Pak Tea House » Activism » Saving a drowning country needs an ideological shift
Saving a drowning country needs an ideological shift
Nasima Zehra Awan’s passionate post for the Pak Tea House
“You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques……..Religion is not the business of the State”. Thus spoke Jinnah, whilst addressing the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947.
Sixty three years later, this is what our honorable Chief Justice has to say: “Parliament with Unlimited Powers can secularize state” (Source: DAWN,Monday August 16, 2010)
Won’t that be a good thing, judge saheb!
At a time when our country is intellectually and morally bankrupt because of its moorings as a national security state built on the toxic teachings of Maududi, isn’t secularism the way to get out of this mess. Instead of spending tens of billions to support a failed national security state, “a fortress of Islam” if you will, wouldn’t Pakistan have been better off with sustained representative governments that could have gone past the Kalabagh dam issue and built provincial consensus for half a dozen other dams that could have greatly reduced
the current catastrophe.
Unfortunately for Pakistan, this Judiciary, like most of its predecessors follows the ethos of the bureaucracy-security establishment, not the parliament or gasp, the principles of law and constitutionalism. That would entail that
they ditch the prevailing sentiment, nay, control of Jamaat Islami at all the Bar Councils and actually allow the elected representatives of the people to draft and discuss legislation that would make Pakistan a functional state in the 21st century, not an faux Ommayad Caliphate of the 8th century!
The Judges and their media supporters and urban elite cheerleaders are obsessed with going after the elected leaders of one party and folk singers; the two actually have the same political powers in Pakistan today. The dare not go
after Jihadi sectarian leaders who have rendered Pakistan into a wasteland. The damages incurred by these Jihadis; thousands of Pakistanis killed including the targeting of professionals belonging to minority sects and religions, the tens of billions of destroyed property and lost investment is incalculable. These are the fruits that the State of Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has reaped by constructing itself in the vision of Maududi and Qutb.
However, in the chauvinist and elitest debates about corruption, there is NO mention of the billions that are taken at every budget without audit, the tens of billions taken from foreign powers who are subsequently vilified by the same and the trillions that are made by using the country as a corporate and real estate business entity. After all, how will this debate start while we continuously see ourselves not as a modern, democratic and secular state but as the
realization of the Islamist neurosis of failed ideologues who see a warped view of religion and not shared human values, as the basis for a functional society.In a theocratic construct, such debates are virtually impossible as they go against the core those who have alloted themselves the task of protecting an ideological state. Such a state cannot accept the views of secular nationalists
who vote for the ANP, PPP and BNP. The dominant narrative of the State that has been constructed since Partition, and which has clearly served us so well since then, cannot be challenged unless Pakistan moves towards full secularism.
Today, the world is sick of our militant adventurism to the extant that it has affected their donations towards our flood relief efforts. They are wary that their donations will end up with Islamist militias who do not have the interests of humanity at heart and who continue to kill soldiers whose countries constitute the chief donors to Pakistan. The only way to salvage Pakistan is to ditch our legacy as a security state and invest all our resources into literally saving the country from drowning. A crucial step towards that is an empowered parliament whose progressive legislation is not continuously being derailed by a compromised and politicized judiciary that sees itself as the reincarnation of the Qazis of Banu Abbas, Banu Ommaya and Emperor Aurangzeb.
Like it or not, Hon. Chief Justice, we need to become a secular state and if parliament has taken the first tentative steps towards that direction in the 18th Amendment, good sense needs to prevail. A drowning Pakistan can no longer afford the mirage of “strategic depths” in Afghanistan and Kashmir. What it really needs is clean water and food for the 20 million who have been rendered homeless and for non-controversial dams in the future.
Filed under: Activism · Tags: floods, Islamism, jihd, Maududi, Maulana Maududi, nation state, National, Pakistan, policy, Qutub, secular, security, strategic
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Azhar Aslam:
Thanks for the link and a good read. I do have questions about how to implement those reforms, how to get there, and what to do with the popular vote if the governance is not up to par from a still popular government.
This is a whole lot of new discussion and will completely sidetrack the current ones, so maybe we’ll pick it up some other time.
@ NSA
Oh Jeez, NSA!:)
kab tak dil ki khair manayen,
kab tak rah dikhaoge
kab tak chain ki mohlat doge,
kab tak yad na aoge
bita di ummid ka mausam,
khak urti hai ankhon main
kab bhejoge dard ka badal,
kab barkha barasaoge
ahad-e-wafa aur tark-e-muhabbat
jo chaho so ap karo
apne bas k bat hi kya hai,
hamse kya manwaoge
- Faiz
PMA wrote: I say your question is not genuine because it assumes that it is Pakistan Army that wants something from India. India-Pakistan disputes are between two countries. The two have to resolve them. It is that simple. Pakistan Army or India Army are institutions and instruments of their respective State. I am sure you understand that. Let the talks begin at any level of the two administration. The both sides know what they want from the other. Lets give Peace a chance.
There is absolutely nothing that Pakistan can get out of talks, what it has not got in battle. And there is absolutely nothing Pakistan can get in battle.
The only reason Pakistan wants talks is to get some acknowledgement, some legitimacy as a power of some consequence, which increases its worth in the eyes of its patrons, which means more money for the Pakistani Army.
The talks are not for solving anything, or for clinching peace. Otherwise there would have been no disruptions of talks allowed, be it with Kargil, Mumbai, or Qureishi’s manners.
Any peace between India and Pakistan would make Pakistani Army superfluous. We all know that Pakistani Army is an institution far bigger than one just having a mandate to protect against external aggression. Also making peace would entail Pakistani Army formally acknowledging its failure to secure any concessions from India. That would also sound the death-knell for Pakistani Army’s extraordinary privileges in Pakistan.
Pakistani Establishment is fully satisfied with forcing India to the talks table after some attack on India, and then playing offended and walking out.
