Pak Tea House » Democracy, human rights, India, Islam, Islamabad, Kashmir, Uncategorized » Kashmir’s Troubles
Kashmir’s Troubles
While at PTH, we do not indulge in cliched fights over the Kashmir issue, the plight of Kashmiris needs to be mentioned. Below we are reproducing an article from The Economist that we believe does a decent job in highlighting the present state of affairs, as well as the emerging developments in the Indian Administered Kashmir (Admin, PTH).
From The Economist
Dec 29, 2010
A GROUP of special Indian police barged into a white-painted, single-storey house on the crisp morning of October 27th. They let their lathis do the talking. The wooden batons were first rammed through all the windows, furniture and a television. When the grey-haired owners protested, the rods were turned on them. The police broke the husband’s leg and beat his wife’s flesh a sickly purple. Before leaving, the officers added an insult, hurling religious books, including a Koran, to the floor.
Such intrusions are common in Palhallan, a hillside settlement in the north of Indian-run Kashmir. It looks like an idyllic rural spot, where bushels of red chilies hang from the eves of steep-roofed wooden houses and hay wains jostle with shepherds in narrow streets. But the village has been caught up in months of violent protests that have roiled Kashmir. In 2010 an uprising led by youthful Kashmiri separatists left over 110 people dead and thousands injured. Youngsters daub anti-India slogans on walls, yell at Indian police and soldiers to “go home”, and hurl stones.
In turn its residents have taken a beating. A young man lifts his hand to his head, showing a zip-like scar running from the crown of his skull to his neck. It is the result, he says, of a police battering. His lament is typical: “I am an unpolitical person, but they treat me like a terrorist.” Locals say they suffer collective punishment. Enraged officers usually fail to catch stone-lobbers, so lash out instead at families and residents nearby, accusing them, usually unfairly, of collusion.
As a military helicopter buzzes overhead, a resident counts eight people killed and many more hurt in the area in the previous three months. Bitterness deepens with each injury and funeral. “The police,” he says, “they want to start a war.” A return to war, or widespread armed insurgency, is unlikely for the moment. But fury has spread, spurring some young Kashmiris to demand a more violent, more bloody response than mere strikes and stones.
On November 10th three men in Pattan, a small town a few minutes’ drive down the hill from Palhallan, took matters into their own hands. Hidden in the crowd of a bustling market they marched up to a pair of police constables, shot them at close range, snatched their rifles and fled. Both the policemen died. The Kashmiris have aped Palestinian methods, mobbing India’s ill-trained, sometimes panicky, police, by raining stones and broken bricks on them.
The police—more in the habit of using sticks and bamboo shields—have struggled, fighting back with huge quantities of tear-gas (tens of thousands of canisters were fired in 2010) and then bullets. They have reckoned that any protesters who die have themselves to blame. Officials in Delhi bristle at any comparison between the year’s events and Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland or the unrest in neighbouring Tibet. Kashmiris, they insist, have their own land and state, enjoy religious freedom, are by no means the poorest in India and take part in elections, most notably in 2008.
But there are severe limits to their democracy. Peaceful protests are prevented, jails are crammed with political detainees, detention without charge is common, phones are partially blocked, the press censored and reporters beaten, broadcasters muffled and curfews imposed. Those who complain too fiercely online are locked away. The authorities in Kashmir and Delhi say these measures are temporary. They say that to prevent abuses, the police are now being trained and re-equipped. (Soldiers, for the most part, have been kept away from street clashes.) Omar Abdullah, the chief minister of Kashmir, says that police officers may even be prosecuted for misdeeds. But the repression persists, and risks causing ever greater resentment and instability.
Seen from Delhi the uprising appears manageable. Kashmiris have dropped their guns and shooed away Islamic insurgents who a decade or so ago skulked in the postcard-perfect mountains. The presence of a 350,000-strong Indian security force (some say the number is much higher), amid a population of just 11m, has also kept the armed militants at bay.
It helps India that Pakistan, the eternal trouble-stirrer in Kashmir, is in disarray. And India takes heart from the weakness and fractiousness of local leaders in Srinagar. Many have been bought off with well-paid posts, or jailed, or both. Moderates who attempt to reunite the parts have been locked up or worse (one was shot and paralysed by a mystery assailant). Some of the highest-profile ones, such as the stone-pelters’ elderly icon, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are kept under house-arrest.
Sticks and stones
Some Kashmiris darkly hint of picking up guns again, but the local leaders have no appetite for large-scale violence, fearful of a return to the carnage of the 1990s when thousands died each year. Instead they encourage low-casualty options such as throwing stones and prolonged stay-at-homes (hartals).
If such gestures have a goal, it is to gain attention. Young Kashmiris expose themselves to Indian bullets, hoping to draw compassionate outsiders—Barack Obama perhaps—to put pressure on India. Yet the strategy has so far achieved little. Outsiders, especially Western democracies once so cocksure and outspoken on human rights, now fret that their power is ebbing eastward. The Kashmiri separatists who suggest that “you people” or “Britain and America” could somehow chide India into a less repressive stance in Kashmir do not appreciate how eager Westerners are to court India as an ally.
The Kashmiris who have died in recent months have at least embarrassed India, which may yet respond by moderating the repression. But the radical separatists, who define azadi, the Kashmiri word for freedom, as outright independence from India—or even, for a shrinking number, incorporation with Pakistan—will not be placated. And nor will India consider letting Kashmir go.
Time appears to be on India’s side. With each passing year it will have more resources to throw north. The local economy, at least until recently, had been chugging along quite well, thanks to horticulture, tourism, funds from central India and heavy spending by the armed forces. A few Kashmiri expats had started returning and investing before the uprising in 2010. Development in itself will not fix Kashmir. But faster economic growth could at least prove a useful balm.
