Pak Tea House » Opinion, Pakistan » The enigma that is Pakistan
The enigma that is Pakistan
By Raza Rumi
Anatol Lievens new book is not just a contemporary account of Pakistan, it also attempts to present an alternative narrative of what is often referred to as the worlds most dangerous country. Lieven worked in Pakistan for several years for The Times and is currently a professor of international relations and terrorism at Kings College, London. His approach, therefore, is a curious mix of hard- core research and journalistic reporting. The two intersect, disagree and at times oppose each other.
After exhaustive research and speaking to scores of Pakistanis, Lieven is quite clear that Pakistan does not deserve the oft-repeated verdict of being a failed state or the prediction that it is going to is integrate. He focuses on Pakistans robust society fissiparous and troubled as it is practising the art of resilience as an article of faith.
This is why the author, like many others, is struck by the inherent strengths of Pakistan, which are an antidote to its failures. Lieven also debunks several myths, especially those related to the scary image of Pakistans military-intelligence complex. This is, perhaps, a point of departure in his narrative that makes his work a little unpalatable for hard-nosed Pakistan bashers. Some, in fact, have criticised him for what they see as veiled admiration for Pakistans armed forces. The truth is that Pakistans defence establishment is
both a colonial legacy and the handiwork of 20th century imperial
projects, chiefly pertaining to Cold War politics and the containment of the former Soviet Union through the 1980s. This military machine is a subject which perhaps requires a more nuanced understanding than it
has received in the past. Lieven admittedly glosses over much that
troubles and is troubling about Pakistans security establishment.
But he does present a kind of counter-narrative that becomes both the
strength and weakness of his otherwise well-researched book.
A Hard Country articulates an insiders version of the countrys most powerful institution but in the process also weaves a questionable argument. The military emerges as a somewhat benevolent entity that
boasts of a meritocratic culture and claims to be holding the country
together. Many would question that. The militarys role in the 1971 civil war in what was then East Pakistan has been well-recorded and there is evidence to suggest that even later it has been far from being benign in its attempts to rule Pakistan.
Perhaps a key contribution that Lieven has made to the study of Pakistan relates to his focus on climate change as a real and present danger to the countrys future. It may be slightly problematic to single out Pakistan as a worst-case example of global warming but the 2010 floods and the utter lack of preparedness to deal with them are significantly worrying symptoms which, if anything, should alert Pakistan and its reluctant allies to this heavily underplayed threat.By no means is the book free of errors. There are glaring factual inaccuracies here and there (for instance, Quetta was a pre-Raj town and not merely a colonial project).
There are shades of naivetØ (Lievens account of Pashtunwali betrays the typical colonial romanticisation), perhaps unwitting due to the authors foreignness; and bouts of optimism (due to over-reliance on anecdotes at instances), especially on nuclear safety, can irk discerning readers.
The book is, however, a breakthrough in terms of trashing the collapsing Pakistan syndrome.Throughout, the tone is neither patronising, nor mocking of a country beset with grave challenges. Lieven emerges as a successful advocate of how and why Pakistan remains surprisingly tough and resilient as a state and a society.
The common refrain of a radicalised country is also missing from the book since Lieven gives an honest account of the varieties of many Islams practised in Pakistan and how the cults of the saints and Sufi orders and Barelvi theology are likely to resist Islamism in the long run. But even in this he fails to review the violent contestation over Islam since 1947 and how such violence has affected the state and society. By reducing the contemporary Islamist problem to American policies, he may be whipping the favourite external conspiracy hobbyhorses.Notwithstanding problems of journalism tinkering scholarship, Lievens book is a hard account to refute or ridicule.
Herald’s Pick of the Month:
When the shrine of Baba Farid Ganj Shakar in Pakpattan was attacked last year, the real significance of the incident was not fully understood. Baba Farid is a leading figure of the Chishti Sufi order that has played a major role in developing Sufi establishments ( khanqahs) as inclusive and multifaith spaces of spirituality and meditation in medieval India.
Tanvir Anjums book is an elaborate treatise on how the Chishti Sufis could create and sustain those spaces, sometimes in the face of opposition and suppression from the state.