Pakistan’s strategy for victory against India depends on a miracle, that the Naxalites may weaken India, or may be the next generation of Kashmiris would rebel against Indian rule, or there is some war between India and some other power.
That is the extent of Pakistan’s strategy towards India. Hope against hope, but no solutions.
Other than that Pakistan is playing only for time, time in which its elite, its establishment can make money sitting on top of an anti-India military machinery, and exploit its people.
If Pakistan has a different strategy, everybody here would very interested to know.
Let’s not pretend, that talks would lead to peace, or that the Pakistani civilian government has any real power to make peace with India.
Amidst this heated debate on the Minimum Deterrence Doctrine, it would not be entirely out of place to remind ourselves of another doctrine that the founder of Pakistan proposed about 64 years ago. In November 1946, he said: “The two states (Pakistan and India) will be friends and will go to each other’s rescue in case of danger and will be able to say ‘hands off’ to other nations. We shall then have a Monroe Doctrine more solid than in America.” This was Jinnah’s vision, which alongwith his vision of a secular Pakistan, awaits fulfillment till this day.
The two nations now have two choices – to continue to bask in the memory of three wars and the fantasy of more to come or to bury the hatchet and strive for a lasting peace.
AZW (August 20, 2010 at 11:54 pm):
When you first came on this site I supported many of your thoughts and many of them I still do. I think you are very thoughtful intelligent man. You and I are in agreement on many issues related to Pakistan and I firmly believe that we both have Pakistan’s best interest at heart. But post after post you go on a tangent and start blaming Military for all of Pakistan’s ills knowing very well that there are so many other bad eggs in the basket as well. You time and again bring in East Pakistan, Afghanistan and Kashmir without giving any consideration to the greater geopolitical circumstances behind these tragic events. I do not support military takeovers or its meddling in politics nor do I think that its leadership is without faults. But I do believe that Pakistan must maintain a robust and effective Armed Forces with ability to discourage and ward off any internal as well as external aggression. You seem to have problem with that. You think Pakistan exists in a vacuum where there are no other international forces at play. But if that is what you want to believe then it is fine. Lets move on. But please do not lecture me. Internet is an open medium. Anyone can register here and post their comments. But neither you nor I are obligated to answer each and every post or comment. I do not argue with most Indians who choose to comment here because I know that we are on different sides of the fence. What is the idea in arguing when you already know others firm position. Indians would have problem with Pakistan Army, that is understandable. What is there to argue. At closing I would encourage you to continue to post here. We must debate with each other issues important to our beloved Pakistan. Thank you and regards. PMA.
@no-communal
and what makes you think that mr khan is not an indian? i can tell from his use of words (“Auarangjeb”) and phrases that he is not pakistani. and, having seen more than enough of the rationalist kind of indian troll, and his friends in their several avatars, i know he is one of them. that is, if his nick wasn’t already a deliberate give away.
No communal
I am surprised that you didn’t get the little joke MK is playing. I think someone in Pune or Mumbai is rolling on the floor unable to control his laughter. Suffice to say that you are looking in the wrong place….
(Hint: don’t go by his last name but the other one….)
@bciv, Gorki,
Yeah, I see it now. Thanks. At the time I didn’t pay much attention to the name. Mainly because such language and threats are omnipresent.
Dear PMA Sahib,
thanks for your polite response. Although you did not answer my question, your evasion itself says a lot. Despite the fact that I put you on the spot, my intention was never to show you personally in a bad light.
I have said it before and will say it again that I respect your learning and your sensitive nature. Above all I respect you for the genuine concern you have for your people.
In that, you and I are alike. I too care deeply for my people. The difference is that for you the people who are yours are those who live within the boundaries of the nation state of Pakistan and perhaps other Muslims in the neighboring countries. As for me, the definition of ‘my people’ is, shall we say, a little more generous.
Nevertheless you are an asset to your country and Pakistan is lucky to have you.
I only hope that some day the historian in you will get past the patriot that holds him back so that you can see that most of us who ended up on the wrong side of the fence for reasons beyond out control, are not the enemy……
That perhaps we were never the real enemy……
Regards
Let me post a sudden insight that I got while reading an interview of Ahsan Butt on AfPak.foreignpolicy.com
Butt states exactly what Tilsim said – i.e that the India threat receded after 1998 when Pakistan acquired its nuclear deterrent. May I point out that these viewpoints are the perceptions of Butt and Tilsim based on the overt display of nuclear capability in 1998.
I need to post an Indian viewpoint because it is relevant to the issue of long lasting peace. I think Indians and Pakistanis need to understand where the other is coming from.
Actually the fact that Pakistan had probably developed a working nuclear bomb (using a tested Chinese design – it was reportedly even tested in LopNor around 1986) before India was known to India. India received its first nuclear threat from Pakistan in the mid 1980s and a second threat was conveyed during the Rajiv Gandhi regime. The fact that Pakistan had nuclear weapons was made clear to India in the 1980s. India knew it and the Pakistanis who needed to know, knew it.
That is why I say that both Butt and Tilsim are merely stating a public perception that Pakistan became safe from India in 1998. But that is only one half of the story. The deterrent was in place well before that.
It appears that some elements in Pakistan felt that 1998 not only marked “safety and security from the Indian threat” but also a signal that India could somehow be coerced and browbeaten using nuclear blackmail as the backdrop. The period after 1998 created in India a large number of horrendous newsworthy events where a Pakistani hand in terrorism was blatant and overt unlike the “Freedom fighters of Kashmir” who had been used from 1990 to 1998.
These events were
2007 – Hyderabad blasts killing 44
1) The Kargil war (1999)
2) The hijacking of Indian Airlines IC 814 to Kandahar and the resurfacing of Maulana Masood Azhar and Omar Saeed Shaikh (of Daniel Pearl fame)
3) A horrendous massacre of civilians at Kaluchak
4) Mumbai blasts in 2003 killing over 50
5) Bombs in multiple places in India many odf them the handiwork of people who now have been caught and were members of SIMI or HuJI – all have revealed information about Pakistani training and funding.
