Pak Tea House » Pakistan » What devoured glamorous Pakistan?
What devoured glamorous Pakistan?
By Vir Sanghvi
published here Express Buzz.
I wrote, a few weeks ago, about how much the attitude to Indians had changed in the West. Once we were regarded as losers, people who inhabited a desperately poor country, continually ravaged by famine or drought, incapable of making a single world-class product, and condemned to live forever on foreign aid. Now, we have the world’s respect and, more tellingly, the West’s envy as more and more jobs are Bangalored away from their high-cost economies and handed over to Indians who perform much better for less money.
That piece was prompted by a visit to London. This one too has been inspired by a trip abroad and by saturation coverage of the Pakistani cricket scandal in the press and on global TV channels. But my concern this week is not with how the West sees India.
It is with the transformation of the image of the global Pakistani.
I was at school and university in England in the Seventies and lived in London in the early 1980s. This was a time when Pakistan was regarded — hard as this may to believe now — as being impossibly glamorous. The star of my first term at Oxford was Benazir Bhutto. In my second term, she became president of the union and was the toast of Oxford. Her father was then prime minister of Pakistan and lucky students vied for the opportunity to visit Karachi or Islamabad as guests of the Bhuttos. They came back with stories of unbelievable hospitality and spoke knowledgeably about Pakistan’s feudal structure, about landowners like the Bhuttos, about an autocracy that had reigned for centuries etc.
Even on the other side of the ideological divide, Pakistan was all too visible. He had come down from Oxford nearly eight years before, but a former president of the union, the charismatic Trotskyite Tariq Ali was still the sort of chap who made English girls swoon. For her first debate as president of the Oxford Union, Benazir asked Tariq Ali to speak. He agreed but then, rather inconveniently, he was detained by the police on a visit to Pakistan. No matter. He phoned Benazir who spoke to daddy and — hey presto! — Tariq was out of jail and on a plane to England. Pakistan was that kind of country, the British chortled delightedly.
In those days, us poor Indians hardly ever got a look in. The Pakistanis were dashing, far richer (they spent in a week what we spent in the whole term), always going off to chic parties or nightclubs in London and charming the pants off the British (often, quite literally).
In that era, the Arabs had just emerged on the world stage (following the massive oil-price hikes of 1973/4) and the Pakistanis were almost proprietorial about them. A Pakistani graduate student at my college, even affected Arab dress from time to time and bragged that he had taught Arabs how to fly planes.
My college-mate was merely reprising Z A Bhutto’s philosophy: the Arabs were rich but they were camel drivers. They needed Pakistanis to run the world for them and to teach them Western ways. It was this sort of thinking that led to the creation of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), the first global Third World bank, run by Pakistanis with Arab money. For most of the 1980s, BCCI was staffed by sharply dressed young Pakistanis who entertained at London (and New York’s) best restaurants, hit the casinos after dinner and talked casually about multi-million dollar deals.
Their flamboyant lifestyle was matched by other rich Pakistanis. In his autobiography, Marco Pierre White, the first of the British super-chefs (he was the original bad boy and Gordon Ramsay worked for him), talks about the Pakistanis who were his first regulars. Michel Roux, then England’s top chef (three Michelin stars) would fly out to Pakistan to cook at private parties thrown by wealthy individuals. In the late 1980s, a friend of mine went to dinner in Pakistan and was startled to be asked to guess the vintages of three different bottles of Mouton Rothschild, one of the world’s most expensive wines.
In that era, Indians knew absolutely nothing about wine or French food and the few Indian millionaires who vacationed in London were vegetarians.
Pakistanis were sex symbols too. The first international cricketing stud was Imran Khan (who finished at Oxford the term before I got there) and his sex appeal was so legendary that even Benazir joked about it. Told that Gen Zia-ul-Haq called him the ‘Lion of the Punjab,” Benazir said, “Yes but Zia pronounces “Lion as ‘Loin’ and this is appropriate.” Years later when Imran spoke about his love for Pakistan, a British columnist sneered, “His heart may be in Pakistan but his loins are in the King’s Road” referring to a trendy (and expensive) London area.