It is rare to find Pakistani scholars or writers exploring Sufism, which is central to belief systems and worship practices in Pakistan and is perhaps a socially-embedded bulwark against exclusivist ideologies that have flourished of late due to state patronage. Anjums work, therefore, is a welcome addition to the meagre body of Pakistani writings on Sufism. The book is based on her doctoral dissertation and, therefore, its tone and structure are academic.
This can be a major drawback for non-academic readers but fortunately Anjums style compensates with a direct anduncomplicated narrative.
Anjums central focus is on the relationship between the Chishti Sufis and the Delhi Sultanate.
Given the large number of their followers, Sufi establishments were putative centres of power a fact that the Delhi sultans could not ignore as their own rule was partly dependent on sources of public approval. The cooption or submission of the Sufis was vital for them to sustain their rule. The Chishti Sufis, however, purposely stayed away from the centres of power to retain their
independence and people-oriented ethos. This is not to say that
all Sufi orders have always steered clear of the state. The
Suharwardys, for example, were not averse to accepting favours
from the state. They, in fact, upheld a policy of cordial
engagement with the state.
As Anjums narrative takes us through the evolution of the Chishti order in the subcontinent, we learn about critical moments when the state attempted to encroach on the Sufis interactions with the people and the manner in which they resisted such attempts during the 13th and the 14th centuries to retain the essence of their message. The books first six chapters outline the various strategies employed by Sufi leaders to negotiate challenges to their independence from the sultans. The last two chapters trace the evolution of inherited spirituality (sajjada nasheeni) and make some incisive comments about its relationship with the state. Like, for instance, towards the end of the 14th century and through the later eras, biological descendants of the founders of Sufi establishments were not as resilient as their forefathers and, therefore, were unable to remain indifferent or defiant towards the rulers as much as their ancestors could.
Much of the criticism of Sufi orders today relates to the practices at shrines and the way in which the inheritors of Sufi shrines play politics and are linked to power. Their contemporary conduct is certainly in conflict with the teachings of their great forefathers and hence essentially not Sufism.
Filed under: Opinion, Pakistan · Tags: country, Pakistan, state, Sufi
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Are the comments visible on PTH?
PTH reintroduced commenting? Without unedited reader comment section it is boring to read articles. PTH have to keep comment section.
Example, in rupeenews website Moin Ansari writes article (mostly plagiarism) and he also comments in many different names, that is absurd.
to PTH
Anyone who wants to be read in Pakistan has to flatter the pakistanis. That alone reduces the chances of honesty considerably – or to be precise – in some cases even to zero.
This is exemplified by this last attempt by the PTH to cut off comments.
Facebook is a confused place and space – why you wished to be associated with that one?
The whole of islam (=submission) is based on flattery of the superiors. Be it this so-called god (the arab allah) or Mohammad or some kaliphs or imams or or syeds or pirs or ghazis or pseudomartyrs etc.
Flattery and honesty never go hand in hand. Flattery and fascism go hand in hand. A god who prefers flatterers is not worth being called a god. The whole of islam is just mental slavery and zombie-ness and totalitarianism under some of the above mentioned entitites.
Pakistan is no enigma – don’t flatter yourself with such high-flown super- or supra-intellectual ideas. Pakistan is the zombie’s experiment to establish islam and thus demonstrate its uselessness or destructivity or idiocy in the 21st century.
It’s high time you come to realize that now. The only normal(ized) pakistanis are those who have kicked out this arab ideology from their lives. But unfortunately they are so few and they have to remain hidden.
Jinnah had done that initially – but for some quixotic-megalomaniac-touchy reasons he went back to lick the vomit. How quixotic megalomania and touchiness can pervert even an intelligent man!
Observer,
who is asking you to become Muslim or to visit Pakistan? why are you wasting so much of your time and energy on dissing Pakistan and Muslims? What do you get out of it? what will it achieve? does it fulfil some deep psychological urge within you? are you using this and other sites to take out your anger against some of your Muslim ‘friends and/or colleagues’?