7) 2006 – Mumbai blasts killing over 200, Varanasi blasys killing 28
9) 2008 – the worst year yet culminating with 26/11 the Mumbai attacks which had a clear Pakistani hand.
The point I am making is that Pakistanis may have felt safe and may have the audacity to call the relationship with India as “uneasy peace” but that is not true from an Indian viewpoint. For Indians there is an undeclared war in progress. India has a huge mass of people who cannot be moved into one state of mind of hating or loving anyone in a day or a month or a year. But it is possible to move them into a state of collective anger by sustained attacks. But India is no Pakistan. Indians will make their leaders pay if those leaders do not implement the will of the people. And if the will of 1.1 billion Indians is to make 180 million Pakistanis suffer – that is bound to happen. Sooner or later.
Pakistanis who believe that there is peace between India and Pakistan are either in denial, or are not exposed to reality just like Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent seems to have been unknown (and not reassuring enough) to Pakistanis prior to 1998.
If Pakistanis desire to control those Pakistanis who are terrorists in Pakistan, they must simultaneously control those Pakistanis who wish to be terrorists in India. Any attempt to allow the latter to exist while the former are opposed will have a blowback. That blowback is already visible in many ways. You cannot have two standards for terrorists – telling them to take it easy on Pakistan while having a go at India. Jo Lahore mein gaandu woh Peshawar mein bhi gaandu.
No Indian is really bothered if Pakistan faces terrorism. Those terrorists are your babies. You need to check them. Not India or the rest of the world. Complaining that Pakistan is a victim of terrorism too is like saying that a suicide bomber is a victim of explosives.
@shiv
A great summary of the core issue!
I doubt that you will get a satisfactory response here though. PMA and other military fans here contend that Pakistani Army is a responsible and rational institution with the interest of Pakistani people at heart. He wouldn’t want to get his hands dirty with details. He is not interested in hearing how the Pakistani Army is pushing Pakistan into a collective suicide.
Tilsim, Bin Ismail, etc. in their optimism think that the Pakistani peaceniks can make a separate peace with India, even if the Pakistani Army is not on board.
@PMA
No, you are not obligated to reply to every post. A lot of nonsense is posted, which is best ignored.
My question was not, I hope, in that category. Please be so good as to answer if you can.
Your proposition that a Minimum Deterrent would guarantee peace sounds sensible enough. But that only postpones the answer to the question, or raises another one in its place.
Why is India perceived as a threat? Do you perceive the same threat from Iran your other big neighbour, or from Afghanistan? If India were not a threat at all, what then? A drowning nation, metaphorically speaking, might benefit from an ideological shift.
“What is the idea in arguing when you already know others firm position. Indians would have problem with Pakistan Army, that is understandable. What is there to argue.”
Yes we know each others position. But can we not argue about the best way to improve it. Now, if we agree that there is a vested interest in maintaining the hostility we would have taken a step forward.
The post concerns “Saving A Country” hit by a natural disaster.
“Rationalist” (RSS) is spewing venom against Islam… How are the two connnected. It shows his perverted mind… how RSS hate can blind a man’s reason… Rationalist seems to be the male counterpart of Shivsena Singer Lata Mangeshkar ! Shame on him.
I could have written on Hinduism too… tit-for-tat… but this is not the occasion. I dont want to stoop to his level… I would advise him to read Kanchi Iliah who describes hinduism as “Spiritual Aparthied”. I want him to reflect on those 2 words… and educate himself… SMS scholarship and abuse wont do any good. Hinduism is doomed. Who will spend on the Pundits in 2010. Hinduism is not possible to be practiced in these days of inflation. From birth to death, its expensive… (a man dies.. 2-3 trees have to go w/him for fuel.. or elese electricity)… what a waste.. The future of India and Hindus lies in CHRISTIANITY. Remove “reservations” and see how Maya becomes Mary in 24 hours…
Dastagir
“From birth to death, its expensive… (a man dies.. 2-3 trees have to go w/him for fuel.. or elese electricity)… what a waste..”
I woould rather be burnt than get blood drained out of me, start rotting, and be covered with insects. It’s just a personal preference.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. Even while going., the muslim enriches the SOIL that nurtured him during his stay on earth…. his coming… stay… and departure are ECO-FRIENDLY… bled him with the “universe”… and add to its harmony… His presence adds to the beautiful land-scape painting created by God.
P.S. This is a moment of huge tragedy. I have never seen floods of this dimension. I had heard of “togh-yaani”.. and what is being shown / read is really.. shocking.. and makes one numb. We are grateful to the Pakistani hosts of this site.. who allow us entry (without hassles).. listen to our responses.. and though our destinies might have different paths… we are spiritually connected (and will remain so)… and we wish each other well. We are human first.. and after that everything else. What pained me immensely, was that few people were trying to take advantage of the inherent goodness and well-manneredness of muslims (taking it as a weakness). Muslims cant be as “manly” as the low-caste Shivaji (who was not a Kshatriya… and Stabbed-in-the-back)… or as chivalrous as Babu Bajrangi (mob-violence)… So this new-found vegetarian viagra spewing venom IN A MOMENT of HUMAN TRAGEDY is introlerable.. Delete comments that show frustration and a desire to grab attention… Provocation should be dampened.. Bad-tameez… Bad-tehzeeb… in a moment of sorrow… you start abusing people… Uncouth pervert.
Rationalistic:
Islamic theory and indoctrination make it impossible for a muslim (esp. for a pakistani muslim who wishes to prove his muslimness to the arabic and turkish ummah) to be honest and sincere towards non-muslims, esp. to the hated-humiliated-hounded hindus.
The quislings of islam have grown from 0 to 500 million in the indian subcontinent. The hindu is endangered in his own homeland.
Take your one track communal spew some where else. You are no longer welcome to post at PTH any more. I will be deleting your comments from now on, and will ask other moderators to do the same for anything originating from you and your IP address.
