Pak Tea House » Pakistan, USA » America’s Pakistan
America’s Pakistan
By Muhammad Asim
The recent request made by Pakistan for the withdrawal of hundreds of US CIA agents and contracts from the country and the cessation of drone strikes comes as another sound bite as the innocent Pakistanis continue to be killed by America. With the latest plea supposedly originating from General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani himself, 335 personnel are being asked to leave the country – a figure said to represent anywhere between 25-40% of the number of foreign spies and fighter in the country. This request was relayed by General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, DG ISI, at a meeting with CIA director Leon Panetta and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen in Washington.
Such apparent shows of independence and strength have been seen before by the sceptical Pakistani public Indeed people learnt through the WikiLeaks cables of the full extent of this circus show when Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani was exposed to have reassured America that whilst much protest would be made in the National Assembly of the drone strikes the issue would in fact would not be pursued.
The reality is that Pakistan’s rulers, be they the military top brass or the civilian politicians, have failed in preserving the very basic right to life for their people. For several years drone strikes have continued with impunity on Pakistani soil resulting in the deaths of 900 people in 2010 alone. They have continued to issue ridiculous denials that the drones do not operate from Pakistan’s bases. Further, it is this same ruling elite that has allowed the emergence of a shadow spy network run by the CIA in Pakistan, challenging the very fabric of independence and security in the country.
The rulers of Pakistan have justified such developments to the people by claiming that America is an ally that is helping the country and together the two are fighting a common enemy. This could not be further from the truth. America is neither an ally of Pakistan’s nor is it fighting for anything other than its own colonial interests. For to be an ally would suggest the existence of an equal partnership based upon shared values and interests between to countries. Yet through multiple examples it can be made abundantly clear that the relationship that exists between the two is one of master to slave rather than of mutual respect and cooperation.
From the very start America issued an ultimatum to Pakistan that it was ‘either with us or the terrorists’ as it began its colonial occupation of Afghanistan. Following the capitulation of the impotent dictator Pervez Musharraf in the face of such a threat, the bullying and aggressive behaviour of America has continued unabated to this very day at severe cost to Pakistan. Economically, Pakistan has lost $63 billion since the start of America’s war in Afghanistan. Dragged in to a war against its own brethren in Afghanistan, the country is further humiliated as even the mercenary payments from the Coalition Support Fund have not been forthcoming. This has lead to a rise of 18% in this year’s defence budget to compensate at the expense of areas like healthcare and education in a largely impoverished and illiterate nation. Perhaps the most humiliating instance of failure of these ruling elites has been the Raymond Davis issue, where the CIA agent killed two Pakistanis in broad daylight and walked away without punishment.
Pakistan’s ruling elites continue to ensure that the country is in no position to have any demands fulfilled through their constant slavish loyalty to America and their betrayal of the people of Pakistan and their interests. The latest set of demands shall continue to follow the path of such other others in the past; they shall subsequently be responded to with more drone strikes and the expansion of foreign agents from the CIA and Blackwater/XE in Pakistan. America will continue to run amok in the country as long the Pakistani ruling elite sits in its pocket.
The only solution is the removal of such an elite and the political system that empowers them. The Arab revolts across the Middle East have shown that in the face of solid political will from the people, even the most hardened and resilient rulers are swept away. The people of Pakistan need to come together and speak with one voice that they refuse to humiliated and killed in America’s colonial war and demand the removal of rulers that facilitate such actions.
Muhammad Asim.
mamuhammadasim@gmail.com
The author is a freelance columnist.
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47 Responses to "America’s Pakistan"
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Wow, this is one of the most biased articles I have ever read. Pakistan’s brethren, Afghanistan? Afghanistan doesn’t even recognize the border between our two nations, and has made incursions into our territory on multiple occasions. If anyone is our brethren then in all honesty it has to be India, since Pakistan obviously received independence from India. But Afghanistan, really? They send millions of their people into our country as refugees and then demand so many things from us, we shouldn’t help them at all in my opinion.
very well written! If only we could do something to save our country and not be silent spectators of its downfall!
[...] Read more… [...]
Husain Mirza, we can’t dissociate Pakistan from Afghanistan or India. If pathans and punjabis are both recognized as Pakistanis, we must all be allies – for our own good. Not only allies, we are the same people.
“Hate is not the opposite of love – indifference is.” Alexander Nehamas
[...] America’s Pakistan [...]
“The only solution is the removal of such an elite and the political system that empowers them.”
The system in Pakistan is called a democracy. If it is removed what will take its place? If the army has also failed to protect Pakistanis- what alternative system is suggested?.
“The Arab revolts across the Middle East have shown that in the face of solid political will from the people, even the most hardened and resilient rulers are swept away.”
The Arab revolts are against dictatorships. You have an election coming up in less than two years and you can remove your leaders then. In the interim Pakistanis can get their protests registered through other methods known to civil society.
” The people of Pakistan need to come together and speak with one voice that they refuse to humiliated and killed in America’s colonial war and demand the removal of rulers that facilitate such actions.”