The government has made some political gestures. In September, an all-party delegation of Indian politicians—including even the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party—visited Kashmir. India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, made reassuring comments about addressing grievances there. The government in Delhi also pledged to send a high-ranking team of interlocutors to prepare a series of reports on Kashmir after consulting all sides in the conflict. A three-person team was eventually named in October.
These initiatives have started to persuade some in Kashmir of progress. But the team is made up merely of two academics and a journalist, people who carry no political weight. Nor does it help that they have already fallen into public squabbling. Kashmiris have watched their saga wearily. Some leaders have refused to meet the delegates, dismissing them as a joke.
Conspiracy theorists in Srinagar, the capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, accuse India’s generals of sabotaging politicians’ peace efforts because the armed forces reap big rewards in the territory. More likely the central government in Delhi, run by the Congress party, is shy of Indian nationalists, who complain whenever concessions are considered for Kashmir. In October, a writer, Arundhati Roy, suggested Kashmiris might have legitimate complaints, and that Pakistan might have a justifiable interest in Kashmir. Hindu nationalists demanded she be tried for sedition.
So Kashmir is left to smoulder, with dire consequences for its citizens. A visit to Srinagar’s psychiatric hospital shows throngs of patients, crowding around its overworked chief consultant. They relate a dismal roll-call of anxiety, stress, depression, alcohol and opiate addictions, child abuse and suicides. As Dr Mushtaq Margoob takes a break to munch a chapati and sip milky tea, he talks of Kashmir as a broken society. Some patients become destructive, he says, describing a mother who watched her son shot dead on the street and who then went on to burn down her own home and that of her neighbours.
The most damaged, he concludes, are the youngest. “We see a collective anger, an aggressive, traumatised generation”, he says. The head of a think-tank talks of 600,000 young, educated, Kashmiri adults who are now jobless, waiting for some sort of guidance. Religious and political leaders fret that their youngest followers, teenagers, excited by the stone-pelters, are increasingly attracted by more radical ideas.
Militancy stirs
Worryingly, the youngsters talk openly of religious antagonism. Some ask why Kashmir’s Muslims do not turn on Hindus (many Hindu pilgrims visit a sacred spot in the state, but have so far been left unmolested) to seek communal revenge for repression. The head of a student movement, a man who has spent most of his adult life in prison and who is now on the run and hiding from police in the backstreets of Srinagar, warns of infuriated youngsters turning to a “battle of extinction” in which “others, not only Kashmiris, will be killed”.
As long as political leaders exist to channel, and moderate, the rage of the stone-pelters and innocent victims, such excited talk might be discounted. Mr Geelani, a frail octogenarian, is one such. He condemns India as “an occupying imperialist power”, but he is largely a moderating influence. He opposes any return to arms. He supports the pelters’ goals, but not their methods. His practical demands, for the repeal of draconian laws, the end of police abuse and talks with the central government, are hardly off the wall.
But Mr Geelani’s influence is waning, along with his health. It is doubtful that anyone among a handful of potential successors could command as much local respect. The alternative could be more troubling. Some observers fear that as India succeeds in neutering Kashmir’s nationalist politicians, religious groups will flourish.
A Wahhabi welfare organisation, al Hadith, which almost certainly benefits from generous Saudi funds, is quietly emerging as a powerful welfare, religious and cultural force. As others bicker, it has gone about building community centres, mosques, primary and secondary schools and clinics. It is seeking permission to set up a university. Its genial leaders deny being extremists, pointing to their love of education and computers; they say that in the planned university, women and non-Muslims will be enrolled too.
As for claims that the group, which says it has 1.5m members, is spreading conservative values in a territory long known for its Muslims’ religious tolerance, one leader concedes only a “little, little component of cultural shifting”. A few more women are wearing burqas, or staying at home, than did in the past. More Arab-style mosques are springing up.
The non-Muslim minority in Kashmir is much less sanguine, seeing al Hadith as a proxy for Saudi interests and a powerful example of the spreading “pan-Islamisation” of Kashmir. They fret that ties may exist to Wahhabis elsewhere, including terrorists, and warn that a powerful new force is rising in the territory, filling a vacuum created by India. Just now their concerns seem overblown. But the government in Delhi would be wrong to think of Kashmir as yesterday’s problem.
Filed under: Democracy, human rights, India, Islam, Islamabad, Kashmir, Uncategorized · Tags: India, Indian, Kashmir, Pakistan, police, srinagar, The Economist
88 Responses to "Kashmir’s Troubles"
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Pakistan, the eternal trouble-stirrer in Kashmir ; hmmm what conclusions!!!
i am glad they acknowledged this:
Kashmiris, they insist, have their own land and state, enjoy religious freedom, are by no means the poorest in India and take part in elections, most notably in 2008.
more will come later……
//So Kashmir is left to smoulder, with dire consequences for its citizens. A visit to Srinagar’s psychiatric hospital shows throngs of patients, crowding around its overworked chief consultant. They relate a dismal roll-call of anxiety, stress, depression, alcohol and opiate addictions, child abuse and suicides.//
Pertinent to note that this situation is created by local population, that it is limited to Valley alone and hasnt affected Ladakh and Jammu which have integrated peacefully with a Nation of nations called India and further that this situation is solely due to lack of viable leadership of Kashmiri people…
Ultimately what will a potent mix of Religion, Saudi funding, Pakistani state propaganda, spineless hurriyat (many of whom are working tirelessly to spin of the state for their own personal gains) do to the valley?