Its amazing how many Indians are so vicisouly anti-pakistani but how few Pakistani are anti-indian!
Makes one wonder about the mental health of those across the border.
PS. Did you know that despite our war on terror and all the other hardships we actually scored higher on the happy index than Indians!
I am glad the COMMENTS pages are back vis-a-vis the PTH. If only the comment-traitors would please not repeatedly invoke bogus identity-kits or pseudonymous also-known-as’s (“a.k.a.”), urrfs or manufactured identities.
By the way now that delirious-dirt about my Harvard degrees has settled down (like foam in proverbial Marcel Duchamp’s cutting-edge The Fountain); I won that bbaba-tell!! why not fakeup a tortious superstorm about my two MA degrees in Human Rights from the University of Illinois 1973. First person on earth to obtain degrees in Human Rights from one of the top universities in the world, now that has become fashionable. So unlike Bhandari I dont need to drive a government given car with a tied-out flag as a deceptive-device to hoodwink reality.
The enigma about Pakistan is no big secret, no BIG deal : Merit has successfully become a dirty word in Pakistan and the quacks remain busy pulling their no-legs-to-stand-upon. The Ess(oops!) tablishment desefves no Sufiism but a Slap in its face. A goodbook that I recommend to Faisal Jhangvi is MATTHEW COLLINS: THE LAW OF DEFAMATION AND THE INTERNET, Third Edition; OUP, [2010]. Cheers (Its C not J).
(There is much more to these new mores!). I am typing this at the Gray’s Inn).
S M J I J 0044 8899808
Ally mian,
does it fulfil some deep psychological urge within you? are you using this and other sites to take out your anger against some of your Muslim ‘friends and/or colleagues’?
I think Hamza bhai on DBB may have some explanation for this……
Regards
to ally
Your questions are not new and they have been answered already. Islam is an expansionist, intrusive, arrogant, dictating, big-brother-type ideology. This we know since 1400 years and you pakistanis are demonstrating this every day. By using words like “psychoogical urge” etc. to denigrate me you are trying to evade the issue. That is the export of emigrants (due to excessive reproduction), terror and fascism from muslim lands and societies. Indians/hindus have had enough of this for 1200 years. Pakistan is situated on hindu land – robbed and snatched by invading muslims and their quislings. Are you trying to pretend that islam has no expansionist ambitions in order to trample upon all those who are still not under its fascism?
Those who steal or retain stolen goods (and their supposedly ignorant or pseudo-innocent descendants) may well have a higher “happiness index” than those who were looted. That is not new at all in the history of mankind. Many a person was robbed and he sat back in pain and helplessness whereas the one who looted him made a “merry” life. In fact you are witness to that even in your islamic paradise of Pakistan. The pak army generals (and their merry wives) have a much higher “happiness index” than the common pakistanis. Are you intelligent enough to realize what folly you have committed in bringing up this so called “happiness index”?
But the law of karma is now catching up to you guys. So open your islamically closed eyes to the real cause of your pains. What do you think will happen after you have taught so much lies to your children in Pakistan? This child molestation will have its pay-back. So worry about the mental health of those in Pakistan.
The last paragraph sums it all.
“Much of the criticism of Sufi orders today relates to the practices at shrines and the way in which the inheritors of Sufi shrines play politics and are linked to power. Their contemporary conduct is certainly in conflict with the teachings of their great forefathers and hence essentially not Sufism.”
Today “Sufi Way of life” is almost absent from Pakistani Culture. What has taken root in its place is the “Shrine Culture.” The evolution of the bogus and un-Islamic concept of “inherited spirituality (sajjada nasheeni)” has hollowed the genuine “Sufi Way of Life.” An inheritor Sajjada Nasheen is nothing more than a pretender, making living off the name of his forefathers and at the same time making fool of superstitious simple folks. He is a spiritual king, unworthy of the post. Visit any Shrine in Pakistan on Thursday night and you will see the culture of sex, drugs and exploitation. The noble and honorable man from Chisht will be horrified.
to PMA
The more arrogant, dishonest and anti-science (=revelation-based) a religion the more it will end up producing such sajda nashins. Islam inculcates in muslims the attitude of “we muslims can do no wrong. We are special”. So among these “specials” there are “special specials”.
