Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » Lawyering the law : A rebuttal
Lawyering the law : A rebuttal
By Yasser Latif Hamdani
It seems that some people are more interested in their own agendas and axes to grind than any real discussion on history or facts. The context of this ninth pillar of wisdom is an article by by Urooj Zia in Pakistan Today.
Let us start with the basics. Every accused deserves a fair trial. When President Abraham Lincoln was shot dead, one of the conspirators, Mary Surat, was represented in the famous Lincoln Conspirators Trial by Frederick Aiken, who had served with distinction as a colonel for the Union Army and was considered close to Abraham Lincoln. This is the essence of a fair legal system and responsibility of a lawyer. For more on the Lincoln Conspirators’ Trial read: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/lincolnconspiracy/lincolnconspiracy.html.
The family of the late Shaheed Salmaan Taseer (who ironically is often abused by the journalist in question and whose posthumous sitara e imtiaz on 14 August 2011 was criticised by her repeatedly) has not asked that Qadri be shot dead without a trial. They have asked for a fair trial. A fair trial- a constitutional right under Article 10-A- requires equality of arms in a court of law. However issue changes shape dramatically when a bunch of illiterate uneducated lawyers garland a self confessed killer like Mumtaz Qadri who murdered a sitting governor of a province of Pakistan. Mumtaz Qadri himself is a victim in the sordid drama where an illiterate fanatic, fuelled by sermons of the local Mullah, decided to kill a man whose contributions to Pakistan and whose family’s contributions to Muslims of India are documented.
Now our “journalist” from the said rag has spun a story that interestingly most right wing Islamo-fascists insist on and which is a historical fallacy: That lawyers garlanding Qadri were doing so because of the example set by the father of the nation. She also claimed – again completely inaccurately- that Jinnah’s career was “littered” by such cases. The second bit is an absolute lie. The only other such high profile case was where Jinnah defended Tilak for sedition. This is reported on AIR 1916 Bom 9.
To set the record straight I am going to reproduce a few excerpts from my Daily Times article “IlamDin Fiasco”.
To start with, the story is entirely wrong. First of all, Jinnah was not the trial lawyer. Second, Ilam Din had entered the not guilty plea through his trial lawyer who was a lawyer from Lahore named Farrukh Hussain. The trial court ruled against Ilam Din. The trial lawyer appealed in the Lahore High Court and got Jinnah to appear as the lawyer in appeal. So there is no way Jinnah could have influenced Ilam Din to change his plea when the plea was already entered at the trial court level. Nor was Ilam Din exactly the ‘matchless warrior’ that Iqbal declared him to be — while simultaneously refusing to lead his funeral prayers. Indeed Ilam Din later filed a mercy petition to the King Emperor asking for a pardon.
The relevant case — in which Jinnah appeared — cited as Ilam Din vs. Emperor AIR 1930 Lahore 157 — makes interesting reading. It was a division bench judgement with Justice Broadway and Justice Johnstone presiding. Jinnah’s contention was that the evidence produced before the trial court was insufficient and the prosecution story was dubious. To quote the judgement, “He urged that Kidar Nath was not a reliable witness because (1) he was an employee of the deceased and, therefore, interested. (2) He had not stated in the First Information Report (a) that Bhagat Ram (the other witness) was with him, and (b) that the appellant had stated that he had avenged the Prophet. As to Bhagat Ram it was contended he, as an employee, was interested, and as to the rest that there were variations in some of the details.”
The court rejected this contention. The judgement continues that “Mr Jinnah finally contended that the sentence of death was not called for and urged as extenuating circumstances, that the appellant is only 19 or 20 years of age and that his act was prompted by feelings of veneration for the founder of his religion and anger at one who had scurrilously attacked him.” The court rejected this contention as well referring to Amir vs. Emperor, which was the same court’s decision a few years earlier. Interestingly, the curious reference to 19 or 20 years deserves some attention. Why did Jinnah as one of the leading lawyers refer specifically to an argument that had been exploded by the same court only two years earlier? That only Mr Jinnah can answer and I do not wish to speculate. Perhaps he was trying to argue what Clarence Darrow had argued successfully a few years ago in the famous Leopold and Loeb case involving two 19-year old college students who had committed the ‘perfect crime’. Clarence Darrow’s defence converted a death sentence to a life sentence.
The two cases are entirely distinguishable:
1. Unlike Qadri, Ilam Din did not confess. Instead – contrary to the myth- he repeatedly denied that he killed Raj Pal. Qadri has confessed.
2. Jinnah’s argument to begin with was to question the veracity of the testimony of the witnesses, as per his client’s claim that he was not guilty.
3. Once that was defeated, Jinnah argued to get his client off death row instead of life imprisonment citing that the accused was merely a boy who had been misled.