It is emphatically not a colonial war. It can be cogently argued that the war is an outcome of the policies pursued by the US and Pakistan in a presumed common interest. That common interest is now revealed to be actually divergent. It always was but it took a long time for events to play out and reveal the divergence. Pakistanis need to come together on many things of crucial importance to Pakistan’s existence, not just the drone attacks. But you must first agree on what those things are.
Pakistani leaders since 1950 at least have suggested to the Americans that Pakistan’s national interest is aligned with the national interest of the US. It was in pursuit of a US alliance that Pakistan offered itself as a front line ally against Russia in the Afghan war and on the so called WoT, but the latter war was based on a double deceit and it is the consequences of that deceit that are now troubling Pakistan.
Pakistan has a real problem on its hands because its actual policy and the structures and institutions erected to sustain it are now strained beyond their limits. There is no further flex left to continue fulfilling American objectives.
The choice now lies between abandoning the policy, the structures and institutions; this choice carries the seeds of a dangerous internal conflict; or, less plausibly looking wishfully to China for succour, though Chinese intervention unlikely though it is, would create an even greater set of problems for Pakistan.
A third solution, one that may appeal to supporters of the Clash of Civilization school, would be the most dangerous of all. Pulling down the government cannot create any new options for Pakistan.
Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet, Sri Lanka – all these are very similar (not same) – or to be more precise – were similar earlier and still largely are.
Till this 7th century arab religion came and deep-ploughed and sowed the poisonous seeds of violence, lies, bribery in the name of an arab god, imperialism, totalitarian theology, arabic hegemony and racism, west-asiatic revelation-based fascism etc.
Before that it was not all ideal (nowhere in the world was it ideal), but the coming of this arab religion has worsened the situation, and the arrogance and indoctrination by this religion has made every possibility of a solution vanish.
Are you looking for solutions in the darkness under the huge heavy umbrella of this religion – there are no solutions to be found there.
Pakistan could not have been created without encouraging slander, hatred and anger against India and hindus. And hence Pakistan cannot be maintained without slander, hatred and anger against India and hindus. This anger has made the pakistanis blind and anyone who helps them hurt India and hindus is their “friend” by definition, by ideological-religious compulsion. Thus Pakistan readily participates in every mischief by the powers (USA, Saidi Arabia and now China) if it hurts India sooner or later. “So long his nose is cut I am happy, even if during that process I lose both my hands and eyes” – that is pakistani politics vis a vis India.
We are a bullied nation – so long our system of electing our legislators allows loopholes and brings in people who can be bullied easily without resisting, or as our ambassador in the USA calls us the rug sellers, we will continue to be everyone’s Pakistan.
M K “Mahatma” Gandhi said once “The muslim is by nature a bully”. This is quoted in the book by his grandson Rajmohan Gandhi.
Indeed, Pakistan was created through various bullying tactics.
Now the real bullies/blackmailers are the pakistani rulers and political, army and religious leaders. But bullying, extorting (kidnapping) and blackmailing seems to be quite common among the pakistani people too (as I gather from pakistani newspapers). The nation was created through bullying so bullying is, not surprisingly, the national character.
Jalal Hameed should come out of this pakistani habit of falsely regarding Pakistan and pakistanis as innocent victims.
Too long this Abrahamic horror movie is being played – 3Maderchods ie Mohammay, Macaulay & Marxay. Oh natives wake up and own your own spirituality, language, culture, ancestry and history. In 40 years Mahammay wiped out local spirituality of present day Iran. How? By making the law that the Kuffar cannot have any material possession. Some darbari gaandu converted to keep his gaddi. His brothers converted immediately, otherwise this darbari gandu could now own their share of land and ancestral wealth. Thus avalanche started. Do you remember the stampede in the movie Simba when Mufasa, Simba’s dad gets killed. Truly this abrahamic Gandugiri and also other red, white and wall-street driven are utterly materialistic armed-legions (religions). No spirituality, No community culture building. Their culture is of darbari SheroShayari when their sisters are dancing to please the exploiters and plunderers. Utterly enslaved gandu ManSingh culture. Rootless Gandus! Period!
Oh AllahRakhi wake up! Own your RamKaliness and throw away this Arabi camel which has taken over your home.
@viva
“…..Till this 7th century arab religion came and deep-ploughed and sowed the poisonous seeds of violence, lies, bribery in the name of an arab god, imperialism, totalitarian theology, arabic hegemony and racism, west-asiatic revelation-based fascism…..”
The respective priesthoods of the “recent” 4th millennium BC religion and the “ancient” 7th century AD religion are the two best things that ever happened to the Subcontinent.
“…..M K “Mahatma” Gandhi said once “The muslim is by nature a bully”…..”
Prophetic words, I must say. Eventually, N “Syed Abdul Kareem” Godse did succeed in bullying Gandhi to death.
Bin//Prophetic words, I must say. Eventually, N “Syed Abdul Kareem” Godse did succeed in bullying Gandhi to death.//
I sympathize with your angst…Gandhi was murdered since many thought he was too kind to another new nation called Pakistan….Those ‘many’ were incorrect to a very large extent….Gandhi the greatest human being ever to grace subcontinent in the 20th Century was misconstrued as too weak and useless to contain communal havoc unleashed by muggers….