- throw out all pandits
-scuttle the long heritage of tolerance
-Become introverts and conservative
-Start dreaming of this Utopia called Independent nation without any cause or effect whatsoever
Solution: Govt of India whose Ministry of Home affairs is headed by our own Lungi Saheb PC should disband a motley crew of journalists as interlocuters and instead involve good representation of Kashmiri society into discussions. And most importantly, Kashmiri society should follow Punjabis whose Kicka*se actions in countering Pakistani state sponsored terrorism to dust. Ultimately sense prevailed that they can still be an independent nation within India.
India is afterall a nation of nations!! Tamils, Kannadigas, Telugus, Malayalees, Konkanis, Odiyas, Marathis, Assamese, Bengalis, Marwadis, Pahadis, Bhojpuris etc etc….Amongst all these, you will still find Muslims, Hindus in each region comfortable in their own regional ethnicity and still being part of a major polity called India
if kashmiris havent learnt or do not want to learn, it is their problem. They can never secede from India.
While as this article treads very well on the issues chocking Kashmir, but as does happen to Kashmir, the truth is always leaned towards religion and Arab. The author concludes by saying
I am, as will be most Kashmiris, surprised at this. What does an Arab styled mosque really mean? Does it have doors that autolock you once you enter and don’t open till you are brainwashed to blow yourself up? SUch conclusions, dearth of truth, are dangerous to be made.
The author also says
This is, to put simply, a lie. More women in Kashmir are working, travelling far and wide and making their presence felt all over the globe: as mothers, wives and highly educated and goal oriented professionals. The more travel in rural Kashmir, the greater I see girls giggling to their schools. It is never a surprise if the head of a conservative family is worried because his daughter couldn’t get admission in that college or university. Kashmiri parents sell their assets to fund the education of their children – gender non specific.
And Jamat e Islami, is to begin with not a Wahabi organisation, if I was to accept the global definiation of Wahabism. It has been in Kashmir since people can recall. Much before the alleged oil money could fund it. And the work they do is worth a pat, not otherwise. They have schools which churn out bright minds. They have low cost care facilities. One of their laboratories in Srinagar, par excellence, has women employees, and not all of them cover their hair. Their idea of a university, opposed by the government, for a private university would raise the bar of excellence, and the government run universities would have competition does not go down well with the present education system. When a Hindu organisation build a university in Jammu, with fund obtained directly from religious activities, no one called it a Hindu/Saffron terror organisation, but all want to claim so for Kashmir. In the early 90′s when a group of militants imposed dress code for women in Kashmir, it failed! Kashmir is a mystery, and you have cut through layers, to see the real Kashmiri: who is shy and can only be won by power of love and not the gun.
I think this artice makes me believe even more strongly that Kashmir should be independent not just for the sake of human rights but also for pragmatic reasons. Note: I am not saying Jammu and Kashmir should be independent but only the Kashmir valley. I am originally from Jammu region and people there pretty much want to be part of India. If Kashmir is independent, it means the Indian government can spend less resources on its army and more on infrastructure and developnment in much more poorer states. Kashmiris will get independence and get to make their own laws (whatever they might be) and Pakistan will have to stop blaming India for is problems. In conclusion: I think South Asia will be far more stable.
NerdyPanda
Thank for saying that and hearing it from a Jammu resident, is heartening.
@Nerdypanda
It is easier said than done. Problem can only be solved if both India and Pakistan agrees to give freedom to Kashmir. Kashmirs on both side have to be united for this to happen. It wont end there. Both countries will have to guarantee its freedom.
NerdyPanda and K, extending your logic, it would also be heartening if Israel ceases to exist and America disengages from the world (or better still, convert to Islam). I say this because Pakistanis blame not only Indians for its problems (which would stop if Kashmir became independent) but also America and Israel.
People of Kashmir do not consider themselves Indians. You can’t buy love. Period.
Let us quit fooling ourselves – Pakistan will never be content as long as India exists and continues to prosper. Our problems have very little to do with Kashmir. As long as extreme intolerant Islam infests the minds of many in the Punjabi dominated Pakistani Army and their secret ISI army of mullahs and militants, India has to be ready to defend itself in Kashmir and elsewhere. Normal neighborly relations with Pakistan is merely wishful thinking. The so called “good people” in Pakistan are fighting a losing battle on the front lines – as proven by the recent blasphemy crisis.
Pervez, it is irrelevant whether Kashmiris consider themselves Indian or not, whatever that may mean. There are more potent forces at play in Kashmir that will determine if status quo changes, rather than who considers himself what.
AndroidGuy
Are you talking Chinese as the potent forces?
I meant the inexorable compulsions of geopolitics, the vital interests of countries involved, possibly China included.
Happy new year to all the readers at PTH!
1. Kashmir is as much a part of India as Balochistan is of Pakistan and Tibet is of China. The human rights issue in Kashmir is no different from Balochistan or Tibet. However unlike the Baloch and the Tibetian people, the Kashmiris enjoy all the democratic freedom and rights that any Indian in any part of India enjoys.
2. Kashmir is not the problem, it is only a symptom of the problem between Pakistan and India. As rightly pointed out by Musharraf, even if Kashmir is resolved, the Pakistan India relation will still be troubled.
3. The Kashmir issue has been further complicated due to Pakistan illegally ceding 50,000 Sq Kms of Aksai Chin to China. The same has to be reversed for any solution to the issue.
So the bottom line is, India will not give any concession to Pakistan and compromise its strategic interests in Kashmir.
K, NerryPanda,
Care to explain how a landlocked region between three nuclear powers (India, Pakistan and China) plans to mantain its sovereignity and independence after it obtains the so-called “azadi”??