Gorki (August 21, 2010 at 4:02 am):
Let us go along with your assertion that Military is the real power in Pakistan and any negotiation with Pakistan is meaningless unless done directly with Military Chiefs. Well Musharraf was there for nine years, why India if she wanted peace did not avail that opportunity. At that time the excuse given was that he does not represent the people. Now that civilians are in charge the excuse is ‘they are not the real power why to negotiate with them’. These are all excuses of a party that does not want peace. Then there is the excuse of terrorism. Terrorism is symptom not the decease. Make peace with Pakistan. Resolve all out standing disputes. Take the initiative. Terrorism will dry out. There is a common perception that Pakistan government especially its military runs the terrorist outfits in Pakistan. Let me share an open secret with you. It is the ordinary shopkeeper and the office worker who makes weekly donations that end up supporting these outfits. Make peace with Pakistan. Take the initiative. This is the time. We owe it to our people.
Hayyer (August 21, 2010 at 10:45 am):
Let me reverse the question. Why India is arming itself to the teeth. Is Pakistan a threat. Is China, the eight billion dollars trade partner a threat. Should India not first take care of its three quarters of a billion poor instead of wasting billions on nuclear weapons and secondhand retrofitted toys. Ask yourself these questions before talking about my ‘drowning country’. And have you thought about vested interests on your side.
PMA:
China is a very real threat, though the last skirmish was in the eighties. India is equipping itself to defend against China. It would be superfluous against Pakistan. Against whom was Zardari offering the services of the Pakistan Army? China is probably the second most powerful country in the world. She is your friend, our enemy, despite the trade now approaching 60 billion dollars. You read the Economist and you can read up on that in the latest issue.
I cannot think of any vested interest against Pakistan that is driving Indian policy. There are rabid communalists around, of all varieties, let me add, but especially powerful Hindu right wingers. Their concerns are domestic in the main though. No one is able to make a living of being anti Pakistan.
As for our poor of which we have the world’s largest number-improvements occur all the time. Remember we are spending less than 5% of our budget on defence, but China’s economy is four times ours too.
@PMA
With respect, this is ingenuous. If you wish to know why India arms against Pakistan, consult Major Amin; Air Marshal Asghar Khan; Air Cdre Kaisar Tufail; Brigadier Z. A. Khan – I could go on.
For your information, these are all decorated members of the Pakistan military.
Please go through their books. I would be interested if at the end of your exercise, you are able to report that even a single encounter was initiated by India (with possibly an ambiguous situation in 71).
With regard to China, whether or not you wish to acknowledge these realities, there are incidents on a regular and sustained basis, there is a Chinese military and infrastructural build-up in Tibet, and there is a re-positioning of Chinese short-range truck-mounted nuclear missiles to close to Indian borders. What does that sound like to you?
Gentlemen,
These back and forth conversations are great for filling up some idle time but I would venture that we have only one issue at hand and that is to generate ideas on how best to resolve our differences and keep the forces of extremism at bay. Both India and Pakistan still dominated to a certain extent by a liberal ethos. There is every hope still that a state of peaceful and progressive co-existance can be reached. This is not an opportunity that may last forever unless societal trends are reversed. My plea would be to use our time here on PTH and elsewhere to develop a comprehensive philosophy and innovative actions needed to reverse these trends.
We both face significant problems from the forces of extreme nationalisms whether they wear an Islamic civilisation or Hindu civilisation mask. May I remind people that India may not have the problem that Pakistan has with extremism as yet but the inroads seem to be happening there too at quite a pace in certain geographies.
I was saddened to see that the views of Savarkar are posted today by many of his followers posting on this board, 87 years after they were reported. To quote:
“Hindustan must be looked upon both as a fatherland (pitribhu) and a holyland (punyabhu). Muslims and Christians cannot be incorporated into Hindutva because their holyland is in far off Arabia or Palestine. Their names and outlook smack of a foreign origin. Their love is divided.”
—V.D. Savarkar in Hindutva: Who is a Hindu?, 1923
Does this sound familiar? Yet, this gentleman’s portrait now hangs in the Indian Parliament since 2003.
I point this out only to bring back our attention to our collective responsibility to focus on the true threats facing India and Pakistan as we know it. The multitude of disputes need to be resolved, not only because Pakistan’s security establishment behave badly by using violence as an instrument to change the stale air of the status quo but to take some of the wind out of the sails of extremists. The failure of liberals and moderate leadership would be a disaster of epic proportions against this backdrop.
Shiv wrote:
“No Indian is really bothered if Pakistan faces terrorism. Those terrorists are your babies. You need to check them. Not India or the rest of the world. Complaining that Pakistan is a victim of terrorism too is like saying that a suicide bomber is a victim of explosives.”
Mani Shanker Iyer, Indian diplomat and senior Congress politician wrote :
“I will instantly be told the difference is Pakistan was behind Mumbai 26/11; we are not behind the blasts and suicide attacks in Pakistan: that is a horror they have brought upon themselves. True. Too true. But by insisting on a mea culpa from the Pakistan establishment, which will never be forthcoming, are we not encouraging further outrages instead of working together to put a stop to them? And are we not rendering ourselves hostage to the very crossborder terrorism we ought to aim to neutralise?
Most Indians are sceptical of Pakistan’s capacity, let alone willingness, to end the terrorist menace, on the grounds that the Pakistan army and Intelligence are themselves breeding grounds for it. But to take such a monochromatic view of Pakistan is to seriously misread the situation. While there are elements in every segment of Pakistani society — army, intelligence, political parties, media, mullahs, and the aam aadmi — that bear an abiding hatred of Hindus and Indians, so too are there adamant anti-Pakistani Indians and communal elements in every section of our society. Diplomacy should aim at not letting such elements hold sway, and at expanding the constituency for peace that is there in every segment of Pakistani society, including the army and Intelligence.”