Dear Bin, Viva speaks of historical aggression of Muslims over the centuries and the effect it has had on the subcontinent in various forms and means. After having read him in various avatars and forms over many months, I am convinced he is not against Islam but against some very funny and archaic practices which affect not just you but ALL OF US in absolute totality.
Some of the issues that comes up repeatedly –
a) BRINGING RELIGION EVERYWHERE – even whilst one breathes…. We feel religion should be a tool to survive and not the very form of survival itself! Many muslims dont understand the thin veil differentiating both. You do but I am afraid many dont. Wouldnt it be nicer if you left religion within the 4 walls of your homes and be an absolute human with blood and flesh like any other but! devoid of any religion and the associated GIMMICKS??
b) APPRECIATING MAJORITY PRACTICES IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES BUT OPPOSING MAJORITY SUPPORT FOR REFORMS IN MUSLIM MINORITY COUNTRIES…… For instance, Parsis were decimated in Iran over the last 60 years deliberately and more over the last 30 years ever since the Ayatollah took over. Not much debated. It is estimated there are about 2500 Parsis in their homeland. What an end to a mighty tribe !! However, when Sarkozy the Great brings in a brave rule to disband the ARCHAIC veil practice in France, every one yells through his Gut and enlives the grandness of his religion….I must admit, butter to an eye cannot be slaked lime paste to another eye…
c)MOST IMPORTANT – Looking down upon every other religion as KUFFR ie. worthy of a kill and wanton destruction. Thus anyone who is outside the islamic band becomes a recipe for elimination. It has so become so intolerant that variants of islam are being decimated since Sauds the mf’s to establish their version of Wahabbi islam everywhere (Tolerant nations of Indonesia, Malaysia have become very intolerant of late due to this funding menace over few decades)
I agree Viva goes overboard…he should not…probably he will end one day. But do you have a long term solution. He is disgusted. Many of us are. Where is the solution?
I think Sultan 2 pointed out somewhere to ‘Hazrat Krishan Kumar’ being vilified in our texts…We will play fun at him, spook him around and yet celebrate his greatest gifts to the society in the form of the GITA… then…this is us in all fairness…will your tribe allow you to do so ie treat Hazrat Muhammad as a human being with all the follies and yet celebrate him? Can Islam EVER BE TOLERANT????
Thanks
Till such time there is no no open debate amongst Muslim majority societies on above questions, there will not be any peace in their system. Even those who are LARGELY peaceful have to turn communal slowly but surely. Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are stellar examples. Bangladesh shines SOLELY due to Banga Bandhu’s pragmatic Daughter and not due to any ‘revolution’ unleashed by the ‘same old’ society
Prasad,
The Trinity of Muhamamd, Allah and Islam , as great Khan mentioned, is beyond criticism among Muslims. What they dont udnerstand is that this very trinity is the one which egged them to come in conflict with Kuffar world. Basically, Kuffar world now has issue with all these 3 in smilar fashion these 3 have panga with kuffar. This century is the centiry of free ideas and free expression of thought and not of submission . Best solution is in Islam itself .Applying The idea of Dar-ul islam and Dar ul harb can avoid the inevitable conflict. Kuffar world expells Islam and islam expells Kuffar from their orignal home/s. Complete segeregation and separation esablish peace without bloodshed. Arabs/Muslims have already done this with almost 99% success rate . Its time Kuffar do same.
Sachbol:: I once thought you were Sachballs. Cannot understand a word of what you wrote…I did mention in my note that only Bin, YLH and other educated folks have the courage to understand what I wrote…not a communal nut!! BACKOFF BALLS!
to bin ismail
1) Gandhi was bullying the hindus. Everytime the hindus protested against the injustices done to them he threatened with a fast in support of muslim demands. Remember that? Gandhi betrayed the trust and love which his fellow hindus had put in him and expected him to defend them against the quislings of islam (from Arbia) and their never-ending slander and demands.
Godse decided to put an end to this bullying and betraying by this so-called Mahatma. (Personally I don’t agree with what Godse did. He should have let Gandhi live on and see for himself the development in Pakistan and thus realize the idiocy in giving in to the demands of the quislings of islam. It would have helped the hindus better if Gandhi and lived longer and admitted his blunder of appeasing the quislings of arabic imperialism). After killing Gandhi Godse did not run away and hide himself like the criminals and islamic killers do. He did not burden the police with any extra work.