Even Pakistan’s millionaires were more glamorous than ours. In the Eighties when the Hinduja brothers (“we are strictly vegetarian”) first emerged in London, the Pakistanis stole the show with such flamboyant high-profile millionaires in Mahmud Sipra who financed feature films and kept a big yacht in the South of France.
So what went wrong?
It’s hard to pin point any single reason but I can think of several contributing factors.
First of all, much of the Pakistani profile was based on flash and fraud. BCCI collapsed amidst allegations that it was a scamster’s bank. Mahmud Sipra left England with the Fraud Squad in hot pursuit even as he
declared his innocence from beyond Scotland Yard’s jurisdiction. Many big-spending Paksitanis turned out to be heroin smugglers.
Secondly, Indian democracy came to our rescue. The Brits who bragged about Bhutto hospitality and the Pakistan aristocracy missed the obvious point: this was a deeply unequal and therefore unstable society. When Bhutto rigged an election, this led to his downfall.
Thirdly, Pakistan signed its own death warrant by trying to out-Arab the Arabs with a policy of Islamisation. This reached its peak under General Zia who declared a jihad against the Russians in Afghanistan and invited Arabs such as Osama bin Laden to come to Pakistan to fight the holy war. Ultimately, fundamentalist Islam devoured what was left of glamorous Pakistan.
Fourthly, the world just moved on. Flash can only get you so far. In the end it is substance that counts. And plodding, boring India came up with the substance.
It is hard to think, when you look at today’s Pakistan team, that Pakistani cricketers were such sex symbols in India in the 1980s that Imran Khan was able to brag to an interviewer “Indian actresses are chickens. They just want to get laid” (In all fairness, Imran later said he had been misquoted.)
Get laid by today’s team? You must be joking.
Even the Pakistani playboys who are still around no longer seem exciting or glamorous. Poor Imran just looks tired. And the rest look like Asif Zardari — pretty much the archetypal glamorous Pakistani of the Eighties — though perhaps not as disgustingly sleazy.
Of all these factors, two remain the most important. A nation created on the basis of Islam was destroyed by too much Islam. And a nation dedicated to democracy flourished because of too much democracy.
More at: www.virsanghvi.com. Follow him at : twitter.com/virsanghvi
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hmmmmm just seems like an Indian gloating over how much better they are than a country 8 times smaller than them!
Khair, so what!
As a Pani-Patti-born Indian and naturalised proud Pakistani British citizen, I fully endorse the views expressed in this article.
There was a time when diversity was tolerated by Pakistanis on the streets of Lahore, Karachi and even Edgware Road London, alas no more! Arab Thobs,Niqabs and beards have defeated the north-Indian Punjabi Muslim civilisation of Pakistan that I once knew.
A Abbas (October 14, 2010 at 8:14 pm):
“The North-Indian-Punjabi-Muslim-Civilisation-of-Pakistan”
Too bad brother Abbas on his way from Panipatt to Britian did not stop to see rest of Pakistan. There is more than “Punjabi-Muslim-Civilisation” to Pakistan.
It is not Islam..it is mullahism’s blessings to Pakistan. the same mullahs whose forebeareres were Nehru’s proteges back in the 1940s!
I guess there is no alternative/replacement to discipline – both individually and as a society. We have seen it in Japan, China (who were almost devastated) and staged a magnificent comeback.
India has been disciplined – with democracy and education. This will hold us in good stead. I guess Vir Sanghvi couldnt have said it better.
I am sure Srilanka and Bangladesh are headed there. If democracy is sustained in these two countries, I am sure they will be highly healthier by the next 2 elections.
As regards pakistan, notwithstanding the like- to- like comparison with its brethren from the subcontinent, yet lack of discipline has thrown it all away
Dump the clergy, sustain democracy and education – I agree completely.
