.
AA Khalid
{{Also I read many pieces and articles detailing the plight of other minorities in India, (but this is a trend across the developing world, so no surprises there). Other minorities in India suffer aswell unfortunately which runs counter to India’s constitutional commitements.}}
Khalid mian, this is not confined to minorities alone. Many from the majority Hindu community are also suffering from the same plight. Sometimes minorities have it better, because they are protected and encouraged by government schemes that aim to uplift minorities. These schemes unfortunately are not available for the poor among Hindus because they are a “majority”. So it is a complex problem. There is discrimination, no doubt about it; but it is at a societal level. The government absolutely does not discriminate and in fact, favours minorities. That has been the gripe of right-wing Hindu parties. So please don’t reduce it to simple black and white logic.
@ Voldemort
“The government absolutely does not discriminate and in fact, favours minorities. ”
Fair enough. Under which law in Mumbai can a Hindu take action against a Muslim landlord or tenants association of an apartment block who discriminates against him? The landlord or tenants association prevent a Hindu buying property based on the fact that he won’t even eat eggs or that they celebrate Holi -which may corrupt the kids’ faith.
If the laws are there, are successful prosecutions taking place?
Tilsim : You are plain stupid in your comments. I find this very warped between people of both sides of the border who have very strong views since they are either very good or/very bad in history. Completely warped and nonsense
To clarify your post, In India, we dont have laws made on the basis of religion for everything like lets say a hindu tenancy law or a muslim tenancy law. If I am not mistaken, there are laws for inheriting property specifically on basis of religion. Not sure about Pakistan and hence I am a bit amused if your q’s (right from your post card thread) are for serious reading or/ just flimsy arguement
The article above speaks of problems that Pakistani society faces in accomodating the minority groups overall within their fold. I dont think any one in Mangalore wrote any nonsense on the coffins when many innocent muslim lives were lost in the Mangalore crash recently. The objective is to understand WHAT HAS GONE WRONG IN YOUR SOCIETY AND WHY? you should seriously debate within on the increasing levels of intolerance that is getting highly dangerous by the year for your nation and world in general
Including India in the discussions pertaining this article is diluting the very spirit with which it was written and the message YLH meant to carry to your youth.
If you and other pakistani youth want to discuss about INDIA including the disparity in wealth ( between urban / rural), lack of rented flats for muslims in Mumbai, slums in mumbai, Mahatma’s dubious policies in Indian independence, Aurangzeb Alamgirs reign etc, you may want to initiate a seperate article
The idea that all human beings are equal and equal-valued is the root cause of many troubles. It forces hypocrisy.
Hindus regard muslims as unclean and muslims regard hindus as palid. Each has reason for it. Let it be. Why try to equalize humans?
That Deoband is in India shows the evil that islam brought into India and poor India has to take blame for it. Deoband may be physically-geographically in India, but its spirit is from Arabia. Imagine how pakistanis would shriek if India had tried or tries to shut down Deoband.
Islam is the ill-luck of the indian subcontinent. It will destroy till quislings of arab imperialism and backwardness and book-centred fascism take over by hook or crook.
@Tilsim1,
A quick search on google turned up this:
“Under laws governing the western Maharashtra state, of which Mumbai is the capital, housing societies cannot discriminate unless the building is built by a charitable trust.
However, A Supreme Court judgement in 2005 upheld the right of co- operative societies to restrict membership to their community has institutionalized insularity.
So its neither black or white. Indians are instinctively clan based, especially the western Indians (Gujaratis, Marwardis, Jains) & some Tamil Brahmins). So as many have mentioned, even Hindus of different castes may find it tough to get an apartment if it is governed by co-op societies having strict rules regarding ethnicity or religion.
In day to day life, there is no bias against muslims as such. Its a bias against anybody not of your caste/community, though that is starting to diminish, especially in urban India. And amongst the middle classes, I don’t think there is any discrimination against muslims (though middle class muslims are not as much as they should be). Thats my take, having lived 26 years in that country.