2) ….”the “recent” 4th millennium BC religion and the “ancient” 7th century AD religion ”
Islam was finalized-fossilized the day Mohammad died. Hence it is old and worn out and needs fascism for its upkeep. Hindu religions have no final book or prophet or leader and hence they are evolving developing. ever-young,
Viva//Gandhi was bullying the hindus. Everytime the hindus protested against the injustices done to them he threatened with a fast in support of muslim demands. Remember that?/
This is the biggest insult any indian could ever give to Mr MK Gandhi. Sorry. Gandhi fasted not for Hindus or Muslims but for general peace. He KNEW HINDUS COULDNT EXTERMINATE MUSLIMS and CERTAINLY MUSLIMS NOT WITHSTANDING THEIR 1000 YEAR RULE COULDNT EXTERMINATE HINDUS…. What the heck? this man was a practical human being. His biggest contribution of not allowing a single kin of his to come to politics speaks volumes of his intentions unlike Nehru…Gandhi’s progenies have risen through ashes all through their hard work and not just because of their genes unlike Raul the dumb Gandhi who will be India’s PM one day….
Gandhi fasted 1) for his own glory and 2) for appeasing the agents and quislings of islam.
He took the hindus, his own people, for granted and ditched them.
He had an army of adulators around him and hence this bitter truth escaped from his notice.
None of his kin was capable of any sound politics. Either like Haridas, his son, they hated him or they sang his praise and made themselves into fools praising a fool.
What makes you think Rahul Gandhi is a dumb guy? Prejudice? I have met him in a small group – he is quite smart. Don’t underestimate him.
//Gandhi fasted for his own glory// OK to achieve what HISTORICAL PROMINANCE ALA ASOKA?? I think we from 20th century know this plain bull!! Gandhi fasted for India. India Fasted for Gandhi. Gandhi knew India’s veins…Indian public reciprocated. At Times he was megalomaniac….he was a human …he overcame it!! Every centre of attraction became a megalomaniac at various points of life!! YOU have loads of examples of these
As regards the other ‘Gandhi’ ‘s soundness…may I humbly point out that Sonia Gandhi was piece of shit before Narasimha Rao….it is just the Indira Gandhi’s forceful family agenda that has pushed all this while….India’s illiteracy also has a role to play….Anything HAATH is INDIRA even to this day!! Raul is enjoying the benefits….He is dumb. His sister, convert brother in law are all fiddling like typical Romans during the Roman Empire….BJP needs to grow to cut this menace….DONT BLAME GANDHI FOR ALL THIS WILL YOU?? He was just too good to be associated with these RASCALS
Viva Just cause you met Raul in ‘Small Group’ doesnt make you an Elite group in the first place and most certainly DOESNOT ELEVATE dumbness to Glorification of intelligence. You being present is not a valid certificate enough for this joker’s intelligence. Having said that he will become India’s Prime Minister in the next 10 years. That is India’s legacy
Viva//None of his kin was capable of any sound politics. Either like Haridas, his son, they hated him or they sang his praise and made themselves into fools praising a fool.//
This is ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and I am certain you will agree tomorrow morning when you wake up. What HIGH QUALITIES did MADAM Indira POSSESS….?? She was as feudal as Bhutto, As aristocratic as Bhutto and As DESTRUCTIVE as BHUTTO….JUST THAT JP DID NOT HANG THIS BITCH….Dont worship this demon. She deserved those bullets….She should HAVE NEVER ATTACKED THE SACRED TEMPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN SHE FOSTERED GROWTH OF BHINDRANWALLE…..WHOM WAS SHE PLAYING AROUND WITH????
@Prasad (April 21, 2011 at 10:44 pm)
Thank you for your response. Due to some of my comments regarding Gandhi, on another thread, some friends might be led to infer that I am as biased against Gandhi as some participants are against Jinnah. That is not the case. I respect Gandhi for his relentless efforts towards achieving independence. I also respect him for his political acumen. He was an able leader indeed. However, regarding the question of who set the trend of mixing Politics and Religion in the modern-day Subcontinent, my criticism of Gandhi is quite fact-based and dispassionate. I sincerely believe it was a mistake and an error that could have been avoided. It is my considered opinion that Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics, neither this way nor that way. The role of Religion in the public sphere turns negative when political dimensions are involved. Politics and Statecraft, in my opinion, need to be kept absolutely secular. Otherwise interfaith harmony and equality among citizens is bound to remain unachievable.
The history of aggression by political rulers is a history shared by Muslim and non-Muslim rulers both. The two greatest and most devastating world-scale wars are filled with accounts of aggression, invasion, oppression and persecution – but the element of Islamic or Muslim involvement was minimal. Rulers are rulers – whatever their professed religious inclination. They bring in Religion for political gain. However, I do admit that historically speaking, yes, the Muslim Clergy, specifically the politically inclined one, has been aggressive and oppressive. But then, we also have the dark episodes of the Inquisitions, in the history of the Church. Therefore, this feature has more to do with a politically ambitious clergy than with the dogma that the clergy claims to represent.
Can Islam ever be tolerant? Islam, the religion and philosophy, I believe is innately tolerant. Muslims, in my opinion, become intolerant when they digress from Islam. “Islam” is enshrined in the Quran and this is what the Quran says:
1: ”There is NO coercion in matters of religion.” (2:256 )
2: ”Whoever chooses to believe LET him believe and whoever chooses to disbelieve LET him disbelieve” (18:29)
3: ”Your religion is for you and my religion is for me” (109:6)
With reference to the Muslim Community at large, I think that when Muslims realize that they simply have to separate Religion and Politics, they will by reflex become more tolerant. Ataturk, Jinnah and Sheikh Hasina have, in my opinion, set worthy examples of separating State and Church.