How is this the same as the shamelessness that was on display at the Islamabad Bar? Even the defence team’s argument is misconceived. The argument for Qadri’s defence team is not that Qadri didn’t do it or that Qadri was misled. The argument that is put forth by Qadri’s legal team is that it was okay to kill Salmaan Taseer because he committed blasphemy. Even under the present legal system – tainted by Islamisation- this is untenable.
1. Salmaan Taseer did not commit any blasphemy by questioning an unjust law.
2. Even if he had, given that there is a law that is all hyped up, he should have been tried under that law.
The Taseer family – from what I can gather having met some of them- understands that the essential difference between them and the Qadris of the world is that Taseers believe in rule of law and state’s writ. It was this spirit that made a man like Aiken defend the conspirator in the conspiracy to kill a man who he respected more than anyone else. Unfortunately much like Qadris our barely educated journalists- especially those without any real integrity or ability to argue without resorting to ad hominem attacks or strawman fallacies, are ill-equipped to understand the nuances of what it means to be a lawyer or the cab-rank rule.
The reason why liberals, historians and researchers continue to hold fast to Jinnah is because he is the only real basis for any claim to secularism and an inclusive democracy in Pakistan. I hinted to this in my article:
We can only conjecture as to what Jinnah’s reasons as a lawyer and politician to agree to be the lawyer for the appellant before the high court were. In any event, a lawyer’s duty is to accord an accused the best possible defence. Just because a lawyer agrees to defend an accused does not mean that the lawyer concurs with the crime. One is reminded of the famous Boston Massacre in 1770 when British soldiers opened fire and killed five civilians who were protesting against them. The British soldiers hired John Adams as a lawyer, who got five of the accused acquitted, arguing that a sentry’s post is his castle. Does that mean that John Adams was in favour of British rule in the US? If so, it is rather ironic that he was the prime mover and the guiding spirit behind the American declaration of independence. Similarly, when Clarence Darrow defended Leopold and Loeb, was he in any way suggesting that the crime that those two young men had committed was justified?
Jinnah’s record as a legislator tells us a different story altogether. He was an indefatigable defender of civil liberties. He stood for Bhagat Singh’s freedom and condemned the British government in the harshest language when no one else would. In the debate on 295-A of the Indian Penal Code, a much more sane and reasonable law than our 295-B and 295-C, Jinnah had sounded a warning against the misuse of such laws in curbing academic freedoms and bona fide criticisms. I have quoted that statement in my previous two articles.
There cannot be any question that Jinnah the legislator would have balked at the idea that his defence of a murder convict is now being used by some people to justify a law that is ten times more oppressive and draconian than the one he had cautioned against. To this day, I have only found him alone to have had the courage to state in the Assembly on September 11, 1929: “If my constituency is so backward as to disapprove of a measure like this then I say, the clearest duty on my part would be to say to my constituency, ‘you had better ask somebody else to represent you’.”
Finally as to her claim about Balochistan, clearly fact checking is not her forte. She makes up facts when she writes: “Jinnah’s behaviour was legally equivocal while dealing with the Khan of Kalat. The latter had sought help from him after elections in Balochistan resulted in an overwhelming victory for democratic candidates and an effective routing of the sardars. ”
1. There were no elections held in Balochistan or Kalat (not that the writer in question knows the difference). Kalat State did have a legislative assembly which had been put in place through constitutional reforms. The help Khan of Kalat had sought from Jinnah was as a constitutional advisor in 1940 and the advice Jinnah gave him then was what was to become the cornerstone of Baloch Nationalism – that Kalat constitutionally was not on the same plane as the rest of princely India.
2. Lasbela and two other princely states subservient to Kalat acceded to Pakistan by their own accord before Kalat’s accession.
3. Jinnah and Khan of Kalat signed a document of accession which gave Pakistan defence and foreign affairs as subjects. Was some coercion used? Yes. Just as coercion all over India was used to bring Princely States in line- and certainly much less coercion than what Sardar Patel had undertaken.
Urooj Zia’s article frankly should be an embarrassment for Baloch Nationalists. Their case for autonomy and independence is based on Jinnah’s argument in the early 40s that Kalat did not accept British sovereign’s suzerainty and also on the document of accession which provided for complete autonomy for Kalat (not British Balochistan) and which autonomy was respected till 1955-56 when the unfortunate One Unit decision was taken. Therefore by inventing a lie about “elections” and “sardars” being defeated in general elections – presumably 1946 elections – Ms. Zia is arguing that Kalat was not only on the same plane as princely India but was infact part of the British India and therefore subject to the June 3rd Plan. Therefore this sad little argument on part of an overzealous and yet utterly ill-informed journalist has within it the germs of burying legitimate Baloch Nationalist aspirations.