@rationalist,
Islam is a fact of life. Get used to it.
A country that does not treat its children, women and minorities can head nowhere other than ….
pakistan’s women and minorities will have to fight their own battles,
The mullah’ and hate mongers should be wiped, like these women did,
They’re not burning bras, or burqas. But a bunch of non-conformist Muslim women activists are making an attempt to free the sorority from the clutches of a patriarchial clergy.
Last week, Lucknow-based feminist Shaista Ambar was on television again. This time she was siding with the three daughters-in-law – Nishat, Hina and Arshi – who had beaten up some maulvis at Sultanul Madaris, the city’s famous Shia madrassa which also houses a Sharia court. The maulvis had given talaqnamas (divorce documents) to the women’s husbands without consulting them when they tried to get justice against the advances of their father-in-law.
Incensed, Ambar batted for the brave women whom the clergy predictably attacked for taking the law into their hands. “The maulvis should have spoken to the women before they wrote the talaqnama. The patriarchal, misogynist clergy will have to mend its ways or women know how to avenge injustice,” Ambar told TOI-Crest in between giving interviews to news channels.
Ambar belongs to a small but increasingly influential group of Islamic feminists in India. They may not be as powerful as the senior maulvis who head leading Islamic seminaries or run Muslim Personal Law Boards and Sharia courts, both Shia and Sunni. But this band of non-conformist women is silently and successfully ushering in change.
They may not equal the audacity of the bra-burning feminists of several decades ago, but they’ve hit hard at the patriarchal and misogynist elements in Muslim society. And their guiding sources are the Quran and Hadith (the Prophet’s traditions). Ambar, who founded the Muslim Women’s Personal Law Board in 2005, saved the marriages of hundreds of Muslim couples in Muradabad (UP) village a couple of years ago.
A maulvi belonging to the Deobandi sect had led the namaz-e-janaza (funeral prayer) of a man from the Barelvi sect. Calling it a sin, another maulvi of the sect issued a fatwa that all those who had attended the funeral prayer under the imamat (leadership) of the Deobandi imam needed to remarry, as their wives had become haram (illegal) for them. “This diktat threatened not just to throw the marital lives of several dozen Muslims into disarray, but also inflame a sectarian strife in western UP,” says Ambar, who quelled the crisis by opposing the fatwa. She cited the example of holy mosques in Mecca and Medina where lakhs worship behind Deobandi imams. Ambar was also among those who opposed the recent Darul Uloom fatwa that called women’s earnings illegal. India’s Islamic feminists are bucking trends courageously and cannily.
In August 2008, Planning Commission member Sayeda Hameed created history by becoming the first woman qazi when she solemnised a nikah ceremony in Lucknow – that of activist Naesh Hasan and PhD scholar Imran Naeem. “Naesh told me that she would remain unmarried if I didn’t act as the qazi. I had to give in to her demands,” recalls Hameed, who drew flak from a section of clerics who said there was no precedent of a woman acting as a qazi. “I asked them to show me a verse in the Quran or a Hadith which prevented a woman from becoming a qazi. If it was not forbidden by Allah and His Prophet, who were the maulvis to oppose it?” she asks. After they couldn’t come out with a convincing reason, some maulvis spread the lie that Hameed had not covered her head while she chanted Quranic verses during the nikah. This was a lie, claims Hameed, fabricated to malign her.
The Islamic feminist movement is not confined to occasional acts of rebellion by contrarian “progressives” . There are some feminists who are respected by even senior clerics and regularly invited to their meetings. Mumbaibased Uzma Naheed is one such. Coming from the family of the clerics that founded the famous Darul Uloom Deoband (UP) in the mid-18th century, Naheed is a member of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIIMPLB) and heads Iqra International Women Alliance (IIWA), an NGO committed to empowering Muslim women. A few yeas ago, she drafted a model nikahnama which had, among other provisions, a right to talaq-e-tafweez (delegated talaq) which allowed women a right to put certain conditions in the nikahnma. If the husband failed to meet those conditions – like not taking another wife till the first wife was alive – the woman could divorce him. Many members privately appreciated Naheed’s revolutionary nikahnama, but are yet to implement it.