//the same mullahs whose forebeareres were Nehru’s proteges back in the 1940s!//
not sure how this is related to the article. Nehru was one of India’s all time best secular leaders. Perhaps, excepting his foreign policy towards China and his decisions on Kashmir, not one decision went against India in the long run – be it Hindu reforms, education, health reforms, Public sector undertakings et al the list goes on…Not sure how mullahs became Nehru’s proteges I dont see any connect
Prasad
I think Pak will get there too, it will take it longer but slowly but surely it will get there, all we have to do is look across the border for what democracy can do… i am sure in the next few years mullahism will be defeated… but for that we need also to educate our people…
However now ppl in Pak have a lot more awareness and access to technology… the old system will die out… expriments with religion have failed and people know this… the only way forward is with democracy!
Amen
Glamour? Since when has glamour started figuring on a serious forum. If glamour mattered, than Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian would together be far more important than the whole of India
Just my opinion, apologies to those that take their glamour seriously…
an good article – Pakistan is on its knees today because every government, whether it’s military or civilian, in political expediency, were always frightened of the Mullahs and religious groups that spawn hatred. They have sought to appease them, control them , do deals with them and failed , and now the chickens have come home to roost.
But the leaders and small monopoly of ruling families are not the only ones to blame – the public that tolerate them ,the judiciary which suddenley wakes up to the word human rights when it concerns a terrorist and the media which makes heroes out witches such as affiah are all to blame.
It wasn’t just the people from the 80′s but from the inception of Pakistan where many were lauded internationally.
People like Sir Zafarullah Khan, Gen Ayub Khan, Bhutto and many others were highly regarded as enigmas.
Time Magazine wrote in the late 50′s that Pakistan had earned world respect with its attitude.
Shamefully, the country fell to Mullahs, starting with Bhutto who utilized the Pan Islamic card to much negative effect. Mard-e-Momin then went on to destroy the social fabric.
I think Vir was trying to say that Pakistan gradually lost touch with it’s India.
He forgot to mention Agha Hassan Abedi and how he was jetting around the world with the likes of Nixon.
We still own Roosevelt Hotel in New York and much more, just need to set our train on the right track again.
The original Pakistani culture, which was just another of the myriad variants of north Indian culture, lost its mooring in its attempt to become “Arabicized” and more importantly “not India”.
This “not India” attitude made it loose the essentially secular tradition of 5000 years of subcontinental culture, while propeling it in the decidedly less-civilized direction perhaps more suitable for the nomadic Bedouin mileu of Arabia. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water!
Not irreversible, but neverthless hard to reverse.
humbly
Ahmed
Brave article to publish here. It was entertaining on Express Buzz (original source). On PTH it seems scorning and dismissive. A similar article on India would have had 150 comments by now
Disagree with the thesis of too much Islam destroying Pakistan. Too little attention to the problems of the people – Islam or not – is destroying Pakistan. The Islam crutch to explain Pakistan’s descent is an intellectually lazy one. What you need is more Shahbaz Sharif’s, not fewer Hafeez Saeed’s.
(“we are strictly vegetarian”) … the world now is agreeing to the virtue of being vegetarian and the trend is catching up fast.
thks to resurgent and shining India
Yawn.
We are still better looking, sexier and more flamboyant than the lalas.
The world saw the reality of India in CWG. With democracy we will so outbid outwit you that you’ll put the Hindu back in the Hindu rate of growth.
@YLH: We are still better looking, sexier and more flamboyant than the lalas.
Yeah agree. And with the Bongs being sent on their way in ’71 the chikna quotient went through the roof. So what if a decent part of that is some handsome bearded savages and their AK-47′s?
” … that you’ll put the Hindu back in the Hindu rate of growth.”
Very true. Very true. These folks at the Economist must be smoking some strong stuff eh?
“The world saw the reality of India in CWG”
..yes, the world saw the CWG reality but one asshole is yet to recover from his delusion!!
Sorry Kid….but you will have to take your shit-sniffing nose elsewhere…CWG have been a success, much against your hopes!!!
Forget CWG, next time do tell us when is Pakistan ready to host even a simple cricket series that is already not fixed
If a Pakistani talks of economy and sports series, then there cannot be a bigger joke than that
Pakistan have to comeback. It is destined to be successful. A true nature of its public (hospitality, cheerfulness and, optimism) may be suppressed but never withered. It will follow what is its true legacy not what Arabian nomads have been following. A fool only put his neck out on and think of its permanent failure. She has remarkable record of coming from behind in the past and so will this time too.