Filed under: Uncategorized · Tags: Baloch nationalism, Ilamdin, Jinnah, Liberals, Pakistan Today, Qadri, Taseer, Urooj Zia
72 Responses to "Lawyering the law : A rebuttal"
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Our illiterate types believe that if they drop the name Balochistan everyone of their lies will be accepted without question.
Yasser Pai,
…..Mumtaz Qadri himself is a victim in the sordid drama where an illiterate fanatic, fuelled by sermons of the local Mullah, decided to kill a man whose contributions to Pakistan and whose family’s contributions to Muslims of India are documented…..
I am not sure this part is correct. IIRC, Mumtaz Qadri was a well educated person unlike Ghazi Ilumdin Shaheed who was genuinely an unlettered person. He shud be given a just punishment w/o illiteracy being cited as an extenuating factor unlike in the other case (as was made out by MAJ)
Regards
Lawyer or not – what role does honesty play?
Why did your lawyer-hero-man not plead for doing away with the death penalty altogether?
If he was so crucial then why did his arab god let him be killed by TB bacteria? Was this god powerless against TB bacteria? Or did the arab god not understand the importance of giving a good example by getting rid of the death penalty (be it through TB bacteria)?
A nasty religion is a nasty religion. The nastiness of a religion is far worse than the nastiness of a non-religious defective ideology.
Let self-deceit go on. Pakistan ka matlab kya – self-deceit karo-kiya.
Our bad karma has caused us (= all of us in the indian subcontinent) to be born in times where a state called Pakistan exists. May be in the next life we will have it better – when there will be no ….
Yes Majumdar sb
.
Unfortunately a lot of people missed out on the subtext here.
This journalist in question wanted to discuss Taseer Murder. When I told her that my expertise was banking, commercial and incidental constitutional matters, she got all upset.
Undeniably, Jinnah’s was a remarkable career, especially early on in his life (before it all went horribly down the wrong path). Tilak’s faith in Jinnah being the right lawyer for his defense in his second trial (after his being his own lawyer in his first trial, which ended up with a jail sentence) is a testimonial to that.
to BJ Kumar
Jinnah was OK (but not remarkable!) so long he did not jump on to the foolish Iqbal-Pakistan-ML and “islam-will-and-must-grandshow-it-to-all” bandwagon and got infected with megalomania, hatred towards hindus and arab-religious zeal.
The very fact that he got this pakistan-ideology infection shows that his intellectual abilities or resistance-powers and decency were weak or underdeveloped.
The word “remarkable” has to be used very cautiously, especially since even his worshippers suffer from megalomania.
I am glad BJ we have some reasonable middle ground at long last. Believe it or not I think Gandhi was- despite all flaws- a remarkably humane individual and his assassination was one of the greatest tragedies to hit India and Pakistan.
@hiob
Our bad karma has caused us (= all of us in the indian subcontinent) to be born in times where a state called Pakistan exists. May be in the next life we will have it better – when there will be no ….
…when there will be no indian subcontinent ?
hiob,
I am an Indian and a religious Hindu. I have many God fearing,decent indian-muslims as my friends. Stop being a bigot. You are giving indian-muslims and hindus a bad name!
Hello IndianDude,
I know most Indian Muslims are decent, but why do you think they are decent? What is the difference in your viewpoint between Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims?
[...] Lawyering the law : A rebuttal [...]
Man you destroyed her!
Raj,
Lets be clear , there is no such thing as Indian Muslim. Muslim is Muslim , party of Ummah and not tied down to the land of Kuffar.
Musalmans living in India are influenced by the local Kuffar moral, intellectual and social values. They imbibe few Indic values practiced by the sons of soil which impart distinctiveness to them.Their lust for paradise is less intense comparing to others and one day they might learn to disregard such carnal rewards in favour of real spiritual bliss springing from the spiritual knowledge accunmulated by the Sacred Soil of Indics. Pakistani,OTOH, are pure Muslims living in pure islamic enviorenment hence act only per Quran and Sunnah. Sad part is majority Muslamans living in india are denied the sactitity and sanctuary of Pakistani Islamiat of which they are rightful partner and inheritor. Both indians and Pakistanis are guilty of this unfortunate negligence and abdication of duty.
Sachbol ji,
exactly, there is a lot more Islamic purity in Pakistan among the Pakistani Muslims, a lot more Islam.
So the IndianDude should try to understand why there is ‘decency’ among the Indian Muslims, before going about accusing others of bigotry.
Sachbol
A Hindu in USA is a Hindu – in the land of untouchable paleed people worse than shudras. Che Che.