And after you have won your so-called azadi, when are you planning to wrest back remaining Kashmir from Pakistan and China…Oh wait, they are going to come automatically to you on a platter!!..after all, Pakistan and China are the most altruist nations on planet earth!
Care to explain who was responsible for sparking military conflict with the Indian army in heavily populated urban areas based on the strategy of asymmetic warfare?? Aren’t the sufferings and deaths that you keep romaticising about directly traceable to GHQ – Rawalpindi, Pakistan??
How many times do idiots like K shout themselves hoarse against Pakistan on the dubious role played by it like they keep doing against India??
Care to explain that if India was such a genocidal nation, then how was Kashmir such a peaceful place till the late 1980′ s?? How many of the Indian army troops were stationed in Kashmir till 1980′s?? Not even a fraction of the current strength. How many times has the Indian army used air power to subdue the Kashmiris population?? How many Indian army battle tanks do you see in the Kashmir?? If Indian army was such a genocidal force, what prohibits us from going bang-bang and finishing you up for once and for all?
In India, you can talk about sedition, sepration or as you put it “azaadi” and still stay alive. Do you know what will become of you if you were to do the same thing in China, Pakistan or other autocratic countries? Are you even aware of what is happening to the Nobel Laureate in China??
If India is an occupying power, why have we allowed your culture to flourish?? No Indian can settle in Kashmir under Article 370. You can still make your own laws relating to property, fundamental rights etc. Why should we not execute demographic re-engineering like China has done in Tibet to extinguish any seperatism in the future. Why do we keep treating you like daisies instead??
How many times do we hear about constitutional liberties that are afforded to Kashmir by India purely on the strength of her constitution and democratic credentials?? I don’t think that independent Kashmir will give itself the same liberties if, and an impossible if, it ever achieves seperation that they are getting in India. More likely, if will resemble another Islamic emirate run by prophets and mullahs.
The best part was your shit about Jamat-e-Islami – being a “progressive” organization. That is like Osama Bin Laden talking about love and innocence. Even Lashkar-E-Taiba does all the charitable activities that you proudly proclaim for Jamat. But a tiger can never change his stripes. I guess the world has seen Kashmiri sepratism for what it is – just another Islamic fundamentalist terrorist movement that has severe security implications for India and indeed the rest of the world if it is allowed to succeed. That is why there is neglibile support for it except the arabic countries in global arena.
Franly, I give a damn for people like K, Nerry Panda or Parvez whether they stay in India or not. However, Kashmir is integral part of India and it will stay as Indians are determined to hold it – save for a couple of intellectual masturbators.
Pakistan NEEDS Kashmir WE KNOW it . Hence we will never give it VOLUNTARILY
We also know that Kashmiris DON T want to stay in India
It is OK We dont care
Pakistan will have to take KAshmir by force if it wants it
Cribbing and ABUSING India will not help
Have given you Indian all the civilized reasons to settle the the rights of Kashmiri people, you don’t want to respond. This frees the Kshmiris and Pakistanis to be civil to you. To start with just F***off.
Sadly for the advocate of Kashmir independence, Kashmir is too important for India to be separated. India, once has been partitioned on religious ground before getting independence, when Indians in the government were not having any sorts power, but now no more and it is the testimony of this resolve that since then not a single part of India has been separated.
Why should Kashmirs want to be separated?……..because they follow Islam. Then why the India is secular and home for nearly 160 million Muslims? What is their answer for people who also follow same religion and have sizable population in number of states but chose to stay with India? What are the things they (Kashmiris) are not getting. They’ve article 370 by which have been given special status. Why they’ve not built their own destiny by taking benefit of that article but adopted for separation which was certain to brings dooms? What would have happened if like China’s policy in Tibet, India would have started to out- number native population by settling Indians from other part of country or like POK not allowed any free foreign press and media coverage? And what reply India would give to the demands of Nagas, Bodos, Manipuris, Tripura, ULFA, Khalistan and scores of others?.
Just like Pakistan want peace and friendship with India but not at the cost of Kashmir, same India also wants. She is prepared to go to any extent to keep Kashmiri with it, by peace or by….you know what I want to say. Also India is prepared to talk to Kashmiris on any issue including autonomy but not independence.
Gilanis, Lones, Butts will come and go away and that is true for us too but they’ve spoiled the beauty of Kashmir for their greed of unfettering power. Otherwise they would have ruled Kashmir according to their wishes and also would have shared power in central government. But they’ve damaged the fabrics of states so much that it will take number of years to repair it. They should remember that nothing will last for ever but vitality, resourcefulness and perseverance of democratic India will last for many many years and that will deny any further division of India.
I’m frustrated but say that it is better to have war to settle the issue once for all, if it can not be settled through peace talks. Whoever win the war will decide the future of Kashmir. But after that, for the god sake, we should not crib, fight, back-stab or pull one another legs on international forum but have peace and friendship, be the brother for ever instead of enemy forever.
Straight-Talk
In next Indo-Pak war everybody will be dead or wish they were dead. You want war, then why the hell you talk of friendship.
If others in India want freedom, then it is obvious that it is only matter of time before they go. Only way to control them is starve them to death.
India needs Kashmir not for the wonderful locales or the wonderful people. India needs it for for securing it’s upper riparian status on the major rivers. These rivers sustain 500M people in India and Pakistan. Who gives a rat’s butt about the “alienated youth” of Kashmir. Making sure a few perennially pissed-off Sunni Valley denizens – who also cleansed out 500K Pandits – stay happy, is really really low on the agenda. The issue is water. India cannot let go. Neither can Pakistan – Indus Water Treaty notwithstanding. Azadi-inspired Kashmiris should imbibe this unfortunate fact. So quit complaining – and keep ripping off the Indian government. Because India cannot afford to let go this one.