Many sufi doctrines contradict the kuran and hence in the tussle the sufis are bound to be eliminated – as has happened in Pakistan. Unfortunately the sufis made propaganda for islam (carelessly ignoring its totalitarian arrogant absolutist-finalist-fascist spirit) and then fell foul of this very islam.
Pakistan is no enigma. We know very well about its fascist origin and intentions, goals and methods. “Pakistan ka matlab k(i)ya, slander and bleed hindus and Ind(i)ya.” No enigma at all. All open. Nothing “batin” about it. It is in every textbook used in pakistani schools to molest litle innocent pakistani children (who are not muslims by choice).
Pakistan is certainly not a failed state when it comes to doing bad things. In that it is most efficient (see how proud pakistanis are of their ISI or islamic “bum” or fortress of islamic arrogance etc.). When it comes to doing good things for mankind, that’s another matter – but who cares, when this so-called allah is on your side.
“it will end up producing such sajda nashins”……………………..”Saj-da” & “Saj-jadah” are two different words. “Sajda” means Prostration; bowing in prayers; adoration to God……..and “Sajjadah” means a Prayer Carpet; a mosque or a religious endowment. “Sajjadah Nasheen” is a spiritual superior attached to a mosque or a religious endowment. “Sajda” and “Sajjadah” are Arabic words; “Nasheen” is a Persian word meaning ‘one who sits down’. It is a derivative of “Nashast” meaning ‘sitting’. In earlier Sufi traditions a “Sajjadah Nasheen” was the most pious follower of the Founder of the Sufi Order. Now a days it is a male biological descendant of the founder of the order or of an earlier Sajjadah Nasheen, often unworthy of the position. The system of the Sufi Orders in its present form and practice is rotten to the core and worth abolishment.
to PMA
Thanks for the info about the sajda etc. I am not an expert in arabic or persian. I appreciate both languages but do not regard them as better than our indian languages. Both languages have become due to islam vehicles of fascism, backwardness and superstition. The rotten-ness in the sufi and other orders (also to be found among hindu orders) is a result of this till-now unnoticed fascism.
If hindus changed over to islam because hindu religions were rotten to the core then time is now for muslims to change over to something better too. But islam threatens, in typical fascist manner, death to ex-muslims. Hindus never dealt out death to ex-hindus. So the conversions to islam were illegitimate, born out of foolishness and carelessness. Which reasonable sobre intelligent human being will voluntarily want to convert to an ideology that kills its ex-members?
observ (August 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm):
Arabic/Persian/Turkish/Urdu – all of them are beautiful languages. Try to learn them. You may come to appreciate them. Turko-Persian poetry, mother of Urdu poetry is so romantic and has been source of many operas and symphonies composed by classical Western musicians. There is a whole wide world of culture outside Hind. Open your heart and mind and let your hatred of other cultures, societies, religions and civilizations leave you. You will be a much happier man. Don’t waste your life away.
PMA,
He is probably not aware of Indian culture as well.
Reading such posts on PTH is both informative and disheartening. Informative for obvious reasons and disheartening because it invokes hate from readers cross the border. I wonder how long we will keep bashing each other and ending in nowhere. i wish our comments contribute our intellect rather than hate.
Note to PMA:
I am a great lover of great western classical music. Perhaps you may like to enlighten me about so called”….Turko-Persian poetry, mother of Urdu poetry is so romantic and has been source of many operas and symphonies composed by classical Western musicians….” Please! I am very very curious.
Wa Salaam
Kamath (August 3, 2011 at 2:11 am)
Happy to answer your inquiry.