Tehelka Magazine, Vol 7, Issue 30, Dated July 31, 2010
Mani Shanker Iyer also wrote:
“We have much to gain from sustained dialogue; from expanding the ambit of interaction away from cruelty and callousness, to re-establishing in the subcontinent the ambience of a composite culture, the Ganga-Jamuna tehzeeb that was the hallmark of our civilisational inheritance till Partition. This emphatically does not mean the restoration of Akhand Bharat. It means that respecting the irreversibility of Partition, we learn to treat each other as human beings, brothers and sisters whom much more unites than divides. When an innocent child chases his ball across the border, should he be arrested? Should fishermen who have deliberately or accidentally transgressed an unmarked line in the sea languish in jail without trial for years? Should soldiers who fought a war long ago be incarcerated for decades thereafter? Should even intelligence agents wither away in our versions of the Bastille for years and years and years, till they go insane as so many have? Should jawans in hundreds die of frost-bite, almost none to bullets, in a non-war in Siachen? Is it really so impossible to draw a line down the middle of the Sir Creek to forestall a repeat of the 1965 war? Should not the Jhelum be used, as it was till 1947, as the principal route to carry the produce of Kashmir to their natural outlet at Karachi? Is that not what the Tulbul Navigation project is about? Why not build dams on the Indus rivers system that will share their electricity with Pakistan and wean us both away from 19th century technology for irrigation? Should hundreds of visa seekers spend night after night in the ditches outside visa offices, shivering in anticipation of being denied entry once again next morning? Should we be confining foreign holidays to the rich who can fly out to London and New York but deny train tickets and bus rides to the aam aadmi to see how things are in the neighbouring forbidden land? Should we not be free to watch Pakistani TV in India? Should we not be allowed access to their newspapers and magazines, as they should to our films and TV channels? Should every qawwal and ghazal singer first prove he is not a terrorist before bursting into poetry and song? Tell me, did Ajmal Kasab and his gang of monomaniacs collect visas before embarking for Mumbai harbour? What do we gain from heaping these humiliations on our people, generally the poor and abandoned victims of history, who find themselves born into divided families? Whose interest is served by routing everything we wish to buy and sell each other, through a smuggler or via Dubai? Why can’t two brothers invest in a Pak- India joint venture? Why must we spend thousands of crores on hate and next to nothing on friendship?
The India-Pakistan dialogue must be ‘uninterrupted and uninterruptible’, a phrase I have been flogging for the last 20 years
THIS IS not a litany of complaints against India or a list of grievances against Pakistan. It is a joint charge against both countries that while their respective elites argue their case in drawing rooms and TV talk shows, the “dumb millions”, as Gandhiji called them, are those who bear the brunt of allegedly intelligent, educated and ‘patriotic’ leaders being unable to work out a via media among themselves.”
Tilsim wrote:
“Hindustan must be looked upon both as a fatherland (pitribhu) and a holyland (punyabhu). Muslims and Christians cannot be incorporated into Hindutva because their holyland is in far off Arabia or Palestine. Their names and outlook smack of a foreign origin. Their love is divided.”
—V.D. Savarkar in Hindutva: Who is a Hindu?, 1923
Does this sound familiar? Yet, this gentleman’s portrait now hangs in the Indian Parliament since 2003.
In Islam, a Muslim is defined by the Kalimah – La Illaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasullullah!
V.D. Savarkar gave his views, on how he would define a Hindu. Everybody has views. Whereas the definition of Muslim is part of Islam, there was no definition for Hindu. V.D. Savarkar is offering one. One can accept it or reject it. What is wrong in offering definitions?
The point is that your quote by itself is useless in demonizing him, and thus provides no argument, why his portrait should not be in Parliament.
@Tilsim
Besides, since 1923, RSS has redefined the concept of Hindu. Hindutva is a cultural concept. Even Muslims, Christians and Parsis, who do not belong to Indic religions can still be considered Hindus by RSS, if they accept their Hindu cultural heritage, and do not reject their pre-conversion culture or their host culture.
If you do wish to demonize RSS, perhaps you should use some quotes by RSS leaders advocating violence against Muslims or Christians.
@ Raju Bhai
I know that you have trouble recognising hate speech.
@Tilsim
And I know you have trouble letting go of the desire to find mirror images for all that is wrong in Pakistan, in India including a mirror image of Pakistani terrorists and extremists.
You are grasping at straws to find a bogeyman in India, so that you and Indian liberals can unite against him, find comfort in collective siege from some extremists. It just doesn’t work in India like that.
@ NSA
What Afzal forgot to say is what Tarun Vijay said:
“because on one side there is Hindu civilization and on the other, there is no civilization, only barbarism”
Tarun Vijay is former editor of RSS publication, Panchajanya and columnist for Times of India.
It is what it is, I am sure some Indian muslims feel this is a better way and they will have to make their own bed and lie in it. What I see are parallels in how extremist ideologies are spreading their tentacles. The liberals have been too laissez faire. In Pakistan we certainly were.
NSA:
The RSS also set up a Rashtriya Sikh Sangathan for your information in Punjab. It aims to win Sikh votes for the BJP. The path out of the ghetto is not through Nagpur.
All Hindus don’t buy RSS theory. It is a clever trick to conflate nation with religion, but it doesn’t work.
There are over 192 members of the UN. By the standards of the RSS there should be at least 192 separate religions, actually more because there are about 245 countries in all.
Also, by RSS standards all those Europeans and Yankees cannot be patriotic because their faith arose in Palestine. Americans should be required to worship the spirit in the sky in charge of the happy hunting grounds, and Europeans various sorts of Gods depending upon location. Japan should classify its citizens into two classes, Shintoists and Buddhists, with the Buddhists in category two. The Chinese should now ensure that only Taoists and Confucians are trusted with matters of state. Borobodur and Angkor Vat should be torn down as symbols of alien faith and all elements of the Rig Veda composed outside Mother India (there is a theory that the Aryans brought it with them from Iran and Afghanistan). When God made man he also gave his a religion and a perfect nation to go with it. What poppycock.