The Economist calls Arundhati Roy a “writer”. Good job of tying a pretty bow on the pig.
libertarian
None of the river from Kashmir flow to India. How you are going to do it?
With Indians it is almost impossible to have a real intellectual discourse. They always sound like cry babies: you did that, we did this, you take this, we get that, you are wrong, we are right, you were hindus, you killed hindus, we wont let you go, you are idiots, we are the smarts.
I have blogged for 5 years now and I have come across, just…wait for it…just about 3 Indians who are capable of discussions, and the rest of the chunk are just like the Watty, neel123, Aadi, Pankaj’s here! And to stress their points sometimes they use CAPS! How intellectual and innovative!
@Parvez Talk of freindship and talk of war both is possible. US and Japan are freind after 1945 war. Same is true for Germany and France or France and England. Same can be true in the context of Indo-Pak. I’m not bragging for war but then what options are left. Moreover who will give guarantee for peace between India and Pakistan after so called inpendence of Kashmir. Otherwise I put one solution and that is unite all the part of Kashmir, seperate Jammu and Laddakh (of course on religious ground) from Kashmir, return Kashmiri Pundit to their homeland ie Kashmir and give choice of Kashmiri Muslims and Kashmiri Pundit, how and with whom they want live. If their choice is different, divide Kashmir in line of division of Punjab and Bengal in 1947. Thus both India and Pakistan will be allowed to have Kashmir.
Mr K
Since you have mentioned my name also, in your post
I ,Pankaj , Would LIKE TO DECLARE on Behalf of All Indians
(except few traitors like Arundhati Roy) that WE will NEVER give up Kashmir And Fight till DEATH to protect it from your evil hands
If you want Kashmir take it by FORCE .Fight A WAR
It is plain and simple .NOTHING Intellectual about it.
Regards .
@ Parvez, Pankaj, Straight-Talk,
You guys seem oblivious to the fact that Pakistan and India are in fact engaged in a war.
Pakistan tried all it could in last sixty years, first through the open and direct wars, four of them including Kargil, in addition to the proxy war since 1989 which is still going on …….. !
Therefore it is naive to say that there is no war going on between Pakistan and India.
The Pakistanis always whine about the fact that India has stationed over 500,000 soldiers at the Kashmir border to defend Kashmir from a few thousand unarmed Kashmiri separatists. What they conveniently keep mum about is that these Kashmiris have a big supporter in the Pakistani army, the Pakistan trained heavily armed intruders come from all over the muslim world, and India stationing the large number of troops is to defend its long borders from these armed intruders.
If there is a war going on then why the sob story about Bombay incident.
@ Parvez,
This is part of diplomacy, and diplomacy is often hypocrisy in a civilized way.
If you have noted, the Mumbai hotel attack was reciprocated in the Marriot Hotel attack in Pakistan, and it will not be a surprise if the Mumbai attack have already been paid back in the same coin in the following years.
Therefore in the modern age of proxy wars, war and diplomacy go side by side.
No One has answered the question asked by Aadi. Is there any power on the planet which can stop Indians from elminating all the Sunnis from the valley in few hours as it wont take whole day to complete the task. It is the Indian civilizational ethos which make GOI treat the traitors with velvet glove and not the iron fist . IF Indian Army use Pakistani army tactics of Bangladesh and Baluchistan fame then issue would not have been alive more than few minute . Pakistan has tried its best in past to take over Kashmir and lost not only half of the country but also have civil war like situation at hand . If Pakistani still think K issue is in their interest and like being hostage to the willy , dogla ,parasitic Kashmiri Musalmans then they should continue on their so called “principle stand and pay the detrimental price of their own wellbeing.
@Parvez: You said …” In next Indo-Pak war everybody will be dead or wish they were dead. You want war, then why the hell you talk of friendship.”
Spoken like a true chela of psychop@th Zaid Hamid! Today the whole world knows Pakistan intimately unlike at the time of Ayub Khan or even Zia. We are wise today and know that blackmailing is a character trait of many Pakistani’s like you. Do not fool yourselves, nobody will stand by your side – not even a China that is fully focused on its own development more than in your survival. A Pakistan that is capable of being a mere chowkidar for rent to Americans, Arabs and Chinese, is ill-placed to make threats least of all nuclear threats. Wake up and you will see that the rest of the world is racing forward towards economic development and trying to improve the lives of its citizens. You want to go to the stone age – that is your madness.
Read Aadi [January 1, 2011 at 10:59 am] above and try to answer each point if you can.
Watty
My statement is self contained, and logical. It is not a threat, it is reality. It is independent of your so called international supporters. If you don’t see it, get some help. Have a good day.
So far Strategic weapons are used for deterrent purpose only. In Indo Pak context , not even Chinese will want this genie out of the bottle. And God forbid if Pakistan initiate such war, it will have global, civilizational dimention. It wont be Pakistan alone getting vaporized or turned into glass but all of its sponsers, backers and ideological partners. Not even God will be able to save any one of them and they know that too. Nuke threat is just an empty threat, it wont earn the pleasures of Paradise .
I could not agree with Kaalket more …… !
In the event of any Pakistani nuke attack on India, India’s retaliation will include Pakistan’s sponsors, free Oil suppliers etc. All the Sunni muslims nations within India’s reach upto Libya will be in danger of being vapourized…!
neel123, calm down. India doesn’t have enough nukes to vaporize anybody beyond Pakistan, and as Gen Sunderji said, you lost the moment you use nukes, their value remains in NOT using them. India (and indeed Pakistan) have been rational actors when it comes to military and nuclear tactics (so far).