Raj ji
Clean Hindus need milk to wash away the filth of non-Hindus and guard the purity of their Aryaniat. Om Shanti Om.
hiob
Hanuman the monkey ki jai. Long live the Monkey! All glory belongs to the worshipers of Hanuman! Muslas are so stupid as to not understand this basic scientific fact!
prithvi,
For Indians Arya means noble, of high ideals. It means nothing more than that. The rest is all European bakwas.
Hindus don’t see non-Hindus as filth. That is you projecting your thinking on to Hindus. Hindus however have deep roots in the Indian Subcontinent, and consider the land sacred. Those who however do not respect the millenia-old tradition and destroy temples and defile our culture, would surely see our ire.
Mr. Hiob, there is no doubt about Jinnah’s credentials as probably one of the best lawyers of his time. The practice of law is a vocational skill and simply put, he was extremely good at it.
One of the mistakes we often make is to look at the personalities of historical figures and try to evaluate them using our current templates and standards – forgetting that those folks lived in a different setup. The leaders who were fighting for independence (including those who went to Pakistan) were in reality all Indian at the time. They looked at the whole of the subcontinent as their homeland (unlike today’s generation). These folks were often team members and colleagues on a variety of political efforts and they often had excellent person-to-person relationships. That is why Jinnah was such a good friend of Motilal Nehru and they were able to hammer out certain agreements. If those leaders had stayed alive for a longer time, it is entirely possible that many of the current bilateral problems would not have developed and certainly not deteriorated to the point they seem to have done so.
The other mistake we often make is to look at one or two aspects of a person and start grading them, sometimes putting them on a pedestal, based on just those one or two aspects – ignoring the fact that they are also human and they may have other attributes about which we ought to keep an open mind. Jinnah was very much a man of his times and times themselves were very different then. Certain practices and certain what were considered ground rules back then are no more fashionable – some are not even acceptable. There is more egalitarianism – especially among the educated. The societal fault lines based on caste, sects, religion, etc. are still here like they were present at the turn of the twentieth century – but the lines have softened a lot – no doubt partly because of the experiences accumulated over the century (more so in India than in Pakistan, because of a variety of reasons). Even the rest of the world was very different then – racism was very much a part of life. It was institutionalized and was considered very acceptable by many white countries – so if white was so readily considered fundamentally different from brown, then it would be all the more easier for somebody to consider Christian as fundamentally different from non-Christian or a Hindu fundamentally different from a Muslim (for example). It does not justify that line of thinking but tends to explain it up to a point. Sadly, the man who so consistently warned everybody about the potential tyranny resulting from a “permanent majority” became instrumental to the creation of one of his own. Being the exceptionally sharp man he was, this irony would probably not have escaped him – and my own feeling is that the man would not have been a happy man at the developments around him which, for all I know, he may even have foreseen.
“Sadly, the man who so consistently warned everybody about the potential tyranny resulting from a “permanent majority” became instrumental to the creation of one of his own. Being the exceptionally sharp man he was, this irony would probably not have escaped him – and my own feeling is that the man would not have been a happy man at the developments around him which, for all I know, he may even have foresee
n.”
Hence his attempt to steer his creation away from it. And hence my humble efforts to make that point for him and for the country I was born in.
YLH,
make a new country!
to swaminath
How can quislings of arab imperialism understand the greatness of a mere monkey like Hanuman? Even this monkey did not do the mistake of worshipping an arab god or wait for an arab god to salvage him.
—
to BJ Kumar
If this relativization of one Mohammad can be imputed to the other big Mohammad (and Mohammadan) names?
The problem is that these mussulmans are always worshipping some/many Mohammads and calling others polytheists.
In fact even this arab god has to be relativized as just a product of the 7th century tribal arabic society. And this so-called holy-final revelation book has to be relativized too.
So go on. I will support you fully in this.
to BJ
If Jinnah, Gandhi, Nehru etc. were friends unto one another – so be it. That none of them recognized the evil and danger inherent in the alien arab religion (already 1300 years old then and full of evil results) is what makes us into rejecters of their supposed greatness.
If I can’t recognize the fascism of my times then why would my descendants not call me a fool? That is where Jinnah etc. failed. If he was a brilliant lawyer then he should have remained a lawyer. If they invited him to take over the ML, he should have turned down the offer.
There are no excuses.
Hindu religions are deficient and defective, no doubt about that – but they are our indigenous products and they are reformable and ready to be reformed. Not so this alien religion from Arabia. It is not only deficient and defective and outdated but arrogantly non-reformable and finalist (hence totalitarian and fascistic). Islam has caused muslims to be habitual liars and self-deceivers for the supposed glory of islam.
I had been revolted when I had heard YLH refer to Mahatma Gandhi as an old fart, and similar uncouth language. Today I hear him praising Gandhi. DER AAYE, DURUST AAYE.