The treatment of the Parsis in Iran is indeed as condemnable as the treatment of any religious minority persecuted anywhere in the world. Personally, I have huge respect for this very civil and industrious group of people.
Regarding Krishna, the Ahmadis believe that he was a true Prophet of God as were Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Most mainstream Muslims would disagree with this. When Ahmadis apply the title of “Hazrat” before Krishna’s name, it is not due to mundane courtesy, but on account of the immense respect and love they have for him as a prophet. According to the Quran, there are two aspects to the personality of any prophet – the human aspect and the aspect of being spoken to by God. What makes these Men of God lovable is that their humanness allows us to relate to them.
Regards
@Bin Ismail:
Having read your views off and on, I don’t doubt you are a decent man but your anti Gandhi bias is obvious. You ‘admire’ Gandhi’s political acumen and his relentless efforts.
Do you?
Gandhi strove hard for India’s Independence and harder for the sake of Hindu Muslim unity. I have yet to hear you even mention the later. Anyway,
“However, regarding the question of who set the trend of mixing Politics and Religion in the modern-day Subcontinent, my criticism of Gandhi is quite fact-based and dispassionate. I sincerely believe it was a mistake and an error that could have been avoided. It is my considered opinion that Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics, neither this way nor that way. The role of Religion in the public sphere turns negative when political dimensions are involved. Politics and Statecraft, in my opinion, need to be kept absolutely secular. Otherwise interfaith harmony and equality among citizens is bound to remain unachievable…”
It is fine to say ‘religion should not come into politics’ just like one says ‘man should be noble’ but both the positions are absurd. We know than man by nature is selfish; nobility is an afterthought.
Similalry first show me a society where religion and politics are apart. The US is ‘one nation under God’. Its Govt. openly supports religious symbols; Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. The titular head of England is also the head of the Church. Religious parties of Christian conservatives openly participate in elections in various European nations. One major party in the US has to get a nod from its religious right wing to nominate any candidate. Religious issues like abortion and school prayer are staple litmus tests for the right wing politicians in America. You get the Idea.
I will not touch the Islamic nations; I don’t want to commit ‘blasphemy’.
Then tell me how often the politicians remain scrupulous and aloof from religious causes and symbolism when needed to win elections. From John Adams to Lincoln, American political speeches are littered with religious references. The entire colonial and post colonial experience has been justified by religion. The cold war was fought by the ‘believers’ against the ‘Godless’ communists. Again you get the idea.
Now come back to Gandhi. As I wrote to you before; Gandhi wore many hats. You focus on Gandhi the politician. There was also Gandhi the social reformer, Gandhi the spiritual leader and Gandhi the journalist. Above all was Gandhi the humanist; conscience keeper of a nation.
A close look at his life suggests that it was not Gandhi the politician dragging religion into politics but rather Gandhi the social and religious leader discussing national political matters that impeded social reforms; chief amongst which was the immoral colonial rule.
While he campaigned against it he never ran for office nor did he ever solicit votes for any platform. Colonial rule was only one aspect of Gandhi’s agenda. He took on religious bigotry and argued vigorously against untouchability. Above all he spoke up for Hindu Muslim unity; a cause for which he laid down his life.
How densely biased can you be that you remain completely oblivious to all these aspect of this man?
Gandhi used his powers of persuasion and his newspaper paper to express his views. Is any of this wrong? Tell me one thing he did, as a private citizen (remember he never sought any elected office) that goes against the letter or the spirit of the Indian constitution, (which you believe was conjured up in vacuum by BRA).
Bottom line is can’t a religious leader discuss issues in the public space?
Last come to his issues and his agenda. What is it that you object?
Tolerance for all?
His fight against untouchability?
His advocacy of Hindu Muslim unity?
Or did he commit blasphemy by quoting from the Hindu and Muslim texts alike?
An alternate history of India would read that in the 1920s Gandhi started the non-cooperation movement, participation among Muslims was limited to those who were members of the Congress; Muslim Modernists did not approve of the non-cooperation movement either, and held aloof.
Since the Muslim demand for separate electorates, one-third reservation at the center etc., was not based on demands by mullahs, these demands would have remained; led to the same schism; and the same solution – Islam is in danger, there are two nations, and the Pakistani nation will be annihilated in any sort of federation. Once aroused, the Muslim masses would take it, mullah or no, that Pakistan was created for Islam and Islam was created for Pakistan.
The dynamic of Islam and politics has very little to do with non-Muslims. Meera Ghani pointed out the habit of wearing religion on the sleeve; I had asked why this arises – editorial policy had had that question deleted. The answer is that being more pious is a way of trying to get one’s way in politics. Both sides to an argument are going to claim that the Quran, the Hadith, the Sharia, etc., are on their side; but the more pious one is more likely to win that battle.