Unlike most Muslim women who are expected to remain veiled when they meet strangers, Naheed doesn’t use a face veil, though she covers her head with a scarf.
“Initially, some ulema were uncomfortable with my being unveiled. Now they have accepted me,” she says.
Another feminist is Zeenat Shaukat Ali, who teaches Islamic Studies at Mumbai’s St Xavier’s College and has made “freeing Muslim women from the clutches of the clergy” her life’s mission. Thirteen years ago, Ali created a stir among educated Muslims with her critically acclaimed book Marriage and Divorce in Islam (1997). “The book’s main argument is that since Allah made male and female as complementary to each other, there is no reason to treat women as inferior to men,” says Ali, who adds that her feminism is not about male-bashing , but about sharing space with them.
The academic has organised several multi-faith programmes, including a cricket match featuring maulvis, Hindu pandits, Christian, Zoroastrian and Sikh priests as players. Her Art for Peace project had similar multireligious participation where the participants were asked to paint on a theme of peace. “Many of the maulvis had never picked up a brush before,” she recalls.
Fiery woman activist Daud Sharifa’s aim is to build a mosque exclusively for women. Since mosques are binding forces for practising Muslims, there has been a movement to allow women to worship there, and a few mosques in India, like the Tajul Madaris in Bhopal, do allow women worshippers, though segregated by a wall or a curtain. But an exclusive mosque for women was unheard of in India till Sharifa took up the issue a few years ago.
Having seen the discrimination against Muslim women at the hands of the local jamaat in Tamil Nadu, Sharifa launched a movement for women’s empowerment not financially but spiritually too. She is building India’s first mosque exclusively for women in Pudukkottai, around 300 km from Chennai. “It will serve not just as a place of worship but even as a cultural centre where women can air their views and discuss their problems,” explains Sharifa whom the local maulvis vehemently opposed, but failed to stop.
This bunch of Islamic feminists is fighting for a better future for sisters in distress. Ask the three women in Lucknow who, after bashing up the corrupt maulvis, found Shaista Ambar as a shield against the threats, both verbal and physical.
Spreading wings: Islamic feminism is a decade and a half old. In the 1990s Iranian, Egyptian, Turkish, Moroccan, South African, American, feminists and religious scholars, among others, found they were all simultaneously working on reinterpretations of women’s rights under Islam. It is now well on its way to becoming a robust international movement with more and more women pushing for a progressive Islamic discourse to promote gender equality.
Tilsim: Fine. Will you please also address these views to your fellow countrymen who post here or do they deserve a different standard?
The Indians who post here are a *tiny* minority who (yours truly included) likely have an unhealthy obsession with Pakistan. We should be held to the same standard. If I interfere in what you consider a purely Pakistani issue, please feel free to shut me up. I cannot presume to speak for other Indians – our bumbling government does that
.
YLH: squeeze the political space of the mullahs by filling it up with other alternatives – the left is MIA in Pakistan. Surely the Bhuttos were not the last example of a movement that captured the popular imagination. “Build it and they will come”.
On a related note, India could have politically folded Kashmir in by filling it with decent political alternatives instead of backing one-party (Abdullah) rule and leaving the door wide open for the Hurriyat (so said Rajeev Gandhi).
”: squeeze the political space of the mullahs ”
With what? By talking in secular terms? The mullahs keep on laughing if you use ”secular language and theory” ( I use secularism in this context as the psychological variety, where it refers to a person’s world view and belief system, not political secularism or objective secularism which entails the separation of religion and the State which I value), because that does not threaten his terrain.
The thing which threatens the mullah’s terrain is offering an alternative religious discourse, and in this context liberals in Pakistan have utterly failed in every sense of the word. They have abandoned the religious discourse to bigots, fanatics and the illiterate who manipulate religious teaching.