Colonialism had brought Westerners in direct contact with the Orient. As a result a new genre of “Orientalism” emerged in Europe. Turkish, Persian and Arabic literature was translated into various European languages. Western composers used Oriental romantic literature to create music. In the field of Art & Literature, Western artists and writers created their own imaginary version of “The Orient”. A good example would be Henry Matisse. This mid-eighteen to mid-twentieth century period is often referred as exotic “Romantic Age” in the West. Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Rossini, Gluck, Weber – all have composed music based on Turco-Persian literature. German composers are well known for their interpretation of Persian poetry. Rumi and Khalil Gibran’s work has been a source of inspiration for Westerners in every field of Arts. But perhaps the most famous is Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov’s symphonic suite Scheherazade (Shaherzad). Different formats of Urdu poetry such as Ghazal, Qatah, Massaddas, Masnavi, Marsiah, Nazam etc. were all first developed in Turkish and Persian poetry. That is why Turco-Persian poetry is regarded as mother of Urdu poetry. Early Urdu poets wrote in Persian and in Turkish as well.
to PMA
I wonder why muslims must accuse someone who criticizes islam of hate or ignorance. That is a very cheap tactic.
I have listened to all kinds of music and read all kinds of literatures (but claim no mastery).
Good achievements by arabs, iranians, turks etc. have nothing to do with islam. In fact they would have achieved greater things had thez not fallen into the trap (fascist prison)of islam. In the islamic world no discussion about this will be allowed. The turks were earlier buddhists shamanists. In those days they committed no genocides. After becoming muslims however they did.
When you accuse me of ignorance then immediately some others pounce in to pronounce the same. Like sheep following the leading alpha-sheep. Why does that happen? Thoughtlessness?
I don’t hate other cultures etc. – I fear islam because of its inherent fascism. And I have said that very often clearly.
BTW: why do muslims lament islamophbia (=fear of islam)?
Actually they shoud be happy that there is islamophobia. Does the kuran not command the muslims to strike terror in the hearts of non-muslims? So they should be proud of having obeyed a kuranic command in toto. Islamophobia is the rational consequence. Not to be an islamophobe (= one who fears islam) would be irrational.
observer (August 3, 2011 at 10:04 pm):
Your problem is that you wish to expel Islam from Hind but do not posses means to do so. As a result you are frustrated and angered and being a cowered that you are, you get your frustrations out by posting anonymously your hateful message here at PTH, day in and day out. And when people ignore you, you get even more frustrated. You are an embarrassment to your own people. PTH leaves your posts here to show everybody what kind of fool you are. But if you are really a man, stop hiding behind the internet, drop your mask and tell us who you are. What is your real name and where do you live. Let people see your real face. And then see if you could live with yourself with the shame you have brought to yourself and to your people.
observer
u r such an idiot
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/phobias.html
A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder. It is a strong, irrational fear of something that poses little or no actual danger. There are many specific phobias…….
PMA,
He is showing signs of improvement. He hasn’t used the word “quisling” in his last post.
Observer,
What PMA is saying can be roughly translated as follows:
“Agar apni maa ka doodh piya hai to samne aaa, kamine..”
To the “saamne aa kamine” brigade
We know how islam contains elements that are trigger-happy. They are a result of islamic upbringing, history-writing, doctrines, ideas about death and heaven etc. We saw that as this young man was shot and left to bleed to death by pak rangers. We saw that as Salman Taseer was assassinated by his own body guard and the killer later declared to be a hero. In the islamic world criticism of islam is not protected but actively destroyed with the most ruthless means.
If the brigade changes this situation then …
But look at the damage this is causing to the muslims themselves.
If you regard something/someone from the seventh century as uncriticisable, final and perfect then you are imposing a 7th century fascism upon the 21st century. This is an analytic truth which cannot escape by bringing in some god-centred mumbo-jumbo.
So the brigade should take an ernest look at that before bothering about me and my name, place etc. Ridiculing or humiliating me collectively will not help you get out of the misery that islam has put you (and all of us) in. Not that you will succeed in humiliating me … but the real problem is not me. You are similar to those typical tyrants who punish the person who brings a discomforting message or information.
As regards phobia about islam – it is a mental disorder not to be afraid of islam and its fascism.
The kuran wants that muslims should increase islamophobia. “strike terror in their hearts ” says the kuran. Pakistan should “do more” in this respect so as to qualify as the citadel of islam and gain the longed-for higher status in the eyes of the arabs and turks. The muslims should lament that the level of islamophobia is still too low. This means that they are not obeying the kuranic command fully and are still like munafiks.
