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Our Hi Fi Anti “Umreekan” Sentiments

By D. Asghar

The killings of two individuals at the hand of an American Consulate worker, Mr. Davis are unfortunate and reprehensible. Although, Mr. Davis has indicated and maintained his stance that he acted in self defence, the majority of our nation is simply unwilling to buy his account. The reason is plain and simple, our infinite hate towards his country of citizenship.

There were conflicting reports in our media about Mr. Davis’s diplomatic status and whether he did in fact act in self defence. Needless to say, our media and government provided a few confusing accounts and there you had a perfect storm brewing from all sides.

Where Mr. Davis’s act should be condemned, but comparing it to Dr. Afia Siddiqui and making it look like the two situations were identical is down right ludicrous. To exacerbate the situation, the ever confused government played a “Ping Pong” of various accounts and status of the accused. The Interior Minister’s involvement and digression towards Provincial Government were indication of we have “novice administrative people” on the saddle.

Of course, the pressure from US was concerning as well. From the Consulate to the Embassy, the State Department to the Senate Arm’s Committee, reiterating the status of the accused and putting Pakistan in a rather precarious position. The ever hyper sensitive people took to the streets and vented their anger with the usual Anti American sentiments.

All of this got me thinking as usual. I certainly have sympathy for the deceased and feel sorry for their families, despite their dubious characters as presented by the media. But with cooler heads may be we ought to re examine this whole episode. Put the sensitive nature of our area in perspective, where foreigners were beheaded in the past, and be in the shoes of a person like Davis for a moment.

Again, what Mr. Davis did, by all accounts is wrong. Mr. Davis should have not taken the law in his own hands. Here in the US, certain states allow the citizens to carry guns and if the fire arms are used in self defence which has to be proven, generally the accused is set free. People who were questioning Mr. Davis’s fire arms ought to look in our own back yard as each day we see the misuse of heavy duty ammunition by our valiant countrymen.

Looking at Mr. Davis’s previous record, according to our media, he made several trips to Pakistan in the past and did not show any disdain for its people or place. May be he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Looking at the track record of US Consulate employees, it is reasonable to deduce that, this unfortunate incident was an exception. Seemingly, there is no element of pre meditation. Of course the victim’s families must be compensated. Whether it is the law of the land or international law, it must prevail.

The tragic angle of this whole situation is the suicide attempt by a spouse of a victim. This is according to our media in protest as the spouse feels that justice will not be served. I feel the pain of the young lady, but if every grieving spouse followed her path in despair, soon this earth would be half way empty. This act is equally pathetic.

Lastly, to the usual chest thumpers I raise this scenario. Suppose the accused was not an American, but a Saudi or Emirati or Kuwaiti and his name was not Davis but Bin So and So, and Prince or Prince in waiting, would they still be out on the streets with full hi fi volume. I think not.

Written by

D. Asghar is a Pakistani American. A Mortgage Banker by profession who loves to write as well. He blogs frequently at popular South Asian websites. A repository of some of his scribbles is http://dasghar.blogspot.com/. He can be reached at dasghar@aol.com.

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72 Responses to "Our Hi Fi Anti “Umreekan” Sentiments"

  1. [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Swat Crisis, GPS Pakistan. GPS Pakistan said: Our Hi Fi Anti “Umreekan” Sentiments http://bit.ly/eTr1oy #Pakistan [...]

  2. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Asghar Bhai

    I totally agree with your stand on this issue.

    The conflicting reports and the monkey circus surrounding the incidence have become so convoluted, it is hard to buy into any nonsense. The youth killed by My. Davis were reported to have robbed a couple of people several hours before they were killed by Mr. Davis, who also stated they tried to rob him. From being robbers the deceased have now been promoted to intelligence agents according to a media report . It is alleged that Mr Davis killed them because they had uncovered Mr. Davis’s nefarious activities which were a threat to the national security. This twist is absolutely ludicrous. This nonsense is an insult even to the intelligence of a donkey.

    The suicide report of the widow of one of the two men killed by Mr. Davis is quite likely some sort of honor killing, by her family or perhaps some mullahs. She can by used as a newly martyred daughter of this pathetic quam. Pakistan should declare a national holiday in her honor, for the sacrifice she made for the nation.

    God know why Mr. Davis killed the two men. Had they been killed by the a Pakistani, the case would gone cold long ago with the proclamation of good riddance for the two robbers. The most tenable explanation seems to be that Mr. Davis killed the men in self defense. Had Mr. Davis happened to be a Sudanese citizen, this case would have been closed similar to those called police muqabala. After all, what benefit can be milked from a Sudanese national? The family of the victims would have patiently moved on, calling it Allah ke marzi.

    The way things appear, Mr. Davis is an unexpected lottery ticket that Pakistan wants to en cash to distract the emotional masses from the real issues facing the unfortunate nation. The politicians and mullah need an unending supply of distractions to keep the Lemmings occupied with their march towards the cliff.

    The problem with the Pakistani nation is they presume to be the smartest creatures God ever created. They fabricate lies and play games thinking others will fall for their crap. This is nation of shameless, third rate liars, thieves, and con artist. They can kill their daughters for their honor. They are fully capable of selling their souls to the devil on account of their megalomaniac egos.