India is a big country, it is like a Jumbo Jet/Airbus which requires big runway to take off and which just now got some momentum but Pakistan is like STOL aircraft, requires short take off. So it was no surprise that when India is still on runway, Pakistan has already took off.
@YLH
Stop making a fool of yourself with your comments. Forget all about India shining etc. Look at CWG , people from the un-shiny India , especially women have got us medals.
and you often want to dismiss India as just an inch ahead of Pak. Look at the CWG medal tally and you would realise India is not just IT Boom. It has reached a sustainable level of credibility and worth.
Meanwhile you may want to gloat in CWG blunders. I won’t disturb you.
“We are still better looking, sexier and more flamboyant than the lalas” … Ya sure with kalashnikov in one hand and the book in the other
“With democracy we will so outbid outwit you that you’ll put the Hindu back in the Hindu rate of growth.” … if only wishes were horses
Typical Indians…. If my comments did not hit home you would not be acting like a bunch of shrieking ladies would you?
I suggest you read International Herald Tribune’s editorial today. Maybe some sense about your “growth” rates might still prevail… there are a lot of smart people in India who are also worried about these boom-bust cycles.
But such logic cannot make sense to the average Aditya who is too much of a scoundrel to make sense of the world or economics and is subject to bleating cows singing “India shining” morning to evening.
Moniems,
Don’t try and earn brownie points at my expense. If Indians are humor-deficient, atleast you should know better.
Next time you want to kiss Indian rearends and prove yourself the voice of reason, don’t drag me into it.
1. The Punjabi dominated army has misled Pakistan into paying a very heavy price for its compulsive aversion towards India and the fixation on Kashmir. Islam has only been used as an excuse to rally the masses to this dubious cause.
2. During the recent tragic floods under the spotlight of international media coverage, the world discovered that Pakistan has mostly failed in the painstaking task of nation building despite numerous opportunities over the past 63 years. Consequently the neglect of the common citizens became obvious as forgotten millions of helpless poor came streaming out into the open having lost their homes and livelihood to share their sorrowful plight with the whole world. Within weeks after the flood waters receded the poor have been once again forgotten and left to fend for themselves.
3. The Punjabi dominated army denied Pakistan its birthright of democracy right from the start. This has resulted in the gradual disintegration of the federation. At present Balochistan is determined to break free of the ruthless Punjabi military domination and its ongoing genocide. Others nationalities may follow unless there is a fundamental change in Pakistan’s power structure.
4. Judging from the endless political mudslinging as reported on Pakistan TV the many westernized elites and self serving politicians who run Pakistan today seem oblivious of the great dangers posed by their continued neglect of their common citizens. The Punjabi dominated military continues to grow like a cancer consuming ever increasing share of dwindling resources.
5. An unstable nuclear armed, jihad spouting Pakistan is a threat to the entire region. Such threats are almost always neutralized for the common good. The world is inevitably moving to the incessant drumbeat of economic growth and social enrichment. Pakistan cannot ignore this reality. I hope Pakistan wakes up in time – Jago! Jago! has to be more than a mere slogan.
Watty,
This is I completely agree with.
I really think many Indians are getting too smug about their modest success in recent years. They need to bear in mind these facts about Pakistan:
1. It is a country with a much much smaller population (10% of India’s). And history and common sense tell us that smaller populations are easier to get educated and make prosperous.
2. It is a country with lots of natural resources and the people are quite capable, if you take their obsession with their religion being the only true one and one that everyone else should convert to, out.
3. Until the 90s, Pakistan trumped India in each and every human progress indicator.
If they get their act together, with such a small population and fewer internal divisions (like caste, language, religion), they should easily be able to propel themselves and become another Turkey. So let us not get too smug and cocksure. Folks like Vir should visit Pakistan to see for themselves that even with all their current problems, their civic facilities and general situation on the ground is much better than your average Indian town’s.