Burke said:
”All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
In Pakistan the story of the religious discourse is summed up in this apt quote. The impoverished and appaling nature of religious discourse in Pakistan is because there is a monopoly over religious discourse in Pakistan held by the conservatives and radicals which goes unchallenged.
No one challenges the mullah on their terms and defeats their arguments. Many think they are being clever by adopting ”secular theory and language” , when really that’s just nonsense. Its like speaking Swahili in the middle of Paris and expect people to understand.
A great Muslim reformer once said: ”To seek secular answers is simply to abandon the field to the fundamentalists”. This continues to happen in Pakistan and in other parts of the Muslim World.
The mullah will keep laughing on and still be able to exert influence so long as the terrain of religious discourse in Pakistan is being wilfully neglected by more progressive and liberal forces.
@ Prasad
“The government absolutely does not discriminate and in fact, favours minorities. ”
Thank you. I have been called stupid, freakin’ clueless. It would be good to have a discussion without such comments.
Your premise would be fine but there are many Indians posting here and telling us how it’s different in India at government level (better). We certainly look to India’s situation for our laws so perhaps we can learn something.
My question is (to anyone who is able to answer), what religious anti-discrimination laws do you have in place in Maharashtra. Is it possible to take someone to court if that person discriminates based on religion and prevents one from buying an apartment?
@ Android
I apologise, I missed your post. Thank you for shedding some more light on the matter.
@A A Khalid: I don’t think you want to challenge the mullahs to a religious discourse. It’s no-win for you. My suggestion was to limit the political space available to them. These guys have no business getting elected at any level of government. One way is for credible people like you to espouse a left-leaning agenda, much the way Bhutto did (except without the emperor mind-set). A grass-roots movement. This blog is a great place to start. Promote it vigorously. In time, your opinion will be widely quoted, and will shape public opinion. Use 21st century tools to bludgeon that regressive 17 century mindset.
@Tilsim: My question is (to anyone who is able to answer), what religious anti-discrimination laws do you have in place in Maharashtra.
In buying real estate, can’t think of any. But in a private transaction, there should not be laws stipulating who you can do business with. For instance my Bohra buddy complained that his building had 2 Khoja families and they messed things up! Marwaris and Christians also have their little (fairly high-priced) ghettos. But Mumbai has 20M people. Most folks don’t have the luxury of dictating who their neighbor is – the way it should be. No need for over-reaching silly laws that are then misused.
@tislim
i cant xactly talk about mumbai…u r probably talking about all d high profile bolly wood dramas…with due respect to the bhat family,anything involving bollywood shud be taken with a pinch of salt.u may b knowing abt d sharukh episode b4 d release of mnik.
but some sort of favouritism towards there own group exists in all sections of society.how far u want to take it as anti muslim per se is ur choice…if u read through certain rental advertisements in chennai,dey vl have ‘only vegetarians need apply’…it is a hidden message for non brahmins to f@#k off…
but it vl be hard to prove it as discrimination based on caste…der r multiple court pronouncemnts regarding a private club can choose its own members based on there criteria as long as it is nt discriminatory
@ Libertarian
The religious parties have never had great electoral success, any gains they make are meagre and they are forever damned to the fringes for promoting such claptrap.
The issue is with this ”religious space” within the public sphere which seems to be the exclusive preserve of reactionaries, demagogues and radicals. That has to change, and that change must come from engaging in offering an alternative religious discourse.
lal:
I thought you were capable of transcribing speech into normal English. Is this lapse into patois episodic, depending upon the hour after sunset, or is it mood induced? Just curious.
Tilsim,
Most of the laws against discrimination relate to discrimination by the state or by institutions that receive any state support. Article 15(2) specifically prohibits discrimination in terms of access to “shops, restaurants, hotels and other public places of entertainment” by private citizens, but home ownership and rental apartments don’t fall within any of these classes. Thus, any prevention of discrimination in terms of purchase and rent of homes/apartments is left to the state-level laws.