Incidentally, that is why Muslim-non-Muslim politics is so peculiar. Ahrar, Jamaat-Ulema-Hind, etc., were secular when dealing with non-Muslims because this “Quran on my side” has no weight with non-Muslims. The minute they deal with the Muslim League, their colors change. Even within the Muslim League, the instant Jinnah’s eye was not on them, the “I’m more pious than you” competition began – between Mamdot and Daultana, for instance.
This is an intrinsic weakness of the Pakistani Muslim psyche – that they are mostly rendered disarmed against the “more pious” – they feel extremely uncomfortable in speaking against the “more pious”. A gross generalization, no doubt, but it suffices to explain the political landscape. Nothing to do with mullahs as such, except that mullahs are good at this game. As long as Muslims were going to pursue “Muslim politics” and “Muslim nationhood” the outcome was inevitable.
Yeh Prophet kya Hota Hai? I know that Mohammay, Macaulay and Marxay all cared for the bottom line ie profit of few. Marxay talked about “Not allowing any one to butter his bread unless there bread for all” waigera waigera, but same Marxay was writing and guiding Angloes on how to crush first War of Independence of the natives in 1857 and exploit the natives to their bones. Similarly Arabi Abrahamic gandu Bania Mohammay wrote a lot about exploiting the “other” people, what to do with their ladki log (little4 girls as well as wives). Our folks picked their verbiage laundia waigera waigera.
Do you think Laundy is better than Aurat? Aurat means one with choot. For Arabi Bania Gandus materialistic bottom line mattered the most so they defined half of humanity just by their private part ie Choot. Does Admi mean erect Lund in arabi?
What kind of funny barbarism is this – Sir Pe Hijab and Burkha but Labon Pe Aurat ie Choot?
to bin ismail
Mohammad mixed religion and politics 1300 years before M K Gandhi did. M K Gandhi wanted to please the muslims so he imitated M.
you quoted the kuran:
1: ”There is NO coercion in matters of religion.” (2:256 )
2: ”Whoever chooses to believe LET him believe and whoever chooses to disbelieve LET him disbelieve” (18:29)
3: ”Your religion is for you and my religion is for me” (109:6)
Quote 1. is contradicted by the actual existence of several SUBTLE coercions, manipulations, threats, briberies etc.
Quote 2. does not tell us how disbelievers are actually treated by allah and by allah’s flatterers. Elsewhere in the kuran and shariah harsh or squalid treatment and vilification is heaped upon them.
Quote 3. does not really exude tolerance but only a superiority complex by muslims. It does not explicitly state the equivalence of all religions and hence manipulates towards a superiority and supremacy of islam and muslims. The finality claim of islam makes quote 3. a mere trick to pretend a non-existent tolerance and fool some doubting non-muslims.
You muslims are dyed-in-the-wool liars (or self-deceivers) because of your islam-glorifying indoctrination. Bin ismail is no exception. This islamic indoctrination of muslim children (of all ages) is actually a child molestation, therefore a severe crime. To ascribe the kuran to god is to insult him and his wisdom and intelligence.
God, are we going to fight over Without-Gandhi-There-was-No-Religion-In-Politics and Religion-And-Politics-Are-Bad issues on every board?!
Without pushing too far in that direction, I will write just one post to say – one need not go back to the time of Muhammad.
I will tell you of Gandhi’s time. A very quick Ahmadi 101. People can see if this was/is politics, religion, religion in politics, or politics in religion.
Bear with me. What ahmadis believe is not our concern. I hope some of you will see the infinite amount of false self-righteousness.
————–
Q. What is Ahmadism all about?
A. The ultimate goal of Ahmadism (more accurately, qadianism, on this earth) is the establishment of a “New World Order”.
Q. What is New (Ahamadi) World Order?
A. The goals, structures, and mechanisms of this system were put in place by the second qadiani Khalifa – Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s son.
Q. How was the system introduced to qadianis?
A. The new khalifa wrote a book – a new qadiani manifesto defining the pillars and the vision of qadiani collective life and living – called the New World Order.
Q. What did the book say?
A. All of qadianism is about ‘comparing’ different religious and political systems, every time proving Islam to be the best answer for both types of mechanisms.
In the book, the “infinitely wise” Khalfia quickly dismisses Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism (for the fans of Hindooism, Dayanand Saraswati is introduced to Muslim followers as a follower of Hitler). The infinitely wise khalifa gets down to the ‘comparing’ the following systems -
1. Democracy
2. Communism
3. Fascism/National Socialism
5. Islam
Every topic from taxation to industry policy to international relations is taken up. Followers learn things such as in democracies, minorities have no rights.
Khalifa totally proves that the BEST and the divine system of political governance is Islamic rule under a Caliph.
Q. What is the structure of this New World Order?
A. A regurgitation of a bunch of standard Islamic ideas such as prohibition of interest, everything belonging to allah and so forth. The society is ruled over by an absolutist khalifa (caliph). The wise Khalifa receives advice from appointed people, but is not bound by them.
This islamic system is adjudged the best since it balances the need for collective and divine authority (provided by Mirza) and the need for individual contributions (provided by advisors).