Of course, getting their act together would require losing the overzealousness and extremism of new converts to a religion trying to prove themselves which they exhibit, losing the need to identify themselves as “anti-India/Hindu” and nothing else, and dismantling the feudal structure. When this will happen is anyone’s guess. Blogs like PTH are definitely signs that it is happening.
And as a Mumbaikar, I’d be happy to see such a Pakistan in my neighborhood where we’d be like Canada and the US are to each other for simple common sense reasons:
- a prosperous and stable Pakistan would buy more stuff thus creating more jobs all around including India, they would sell more stuff thus lowering prices for everyone.
- India would be free of terrorist attacks emanating from Pakistan, thus making our lives more secure and safe.
Other minor reasons are:
- India and Pakistan cooperating in world forums would make an impact on critical developing world issues such as the environment, education, poverty reduction, you name it.
- Indians would have a land route (railways, highways etc) to the Middle East, Europe and Central Asia. Pakistan would have a land and shorter sea routes to IndoChina and farther east. This would benefit both countries enormously.
I really hope the two countries aren’t condemned to repeat the last 60 years which have been unnecessarily harmful to both.
It’s a dream, but that’s ultimately where all reality begins – with a vision.
But on topic, Indians should stop being so smug and self-congratulatory because it smacks of low self-confidence that one needs to beat one’s chest about such modest gains. It doesn’t suit us. And besides, much better to compare ourselves with countries like China which started off where we were in 49 and are far far ahead of us today.
Pakistan is a country with a lot of talent. It is just that a handful such as the Taliban have destroyed our image and we just need to fight them down for a safe tomorrow.
Test
[YLH, I mean no disrespect to you. I have learnt my lesson. Please let a lively debate ensue.]
The most devastating mistake we made was to ignore the advice of our founding father. We are paying for it now. We have gone so far on the wrong path that it will be almost impossible to return to the right one in a hurry.
The second most devastating mistake is the HATRED for Hindus we still carry in our hearts. (This HATRED is seen in some comments on PTH). Even a child brought up by decent parents knows that hatred consumes the hater and does no harm to the object of hatred. We have suffered grievously because of this. A friendly India is something we still desire, but what have we done to deserve it? Sending terrorists to kill ordinary Indians and some Christians and Jews in Mumbai will help us get Kashmir, and a friendly India? Is it not this HATRED that propels us towards such condemnable actions? When are we likely to start behaving decently?
We have tried many times from 1947 onwards to snatch away Kashmir by force, but have failed miserably at every attempt. We have had to face defeat for all our adventures up till and including Kargil, and had to bear the humiliation of our army surrendering to India in East Pakistan. Yet, anyone in Pakistan will tell you that our army is the strongest in the world, and an army of “hindus” is no match. Carrying a feeling of exaggeratedly high opinion of ourselves can only make us complacent and weak. As far as India is concerned, China is a more important threat. We are only a nuisance because we have so many terrorist factories.
Do we remember that we signed the Tashkent agreement after Indian army came knocking at the doors of Lahore in 1965, and the Simla agreement to get back 96000 of our soldiers from Indian POW camps in 1972, and that there was a Lahore declaration just before Mush booted out Sharif? Not many Pakistanis even know what commitments our nation undertook in these. When a nation forgets the promises it makes in international agreements, it is bound to lose respect and trust. Is it fair on our part to expect India to overlook these? If only we had behaved responsibly and fairly we would not be in this situation; the international community would listen to us when we shout our throat hoarse in the UN every year.
In my humble view, we made a very serious mistake by disowning our cultural heritage. We were Indians before we became Pakistanis. (And, we must accept that our ancestors were not always Muslim). When we were Indians, the 5000 years old cultural legacy that India boasts of was ours as well. Even our national language, Urdu, is a product of Indian culture. (Urdu, a synthesis of Hindi and Persian, could not have come into existence except in India). We missed out on this because we hated India, and anything Indian. A very young nation with not much by way of culture has its own shortcomings.