As an American, it seems since American economy is very much influenced and to a large extent dependent on China and India, America needs to make sure that India is not harmed. We are dependent on China buying our debt but it seems China-India trade is growing tremendously in past few years. If these two giants come together then US $ will lose as world reserve currency and bring fall of us just it happened to UK in 1950- 70s. Moreover, ultimate goal of Muslims allover is to convert and rule the world. That is why Europe is scared of Moslims. Even China fears Moslims. It seems India is much more civilized and cultured and much more closer to us in the west than communist China. It seems India is India largely because it is Hindu. I am hoping that China gives up its communist leanings and goes backs to its traditional Budhist culture. Then even China would become a benevolent power like India and we would have less trouble in the world. Given all this it is not in the interest of the world to weaken India and make Moslims stronger. Pakistan should stop hurting India, else it will destroy itself and disintegrate like Soviets.
As an American, it seems since American economy is very much influenced and to a large extent dependent on China and India, America needs to make sure that India is not harmed. We are dependent on China buying our debt but it seems China-India trade is growing tremendously in past few years. If these two giants come together then US $ will lose as world reserve currency and bring fall of us just it happened to UK in 1950- 70s. Moreover, ultimate goal of Muslims allover is to convert and rule the world. That is why Europe is scared of Moslims. Even China fears Moslims. It seems India is much more civilized and cultured and much more closer to us in the west than communist China. It seems India is India largely because it is Hindu. I am hoping that China gives up its communist leanings and goes backs to its traditional Budhist culture. Then even China would become a benevolent power like India and we would have less trouble in the world. Given all this it is not in the interest of the world to weaken India and make Moslims stronger. Pakistan should stop hurting India, else it will destroy itself and disintegrate like Soviets.
Fellow Indians,
It is pointless to argue with Pakistanis about Kashmir, since we know their intentions……the real issue is how do we Indians successfully integrate Kashmir once and for all with India, by winning over sensible Kashmiri Muslims…..
The key is to explain the Indian perspective directly to the Kashmiri people and reducing the security footprint in a smart manner……..we need to protect the Loc and maintain cantonments to monitor militancy…….but why have bunkers and troops in urban areas any more?…….until the LOC was sealed up, we had no choice……but since Musharraf let us fence the LOC, I see no reason for draconian force presence……..the forces can be shifted to cantonment areas outside urban areas…….day to day policing should be a normal JK police activity with security troops partipating when there is any militant activity…..
In conjunction, we should remind the Kashmiri society what they get from India…….theur own land, own state, Article 370 which prohiibits land purchase by outsiders, a democractic, secular system…….and, we should upsell the economic aspects, from getting access to entire Indian economy which the rest of the world is trying to get, ability to have a better standard of living etc……..this conversation needs to be with ordinary Kashmiris, not the so called leaders or the Hurriyat……
Let us realize that Kashmiris have suffered collateral damage from Pakistan’s proxy war……..they are a traumatized people caught in a vicious crossfire……with Pakistan holding the Islamic card……..but the argument is still winnable………only an insane person would want to join Pakistan given its conditions……and azaadi as a land locked country with no military force means sure decline into becoming another Afghanistan………I know we Indians get very emotional and chest thumping against Kashmiri muslims……but if we want them as our loyal citizens, we have to win them over……
I also want to add that autonomy, self-rule and other “political” solutions are meaningless without the right strategy and right kind of discourse…….in fact, those solutions actually can be severely counter-productive towards integration of Kashmiris with India……..
We need to encourage Kashmiris to participate in the Indian system more…….let them form more political parties instead of the National Conference and PDP…….let those political parties fight in state assembly elections on their agenda……let them deliver on governance and brng in economic development………the answer lies in this kind of grassroot involvement, as has been shown in Bihar, which was once considered a basket case……..over time, as democracy gets crystallized in an environment with low security footprint, we can convert Kashmir into just another Indian state…..after that if most people want autonomy, it can be discussed……but key is political participation instead of jihad or stone pelting…….
Tuk Tuk aise mujhe dekho na sawariya…
Its nice!
Two Bengali brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Sindhi brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Punjabi brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Bihari brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Rajput brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Tamil brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Kashmiri brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
Two Gujrati brothers, one converts to Islam, and they become enemies…
they become enemies forever…
If right minded people in Pakistan are not able to see the consequences of sometime open, sometime proxy and low intensity war dragging on for last 60 years, then whom we expect for. In meantime, during this conflict, just find out who has suffered more, whose economy are in tatters, who is suffering in civil war like situation and called home for world wide terrorism and on other hand who have developed and inhanced its brand value. If the writing on the wall is not read by even intelectuals of that country and still adamant on eating grass, fighting for thoudand years or bleeeding by thousand cuts blah blah…….then hopes for peace is hopelessly weak. Sugggestion of neuclear war can be given by only foolhardy. We also remember of India’s policy of no first use but if attacked then retaliate in scale of total destuction and annihilation. India has also setup the procedure and chain of commands to endure first attack and then attack of that scale, in case such eventuality comes.
The Kashmir Valley Wahhabis are free to go anywhere they like in the world, if they don’t like India.
The land of Rishi Kashyap will remain part of India. The city established by Ashoka as Shrinagari would remain part of India, whose flag is adorned by Ashoka’s chakra.
Kashmiri Valley Wahhabis who have lost their history, have lost the right to land also. They are free to leave India.
Subcontinental
and you are?
~K~ wrote: and you are?
The ideological heir to your forefathers!
A well wisher of your progeny!
One who pities the mental bankruptcy of the current generation of Kashmir Valley inhabitants!