Q. Are individual ahmadis bound to support this political system envisioned by the second khalifa?
A. Yes. The system is divinely inspired. Only hypocrites, goes the argument as usual, will oppose it.
Q. So, what kind of support is it? Merely passive and philosophical?
A. This is a totally active, participatory commitment. In addition to systematic proselytizing, it includes paying a regular “chanda” to the khalifa so that this system of new Islamic world order can be brought about (through spread of Islam and other activities as deemed necessary). This chanda is in addition to zakat that Muslims pay toward charity.
Q. Is this a politics? Religion? Mixing of the two like Gandhi?
A. You tell me.
Q. Is there more such stuff that anyone listening to Qadiani harangues might benefit from knowing? Instances of active ahmadi religious politicking you can tell me about?
A. A lot more. Tons more. But we can only take so much of qadiani self-righteousness about not mixing religion and politics at a time.
(If I made any errors, our ahmadi brothers and sisters are sincerely requested to please point them out so we may know their arguments better.)
So it seems the Punjabi Darbari Gandu came up with
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
religion. Abrahmic Gandugiri is by design supposed to be like this.
When there is loaded Lifafa in hand Kiss Khilafa’s Ass Religion can be spread among literate but utterly brutalized enslaved masses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8I
Viva and your friends,
You are worse than the worst scum on this planet. I don’t know what kind of language and Physics you teach but no wonder the state of education in India is going down. Have an iota of self respect. Can you? Please.
to Bade Miyan
“viva and your friends”?
Who are my friends? Do I have any connection to them, who you think are my friends?
Why this wild charge?
I have used neither indecent language or flattery.
So don’t club me with those others.
Islam is a harsh arrogant religion with a harsh atttitude hence my criticism of islam is also harsh. But never indecent or filthy or obscene.
Viva,
Are you a Hindoo?
to Chan Badshah
Good question!
Hindu is one who lives in the Sindhu river basin.
The word “Sindhu” later became (through Iranians and Greeks before 330 BC) “Indus”.
So you see, I am not a hindu.
Pakistanis are the real hindus. But islam has vilified, ridiculed and humiliated the hindu identity. So the pakistani (deprived of knowledge of true history and his real dignity) wants to be a quisling of arab imperialism and a bootlicker of arabs and turks.
I am not a hindu since I do not live in the Sindhu river basin.
But I am also aware that the word “hindu” is not static and has acquired new meanings and implications.
Bade MiYaaaoun//Viva and your friends//
Please be considerate to lesser brains. All need to survive whether we are Viva’s friends or otherwise…..I agree with Vivacious that no one can be his friends…Why should we all go crank in and crank out on something that doesnt concern our lives and irritate the shit out of believers ?
I just play my two paras on weekends. Kindly bear with me Miyaaaoun
to prasad
It is not about higher or lower brains.
It is about those who protect the fascists (be it involuntarily or unknowingly) by belonging to the same ideology or religion as the fascists.
It is about the worrying inability of most people to recognize fascism as fascism.
viva
April 22, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Dont play around Chan’s feelings. Just say Yes and be done with it. Why is the emotional athyachar all over again
Prasad
There are two kinds of believers on this not-always-blessed earth. The first kind takes a shoe and worship it as the True God within the four walls of their house. They have a right to be left undisturbed, if they so please.
The second type takes the same shoe with a missing soul (sic) and proclaim it around the world as the only True God and none other is worth worshipping. Not content with their own craziness, they are willing to do a lot more in the service of their shoe without a soul – in your and our ways, in the ways of your and our children.
The irritation of the latter must be the very least of our concerns.
Aren’t there any atheists in Pakistan? Considering even the so called Paki liberals come in the form of religious nut jobs like bin ismail, you have to wonder.
I haven’t so far come across in any discussion forum an openly atheistic Pakistani muslim. This could be where the problem lies. Without Islam a Pakistani doesn’t seem to have the confidence to face the world. After living in a self glorifying and hence self reinforcing bubble of Islamism they feel naked without it. This cognitive dissonance could explain the ease with which Pakis become intellectually dishonest and also readily believe in conspiracy theories and not see their denials and delusions for what they are.
Is Laundy better word than Aurat? Or it means one who takes in Lund? Cultured Arabo and Anglo gandus can elaborate.
ShriMati, Saubhagyawati waigera waigera are beyond Abrahmic Green gandus.
That is why we say Do Damdi Ka painter Hussain is utterly brutalized and enslaved Darbari gandu. Some body should put on the youtube his mother delivering him in the hospital. what do you say? good idea?
to prasad
Chan Badshah has (I suppose) happily accepted my answer. He hasn’t contradicted me.
I had also written:
“Pakistanis are the real hindus. But islam has vilified, ridiculed and humiliated the hindu identity. So the pakistani (deprived of knowledge of true history and his real dignity) wants to be a quisling of arab imperialism and a bootlicker of arabs and turks.”
This is the cause of a fundamental and unending identity crisis and conflict in Pakistan which in turn is the cause of almost all ills that plague Pakistan today (and which then cause Pakistan to become a plague upon mankind). Being a quisling is not easy on the soul (or sole). You can neither feel nor think (nor walk) properly as a quisling.