I strongly feel we need to look inwards. We must learn from our past mistakes. We must think about the reasons why we are not a nation trusted or taken seriously by others. We should not remain dependent on US or China. It could prove very costly in future. We need to stop blaming others for our misfortunes, and become a bit humble. It is extremely important that we develop a strong and moral national character we can be justifiably proud of.
The easiest way, of course, is to do nothing and go back 1400 years.
The birth of Pakistan envisaged as a homeland of Muslims of India. India and Pakistan were not expected in even a wildest dream to become hate mongers and blood thirsty for one another.
Sadly it has happened. More hatred with India pushed the Pakistan into the lap of China, which was very happy to receive to neutralize India (as now USA wants to push India against China).
One realty check, If Indians think that in near future Pakistan will break away or collapse then ………please visit to Doctor, I’m sure it will again bounce back,or for that matter if Pakistanis (mainly Jehadis)…..if they think that they’ll snatch away Kashmir by war or proxy war, I’m sorry to say…….they’re living in false paradise.
Realty is that Kashmir is so important for India, for its secular credential, for its strategic location, for the world to show the power of its secularism and liberalism and democracy that it will never accept its so called Azadi for next 600 years. It may in future will bargain out a few squire/km but not whole of Kashmir.
So keeping in mind above facts, we should mutually reconcile with the present and find a path to live in prosperity, peace and harmony and enjoy the life and progress of modern science and technology.
With democracy we will so outbid outwit you that you’ll put the Hindu back in the Hindu rate of growth.
And pigs will fly!
“We are still better looking, sexier and more flamboyant than the lalas. ”
Awww.. So this is what it has come down to..Flamboyant? What flamboyant?
For the record, you are no Adonis reborn yourself.
The way forward…
I recently discovered “Live with Talat” a TV program anchored by Mr. Talat Hussain which can be viewed online @ pkpolitics.com Mr. Hussain is a remarkable TV journalist who has taken his program out into the real world to enable the ordinary citizens of Pakistan an opportunity to speak directly to the world. I was impressed by the dignity and pragmatism with which the common citizens of Pakistan view their difficult lives after the floods and the response of the society. If Mr. Hussain were to tour the vast heartlands of India he would discover striking similarities in the concerns of the ordinary people. All this India vs Pakistan rhetoric seems to be the idle preoccupation of the privileged few on both sides of the divide. I hope we can listen to the voice of our common citizens and work together to lift their burden.
India and Pakistan working together can achieve the lost grandeur of our great and ancient subcontinent as some of my friends have already commented here. Let us enter international forums with joined hands. That is my dream.
Straight-Talk
“Realty is that Kashmir is so important for India, for its secular credential, for its strategic location, for the world to show the power of its secularism and liberalism and democracy that it will never accept its so called Azadi for next 600 years.”
This is interesting. This implies that Bharti secularism is fake if it depends on Kashmir staying. Barbari masjid decision by the courts has already put a nail in the heart of Bharti secular pretensions.
Parvez :: One rubbish being complimented by another. Indian part of Kashmir will stay in India not for secularism but for the very integration. Whilst we recognise it, you will drum up islam and try to retain fragile parts with a hope that religion will ultimately come as a uniting force to your rescue. Unfortunately it wont. Policies will however help.This is exactly the case with Kashmir as well..eventually they have to integrate there is no other option
Prasad,
Incoherence is a Bharti characteristic that I don’t envy.
Chhote Miyan
“We are still better looking, sexier and more flamboyant than the lalas. ”
Awww.. So this is what it has come down to..Flamboyant? What flamboyant?
For the record, you are no Adonis reborn yourself.
Pakistani Punjabis look the same as Indian Punjabis. Pushtuns and Baluchis probably look better, but then you have to first shave the beards. Which is impossible. Who’s left? Sindhis. Are they particularly good looking? I don’t know. Plus they are part of our national anthem too.
The look quotient of average Pakistani girl is higher though. Why? There’s no complicating factor of beards.
NC,
“probably look better, but then you have to first shave the beards. ”
I don’t mind the beards, but we hardly get a look in anyways; they blow themselves before we have a proper look at them.
“Pakistani girl is higher though. Why? There’s no complicating factor of beards.”