@ Aadi, A. Moga and the rest
Hey,you u guys no one is saying it is going to be easy for Kashmir to obtain its independence. Yes, it is a landlocked state and needs the goodwill of both India and Pakistan. I am not so delusional that I believe Kashmir will get its independence anytime soon. But, the truth of the matter is that Kashmiris do not want to be part of India or Pakistan. I am not blaming India for the militancy in Kashmir, that rests squarely on Pakistan but the abuses by Indian Army do make the matters worse. They make Kashmiris even more hostile to India. Btw, I was born in Udhampur, J&K but never once stepped foot in Srinagar in the 90′s. You know why? because it was friggin’ dangerous.
P.S: WTH? People who are not from J&K are so emotional about the issue? You weren’t born there or lived there, you have no right to make any decisions about the state. Same applies to Pakistanis. You don’t understand what it’s really like to grow up in the state. There’s a lot of emotional baggage that comes with being born there.
@NerdyPanda,
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Yes, it is a landlocked state and needs the goodwill of both India and Pakistan. I am not so delusional that I believe Kashmir will get its independence anytime soon
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Next time, try to put some logic in your preposterous assertions rather than using poetic words to make castles in thin air. The statehood of Kashmir is infeasible. Either accept that – or explain otherwise.
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But, the truth of the matter is that Kashmiris do not want to be part of India or Pakistan.
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You must be having a divine vision or a crystal glass to know the unknown?? BTW, did you also consider the Kashmiris who are living under China-administered and Pakistan-administered Kashmir??
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I am not blaming India for the militancy in Kashmir, that rests squarely on Pakistan but the abuses by Indian Army do make the matters worse. They make Kashmiris even more hostile to India.
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May be you can publish a “NerdyPanda Doctrine” of how to conduct a war without causing any collateral damage. Or maybe you can invent silver bullets that the armies can use to kill only the bad guys and spare the good ones. David Petraeus can use it in Iraq and Afghan wars and make his life a lot easier. In fact, armies the world over will thank you for your contribution.
Hey NerdyPanda, get real!!
An army general once famously said, ” In a war, mistakes are made. But we must remember that the greatest mistake is the war itself”
And the onus for starting the war rests squarely with Pakistan.
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Btw, I was born in Udhampur, J&K but never once stepped foot in Srinagar in the 90′s. You know why? because it was friggin’ dangerous.
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In the 1980s, you would not have dared to step foot in Punjab either. You know why – coz it was friggin’ dangerous then. But you can very well step foot in Punjab now. You know why – coz it is friggn’ peaceful now.
So – What is your point??
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WTH? People who are not from J&K are so emotional about the issue? You weren’t born there or lived there, you have no right to make any decisions about the state.
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I was not born in 27 out of 28 states in India. Does that make me less concerned about them?? Are you trying to say that if your mother is screw** in broad daylight in Jammu, then the rest of India should not be concerned.
Dear Aadi, Nerdy Panda, and K:
I wasn’t going to comment on this issue but after Aadi’s last post I felt I had to say a few words. Indian-Pakistani dialogue on the net is notorious for being high on rhetoric and emotions and nothing inflames emotions like the Kashmir issue. I am afraid it is heading that way. Aadi’s first post was more reasonable statement of the Indian position but I feel the second one adds nothing to the dialogue except inflame more passions.
It is understandable that Indians are very passionate about our country and its integrity but it does not help matters by hurling abuse at the Kashmiris especially if one holds the view that they are fellow countrymen. My position is not necessarily the same as that of K or even NP but I feel that they make some good points and one must acknowledge and validate them.
Even Parvez has a point (we may not like it) but it is true that one cannot buy love; it has to be earned.
So what is the Indian case for Kashmir?
That it is a part of India on the basis of the instrument of accession and now we will not let it go? It may or may not have a legal standing but morally it is a very weak argument. Similarly the argument that Kashmir will be unviable on its own may very well be true yet this argument is weak as well because such an argument has not stopped even smaller states; the latest being Kosovo, from declaring de-facto independence.
That Kashmir was once a part of India and Hindu? Well the same argument didn’t stop BD from breaking from Pakistan.
Please note here that I am not an anti-India leftist like Arundhati Roy. I consider myself an Indian nationalist and it would pain me extremely to see Kashmir go away from us; however because of the fact that I am a nationalist, it pains me even more to read the above article and to hear what K has to say because of the fact that there is a grain of truth in both.
While Pakistan certainly has had a big role in inflaming passions and sending over killers over the years, the fact remains that last summer we saw with horror Indian blood spilled on the streets of Srinagar but India troops. It was a difficult no win situation for our troops because the protestors were often also damaging public property and had to be stopped yet what we saw was a ham handed response.
We like to call ourselves the largest democracy and believe that someday we will become a Superpower. Well we have to learn to behave like one. Just like we have to train our commandos to neutralize trained killers faster so that a Mumbai like massacre does not happen, we also have to train our security forces with better techniques of riot control that are effective yet non lethal.
I read a lot of comments above how India will fight, even use nukes etc. but never let Kashmir go yet IMHO those are all the reasons why we risk losing Kashmir.
India’s legal case for Kashmir rests on an instrument of accession signed by its erstwhile ruler, which is contested by several quarters including Pakistan which insists on a plebiscite later on asked for by the UN. It is a legal issue and I am not a legal expert but as I said before I am a nationalist.
As a nationalist, I believe India has a claim on Kashmir on much stronger moral grounds; and on the grounds on which our Republic was founded; that is, while India is a home of people with multiple sub-identities based on language, caste, region and religion, it is a common home for all; a civic nation that based on equality and universal human rights for all its citizens regardless of region or religion.