    The rest of the world is getting fed up with the shenanigans this nation engages in. Pakistanis are isolating themselves so rapidly from the polity of civil nations, they will soon be left friendless and all alone. No one will come to their aid if they continue fooling others by crying wolf.

    What a miserable path the god father of (na)Pakistan ended up leading this nation to? The nation, if unwilling to change its hypocritical character, will fall from the Grace of Allah as well. That time does not seem far.

  3. Probyn United Arab Emirates Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    ——’The reason is plain and simple, our infinite hate towards his country of citizenship.’——–

    Blanket statement. In this case.
    There are many who harbour no unwarranted ill will towards his country but still consider this part of a chain of events where people like this Davis chap have wreaked havoc (in other countries) by simply being jumpy, trigger happy and employing poor judgment of what qualifies as a threat.

    ———-’Suppose the accused was not an American, but a Saudi or Emirati or Kuwaiti and his name was not Davis but Bin So and So, and Prince or Prince in waiting, would they still be out on the streets with full hi fi volume. I think not.’————-

    That is a very different context. Like it or not; they are perceived to be our ‘friends’. How about an attempt to understand this?

    ‘This act is equally pathetic.’

    Sad. Unfortunate. but pathetic?
    classy! real classy…..

  4. Raj (The Other One) Germany Safari Mac OS says:

    The two men killed were ISI operatives who had lured Mr. Davis with a false tip-off about a high-value target. On seeing that it was only a ruse, Mr. Davis tried to break out, and then there was the chase.

    Instead of being overrun by the two, Mr. Davis decided to strike back, and he killed the two. He then photographed the two with his camera, so that CIA can id them.

    So the little side war between CIA and ISI elements is coming into the open.

  5. amjad soomro Pakistan Internet Explorer Windows says:

    type ‘main baghi hoon’ on youtube to see a tribute to salman taseer by dawn news but in benazir bhutto’s vocie.Benazir recited this poem when she came back to pakistan & it’s very surprising to see footage of a very young benazir from those days.

  6. amjad soomro Pakistan Internet Explorer Windows says:

    click on the following link for a video of benazir bhutto in her young days reciting a poem:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK2PIAKlgnE

  7. bciv United Kingdom Google Chrome Windows says:

    “So the little side war between CIA and ISI elements is coming into the open.”

    ..thanks to the all-knowing and all-seeing Raj (TOO)

  8. Raj (The Other One) Germany Safari Mac OS says:

    bciv wrote: ..thanks to the all-knowing and all-seeing Raj (TOO)

    You’re welcome. In Pakistan every conspiracy theory is valid until proven otherwise.

    Errata:
    It should read: “Instead of being outrun by the two”…

  9. Kashifiat Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    This is the true ugly face of psychopath Liberal fascist lobby, You people nothing other than the نمک خوار & غلام ابن غلام ابن غلام of USA. How much u r showing respect for your master (Bastard) by writing his name “Mr.Davis”.

    You are the garbage centers of my society & my country. You ill minded clan going to present that criminal murderer as Innocent. Can any one amongst third rated liberal lobby can produce his “Real name” ???

    Slaves ! You have no sympathy with Shumaila the widow of Faheem & u r worry about that bastard. You have seen your size 0.000000002% of society. I hate USA Govt & also to those who love & become کاسہ لیس of America.

  10. D. Asghar Canada Safari Unknow Os says:

    @Kashifiat Sahib…Thank you so much for your so kind words. With all due respect, people who do committ suicide violate the commandment of the faith that you and some of your ilk have the sole right to speak for.

    Lastly, which most of you and your ultra emotional high on false ego and impotent rage tend to forget is it is the “law” that has to prevail.

    There are other Americans, (most recently Amanda Knox), facing chargesin other countries and facing the music. So no one is out on the street crying for her freedom. For your very kind information, no one is out on the streets for Davis either. You know why, people believe that law will be followed. Whether he deserves to be in prison or at his home, will be decided.

    Note to you and your ilk, just occasionally take your very impotent rage for a change and turn it into something positive. Regards.

  11. Caroline United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Humanity and Raj (the other one) Love you both for your outstanding “take” on this whole situation!! LOL! I could have used you 2 back in the day!

  12. Sardar KHAN United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Your bias so clear in this article against people of Pakistan,Islam,Mullahas and the law of the land,makes me wonder that you realy liked Davis killing innocent(the dead persons can’t defend themselves against the blame they were robbers) men by a gun happy american.Yours just saying Davis did a wrong,doesn’t prove Pakistanis hate americans.It is not only in Pakistan that the americans are hated but also all over the world they are hated,even in the europe because of their attitude towards other nations and considering themselves as above the law of every country in the world.
    The basic question is what is that USA want’s to hide?What was his mission and going where and who he was going to meet?
    Why the diver or the persons,who killed a man on the road driving wrong way and ran away from the place,hasn’t been handed over to the police for killing a person?Isn’t it an act of rashness?If you agree with this, then you should have condenmed this act of unlawfull killing and should have demanded his/others to be handed over to police at once.
    In my thinking you are blinded by your own hatred of Muslims,which is shown clearly by your writing.