I must repeat:
“I wonder why muslims must accuse someone who criticizes islam of hate or ignorance. That is a very cheap tactic.”
If you can’t refute a criticism then you accuse the critic of ignorance or hate. What logic!
BTW
There is islamophobia not only among non-muslims, but also among muslims. And both these islamophobias are fully rational, justified and caused by the workings of islam itself.
Islam is based on fear – hence islamophobia is the natural concomitant.
A muslim does not leave islam out of fear – he knows how islam treated and intends to treat ex-muslims. So the fear of islam is far more among muslims than among non-muslims.
But the analytic abilities of the muslims are stunted or cut down by islam. So they accuse some non-muslims of islamophobia but ignore or forget the far greater islamophobia among muslims. Dishonesty has become the normal habit among muslims. Even modernly educated muslims show this deficiency, opportunism or carelessness in thinking.
Ridiculing/vilifying me will not solve your problems but worsen them.
Start with kalma – that’s where the problem starts…
If prophet Muhammad’s were to return today for some reason, Muslims would kill him.
to milestogo
Do you mean kalima or Kali Ma?
Why would muslims kill Mohammad? He will “lead” or instigate them, as he did earlier, into battles against non-muslims to get more women and land and terrorize non-muslims and thus fulfill the kuranic commands. Mohammad would love the islamofascist mullahs of today (in Pakistan, Iran, Saudia etc. etc.).
There was Calima in the movie Planet of the Apes which stood for
CAution LIve AniMAl.
kalma = shahda = “There is no God but Allah” This is the start of intolerence. It should be replaced with “People call God with different names, Allah is one of them”.
to milestogo
You are asking for the impossible. Monotheistic totalitarianism has caused arrogant violence and imperialism and it loves violence and terrorization of those who hold different beliefs etc. Asking for tolerance – I mean genuine tolerance and not some pretension of tolerance or a tactically motivated show of tolerance – from the muslims is absurd.
—
It is like the muslim victimhood complex. They ask in India : Are we “indian” muslims to prove our patriotism to India?
But the more fundamental question is whether islam is compatible with indianness. Indianness includes polytheism, idol-worship, atheism, agnosticism, self-respect (and no quislingism to arabs or turks) and so on. How can islam be compatible with that? So a muslim in India can only pretend patriotism or make a show of patriotism for tactical reasons. And unfortunately there are some idiotized or opportunistic hindus who go with that deceit by the muslims.
Milestogo (August 4, 2011 at 9:31 pm)
hiob (August 4, 2011 at 9:48 pm)
Sachbol (August 5, 2011 at 2:46 am)
There is no such deity named “Allah”. In Arabic word for ‘god’ is “alah”. The word “alah” was in use in Arabia long before there was religion Islam and Prophet Mohammad. The Jews, Christians and Pagans in pre-Islamic Arabia all used the word “alah” when referring to whoever they thought was their god. Prophet Mohammad’s father died before his birth. His name was Abdalah. “Abd” in Arabic means servant and Abdalah (Abd-alah) means ‘servant of god’. So we know that word “alah” is a pre-Islamic word.
Also in Arabic word “al” means ‘the’. Prophet Mohammad proclaimed that there was only one god, the almighty, the creator of the universe and everything within it. It has no physical body. It was not born by anyone nor it gives birth to anyone. The god of Abraham and the Jews, the god non-Arabic Hindus in their languages call Eshwar or Bhagwan. Mohammad also said that there was no other god but Him – the god, Al-alah commonly spelled as Allah.
“There is no god but the God.” It is a ‘statement’ or “Kalemah” in Arabic; a declaration of witness or “Shahadat” in Arabic.
Gentlemen there is no compulsion in religion. Believe in what you wish to believe in. If you believe in Him then call Him Allah, Khuda, Eshwar, Bhagwan – whatever you wish to call Him. And if you do not believe in God then move on. Don’t sow the seeds of hatred between people. Muslims of India are as much Indian as anybody else. Don’t ask them to “prove” their Indian-ness. For Gods sake stop this nonsense.