In other words I believe Kashmir is a part of India because India (and genuinely popular nationalist Kashmiri leaders like Sheikh Abdullah) chose to be a part of India because they rejected the two nation theory like other Indians elsewhere. Those leaders (like leaders from other parts of India) willingly chose to constitute our country into a Republic. Kashmir today is a part of India just like Punjab or Assam or Bengal or Tamil Nadu is a part of India; by the consent of the governed.
Now that is a moral argument and in my opinion our most important one. Giving any other arguments such as the geopolitical ones (or comparing Kashmir with Tibet) weakens that argument and our country itself because India is a Republic; it is not an empire so we do not ‘hold’ on to Kashmir.
Having said the above I must admit that short sighted politicians have done a lot of harm to the above vision by governing parts of India, including Kashmir as if it was a part of an Empire.
Someone above compared Kashmir to Punjab.
Let me say that as someone who knows a thing or two about Punjab and its insurgency, it was not the heavy handedness and the custodial killings let loose on Punjab that defeated the insurgency; it was the will of the people of Punjab especially the Sikhs that did that. If anything the insurgency lasted so long because of those tactics that alienated quite a few. What saved Punjab was the heroism of many brave police and other officers but also the brave stand of many human rights activist (including many Hindus) who were often attacked by both the terrorists and the over jealous security officers. Such people took a stand for ordinary people in the name of India and thus restored the confidence of the people.
If there is a lesson to be learned from Punjab it is this; insurgency and separatist feelings can only be countered by the people themselves; and the people of any part of India are Indians; thus they cannot be treated as an enemy.
The onus lies with us the Indians to make everyone welcome in our common homeland.
The state of Jammu and Kashmir is not just the Kashmir valley; it is made up of Laddakh and Jammu as well where Indian sentiments remain strong; even in the valley there is little appetite for a union with Pakistan; thus Kashmir is an Indian issue and I hope for India’s sake that given a proper set of circumstances all of Kashmir can be won over. It is up to us all to not inflame passions by making derogatory remarks to those whom we believe are our own countrymen.
I close my comment with a respectful question for K:
I agree that the gross human rights abuses and the heavy handedness of the central Govt. is to be condemned, they must stop and the state has to be governed democratically by the local leadership without interference with its rights, language traditions etc. However once that happens, how will ‘Azadi’ help an average Kashmiri in his day to day life (or otherwise) become any more free than say a Punjabi in Punjab or a Bengali in Bengal?
It is a sincere attempt to understand your POV so please elaborate as well as you can.
Regards.
There are no human rights violations in Jammu & Kashmir from the side of Indian troops.
If anybody takes up arms against the state, then state has the right to use the force of arms against the insurgents. It is the responsibility of the state to neutralize all those who take up arms. Lay down your arms, and nobody will be hurt.
The Kashmir Valley Wahhabis are still not getting the punishment they deserve for rising up against the Indian State, i.e. against the Indian people. We still pamper them with Article 370 and financial support, and this is how they thank the Indians.
The Pakistanis and Kashmir Valley Wahhabis can throw anything and everything at India. Kashmir was, is and will remain part of India.
All these Kashmiri “Azaadi” bunkum is only that, a means for some useless Kashmir Valley Wahhabis to get legitimacy in society even though they are completely useless and unproductive, people who don’t want to work.
Gorki,
Excellent points!! This is the kind of conversation that we need to have with ordinary Kashmiri muslims. Kashmiris have been caught in the cross-fire between India and Pakistan. How do we make their lives better so that they do not have to suffer in the cross fire? Indian security forces need to be heavily concentrated on the border, LOC and other entry points into Kashmir. But within Kashmir, we can make life easier for ordinary Kashmiris by handing over day to day policing to local Kashmiris. Security forces should be in cantonments or special areas, not out in the streets at every corner. When there is a real militant attack, they need to step out, but why create an overbearing presence of khakhi all over the place? That way the people can breathe freely and lead normal lives.
Secondly we need to encourage Kashmiri muslims to vigorously participate in state level politics. Nothing empowers people more than participating and controlling their own destiny in a democratic way. Let them form more political parties or join and change the current political parties. The reality is that if Kashmir gets azaadi tomorrow, it will still be ruled by the Abdullahs and/or PDP, maybe with some participation of Hurriyat. What will change for ordinary Kashmiris? Nothing. That’s why getting them into local politics is the best way to channel their desire for freedom into a democratic participation in India.
Thirdly, there should be strict oversight to never again rig elections or destroy confidence in the election process. If needed, the election commission can invite international observers to vouch for the fairness of local assembly elections.
Fourthy, there should be a strong focus on economic growth and employment creation.
Lastly, we need to curtail the separatist movement. The Hurriyat leaders, Yasin Malik, Shabir Shah are openly advocating secession, which spoils the atmosphere. The separatist leadership should be exiled to remote corners of India and not allowed entry into Kashmir. In addition, we should lay out the grim future that awaits an azaad Kashmir. It will be ruled by the same players, but will need a huge military to avoid becoming a puppet state. A huge military means army dictatorships like in Pakistan. A puppet state means they will lose their azaadi right away and potentially become havens for Al Quaeda or the Taliban. Economically they will be cut off from India and dependent on a struggling Pakistan for economic support. So Azaadi is a bad idea, not just for India’s pov but also for the future of Kashmiris themselves. We need to remove people who are pushing that agenda and allow regular, sensible Kashmiris to control the agenda and be masters of their own political and economic destiny within India.
Subcontinental
“It is the responsibility of the state to neutralize all those who take up arms”
Good, now at least half of Indian population is in various stages of rebellion and radicalization. Man you got lot of work to do. When are you running for PM position.