  13. Caroline United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Mr. Asghar: My apologies for my flippancy. No disrespect meant. Your article was well written and addressed both sides of the issue. It is just that after working in D.C., (a very long time ago) and seeing what the attitudes have been there and after reading all of the “media” accounts in Pakistan; what Humanity and Raj (too) wrote just seemed to sum it all up as to what a circus it has become. In reality, there really is “no way out”. Everyone seems to have their own agenda in this. Emotions seem to be running high as per usual!

  14. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @Sardar Khan and Kaashifiat

    Islam is not a tool to conduct nefarious business like yours. Please keep your teachings and your beliefs to yourself.

    Killing of innocent humans is wrong, no matter who does. The murderer must be trial in a court of law, respecting any treaty that the country has entered into. The Quran is clear about honoring a treaty. The Holy Prophet (SAW) took the treaties he had entered into very seriously. But the matter of keeping one’s word is beyond the understanding of people like Mr. Qadri. He took an oath to protect the slain governor Salman Taseer, and then pumped 27 bullets into the unarmed, unsuspecting man. Mr. Qadri is a hypocrite.

    Both Mr. Davis and Mr. Qadri must be tried for their crime of murder in the court of law, just like Ms. Aafia Siddiqui was tried in the court of law of the country of her citizenship. Mr. Davis, if he acted in self defense, must be set free. In any case, if he indeed is a diplomat, then his case should be handled according to any treaty that Pakistan has signed on.

    Both Mr. Davis and Mr. Qadri should not be used as tools for carrying forward any disingenuous agenda. If this rule is applied consistently, people can focus on the real issues, like ignorance and poverty that have shackled the masses to misery. But the (na)Pakistan game plan is hinged on keeping the donkeys tethered, while the poli-tics suck their blood and the mullah feasts on halwa the donkeys earn for them. The liberals are just exposing one more evidence of the hypocrisy of this nation.

    True Muslims are not hypocrites. The brand of religion you folks subscribe to and preach is the root cause of the diseased society. You call the murderer of an unarmed person a ghazi and and yet call yourselves Muslim. Why don’t you raise your voices for the victims of butchery that goes on in the name of honor? People like you have regressed to the pre-Islamic age. Your megalomaniac ego now exceeds that of Abu-Lahb and Abu-Jahl. You anguish for a woman who allegedly took her own life, when suicide is haram. Why are you mute when women are being murdered and mutilated left and right in the name of honor? What honor, damn it!

    Hypocrites, who peddle religion for political mileage, need not worry about Islam. The people who think God needs their help to protect His honor, will bite dust soon. Keep in mind that 1400 hundred years ago less than 0.0000002% people lead the masses out of the dark ages. Sane Muslims understand that upholding human rights is true Islam. These truly humans will carry the banner of Islam forward. Allah is, indeed, sufficient for those who believe in Him and who care for upholding basic human values.

  15. Delirium Pakistan Internet Explorer Windows says:

    D. Asghar bhai
    My opinion is vastly different from yours in this case. Most primarily, a murder has been committed and the fact that the victims were Pakistanis SHOULDN’T make the case any weaker as does the reality that the killer happens to be an American.

    The argument that had the killer been a Saudi or Emirati or Kuwaiti is highly presumptive but it still SHOULDN’T have made any difference (as long as we believe that the blood that has been spilled was human and has the same value).

    I agree that the law must prevail; whatever applies in this particular case.

    ( Not current though, written a week back), the reason why no one is buying in Mr. Davis’ account is partly explained in the seemingly well investigated article.
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/111591/lahore-shooting-some-questions/

  16. Caroline United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Humanity: God bless you.

  17. PMA United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Mr. D. Asghar: You had me all confused. You seem to be staggering all over the place. What is your position on this case? What are you really trying to say?

  18. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “People like you have regressed to the pre-Islamic age. ”

    “Keep in mind that 1400 hundred years ago less than 0.0000002% people lead the masses out of the dark ages.”

    Humanity,
    You do your id a great disservice by dashing off statements like that. The pre-Islamic age was not the jahiliya that you guys claim. In fact, if, as you claim, that Islam took pre-Islamic people out of the dark ages, shouldn’t the cause of the current backwardness in the Muslim world be ascribed to Islam. If, on the other hand, you say that this is due to Muslims not following “true” Islam, wouldn’t it be right to say that the presumed dark ages(an unadulterated nonsense) in pre-Islamic era was due to the people not following the tenets of their religion seriously, whether it be Jewish, Hindu, Christians, or the church of Kermit the frog.
    When you make statements like that without due historical research, we, the unbelievers, wonder who is the judge and who is the executioner.

  19. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Not so fast young man. Be objective!

  20. D. Asghar Canada Safari Unknow Os says:

    @PMA Bhai Sahib, I think Humanity Bhai has echoed my position quite beautifully. Any addition to this would be like as we say in Urdu, “Showing a candle to the Sun “, if I translated accurately.

    In the end, the law must and should prevail. Whether it is a trial or treaty and victims must be compensated for their loss. The investigations and its results must be transparent so there is no confusion. Humble regards.