The greatness of Gandhi can be estimated by this episode-
The man replies, “I killed a Moslem child.”
Gandhi winces, then says quietly,”Why?”
The man replies, “They killed my wife and my son.”
After a moment of silence, Gandhi says quietly, “I know a way out of Hell.”
The Hindu man looks shocked. It is clear that he never considered redemption for himself.
Gandhi says, “Go find a child without parents and raise him as your own. But, first make sure that he is a Moslem child and raise him as a Moslem”"
———-
You are an educated man, YLH, for too long you have abused Indians. Try and learn something from us. The peace and ahimsa that is the backbone of hindu-sikh society, would go a long way to treat Pakistan of its current malady.
Best wishes, from Hayes, UK
My comments were in response to Indian badgering. Otherwise I have nothing against Gandhi.
YLH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY. My friend and I have written a few articles and would love to have them published in PTH or elsewhere. Can you help?
There is a purpose why my friend and I, both with extremely busy lives, have taken time out to write these articles and have read them out at various mosques and Pakistani forums in UK. We are not interested in point scoring, but equally we are not going to say light weight sentimental stuff about ‘oh, we are the same people only politicians divide us’ etc
Are you and Pakistan ready for ‘kuch alag hatke dialogue’ with 21st century highly educated professionals from India? You have my email, please contact us. We are willing to travel to Pakistan with a Pakistani doctor friend to be interviewed, or be shot haha, by radio or TV. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Best wishes from UK
To BJ and YLH
The more you praise Jinnah for his brilliance and his remarkable lawyer abilities the more the reason to be angry at him for what he did.
A fool (of a muslim) jumps on to the iqbal-pak bandwagon – we can understand that somewhat. We also (can) console ourselves with the hope that he being a fool he can’t do much damage.
But when a man touted to be the supreme example of polit-juridical intelligence and outwit (that is what pakistanis are told/taught about him) jumps on to the iqbal-pak bandwagon, then it is unjustifiable and far more so damaging.
This is the paradox which Jinnah praisers fail to realize.
Bringing hindu ideas into politics (as done by Gandhi) cannot be avenged by bringing in islam – especially when we are being told day in and day out that islam is radicaly different (=superior!!! =arrogant and conceited, and finalist = de facto fascistic).
This is not indian badgering but the bitter reality of our past. Islamofascists know all too well that they can use Jinnah too, in fact more effectively than the liberals.
Whatever I know I about Jinnah I have from ylh. Why would I otherwise bother about him? YLH is a brilliant man – but let him become a leader in today’s Pakistan on his own. I wish that for him and for us all, if he can make it to that independence. Get rid of the old bygone Mohammads.
“lawyers garlanding Qadri”
.
Some time ago there was an incident. Some lawyers beat-up Lawyer Naeem Bukhari (the famous husband of famous singer Tahira Syed) in a bar (no, not the drinking establishment). When pointed to a well established lawyer friend the vigilante behavior of the “educated” lawyers, the response was: “Bukhari deserved it.” Now, that is not an isolated incident. Lawyers have beaten up fellow lawyers with shoes and colored faces of other lawyers with black paint in public. The shameful beating of policemen and hoodlums like behavior of lawyers in public was recorded on TV. Such institutional shameful behavior towards fellow professionals is not observed in any other profession. Why a lawyer, an officer of the court sworn to uphold the law of the land would garland a murderer. What is wrong with the lawyers.
@Balwinder Sandhu
The greatness of Gandhi can be estimated by….The peace and ahimsa that is the backbone of hindu-sikh society, would go a long way to treat Pakistan of its current malady.
Gandhi played a significant role in the freedom of the Subcontinent. No doubt about that. He also had a similar role to play in alienating the average Indian Muslim from the Congress. So, nobody has any doubts about his greatness. What counts is which aspect of his greatness we’re talking about.
You have said: “The peace and ahimsa that is the backbone of hindu-sikh society, would go a long way to treat Pakistan of its current malady”. We have no doubts about the malady of Pakistan and that Pakistan does need a remedy, but whether this remedy should be borrowed from our neighbors or not, I have doubts. The “peace and ahimsa” we’ve witnessed in relation to the state-led Sikh-killings in Punjab, the peace extended to the Muslims of Kashmir, the obvious ahimsa factor during the anti-Muslim Gujrat episode and the peaceful demolition of the Babri Mosque are classic examples. In short, Pakistan does have its maladies, and a whole stock of them, but in terms of remedies, truly speaking our good neighbors have little to offer us.
to mubarak
1)
Hindus have reacted to muslim violence after great much delay. Hindu violence against muslims is a belated reaction to islamic invasion and rape of India since/over 1200 years.