Hmm..not too sure about the beard part, friend. Some, of course, are strikingly beautiful. I am really saddened by these periodic moronic comments by Ylh. These “lala” type comments have become so generic that they cease to be offensive. If this is what we get from the supposedly “enlightened” class, well, god save us all! I suggest we should all watch the Indian women win the 4*400 relay gold medal. What a proud moment for the women from our subcontinent! The crowd, as usual, went berserk.
amidst the violence, we tend to forget how peaceful some of these regions were. NWFP, especially, was at the forefrotns of a nonviolent movement. I ahve an entry on it: http://costofwar.wordpress.com/
Absolutely agree with Arjun.
The tone of the article made me wince. Anyone reading too much into it must also consider the following words.
“But on topic, Indians should stop being so smug and self-congratulatory because it smacks of low self-confidence that one needs to beat one’s chest about such modest gains. It doesn’t suit us….”
well said.
Regards.
@Parvez
“This implies that Bharti secularism is fake”.
So you’re on same page with BJP and Shiv Sena. They called it as pseudo-secularism. You should remember that India being so diverse, vast, multi lingual and multi ethnic that it has no other way but to remain secular(suggestion of Pakistan also). Either in your word “Fake secular” or in our hardliners word “Pseudo-secular”.
If breaking of one mosque has put you doubt on Indian secularism then see in your very own Lahore, how many mosque you’ve demolished only for widening of roads and construction of your capital city Islamabad in 50s and 60s. Same is true for your mentor, Saudi Arab, they also have demolished many mosques for the sake of modernization. Have you pointed out that? sadly you can see all this in India because it has Hindu majority population.
Further there was no prayer conducted at Babari mosque for last 63 years, while in and around the same place, Hindus were worshiping for last 2000 years and more…….. and you still consider it Babari maszid……..then I’ve only to say, “Find out answer for following questions in your holy books”.
1. You call it mosque if there was no prayer conducted and it has been abandoned?(Prayers has stopped since 1947)
2. You call it mosque if other religions people worship inside there?(I myself have seen in Jun 1992, just 6 month before its demolition)
3. You call it mosque if it has been constructed on others worship place?(It has been accepted by Indian court that material and pillars used for construction of Mosque were of temples and Archeology Survey of India found the remains of temple beneath mosque)
Note: Matter subjected to court was only for deciding the ownership of land not for deciding whether it was previously Mosque or Temple.
@ Parvez
I’m staunch believer in democracy and secularism even with all its loopholes and unlike my others fellow commentators, I criticize my democracy for lake of penetration in remote places , lake of empowerment to poor and tribal and being dominated and hijacked by rich. The fruits of democracy still not reached in tribal areas of Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Orrisa and Bihar other wise this Naxal problem would’ve disappeared.
There are still discrimination on the basis of cast (by high cast villagers but not by Government) and Absolutely no discrimination on the basis of religion(there votes are precious in election). These are the checks and balances of democracy. Even if you want, but can’t do.
Straight-Talk,
I’m an outsider but I know a few things about law. If it was a temple why this was not settled when the Brits were ruling. In any case, it is a symbolic case between you guys and Muslim minority. It is what they think and feel should be important. I’m glad that I’m not part of the equation.
I heard that Taj Mahal was also built on top of a temple. In such a case I would be willing to remove your burden for a small fee. Let me know if we can make a deal ahead of time.
“Typical Indians…. If my comments did not hit home you would not be acting like a bunch of shrieking ladies would you?”
No, they did not hit home. Not if the comments came from a whining loser who happens to reside in an apology of a country.
“I suggest you read International Herald Tribune’s editorial today. Maybe some sense about your “growth” rates might still prevail… there are a lot of smart people in India who are also worried about these boom-bust cycles.”
Why don’t you confess that you are very selective in your reading habits. I can throw back ten links at you from Economist, Fortune or Forbes that have great stories on India – or just ask you to go back and read International Herald Tribune again. But this is hardly an intellectual debate. Rather, I am showing an asshole his place in the world when he is caught pants down croaking lies and un-truths about others before putting his own house in order.