  21. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Bade Miyan
    I am talking of pre-islamic age of jahaliya in the Arab society, when the birth of a daughter was mourned and she was buried alive. When dissent was repressed with torture and human rights were trampled upon.

    Kar yaad zara wo waqt behan, jaab zida ghari jati thee
    Ghar ke diwaraiN roti the, jaab duniya maiN too aati thee
    (Recall the time, O’ sister when you were buried alive
    The walls of the house weeped, when you came into this world)

    Unfortunately the birth of a daughter is still mourned in the Indian, Arab, Chinese, and many other societies. Female fetus is aborted, girls are burnt and buried alive, their ears and nosed are chopped off in the name of some damned honor. And yet, the same frail female is responsible for carrying the lineage forward. How ironic!

    The practice of female genocide was categorically prohibited with the advent of Islam. Slavery was rejected as a grave sin. The status of a woman was raised by giving her rights that most non-Muslim women started to enjoy only a handful of decades ago. Paradise was declared to lie under mother’s feet. A human’s identity on the Day of Judgment was attributed to the mother. This is the high pedestal on which Islam seats a woman. So we better know who are mothers are and treat them well!

    Islam laid down a supreme code of behavior that would truly justify a human to be considered ashraful makhlukaat, the best creation among all of God’s creations. Upholding human rights forms the foundation of this code. The attributes of justice, compassion, love, forgiveness, mercy and tolerance are repeated over and over in the Quran. These attributes were personified by the Holy Prophet (SAW) through out his life. Such was the true Islam which took deep root in a short period of twenty years and swept over to the farthest corner in a couple of hundred years. The harmony of the true message of Islam with human nature is undeniable. It is the beauty of this message that draws people to this way of life. It teaches humans how to become the best of God’s creation.

    Indeed, the prevalent Muslim mindset is decayed and has regressed to the pre-Islamic dark ages. Muslims do what Islam rejects in the strongest words. Those who murder and oppress in the name of Islam are misguided souls. These unfortunate people miss out on the sublime opportunity of a peaceful co-existence with humanity and nature. Their misinterpreted, violent way of life shuts the possibility of true communion with God, the fountain head of absolute benevolence and love.

    Please forgive me, if I sound judgmental. My religion, Islam, teaches me to live and let live. It teaches me to promote peace and speak against inhjustice. I am no one to judge, but I will not stay mute when murder and hypocrisy are practiced in the name of Islam.

  22. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    erratum ..
    the walls of the house wept ..

  23. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Humanity,
    The Prophet’s 1st wife was a well-to-do woman who, by all accounts, was a successful business woman as well. That was before Islam was introduced. Things are not always black and white. I am not aware of any religion that condones female infanticide. In spite of the Prophet’s message, female genital mutilation is most prevalent in the Muslim nations. Obviously, the message was not strong enough.

  24. Tilsim United Kingdom Safari Mac OS says:

    @ Humanity

    “The brand of religion you folks subscribe to and preach is the root cause of the diseased society. You call the murderer of an unarmed person a ghazi and and yet call yourselves Muslim. ”

    That is the crux of the matter. Well said.

  25. alakshyendra India Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Unfortunately the birth of a daughter is still mourned in the Indian, Arab, Chinese, and many other societies.

    except for some arab countries, the position of women in the other countries you listed (and all over the rest of the world) seems to be much better than in pakistan. What gives?

    now please don’t tell us that it is the hindu influence that is the cause. if the hindus can overcome hindu influence, surely you as muslims can do it too?

  26. Bin Ismail Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Bade Miyan

    1: “…..if, as you claim, that Islam took pre-Islamic people out of the dark ages, shouldn’t the cause of the current backwardness in the Muslim world be ascribed to Islam…..”

    I’m afraid not. The movement from darkness towards light, is the direction that defines Islam. Any movement towards darkness, would thus be, in a direction that defines the antonym of Islam.

    2: “…..In spite of the Prophet’s message, female genital mutilation is most prevalent in the Muslim nations. Obviously, the message was not strong enough…..”

    Female circumcision was a pre-Islamic practice, a practice that was abandoned with the advent of Islam. It was a cultural thing that was found in several, and not all tribes. Incidentally, it is not the only cultural feature that is not Islamic and is yet practiced by some Muslims. With respect to “the message”, I would be of the opinion that while the message was perfect and perfectly clear too, not all recipients of the message accepted it in its totality.

  27. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Bin Ismail,
    So, does Islam, as you understand it, accord equal status to every religion?

  28. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Kaashifiat

    I scanned the link you requested to read and could not finish reading it. Unfortunately, the narrative is a message of hate and hypocrisy. You are part of the problem, unless you show you published a similar message to condemn the murder committed by Mr. Qadri. Please don’t use the crutch of namoos-e-rasool to justify Mr. Taseer’s murder. Rest assure, God does not rely on lowly humans to protect the honor of His belove Prophet (SAW). Please get this mushriqana presumption out of your head. This belief is akin to becoming a partner with God. Be fearful of ascribing partners to God.