2)
Muslims (=quislings of islam) wanted a separate state/country since long – the supposed alienation by M K Gandhi was just an extra excuse.
3)
Pakistan is taking all ideas (and also money, weapons, lessons in politics of suppression, lies and oppression) from its western neighbours – e.g. from arabs, turks, Iranians etc. Does Pakistan have anything original of its own? Pakistan’s fanatic religion and ideology are also imported.
4)
Sikh killings took place after khalistani sikhs had killed 10000 human beings in Panjab with active jubilant help from Pakistan. The word khalistan has the same meaning as the word Pakistan (=land of the pure). The khalistanis had started killings, even of sikhs who did not agree with them, since long before 1984 AD. The body guard who killed Taseer was garlanded by fellow muslims. The sikh body guards who killed Indira Gandhi (which resulted in a bloodbath on sikhs in delhi) were not garlanded by the sikhs.
5)
Babri mosque symbolised the triumph of islamic, arabic and pathan imperialism, rape and loot of India and hindus. Why would the hindus not destroy it?
6)
Muslims have no moral right to stay in India after the creation of Pakistan since the muslims wanted to create Pakistan.
7)
You still don’t wish to admit that the real malady of Pakistan is this religion exported from Arabia. So you can’t claim that you know the malady of Pakistan.
Indians are just begining to realize that Qaid’s TNT vision fulfilment is in their national interest. Even the hard line BJP now appreciate Qaid’s wisdom,. Ironically and almost to the point of contradiction,it will be ,has to be and absolutely imperative that Indians do their best to take the TNT to logical conclusion as tribute to MAJ. Pakistani have failed this great man and now it is up to indians to do the job.
Chalo yaar phir yeh old time bakwas…..Indians kai pas bohat farigh time hai!
Mubarak, your reply merits a response.
The ‘state led killimgs’ statement in Punjab is false. The initiating step was the terrorist movement for Khalistan which targeted all non sikhs, often taking all hindus off a bus and gunning them down.
Similarly the Gujrat riots followed the burning alive of 59 hindus in a train by a muslim mob.
The destruction of a disused Babri masjid followed a thousand year period of destruction of thousands of temples by muslim kings.
From vegetarianism, Jainism, Buddhism to Mahavir and Gandhi, can you please tell me of any other culture in the world that has produced so many pacifist movements.
Your reply awaited Mubarak
hitler was vegetarian.cpmplete extermination of budhhdists and jainese was done by vegetatrians.aadi shankaracharya put 52 ginnis on head of bodh bhikshu budhhdist nuns were converted into DEVDAASIS.as per latest revelation ghandhi was
rascist and gay.please read great soul.it is under his leadership that 4 million indians(hindus and muslims)got killed.instead of spreading modernism and secularism,he was spreading hinduism ,which preaches apartheism.he mate of a german zoinist who taught him and helped him to play his cards correctly.he was hyped by media.he left his wife to other person.
Tajender, learn to spell first!
There is some evidence that General Zia of the Pakistan fame (who gave us the Hudood laws) had some hand in training the so-called Khalistanis plus it is quite possible and even likely that many of those killers were actually agents of Pakistan’s own version of the dark side (grooming up as a sirdarji is the easiest thing in the world!) — unfortunately, only Allah-tala now knows the whole truth, since Zia sahib has already been entered into His durbar — riding his own personal sweet vehicle of a mango!
Observr, the evidence is amply clear that irrespective of “who started it first!” every time there are communal riots in India, the minorities (be they Muslims, dalits, or even Sikhs) end up with the short end of the stick. The vast number of those who are victimized in such way had nothing to do with any of the troubles which allegedly start one thing or another. Justifying violence against innocents on the pretext of “they started it” is asinine. What would make India stronger would be treating its citizens fairly and showing respect for the rule of law by all parties.
OBSERVER,
PLS FIND HEREUNDER ITEMIZED AWNSER OF UR VIEWS,
1.hindus are voilent and brute since their arrival on north indian soil.ashoka converted to budhhdism after murdering his 99 brothers and mascaring almost entire population of kalinga,now orrisa.
rama killed a dalit when he was found reading holy hindu scripture.
2.partition of india was engineered by congress to weaken muslims of subcontinent.in the presence of 35%muslims establishment of hindu rashtra was not possible.
3.pure bullshit.
4.regarding sikhs,1984 mascare was perpetuated by rss,indian fascists,
suppression of sikhs was right act while attack on golden temple was error of judgement forced on indira by hindu suraksha samiti.
.babri masjid was sign of great indian civilization demolished to get hindu votes by bjp.advani who was leading this evil movement is not hindu.
now these epople are facing social boycott from holy people of ayodhya.nobody is allowed to attend their meetings.BECHAREY BAGAIR DOODH KI GAYE HONGAYE HAI.truth has prevailed over evilness.