In Mumbai, there are two laws that are of direct relevance to the issue. The Maharashtra Cooperative Societies Act 1960 regulates cooperative housing societies (that constitute a majority of the homes in Mumbai). The law prevents discrimination against arbitrariness in membership, i.e. nobody who is otherwise eligible for membership as per the bye-laws of the society can be denied membership. I am not sure if there is anything in the law books that prevents a society from having a discriminatory set of bye-laws, e.g. would the registrar of societies register the bye-laws of a Cooperative Housing society that says that membership is only open to Christians? I don’t know.
The other law is the Maharashtra Rent Control Act, which regulates rental property. This does not, to my knowledge, have an explicit clause against discrimination, but does require due process.
Laws that explicitly criminalize discrimination would be a first step, but would not be a guarantee against discrimination by private citizens. The fragmented nature of the housing market makes it very difficult to enforce such a law. Proving discrimination would be difficult to impossible when there is not much of a written record in these matters. Thus, laws need to be supplemented with education and awareness building. And in public housing, desegregation needs to be promoted vigorously. In Mumbai, there are massive slum rehabilitation projects underway, that aim to move people from slums into high rise apartment buildings. There is a big opportunity to promote a Singapore-style mixing of people of different communities in these housing developments.
BTW, Mumbai is actually not too segregated. There are areas that can be identified with specific communities (e.g. Bhiwandi with Muslims, Dadar with Marathi-speaking people, Matunga/Chembur with Tamil speakers and so on), but that is true in most cities across the world and not necessarily unhealthy. Segregation is lower still the lower one goes down the income/class ladder, due to the economic realities of the housing market. There are other parts of India, e.g. Gujarat, where segregation is quite real, with every incident of violence/communal riots increasing the degree to which communities live in separate neighborhoods due to higher perceived security of living with one’s own community. Promoting desegregation is a higher priority in these places.
Erratum: Article 15(2) of the Constitution.
@hayyer
k u gt m n dat
@ all those who helped shed light on the laws
Thank you very much for your interest and explanations. Specially Girish.
My impression is that if discrimination for an individual citizen is to be reduced, it seems a strengthening of the laws could be an important option. However, I respect that India is not the US or the UK and different social realities apply which perhaps need to be dealt with by greater awareness.
Tonight in Karachi there is more violence. Nobody will be going to work tomorrow. An MQM, Sindh MP has been assassinated and sectarian and ethnic strife has escalated in the wake of the killing (although it was summering along for months). It’s good to see that Mumbai is not suffering from this level violence which is a direct result of bigotry.
Karachi is the younger sister of Mumbai in some respect (no equivalence implied!) so in the ideal world, both the City administrations could learn from each others’ experiences to improve their governance.
Tilsim,
It’s not same-same between India and Pakistan. You saying that let Muslims eat and live in your houses then send a post card.
That’s plain ignorance. You go and see by yourself in Mumbai if what’s said in your media is true. Those who say this (eating, living together) are ignorant of Indian peoples whether it’s Hindus or Muslims.
The new Indian Hindus are getting love for pork nowadays. Please tell me if Muslims lend house to those pork eating Hindus, Christians or North-eastern tribals. If they do then please send me a post card.
Caste X dont prefer to lend house to caste Y but X prefers variants of X ie X1, X2 or X3 even if caste X and caste Y belong to Hindu religion.
In Mumbai ther are more than 30 lakh Muslims. Tell me if they are living without any normal social interaction with other Indians, be they Hindus, jains, parsis, Christians or Bahais.
Most of the Pakistanis here are ignorant abt India.
@ girish
“”I am not sure if there is anything in the law books that prevents a society from having a discriminatory set of bye-laws, e.g. would the registrar of societies register the bye-laws of a Cooperative Housing society that says that membership is only open to Christians?”‘
Kindly go through indiankanoon dot org doc 713373 or google ‘ zoroastrian CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETY LIMITED VS District Registrar Co-operative Societies ,supreme court judjement in 2005.