    If you have the love of God in your heart, your one sided, hypocritical reaction full of hatred and rage has got to stop. We don’t know the real story of the Davis case. The court should be allowed to deal with it, keeping in mind that Pakistan is bound to honor any international treaties.

    Similarly, the Qadri case should be handled in the court without collusion and pressure of public unrest. The man murdered an unarmed person; whom he was supposed to protect. Where is your cry for justice for Salman Taseer? I don’t hear your call for blood for blood for the Qadri case. Instead you want Mr. Qadri to go free and revere him as a champion of Islam. Why? You weep for Ms. Kanwal. Where is your anguish for woman whose husband chopped off her hands because she gave birth to a fourth daughter? Where is your honor when women are paraded naked in the streets? Are these unfortunate women not the daughters of this nation? Is there any shame left in owners of Islam?

    If you refuse to answer why your ghairaat is aroused selectively, then permit me to answer this question for you. It is because hatred has permeated in the soul of the society. People see a ‘tinka’ in others eyes and don’t see the ‘sheteer’ in their own. The society has decayed to lower than animals. That is what happens when people become God and decide who is a Muslim and who is not, and they gloat on their ‘power’ by taking away human rights. God is One and Only. He does not like when people mess around with His Oneness. Don’t you see that Pakisan has actually become (na)Pakistan? Stop messing with God’s Oneness, if you seek salvation. Become human.

    The real tangible enemy is the avarice of elite and the hypocrisy of the mullah; ignorance and poverty are the fuel that keep the evil business humming. And when a calamity befalls, the superior Muslims rush to their god, America, with begging bowls in their hand. I see no riots and rallies with banners ‘ We will sacrifice our lives but not beg from America and the West’ and “Himmat-e mardaan, maddad-e-Khudda”. The misguided religion preached by the god faher of (na)Pakistan and his agents has only created hypocrites.

    Henry Kissinger once said “America doesn’t have friends, America only has interests.” Unfortunately, Pakistan has neither friends, nor any interests. Pakistan is Ms. Kanwal; betrayed by her own; despondent and deprived of desire to live and give. Ms. Kanwal allegedly took her own life. Pakistan, too, is self-destructing. It sees no future, because there is no future.

    Pakistan wants to take but it does not want to give. It does not work that way. Believe me, if Pakistan is not tired of its tantrums, the rest of the world is. Don’t test the patience of others. Please don’t continue to blame America for the miseries of Pakistan. America will do what is in America’s interest. Why does Pakistan not do what is in Pakistan interest? Why does Pakistan expect America to fix her problems?

    The blame game and demands for unjustifiable entitlements have gone on for too long. So step up to the plate and take responsibility to create a civil society which requires people be guaranteed their rights. Work hard with honesty and integrity. Nurture compassion and tolerance. Earn respect and trust among the polity of nations. Do what other people do; cherish the gift of life and live. Otherwise, prepare to be swept away like dirt. The choice is yours.

  29. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @alakshyendra
    “except for some arab countries, the position of women in the other countries you listed (and all over the rest of the world) seems to be much better than in pakistan. What gives?”

    It is true, the ‘apparent’ position of women in other countries is better than in Pakistan. I am not so sure about the Indian women though. In reality, most cultures are discriminatory towards woman. Most culture use woman as a commodity. Just look at the commercials. The honored status of a woman in Islam is one of the facets of the beauty of the true message of Islam. Woman is not only equal to a man, she is to be handled with tender love and care.

    The cultural influence on the Muslims all over the world is a part and parcel of who they are. It is a fact that the birth of a daughter is still mourned in India. It is a fact the tradition of dowry in the Pakistan is a carry over from the Hindu tradition. Similarly there are other horrible traditions people carry on despite calling themselves Muslims.

    I have written clearly, I think, that the prevalent way of life in Pakistan and other Muslim countries has regressed into the dark ages. Religion, itself, has been molested by the stalwarts of religion. If the moderate Muslims can some how find the courage to separate state and religion, Pakistan has the capacity to become a shinning example of how human ought to live.

    I, for one, take pride in my Indian roots which no when can take away from me. Moderate muslims are grateful for the true enlightenment that shows us that salvation is through the service and love of humanity. Islam, being a universal message, leads to enlightenment by shunning what is wrong and embracing what is right. Islam is water; the very essence of life. Mix sweetness and it becomes sweet. Add poison and it kills.

  30. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Humanity,
    “The honored status of a woman in Islam is one of the facets of the beauty of the true message of Islam. Woman is not only equal to a man, she is to be handled with tender love and care.”

    Not sure about that, mate. The moment a system allows a man to take 4 wives, no matter how stringent the conditions are, and doesn’t allow the woman to do the same, this charming theory about women being equal to man goes down the toilet. It’s revealing that the “dark” pre-Islamic age in Pakistan gave Taxila University, and as for Islamic Pakistan, well, the result is there for all to see.
    Classical Hinduism had no dowry system in place. Even now, in some matriarchal system as in Kerala and North East, there is no dowry.
    Since BI hasn’t answered my query, would you kindly answer if Islam accords equal status to every religion?

  31. Bin Ismail Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Bade Miyan (February 8, 2011 at 9:03 pm)

    “…..Bin Ismail, So, does Islam, as you understand it, accord equal status to every religion?…..”