Ok then say with me-
“There is no Allah but god”
It should mean the same right?
PMA Janab,
Thanks, but the nature of Godhood described by Prophet Muhammad is not compatiable with the Indic experience of Divinity.Any God which relish cruelty and inflict pain for non believing is rejected. There are many Muslims who are Indians/ Indic in nature but no Musalman can be Indian as his religion demands extra territorial political and social loyalty. Would you deny the fact that no islamic practice have root in civilizational India? Every thing about islam is alien to our land. Muslims are guaranteed rights by the Indian Constitutions and many Muslamnas inhabiting India contribute great toward Indian progress and add strength to the country but expcetions can not be norms. India is holy to us and for Muslaman its just a land to occupy and anihilate its culture and civilization. Pakistan/ Musalmans will destroy itself willingly to serve islam while Indians will rather destroy everything which threaten physical spiritual, civilizational India. We are two different nations and 2 different entities,then how can Musalman be an Indian? Indians are the one whose heart and soul reside in India. Beside indians, only Chinese are in same league to make similar claim legitimately.
When muslims have power then they are not tolerant. PMA’s tolerance is just a pretension. He has no power to destroy hindus and hindu ways of faith so he talks as if he can be tolerant. The sufis tried it too but were killed by their own muslim “brothers” (for example Dara Shukoh killed by Aurangzeb).
The main muslim intention and concern is: How can we muslims retain whatever we or our ancestors have snatched and robbed or captured through lies, bribery and intimidations. So the muslim tries to pretend something like “you have yours and I have mine. Let’s move on”. What tricksters!
Milestogo (August 5, 2011 at 9:20 pm)
No it is not the same thing. If you wish to get tangled up in the word “Allah”, then there is no way out for you from your self created confusion. The Islamic Declaration is: “There is no god but the God & Mohammad is Messenger of God”. Those who believe in that are Muslims and those who do not believe in that are non-Muslims. If you do not believe in that declaration then move on. Why are you torturing yourself. As Islam says, “There is no compulsion in religion.” To each his own.
Sachbol (August 5, 2011 at 11:36 pm):
If you think that nature of god described by Islam & Hinduism, respectively, is not the same, then be it. I do not wish to convince you otherwise. Also your definition of Hinduism is narrow and territorial whereas Islam is a universal religion that goes beyond geographical and racial boundaries. For a Muslim “Cheen-o-Arab Hamara; Hindustan Hamara; Muslim Hain Hum-Watan Hain; Sara Jahan Hamara.” Islam has very deep roots in Hind and it is here to stay. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about it, except get frustrated. So accept the reality and get some peace in your life. Get over it.
observer (August 6, 2011 at 12:00 am):
I am a man of peace and have no desire to destroy anyone or any religion. In fact I have never said anything negative about any religion. Religion is not my thing. I am a Pakistani and wish a peaceful coexistence between Hindustan and Pakistan. On the contrary you are the one who makes fool of himself day in and day out by spewing hatred towards Muslims & Islam. You have personal problems that unfortunately I can not cure. Seems like no one can except God.
PMA
Thanks for clarification. It was nice talking to you.
PMA,
Why then native Ramu has to take alien name Rahim. Ram had the meaning of that leads to Peace in heart. Why this Ram has to give up his language and adopt alien Arabic as his language. Why he has to dissociate with his ancesters and their achievements such as Nalanda & Taxila, his heroes such as Rana Pratap, Chatrapati Shivaji & Guru Govind Singh Ji.
Abrahamic religions be it Christianity (which is Roman’s imperialistic project), Islam, Marxism, extreme Capitalism and Secularism are nothing but Armed-Legions. They cannot be compared to native spirituality of Native Indians be they from of America or India.
Indian spirituality (Dharma/Dhamma) went to far off places without state sponsorship. Andhrite Bodhi Dharma spread Dhamma without sworde to China. Pandavas mother came from todays far east and Kourava’s from Afghanistan.
to PMA
It is not about you as person.
Islam’s long term intentions are and will be to reduce non-muslims to crying-begging minorities.