Any Hindu or Sikh settled abroad should be automatically suspected of loyalty to India and therefore denied citizenship.
If however the RSS is preaching a new political theory of religious fascism you will have to argue it out with political scientists, along with other discarded social theories like racism or imperialism. Please don’t infect PTH with this sort of nonsense.
Tilsim wrote:
What Afzal forgot to say is what Tarun Vijay said:
“because on one side there is Hindu civilization and on the other, there is no civilization, only barbarism”
And why are the neo-Pakistanis (Talibanis) intent on proving him right?!
@ Raju Bhai
Yes, the ‘talibanis’ must be the reason why Tarun Vijay says what he says. He is just a puppy, really. Silly me.
@Tilsim,
I am sorry, Tilsim, but unfortunately a steady stream of sensational pictures and stories have a habit of tainting a whole people.
@Tilsim
//Yes, the ‘talibanis’ must be the reason why Tarun Vijay says what he says. He is just a puppy, really. Silly me.//
Interesting way of calling someone a son-of-a-bitch.
Clever you.
Well, if you make the principle universal how would it be?
To each people, nation, caste, language whatever, a separate religion?
Or is it Indian exceptionalism? The best Indians have their gods made in India. In foreign countries, peoples, languages, nations, castes whatever they have foreign gods but it need not be equal to the number of nations, castes, languages etc.
God represents himself to different peoples in different ways so that they can all fight each other over him. Not a good god, no. And he makes holy things and holy objects differently wherever he goes. It is the mark of the patriot to recognize only locally made objects as the authentic ones. Swadeshi in other words is not only good economics and politics but good religion.
Dear PMA Sahib,
You indirectly admitted that there is terrorism emanating out of Pakistan but rather nonchalantly dismissed it as a symptom of a India Pakistan dispute that will go away if only India will make peace on Pakistan’s terms. A cynic may even argue that in your way of thinking terrorism was like a bargaining chip, providing Pakistan with leverage. At least You did not seem to be troubled by it and I find it troubling.
By claiming that it is the common man in Pakistan who funds terrorism you seem to imply that the average barber, cobbler, clerk and schoolteacher are the ones who are behind the attacks on Indian teachers, clerks, cobblers and barbers? I find that very troubling, not the least for it’s obvious moral implications.
Even those not worried about such niceties as morality of making war on defenseless civilians should find it troubling, for by making this argument one opens the civilians in Pakistan to the charge of being complicit in the activity that according to the Geneva conventions is listed as a war crime (deliberately targeting civilians).
Leaving aside the niceties of the Geneva Convention, one will also find it hard to counter the argument that can be made by the opposite side (as was made by the apologists of the US nuclear attack on Japan in WWII and the Russian atrocities against the German civilians) that in a war where the civilians supported an organization that committed war crimes, there are no innocents and every one is a combatant, and so, fair game.
Let us even ignore all of the above arguments as hypothetical, we are still left with two very real and practical problems on our hands.
By fusing a national dispute between two nation states with the pre existing minor cultural and religious differences between them there is a high likelihood that the divisions between the majority and the majority will sharpen within the state itself and that those divisions will continue even after the national dispute is resolved. The state, by giving its sanction to it (whether overt or covert, or though acts of omission or commission) will then in time, raise a cadre of nationalist citizens, extremely intolerant of diversity in outlook and convinced of their own superiority. Does that sound familiar; and doesn’t that seem uncomfortably similar to fascism?
For a moment even forget India, by turning a blind eye to armed gangs living within your own civil society how will you stop the criminalization of your own body politic? Once your state surrenders its sovereignty to those most likely to use violence to settle any disputes doesn’t it setup a parallel center of power in the civic discourse? Why would anyone listen to the local Daroga if he can go to the local mujaheedin commander and get on the spot justice? Do you not feel that this will someday lead to a Lebanon like situation where the Hamas is more powerful than the elected government? Isn’t this how one lays the groundwork for a failed state? What is happening in Karachi may or may not be linked to what I wrote above but doesn’t the possibility that it may be, give the patriot in you sleepless nights or is besting India so important that intellectuals like you are willing to loose entire Pakistan but are not willing to let go of the mirage called Kashmir? You may not answer my post if you don’t want to but I hope it will give sincere but somewhat mistaken people like you some food for thought…..
Mani Shankar Aiyar was high commissioner to Pakistan in the 1980s and wrote a book called “Pakistan Papers”. It was in that book that he pointed out that the primary identity of the Pakistan is “Not Indian”. However most of the book is devoted to pointing out how trade between India and Pakistan would be beneficial to all.
But there is a degree of sophistry in the idea that Indians should ignore terrorism from Pakistan and somehow be friendly with those who want to be friends. This is because those Pakistanis who do not have the power to change the attitudes of the terror brokers of Pakistan want that fact to be ignored while they enjoy the fruits of cooperation and trade with India. This allows a whole lot of pretenders and insincere Pakistanis jump into the “good relations and friendship” bandwagon without accepting an iota of responsibility for the terrorism that emanates from Pakistan. This only benefits those people but is a problem for India.
There are two levels of relationships here. One is a state to state level and the other is a people to people level. The latter cannot be stopped although state relations can modify the intensity and quality of people to people contacts.
But within any given nation, the state (the government) is responsible for the people, and in a functioning democracy the people are in turn responsible for the state. In an oligarchy or dictatorship, the people have little control over the state.
If one state imposes sanctions or war on another state, it should be possible for the people who oppose that to change the attitude of their government. If the attitude of the government regarding war or sanctions do not change, it means one of two things:
a) The people do not want that change of attitude from belligerence to peace
b) the people want the change but are unable to control or modify the attitudes of the state.
If the former is true of Pakistan, it is pointless for India to seek good relations.
If the latter is true, it means that the Pakistani state/government should be brought down and power handed to the people.
The attitude that the people want the state to be aggressive to India but personally want to escape the consequences of that is the message that consistently comes out of Pakistan. That has already happened too long.