    Thank you. As I understand it:

    1. Islam accords equal status to followers of all religions and schools of thought, on the plane of Humanity.

    2. Islam teaches that the state should accord equal status to all its citizens, irrespective of their religions and schools of thought.

    3. On the plane of spirituality, however, Islam recognizes the existence of different strata.

  32. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “On the plane of spirituality, however, Islam recognizes the existence of different strata.”

    Could you kindly elaborate what those strata are, or, to make it simple, who is at the top of that strata?
    If it’s Islam at the top, then which Islam: Shia, Sunni, or Ahmediyya?

  33. Kaalket United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Humanity,
    Do you accept then that Islam failed to do self claimed “uplifting ” as most regressed societies in this modern world belong to the Islamic areas . Before you claim that islam is perfect but humanity failed, please keep in mind that Kuffar world have been pointing fingers and accusing this doctrine for heaping many disasters on humanity. Kaffirs have made judgement from their actual experience with this doctrine in action. Why do you think all the world leaders,prominent personalities have to qualify their statement with the peaceful nature of Islam when non of the other religion either require or make such taxing demand?
    My reason for asking all these questions is that major chunk of humanity have rejected or never accepted the islamic claims yet Musalmans dont seem to comprehend that bringing same islamic framework of refrences in interaction with Kuffar dont cut the ice. What tribal Arabs did or think in 6th Century is utterly irrlevant to Kaffirs and this current scientific era which ask proof of claim and not just Belief. Till human beings are treated and seen without using the islamic glasses, there can be no amount of understanding with kaffirs who BTW have created much better, humane and compasisonate world than any so called God’s messengers could even dream of.

  34. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Bade Miyan
    “The moment a system allows a man to take 4 wives, no matter how stringent the conditions are, and doesn’t allow the woman to do the same, this charming theory about women being equal to man goes down the toilet.”
    Multiple wives are allowed for the protection of a woman; with the permission of the current wive(s) to give her a respectable status in the society under the circumstances when she would other wise be left unprotected. Not may people actually meet the requirements. It is still a better option than carrying multiple mistresses around; using women for pleasure but not given them the legal status and rights that are granted to a wife. Allowing more than one wives is, therefore, an honorable provision. On the other hand, no sane woman wants to have multiple husband. The society as we know it, would break down if women started having multiple husbands. There is wisdom in the divinely designed code for humanity.

    “It’s revealing that the “dark” pre-Islamic age in Pakistan gave Taxila University, and as for Islamic Pakistan, well, the result is there for all to see.”

    No one claims it was pitch dark before the advent of Islam. Taxila and other civilizations produced highly sophisticated societies, which fell for one reason or another. The Holy Prophet (SAW) encouraged people to travel to China, if they had to, toacquire knowledge. Islam does not discredit the monumental heights that the pre-Islamic civilizations had achieved. It is disingenuous to consider Islamic Pakistan any achievement. Islamic Pakistan is an oxymoron. Pakistan, as it exists today, is not Islamic, by any stretch of imagination. The disservice that the god father of (na)Pakistan and his jihadis have done to Islam and Pakistan is shameful. The society has become a hopeless lot, banging their heads in the darkness they have surrounded themselves with.

    “Classical Hinduism had no dowry system in place.”

    So classical Hinduism got polluted with the passage of time, just like Islam is polluted with the passage of time. This is why reformers are needed to draw humanity back towards enlightenment. A human is most impatient being and loves instant gratification. They fall very quickly for the devilish ways. They twist and turn the traditions to justify the end. All religions originated from the same God and, therefore, their message must be consistent. It is the people who add and subtract to it the message and cause havoc for themselves and every one else.

    The Holy Quran declares there is no coercion in religion. So to you your way, and to me mine. We just need to agree to live and let live, respecting each others rights. It is actually a lot simpler than humans have made it out to be. We and out megalomaniac egos :)

    Peace!

  35. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Kaalket
    “Do you accept then that Islam failed to do self claimed “uplifting ” as most regressed societies in this modern world belong to the Islamic areas . Before you claim that islam is perfect but humanity failed, please keep in mind that Kuffar world have been pointing fingers and accusing this doctrine for heaping many disasters on humanity. Kaffirs have made judgement from their actual experience with this doctrine in action. Why do you think all the world leaders,prominent personalities have to qualify their statement with the peaceful nature of Islam when non of the other religion either require or make such taxing demand?”

    My question to you is, why Kuffar are so afraid of Islam? Let me tell you why. The beauty of Islam, when correctly understood, subdues the most adamant opposer. The Mongols, after wreaking havoc and making towers of Muslim skulls in Baghdad, ended up embracing Islam. You tell me, why they did so when they were the super power, the victors? Those who set out on the quest to disprove the truth of Islam end up becoming its most ardent supporters. Islam does not win land or material. It wins hearts! The Kuffar are afraid of Islam because of the human megalomania ego! They resist submitting to the Creator.

    The Kuffar’s shield against Islam is to project it as a violent way of life. Unfortunately, the Jihadis are playing into the hands of Kuffars.