6.partition had no such clause of population transfer.brhmns took the hind.as they have no history n sindh.
7.bullshit problems in pakistan is due to american plan of dividing pakistan to have road and sea link for their future oil trade from central asia.they similar plan for india.bangladesh is calm and propering.
6.
@ YHL
This Yull Huull lull (YLH) likes to live in the past and views the future with dead eyes. . ”Just because a lawyer agrees to defend an accused does not mean that the lawyer concurs with the crime” is a highly apologetic statement trying to hoodwink others and to applaud the lawyers. An advocate is like a midwife and knows the real position of his case. For his self-interest only he will take any case as long as he can empty the last dime in his client’s pocket. Why is Yull Hell Lull oblivious to this fact which grips the judiciary even now??? Jinnah was an advocate of the elite, a heavy charger, a titular brown marquis for the marquis by the marquis from the marquis ….
People like Yull Hull Lull are the one who are foolishly, impulsively and provocatively responsible for the murder of Taseer and abduction of his son!! They are the mischievous people on land…they are the enemies of the country and its people!!
PMA United States Internet Explorer Windows says:
September 6, 2011 at 7:36 pm
“lawyers garlanding Qadri”
What is not wrong with the lawyers??? Can’t you judge it from the state of mind of this flea called Yull Huull Lull??? He is dying over ”personalities”….trying to stress the significance of his self-proclaimed prophet Mirza ( something, something??). YHL would have been a prophet (or a god) of the Qadianis had he invented a god of and by his own; fought and laid down his life for him!
Why is he blind to the killing spree in Karachi?? Why is he mum over
the killing of so many innocent people there?? Why doesn’t he have the guts to speak up against the rascal politicians plundering Karachi……..and Pakistan?? Why is he blowing his own horn, twisting history and facts to serve the vested interest of his religious needs?? How can one believe him to be sincere towards the so-called secularism or democracy as a whole when he himself is shut in the shell of religious bigotry and malafide self-assertion??
Ok. Brilliant. So everyone should just talk about the killing spree in Karachi.
I am not a journalist or a political figure. I will write about whatever I feel like it.
@ YLH
Nobody stops you from the Qadiani ‘campaign’ you are innuendo bent upon to perpetrating in the name of Jinnah, Taseer, Pakistan, Mullahs and Muslims, etc. ….
By admitting your pusillanimity,apathy and cowardice towards ongoing killings in Karachi you have not only exposed your ulterior motives and malafide intentions behind your hotch-potched blabberings but also confirmed that you are a stigma on humanity’s face.
Confucius wasn’t wrong when he hath said:: Lawyers are idle people; do not go to them!!! His words aptly apply to you!!
@Allahkabanda
I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if I called you “Maulana Abdullah” – Maulana because the title aptly describes your bigotry and Abdullah because that’s the Arabic for Allahkabanda. That should make you euphoric. So cheer up yar. Now coming to the point, I think you’re not getting the point at all. All problems of Pakistan, including Karachi, will be solved if Pakistan finds its way back to Jinnah’s vision of a secular and egalitarian Pakistan. I don’t think YLH is ignoring Karachi. I think he’s talking about the ultimate solution – rediscovering Jinnah’s Pakistan.
You can go on debating Jinnah till eternity come. No improvement in Pakistan will take place through all that. Jinnah will actually obstruct honesty – but radical honesty is what you need in Pakistan. Adoring any Mohammad will only make more for hypocrisy. Creating unquestionable ideologies and personality cults is the trapdoor to the pit of fascism. Honesty will also lead to the collapse of this religion exported from Arabia. That is the correct and reliable way forward for all.
@ obserrv :
I agree with what you said but Islam was born in Arabia, grew up in lands of the unbelievers,lives in the hearts of billions and will live on until eternity. Taking advantage of YLH’s (and the like of him) hypocrisy to frame out yet another prophet after holy Muhammad and to term all Muslims except them as Kafirs provides you undue advantage to malign Muslims and Islam. Fear that day when Muslims of the world get united and………….boom!
Jinnah has no more relevance to Pakistan except a face on the Pakistani bill!
Similarly the Gujrat riots followed the burning alive of 59 hindus in a train by a muslim mob.
The destruction of a disused Babri masjid followed a thousand year period of destruction of thousands of temples by muslim kings
DR THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND RUBBISH.NOW GUJRAAT HIGH HAS ALSO RELEASED MOST OF THE SO CALLED PERPETUATORS.REMAINING WILL BE RELEASED BY SUPREMECOURT.SURE.
GUJRAT ROIT WAS PREPLANNED.BOGEY WAS RESERVED ALL PASSENGERS ARE ALIVE.WHO WERE THOSE INSIDE.