“But such logic cannot make sense to the average Aditya who is too much of a scoundrel to make sense of the world or economics and is subject to bleating cows singing “India shining” morning to evening.”
Better to be a bleating cow then to be a pathetic pig wallowing in shit from morning to evening professing doom, gloom and despair. Good that you can make sense of this world and economics. Suggest you get down to work – your country needs these skillsets urgently.
And, not for the last time, India has a great growth story that I am not at all aplogetic about. Deal with it.
@Parvez
“I heard that Taj Mahal was also built on top of a temple. In such a case I would be willing to remove your burden for a small fee.”
Too willing, perhaps. Is there already a plan?
Arjun,
Your post has too many “Ifs” and “Buts” to carry any meaning at all.
Gorki,
I understand your need to be a do-gooder at the expense of everything else – but alteast stop being a waste of time.
There is no gem of an insight that you provide when you say that Indians should stop being smug and self-congratulatory. That India has a huge development backlog goes without saying – and everybody is aware of it.
Go and pick up any news magazine or switch on a TV channels and look at how this issue is debated threadbare – including Vir Sanghvi’s.
However, that hardly means we should take dictation on economics and politics from an asshole who belongs to a country which is describes as a bleeding ulcer, international migraine or Nuclear Wal-Mart by leading politicians, international instituions and analyst firms. Try to have some self-respect before you think of running down your country just to appear Mr. Good Boy.
@Parvez
First of all if you people leave our Muslim brethren alone then there will be absolutely no problem. Without outsider interference, they were able to bent rightly or wrongly the Rajiv Gandhi government on making constitutional amendment on Shahbano case. They’ve their own personal law, there own Madarsas. Score of Mosques constructed everyday in India. There is no whatsoever any shreds of whining anywhere in India. You people although raise slogan of “Islam in Danger” when an abandoned mosque is erased but you never suggest these people to vote for those who care for them, who promise for modern education, there employment and better opportunity.
And of course Taj Mahal, first of all Taj mahal is not a worship place, neither for Hindus nor for Muslims. It is only a tomb a Maqbara. Then it was not built on the place of Hindus most revered God Sri Ram’s birth place. Claim of Taj Mahal being in place of temple is absolutely non starter and can never be accepted. It was an act of those ignorant people who also claim that Shah Jahan had cut the hands of the people who had built this monument.
You can not compare any nondescript place with birth place of Sri Ram. What happens if Hindus start claiming that Makka mosque was an ancient temple of Hindus and the Stone inside that mosque is of the Ling of Bhagwan Shankar. Can you still compare Makka mosque with any other mosque and leave it for Hindus. My answer is big NO!!! But the birth place of Sri Ram…….. you know even Indian Muslims are ready to give away the claim if it can be proved that mosque was the actual place of birth of Sri Ram.
Since Quaide Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah was allowed to die on Frere Road, Karachi in 1948 in a broken down van… Pakistan has been ruled mostly by corrupt and perverse (and worse) bureaucreats and politicians.
Hallelujah!
There has been no glamour, just clamour in Pakistan. India has left us a million cultural miles and light years behind.
@PEER SCHAMWHOREISCH RIDZVAUN AL-MURTAZA NAQVI-ALBUKHARI
I am in complete agreement with you, but I wish you had left the following out:
“There has been no glamour, just clamour in Pakistan. India has left us a million cultural miles and light years behind.”
Not that you are wrong, but I have never understood why we compare ourselves with India. Why must India be the benchmark against which we measure our achievements or lack thereof? In fact, I am of the view that we never compare ourselves with anyone. We must aim higher than any other country in the world. Let India become what it can. We have to be among the top most nations in the world. That is the kind of spirit with which we must move ahead. (It is, however, a separate matter that our path forward is extremely difficult).
The other reason why I feel this way is what I notice on PTH. Whenever “India”, “Hindu” or “lalla” words enter our discourse, we land up in a maze of inanities. We somehow derive a kind of sadistic pleasure in showing India in poor light. As a result we forget what we are actually discussing. I wish these words were out of our dictionary.