In the case of India, if Indians want belligerence against Pakistan – that is exactly what will happen. If Pakistanis (state or people) believe that Indians want peace but the Indian government is against peace – then surely my argument should hold for India too. Pakistan will have to attempt to bring down the Indian state and hand power to the people. And laughably – this has been exactly the aim of the Pakistani state for 60 plus years. And what we have today is the result of that. LOL
Geopolitics really is good fun. A few thousand die along the way – but hey what the heck – a free people will produce enough babies to replace the dead. No?
{Edited and deleted by moderator. You have been warned before. Your comments are to be summarily deleted from the forum from now on}.
PTH
Agar HRD aur taleem par dhayaan detey.. to yeh din dekhna na padhta.. woh log.. jinke paon mein chappal nahin thee… aaj oonche sur mein baat kar rahe hain.. dhamka rahe hain.. aur zaleel kar rahe hain. (Rough Tr. Had Pakistan invested in human capital, in education, production of goods & services (MUSLIM SWADESHI) silently.. without any NOISE… [Silent work like RSS to change the ground reality]; this day would not have come…when people are advising… those who walked bare-foot (minus shoes/chappals), a few decades earlier).
Nasim Zehra Awan : Your article came too late. Fascination for theology vis-a-vis consolidating the nation… improving life of its citizens… this rassa-kashy would ultimately lead to total destruction… with no one left even to moan and cry. It looks so weird.. President Zardari travelling while the country is facing a natural disaster (what sensitivity, Mr. Zardari)., a Prime Minister Geelani, a Fake Opposition Leader Nawaz Sharif (The Dealer), Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry (newly found freedom) and General Kiani (Boot-Boot-Boot).
When politicians are in power they are abused., and media suggests that “Boot” arrive. Once the boot takes over., the media laments for the “lack of freedom and democracy”… This fragile democracy.. this fake democracy.. with an empty treasury !
Khazana Khaali Hai (from 3 June 1947 – todate). Hamesha Khaali Hee Rahega., because the money goes into “Private/Personal Accounts”. The Vadera / Lambardaar of Sindh; the Chaudhry of Panjab.. and the other land-owners of Baluchistan and Pakhtunkhwa.. ARE NOT realising the fact, that if the situation continues as is.. their HIRED GOONDAS (Pvt. Armies) will not be able to stop the REYLAA (flood) of hungry people into their Palaces… These Vaderas and Chaudhris will die very violent deaths… The Goons will not be able to control the Mass of hungry people.
1. Land Reforms…
2. Education…
3. Saying Towbah to “Corruption” from Peon to Cabinet Secretary…
4. Some sense of Governance at the Executive & Judiciary levels.
But will the above happen ? The answer is NO. The Mother of the Aurobindo Ashram had predicted all of this… Pakistani Elite are not doing anything… they dont give a damn if Pakistan collapses tomorrow… cuz their homes (nests) abroad are well furnished.. and are awaiting them. They just need to take their bag and take the nearest flight to… (Via. Dubai., of course).
Half of the country is drowned. These floods will change the lives of Pakistan citizens.. and it is a time… and i am sure… they will sit below the sky… and reflect on what their life/lives have become.. I hope they take firm steps…
Poverty is not the issue at hand… Its about the mental make up. When one is faced with enormous difficulties… and one bears it with patience… one finds his salvation. Pakistan’s Salvation is Education… but will they find it… will the flood help them find it…
Test.
Gorki (August 22, 2010 at 3:09 am):
You asked me for a direct answer and I gave you one. One man’s Terrorist is other man’s Freedom Fighter. There are Jihadi outfits in Pakistan that go around and collect funds from the ordinary folks in the bazaars of Pakistan. Their stated aim is to liberate Kashmir from India. Now please don’t make moral judgements on my person. I have only stated my observations. You yourself know very well of the daily abuses carried out by the Indian Security Forces in Kashmir. Instead of escalating violence on both sides, I say to the government of India and to the government of Pakistan to sit down across the table and resolve all outstanding disputes and take the initiative away from the Jihadists. Now your post is rather long and full of rhetorics. I am not dismissive of you sir but you have to excuse me for not posting long responses. The arguments after a while become circular and loose meaning. Let the talks begin.
@PMA,
You are aware that the Punjab provincial government funds LT to the tune of hundreds of millions and that its current Chief Minister and Law Minister have made their sympathies for Jihadis loud and clear!
The times have gone, when one’s terrorists was freedom fighter for the other, anyone who will put arms for his political agenda should be called a terrorist, irrespective of race, religion, ethnicity or nationality….
We have suffered a lot for such so called freedom fighters, the moral equivalents to American founding fathers, and (as per some of my ultra nationalists fans of bearers of AK-47..) equivalent to our founding fathers…
I wanted to thank everyone for their comments as they were instructive and educational. When I see Pakistan drowning, one thing is very clear; we can no longer afford to go on as a garrison state with all the resulting power dynamics. These include a perenially powerful security establishment and its arms that are the Judiciary, sympathetic politicians, a jingoistic media and a degenerate elite.
The Mumbai attacks in 2008 were a massive blow, not just to India but to Pakistan. These attacks and the reaction to the Kerry-Lugar bill which was the first time that foreign aid was linked to supporting a nascent and struggling democracy that did not want to perpetuate war with India, should tell everyone who is calling the shots in Pakistan. For us to survive in this crucial juncture of our history, we simply cannot go on like this. Indians should realize that rubbing it in is not going to help. Many of us are well aware of this problem and are helpless. What we need India and the world to realize is that there is clearly a divergent narrative in Pakistan that simply does not buy into the false nationalism of the dominant group in Pakistan.
It is only this realization and its active promotion outside that will help us. This is the 21st century and Pakistan needs India and the World’s help to survive the current disaster. It needs India and the world to realize that it has been held hostage by those Jihadis for whom peace is the loss of a multi-billion dollar enterprise.