NEVERTHLESS SHRINE OF WALI GUJRATI WAS DEMOLISHED WITHIN HALF HOUR OF ACCIDENT.shows the truth.
hindu fascists perpetuated roit almost every year since 1969.there was godhra then.
HENCE I REQUEST U DR DONT SPREAD THE LIES.STUDY THE CASE AGAIN.
But the cause of Wednesdays happened long back on Sundays…when Kshatra Tej was extinguished from the land by wrong Boudhist & Jaina interpretation seeping in the Civilization Bharat. It stopped producing Shake Shalivahan who took care of Huns who overran Eurocia… on those Sundays we slept when the brutes and their brutal ideology overran todays Iraq, Iran & then Afghanistan… in that sleep I had a dream … not a dream but a nightmare
I had switched off the lights and was sleeping in the interior room of our haweli with my brothers, sisters and parents. Suddenly I lost the two balls which I always had. I started searching in the room for those balls in dark. Some thing.. I guess it was weird noise of thumping of a book made me come out of the Haweli. There was this bearded old man in green (OMG) robe with an alien desert-y book in one hand and very old snake oil lantern in other.
I had seen him entering our village a day before. OMG was a snake oil salesman by trade. He told me to start searching the balls under the oil lamp near his feet.
I: “but I lost the balls inside in the haweli. Please give me that lantern so that I can search the balls where they were lost”
OMG: “it does not matter, bend over and start searching under my feet.”
I: “Why?”
OMG: “Because the book in my hand says so.”
I: “what is this book?”
OMG: “this is divine God’s book.”
I: where does it say so?
OMG: “you cannot understand so I need to read to you and make you understand.”
Then OMG starts reading some lines in alien language. I do not understand a bit. OMG makes me bend over and search under his feet while he was reading those lines.
After a while he stops reading and tells me..
OMG: “the book also says that if you search for your balls under my feet then not only you will get your lost balls but also get the balls of your brothers, father’s, even of your cousins’ and uncles’ who live next door. Imagine how rich and powerful you will be with so many balls. To get others balls you need to bring them to bend over at my feet.”
Now I forgot about my own lost balls and started desiring more and more of others balls. To bring others to his feet first I initially thumped books but later I started forcefully bring my brothers and cousins. To wake more people and bring them to OMG’s feet for bending over, and searching balls, one of my bearded passionate cousin came up with a great idea of using the Alien Snake Oil of OMG to set fire to the whole Mohalla, so that every one gets up immediately or roasted alive.
That is what we did! Many perished but we were determined to get at least 72 balls at OMG feet. Whole Mohalla and nearby neighborhood gutted in the fire. Fire spread to the whole village. The village of Guru Nanak, Guru Govind Singh, GorakhNath, Valmiki, Vashishta, Boudha and Mahavira was completely destroyed.
Now every one was bending over and searching balls under the lamp which OMG only possessed. OMG started calling us with alien desert-y names. We thought he is expressing love by his mouth the way he was expressing by his Dostum between his legs.
There was darkness everywhere. Long time passed… it was truly very long time and now my rear started paining…. when I looked up I saw vicarious smile on OMG’s face.. I realized he was a devil incarnate but it was too late. This alien Snake-Oil Bania Mamooo had made all of us utter Gandoos.
Truly we had reached the nadir of bestiality and stupidity.
Wake up you fool Gandooo! The alien book could be of 4th century, 7th century or 19th century Macaulayi/Marxy or even 20th century Harvadi Wall Streety. The bearded OM could have alien white, green or red (topi) garb. If you cannot find God in the eyes of a kid from your Mohalla, if your senses do not get filled by the native soil when it gets drenched by first mansoon shower then you will never get it from alien books. Those books were meant for you bending over.
chikd .problem is we have nothing to offer to world except kamasutra and fictions called purana.
We dalits had created the greatest civilization on earth in Harappa and Mohenjadaro. The Brahmins who came from central asia and called themselves aryans were so jealous of this civilization. They came and looted us and took all over wealth. They raped our women, took away our cattle. The genocide of Hitler is nothing in comparison with this. But out historians don’t even talk about this. We have the living proof of harappa and mohenjadaro in pakistan. My heart bleeds when I see those ruins. How cruel the brahmins are. This finished our civilization and drove all the people to tamil nadu. It is the great leader Periyar who has liberated our thoughts from this slavery. Periyar said Brahmins are like snakes. Kill them wherever you find them. We should follow periyar and reclaim our lost heritage of Indus valley civilization. We should identify the students of Chanakya who read the arthashastra and used it to destroy Indus Valley civilization and teach these brahmins a lesson. Chanakya’s strategy will not work any more