Whether you personally want it to be so or not is not the question here.
Chikna (August 6, 2011 at 5:39 am):
Sir, you and many other Hindu Nationalists posting here at PTH have beef (forgive the pun) with Islam. You wish to expel Islam from Hind, at least the cultural side of it. Why Hindu Ramu upon conversion to Islam changes his name to Rahim? Why are you asking me. Ask Ramu. May be he does not want to be associated any longer with anything of the religion he has left behind. May be he considers the message of Islam or Christianity superior to Hinduism. May be he wants new identity. Why lower caste Hindus convert to other religions. Why Ramu becomes Raymond? Why Cassius Clay becomes Mohammad Ali. These are the questions Hindu Nationalists have to ask of themselves. A little introspect will help. Good luck.
observer (August 6, 2011 at 12:32 pm):
I know what ails you. But sorry I have no cure for you.
PMA,
I will go by my own example. Ramdhan after Sept. 11 was very traumatic for number of Muslim families here in USA.
My son was asked to do a write up (6th grade) on Islam. He called local Muslim Association head, a Pakistani married to a Hyderabadi Muslim lady. On phoen he answered his questions. This was before Sept. 11.
After Sept 11 I inquired about their well being on phone and I felt the old couple was scared to even go out. I decided to give them soalce & good company early in the morning at 5AM for their first Namaz. I used to drove 30 miles one way for this after my regular running, Yoga and Meditation & bath. I had to wake them up on most days during the 10 days I did Namaz with them. I did everything they did – topi, chaddar , reciting the Kalma and verses from Koran etc.
I also asked in those 10 days to my employee to bring their grocery, which he did every day. On the 10th day, the gentleman asked what is the caste of my employee. I was shocked. I asked why he was inquiring. He answered because he looked very dark. I said in my mind that he might have dark skin but I am not sure if your heart is clean.
Later the lady of the home asked me to choose an Arabic name. I asked why? She and her husband answered that because you have said the Kalma for so many times. How does it matter, as I know all of us are pure Manav or what you call Muslim just another Arabic word for the same thing. They started insisting saying that it for my own good and for saving me on the day of judgement. I could not control and became furious. I had to tell them that the reason I came to you every day at 5 AM taking lot of trouble and spending money to give you a solace. I was not Muslim before and when I started doing this. It is my culture and faith which you call, Hindu made me a good person. Same with my employee. I do not need to convert to some organized religion created by aliens mostly for enslaving the natives and rule over them. I had to tell them that what matters in case of my employee, not his skin color, his accent, his caste, his Hindu name but the fact that he cleared JEE with rank of 179 to get IIT Mumbai Comp Sc. This so called devout Muslim raised their daughters who were going to to some Micky Mosse Universities in US.
Yes to Spirituality
But Big NOOOO to Armed Abrahamic legions (Islam, Christianity which has nothing to do with Yogi Yeshu wo spent 18 years in India leaning Yoga & Dhyan and finally is resting near SriNagar, Marxicism and Extrreme Capitalism) whome we call religions. Abrahamic religions cannot be compared to Dharma/Dhamma. Too long this chicanery and devilishness is tolerated by the natives of the world.
Romans coopted Jesus (yeshu) teachings in 4th century,
Mohammed of Arabia perfected this chicanery, colonolist
Macaulay and Marx derived their devilishness from the same Abrahmaic ideology.
One of the things which brings people together and raise their consciousness is
http://artoflivinglifestories.blogspot.com/2010/11/patti-montella-art-of-living-experience.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lNDnbD6WmQ&feature=player_embedded
PMA is a victim of pakistan ideology, but curable. Expelling islam from Hind is not what we hindus have to do. It is you muslims who have to do it. For your own good, your own honesty and self-respect. That is all that I have ben insisting on. The muslim is the first victim of islam and its lies and fascism. But instead of taking steps to rid himslf of it he acts according to the maxim “if we can’t beat them join them”. Someone robs you and instead of co-operating with the society to get rid of these robbers the robbed person tries to flatter the robbers and even wishes to join them and share intheir loot. That is the basic muslim mentality.