Some can refer to these murderers as freedom fighters just like a pig eating its own feaces can justify it as a gourmet feast. Then again, there is only this much lipstick that one can put on a pig….
“In the next century, nations as we know them will be obsolete and all states will be governed by some form of global rules and authority. National sovereignty wasn’t such a great idea after all”.
Strobe Talbot, president Clinton’s deputy Sec. Of State quoted in Time in 1992
Aliarqam, Ali Abbas and Nasima Awan,
Thank you all for your comments and understanding.
There is nothing more I can add for those of yours above except to say that words such as “one man’s terrorist is another mans freedom fighter” was an idea whose time has come and gone.
Let me indulge first in some cold unemotional calculations. Even as I sit to write this at an airport in an american city, the CNN is playing a clip of an interview with a Pakistani official with the anchor bluntly stating “The american public wants to know why you think the aid we will provide will not end up in terrorist hands…!” (CNN, 524 pm central time)
I find the question itself nauseating but it is not the fault of the anchor. This is the kind of damage such policies have done to the people of our region, in whose name this ‘freedom fighting’ is taking place. Pakistan does not have to get a certificate of good behavior from the US news anchors but they are not alone in this perception. Today, there is no single country in the world; not China, not Russia, not any Arab government or any other that will stand by this statement!
In the past the terror groups carried out spectacular attacks as much for it’s PR value as for it’s value of terrorizing the opponents. As things stand today, the PR value is in the negative. One can judge if there is any other tactical advantage left to such tactics that some of us advocate it as a policy knowing fully well that one misstep can bring about a nuclear war in our homeland.
Second, if I understand right, India Pakistan is supposed to be an international dispute. What is the meaning of nationalism today when millions of Pakistanis and Indians willingly live and are thriving not only in their native lands but as common citizens of countries such as the US, Canada, Europe, and Australia?
If there is any proof needed that in this age of global connectivity, it the bonds of shared ideas and values which defines our identity rather than nationality, it is here and now. I find myself more drawn to you three and many others on the PTH than people like Shiv, rationalist etc. It is people like you I would like to invite to my home, have my children meet and find inspiration from than those who cling on to outdated concepts.
Today, my heart hurts to see images of people driven from their homes by floods. It is not because I am such an angel but because, sitting here, thousands of miles from the place I was born, I see on TV screens, amid all the suffering, the sights and sounds of my own childhood, the faces are the faces of my people, their suffering feels like my own suffering.
I find myself a global citizen but the globe has not become one yet. It is divided into two camps, with one camp made up of you people, in the other camp are people like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin who are carrying out a vicious hate campaign against a decent man trying to build a place of healing and understanding in New York!
Today there are many in India, Pakistan who love to use words such as ‘freedom’ and ‘justice’. People like Gingrich and Palin also use such words very frequently. Those who really care about such things know that these words must be used carefully and that such words cannot be applied selectively. The 60 innocent dead in Kashmir cannot be avenged by 187 innocent dead in Mumbai, it only means 247 innocent dead!
“What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.
This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth.
All things are connected like the blood that unites us all.
Man does not weave this web of life. He is merely a strand of it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.”
-Chief Seattle (1786-1866)
”Some can refer to these murderers as freedom fighters just like a pig eating its own feaces can justify it as a gourmet feast. Then again, there is only this much lipstick that one can put on a pig”
well written nasima….
”What we need India and the world to realize is that there is clearly a divergent narrative in Pakistan that simply does not buy into the false nationalism of the dominant group in Pakistan.”
As much as we empathise with you,and want you to win your battles for the benefit of pakistan,south asia and indeed the whole world,I hope you will understand that a realistic position from our part will be to be ready to face any eventuality,that the ‘divergant narrative’ may never become the mainstream.
Gorki (August 23, 2010 at 4:11 am):
Obviously my efforts to explain to you the Jihadi Culture of Pakistan and justifications made by the Terrorists for their actions, no matter how wrong, have gone to waste. I have tried to tell you that the circle of violence in which Pakistan and India are caught up today must end. The two countries must come to a negotiated Peace Agreement. But in spite of my plea not to make a moral judgement against my person you have done exactly what I have requested you not to do. And sadly the author of this article Ms. Nasima Zehra Awan who I think has raised some important points have joined in. Her remarks like “a pig eating its own feaces can justify it as a gourmet feast” fall short of journalistic excellence. Someone had addressed her as “girl” and I condemned it. But her choice of words is not ladylike.
Then deviating from the discussion you have gone on for some length to say that one day nations will disappear and India Pakistan will become one happy Mother India. Indians and Pakistanis live happily as one big family in North America and Europe and Australia. So be it. What does that has to do with any thing. If Gorki Ji Maharaj wants to become a Cyber Guru with thousands of followers; so be it.
Sir at the end I will like to tell you that you don’t know me personally and I don’t know you personally. We only interact on this site. Hell I don’t even know your real name. I read your extended and sometimes irrelevant posts. But you often tend to get personal. What is that you want me to do. I have no idea what to say to you anymore.
PMA,
In short, are you suggesting that if India doesn’t give Kashmir, Jihadi culture in Pakistan will continue?
Mr. PMA,
Gorki has made no moral judgement of your person. His voice is a voice of sanity and moderation and hence it is attracting many supporters. Your voice is a fading voice and you will keep finding yourself isolated as more and more folks on both sides of the border who just want better and safer lives for themselves and their families will start seeing through emotional issues. ( I feel sad when I say this because I have a lot of respect for your wide reading and crisp articulation) You will pardon me if I find your hypersensitivity, that leads you to take offence to Gorki’s comments, where your name is not even mentioned, rather unbelievable.
Regards,
Ashu
Android Guy (August 23, 2010 at 7:07 pm):
No. What I am saying is that the respective Governments of India and Pakistan should get serious and resolve all outstanding disputes between these two countries. At present Jihadists have the initiative and public support. Take that initiative away from them and bring in an era of Peace.