    “My reason for asking all these questions is that major chunk of humanity have rejected or never accepted the islamic claims yet Musalmans dont seem to comprehend that bringing same islamic framework of refrences in interaction with Kuffar dont cut the ice. What tribal Arabs did or think in 6th Century is utterly irrlevant to Kaffirs and this current scientific era which ask proof of claim and not just Belief..”

    Major chunk of humanity rejecting Islamic claims does not mean Islam is flawed. People reject the existence of God. It does not mean, God is flawed. The proof of the One God lies in each cell of your body. The proof of One God lies in the stars that are more numerous than the grains of sand on this earth. The proof of God lies in your quest whether or not you should believe. If there is no God, then why do you even think of the questions that you pose? Have you wondered about why you even bother to doubt about the existence of God? Try as much as you like, you won’t be able to shake the yearning in your soul to submit to your Creator :)

    “Till human beings are treated and seen without using the islamic glasses, there can be no amount of understanding with kaffirs who BTW have created much better, humane and compasisonate world than any so called God’s messengers could even dream of.”

    That is a childish argument. From the vantage point of my Islamic glasses, you appear to be a inquisitive human, anguished by your quest to find your Creator. Look within. He lives in your heart, man! Meditate sincerely and your doubt will melt, inshaAllah!

    Peace and best wishes to my fellow human who is engaged in the most meaningful quest of life! :)

  36. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    erratum.. “We and our megalomaniac egos :)

  37. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “Multiple wives are allowed for the protection of a woman. Allowing more than one wives is, therefore, an honorable provision.”

    It’s a sad society where a woman has to get married to an already married man to escape being labeled a mistress. I am sure a lot of women would vehemently disagree with that “honorable” provision.

    “On the other hand, no sane woman wants to have multiple husband. The society as we know it, would break down if women started having multiple husbands.”

    Have you ever asked a woman about that? I am pretty sure women are much more capable(sexually or otherwise) to have 4 partners at a time than the other way around. There are still some societies in Tibet where polyandry is practiced and, by all accounts, they live quite happily. Why should the happiness of a society depend on the sacrifice of a woman. That is just pure garbage.

    “All religions originated from the same God and, therefore, their message must be consistent. ”

    I commend you on that thought. If you truly believe in that message, “to each his own”, then it’s just logical to assume that all paths lead to God and there is not just one “best” way to reach that goal. Nevertheless, I am waiting for BI to enlighten me about the spiritual plane stuff.

  38. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @ Bade Miyan
    The purpose of multiple wives is not to validate sexual promiscuity. It is to give sanctity to a women in need of protection.

    It is a hypocritical society where married men keep one wife and many mistresses. It is disgrace to the institution called marriage. If the extra marital relationship is for lust, it is sin. If the relation ship is to support the woman, then call why not marry her and call her a wife.

    I don’t know how happy the people practicing polyandry really are. It sounds a very complex arrangement in terms of assigning fatherhood responsibilities.

    Each one has to walk his or her own path to God. Hence, Islam prohibits coercion in religion.

  39. Kaalket United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Humanity,
    Have you heard about the Brahmcharya? When society produce men of high moral standard and charachter practicng continent and non covetness then where is the question of Lust. Except his wife, if a man can develop attitude of considering her sister, child, mother or simply Divine then this low level of Lustful understaning wont exist are first place. No surprise, Muslammans are incapable of such lofty ideals.
    Muslamans are so blinded by the Arabian system that they automatically assume that shortcomings of Arabs exist among all other people. This is just straight forwad lowering of the human statandards than uplifting their charachter. Islam fails in taking this constructive attitude . Is it the same justification for bedding the woman few hours after murdering her whole family inc husband ?Please explain if these are the highest Morals from the Godhood of Islam .

  40. Raj (The Other One) Germany Safari Mac OS says:

    Humanity wrote: The purpose of multiple wives is not to validate sexual promiscuity. It is to give sanctity to a women in need of protection.

    So first men threaten the safety of women, and when they need protection, they offer them protection by bedding them. Great! Why create such a security situation that women should need protection! Hain ji?

    What one needs in degenerated societies gone crazy are a lot of educated and confident Amazonas ready to give a hard kick on the nuts of men, who either threaten her or even imply a second “marriage”, women who can laugh off some man’s offer of “protection”.

  41. Major United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Mr Humanity – looks like you have taken up the difficult job of defending islam – painstakingly white-washing all sorts of grandiose ideals on it against all evidence to contrary…

    Well, good luck on that… pakis have been doing this for a long time – but I am not you can really sell the pig no matter how much lipstick it wears…

  42. Kaalket United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Pakistan, Islam,Al Kitab,Arabs and their Godhood have been accusing Kuffar for long time. Truth and fairness demand that Kuffar have the right to accuse the accusor/s and show the beauty of freedom of thought, the complete harmony of deeds and sayings, lofty ideals of much much higher degree and standards than purposed and assumed by the Arabian Dogma. Not only in existance but in practice too. Like they says , Truth will always be the winner for Truth is God Himself.Let no one insult and defile Godhood by assigning personal lust and sexual exploitation by the posession of right hand .