Briefly, Zorastrian co-operative society in its bylaw, holds that transaction of houses under it can only be done between members of Parsi community.When this was challenged before Registrar of Co-operative Societies, it took the view in an interim order that the bye-law restricting membership to Parsis was a restriction on the right to property and the right to alienate property and, therefore, was invalid in terms of Article 300A of the Constitution of India.Later this was upheld by the Gujarath high court.
When the case was appealed in supreme court , Soli J. Sorabjee, contended that under Article 19(1)(c) of the Constitution of India, Parsis had a fundament right of forming an association and that fundamental right cannot be infringed by thrusting upon the association, members whom it does not want to admit or against the terms of its bye- laws.
Can you please go through the above site for the crux of the argument and other similar cases.It also gives the detailed judgement.The judjges contended that “Thus, it is settled law that no citizen has a fundamental right under Article 19(1)(c) to become a member of a Cooperative Society. His right is governed by the provisions of the statute. So, the right to become or to continue being a member of the society is a statutory right. On FULFILLMENT OF QUALIFICATIONS prescribed to become a member and for being a member of the society and on admission, he becomes a member. His being a member of the society is SUBJECT to the operation of the Act, RULES AND BYELAWS applicable from time to time.
Thanks, lal. As per this judgement, it is lawful for a society to restrict membership on the basis of community and if the society has such a bye-law, people of other communities don’t automatically have a right to membership. The court essentially says that it may be desirable to prevent such bye-laws, but then the laws would need to be amended to make such prevention possible. Before this judgement, there were other judgements by the Gujarat, Maharashtra and MP High Courts that had ruled that such bye-laws were unlawful as they were repugnant to the Constitutional scheme of things. But the Supreme Court judgement obviously takes precedence.
Nothing, however, prevents states from enacting new laws or amending existing laws to prevent such bye laws from being legal. I don’t believe such bye laws are widespread though and yet the practice can be quite widespread, indicating that the solution does not lie in enacting laws alone.
@ AA Khalid
I agree that leaving religious discourse and education to the Mullah is the failing of all Muslims and it is producing disastrous results.
Question is how best to address this in an effective manner. Perhaps a topic for a different thread.
@ Kafir
Do you think this social segregation around caste lines or religious lines is an acceptable reality – even if it’s just in the context of apartment blocks and the foods that people consume?
Do you think like untouchability, this issue may pass with time as attitudes change – after all some Hindus have started to eat Pork?
Please read my earlier comment as to what prompted me to make the comment that I made. I was pointing to bigotry which unfortunately no nation is immune from including India. We see the violent effect of this in Pakistan…we have created our own tribal rivalries even though we are 90% from one religion.
You called me ignorant. Do you think those comments that I refer to from some Indian bloggers posting here are acceptable?
And yes, there is no same-same between India and Pakistan at the moment (in my view), the situation in Pakistan is many orders of magnitude worse in some important aspects. I think many Pakistani are disabused of that illusion even though they may have not visited India.
However, we are same-same too. The land of India was divided into three nations. We also are a part of this great sub-continent. I am proud of that and I naturally have empathy for the people of these nations. That is why I am interested in learning more, breaking down the physical and mental barriers between us. My focus first and foremost is fellow Pakistanis. However, this forum gives me a chance to interact with Indians and the occasional Bangladeshi which is an added privilege.
Ylh,
“Muslim in India only because India’s fine secular constitution does not force upon others definitions of its own making. ”
True, and one can also say that it has remained a fine document because of its people.
After all, two men claimed to have drawn inspiration from the same book. One wins a Nobel Prize and the other blows himself up.
Btw,
Moderators, could you please check why my comments are not posted due to which I have to keep switching between different flavors of Miya Ji. I doubt anyone can find anything abusive in my posts.
Well said bade miyan… And the one who wins Nobel Prize after being inspired from the Quran is declared non-Muslim by his country.
That is why A A Khalid’s project is doomed to failure.
I think the moderators would do well to post some links to where contributions can be sent for the flood relief. It sounds rather surreal to debate these issues right now.
Thanks.