We indians (hindus in the transferred/later meaning of the word) are the only ones who understand their real plight and blight and are trying to help them out of this, in spite of all the misunderstanding, violence and hate that we have to often face at their hands.
Prasad and Viva and other assorted idiots,
I don’t want to abuse the hospitality of this site. Otherwise, having spent most of my life in hostels, I know how to deal with jokers like you. Nothing cures lafangas like you better than a nice whack from a trusty old chappal or a few choicest abuses that question everything from your pedigree to the size of your you-know-what. It may lighten up your miserable existence by abusing anyone/everyone who disagrees with you but try to rise up from the gutter that you inhabit. At the very least, do justice to the Dharmic nonsense that you regularly peddle. Even then, I would have a grudging respect had you said things like these in person. Compared to you, the “quisling” Pathan or the converted Rajput has much more dignity. He may be in the wrong camp but he doesn’t lack honor. Shame on you and the culture that beget you.
Bade Miya and other assorted scholars
1) A website is not meant for hospitality.
2) You write: “Even then, I would have a grudging respect had you said things like these in person.”
The only reason why we can’t say this in person is the violence that muslims let loose (and are religiously motivated and proud about it) against anyone who criticizes islam and rejects its grand(ly) mendacious claims.
3) You wrote: “Compared to you, the “quisling” Pathan or the converted Rajput has much more dignity. He may be in the wrong camp but he doesn’t lack honor.”
What’s the “more dignity” in being a quisling or a convert to an alien imperialist-fascist ideology that grips by misusing the word god (and hence is a blasphemy too)? If he is in the wrong camp then the one who tells him that truth is his real friend – and not the one who flatters him. Does his honor (I don’t really know what you mean by this) come from islamic ideology or from his ancient pre-islamic traditions?
Your language was abusive but you accuse me of it. You didn’t notice that? Your post was actually a prime example of abusive language.
“So nicely whack yourself with your own trusty old chappal” – as repentance. (To use your own language as an example)
Muslims have to be told the truth about real islam in plain language (I never use abusive language – may be harsh, since islam is a harsh-ambitious boastful religion, but never abusive) – with no flatteries. A flatterer is never the true friend.
Viva,
Go and tell your mom to change your diapers and feed you. This site is meant for mature audience and this is my last post to you. I am not going to honor two bit rascals like you with any more replies. People like you don’t deserve a polite reply. Kambal pitai and a solid slap with a chappal across your face or your butt is what you guys deserve.
to Bade Miyan
You think you are mature with the kind of language and closed-minded-ness that you display?
You can’t refute my arguments since reality confirms them.
You are behaving and talking like a typical muslim bully (I don’t know whether you are a muslim or not – makes no difference). That is what Pakistan has become internally also. I read it in Pakistani newspapers.
————
“Go and tell your mom to change your diapers and feed you….
…two bit rascals like you…
People like you don’t deserve a polite reply…
Kambal pitai and a solid slap with a chappal across your face …
your butt”
…that is bade miyan’s cultural, linguistic and intellectual niveau.
——–
BTW,
What’s the “honor” for a person living in Afghanistan (pashtun) or Pakistan (rajput) or Rajasthan in being an obedient servant for a totalitarian, arab-hegemonial ideology created in Makkah and Madinah in the name of an arab god? If the pashtun hates occupationist forces then why does he fight only against the american ones? Why did he himself (or his ancestors) practise aggression and plunder against the hindus? One who really loves freedom does not deprive others of it. One who really hates aggression does not inflict it upon others. So what pashtun honor are you talking about?
Bade Gun is silent after being held a mirror to his own behaviour, language and conceit.
“”"”I can understand fully why his “mom” is taking so much time to change his diapers. I have full sympathy for this sad “mom” who must be now very old and infirm and hardly able to do this “job”. Lord, please spare her this task at this age! “”"”
(I am using a language that he uses and understands. I am forced to do it for this unfortunate reason).
viva
Look at yourself. In your many avatars you have long past the stage of sounding like a very broken record. You have made your point. Now please, please, give it a rest. Don’t spam every board with the same old same old. If you have nothing more to say, please spare us your repetitive rants.
This was a place where people wrote something only when they had something thoughtful to say. This used to be a place for debate, reflection, nuances in an argument. Not for bald, repetitive, rants of a scratched and broken record. For that sort of thing there are too many
places on the net. Why don’t you take your wisdom to some of these fundamentalist sites?
amar, you can save PTH now. This is a big responsibility on your very weak shoulders. Say something when you have something intelligent to say. But please stop spamming the boards whenever you have five minutes on your hand.
no communal
What solutions to Pakistan’s problems and to the problems caused by this blighted dangerous country and nation (based on an ideology exported from Arabia by some berserk arabs and turks and amplified by local quislings and liars) to the rest of mankind has your PTH turned up with?
You want to be a happy-go-lucky discussion club – like Nero fiddling when Rome burnt?
You break my record and then accuse me of playing a broken record.