  43. Humanity United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @kaalket “Truth and fairness demand that Kuffar have the right to accuse the accusor/s and show the beauty of freedom of thought, the complete harmony of deeds and sayings, lofty ideals of much much higher degree …”

    Why are Kuffar so niggardly when giving credit to Islam? Islam espouses boundless freedom of thought. Just like the Kuffar have the utmost freedom to express their thoughts, so do the Muslims. Islam, however, admonishes Muslims from hurling baseless accusations that only endanger the harmony of a society.

    Let all honor and worship the Godhead by ascribing the message of peace and justice to emanate from the One and Only, Holy God. Let no one insult and defile the message of God by attributing lust and sexual exploitation to its meaning; be it by twisted interpretation of the possession of right hand or through character assassination of the gopis of Vrindavan.

    The Holy Quran grants humans the right to aspire to as loft ideal as they choose. I end this exchange with a message of peace from the Holy Quran:
    Lakum Deena Kum, Waliya Deen
    (To you be your way of life and for me be my way of life).

    Thank you and regards!

  44. Heavy_Petting United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Humanity

    Take cover. Lofty Hindu internet warriors are after you. Don’t waste your time with them.

  45. alakshyendra India Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Humanity

    {{I am not so sure about the Indian women though. In reality, most cultures are discriminatory towards woman.}}

    just because you aren’t sure doesn’t make it true. as much as i feel that comparisons are odious and often misplaced, indian women have achieved much more in contrast to pakistani women. is there a single equivalent of indra nooyi, kiran mazumdar shaw among pakistani women?

    {{The honored status of a woman in Islam is one of the facets of the beauty of the true message of Islam. Woman is not only equal to a man, she is to be handled with tender love and care.}}

    it is this condescending attitude towards women that is the cause for all ills. by being so, you straightaway reduce women to the position of being subordinate and weaker to men. no wonder veena malik is looked upon as a slut where as imran khan can get away with murder.

    {{It is a fact that the birth of a daughter is still mourned in India. It is a fact the tradition of dowry in the Pakistan is a carry over from the Hindu tradition.}}

    this is a lame cop-out. it is a fact that there are several backward segments of indian population that aren’t exactly happy when a girl child is born. it is also true that there are cases of femlae infanticide prevalent among them. but to say that their birth is mourned is being liberal with falsehood (yep, that’s my way of saying “being economical with truth”).

    in any case, islam was supposed to have found cures for all the pre-islamic jahiliya. why exactly then is this practice still in vogue? why are women being honor killed? why are there mukhtaran mais?

    I have written clearly, I think, that the prevalent way of life in Pakistan and other Muslim countries has regressed into the dark ages. Religion, itself, has been molested by the stalwarts of religion. If the moderate Muslims can some how find the courage to separate state and religion, Pakistan has the capacity to become a shinning example of how human ought to live.

    {{Islam is water; the very essence of life. Mix sweetness and it becomes sweet. Add poison and it kills}}

    the same can be said of every other religion. but no religion has been misused to the extent islam has been. wonder why?

  46. Bin Ismail Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Bade Miyan (February 8, 2011 at 11:29 pm)

    “…..Could you kindly elaborate what those strata are, or, to make it simple, who is at the top of that strata?…..”

    With pleasure. What I had said was: “On the plane of spirituality, however, Islam recognizes the existence of different strata”.

    The concept of strata in the realm of spirituality, refers to the various levels of “nearness to God”. And “nearness to God”, as you would appreciate is not a physical nearness. This is a spiritual state. You would also appreciate that God alone can know who is on which stratum of spirituality. Therefore, while Islam does recognize the existence of different spiritual strata, Islam does not authorize humans to judge the spiritual status of other humans, and leaves this judgement to God alone. To summarize:

    a) Islam gives complete freedom to every human being to practice, profess and preach the religious beliefs of his choice
    b) Islam does not permit any form of coercion in matters of religion
    c) Islam acknowledges that there are different levels of nearness to God
    d) Islam rests the final judgement with God

    Regards
    Bin Ismail

  47. Kaalket United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Bade Miyan,
    Got and deserve his weasel !!
    BI ,
    Per Islam, How close will one be to God if a person sleep with a woman the very day her husbad and family was killed by his order, one of them after mild tortured with fire?

  48. Kaalket United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Humanity claims Lakum Deena Kum, Waliya Deen and i agree. Please tell me then why have islam interfered in Indic way of life as Islamic narrative is utterly irrelevant and alien to us. There is no valid reason for its existence on Indian land. Going by Carvamen theory, the short stay is over and its time the travellers go back home with their culture and children and leave the occupied land for good use of Kuffar.

  49. Bin Ismail Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Kaalket (February 9, 2011 at 11:12 pm)

    “…..BI , Per Islam, How close will one be to God if a person sleep with a woman the very day her husbad and family was killed by his order, one of them after mild tortured with fire?…..”

    Before I reply to your query, it would seem appropriate that you gave us the details of this account, the primary source of its reference, and also verify that you were able to examine the details you read without any pre-existing prejudice. At the very outset, however, what I can tell you is that a person who thrives on hatred, calumny and slander does indeed deserve our pity.

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