Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » The Real Issue is not Whether You Think Ahmadis are Muslims or Not.
The Real Issue is not Whether You Think Ahmadis are Muslims or Not.
Raza Habib Raja
Some of my close relatives are Ahmadis and hence I have had the unique opportunity of observing them closely. Pakistan is a country where Ahmadis are hated and also subject to state institutionalized discrimination. And yet despite the open hatred which is shown to them, I have never had the opportunity of hearing any Ahmadi member of my family expressing hatred towards Pakistan or Muslims of other faiths. None of the Ahmadis I know has talked about resorting to violence against so called “real” Muslims of Pakistan despite the fact that they have been subject to violence themselves.
In Pakistan, Ahmadis were declared as Non-Muslim through second amendment. I have written against the second amendment and have also been in arguments with several of its supporters. The supporters of the second amendment have often come up with various defences ranging from supposed Ahmadi non-belief in the finality of the Prophet hood to collective wisdom of the absolute majority (second amendment was passed through majority).
However, one of the most vocal arguments given to me is that Ahmadis too think of all others outside their faith as Non-Muslim and on these grounds it is only fair and square that they should also be declared as Non-Muslim.
Although personally I have never heard it from any Ahmadi relative of mine but some of the people I know (those who belong to Sunni faith) stress that this is the case. A friend of mine pointed out to me that a certain Ahmadi relative of his had not offered Namaz-e-Janaza of his mother owing to the grounds that he construed her as an apostle.
I replied back by asking him to return the favour. If he thinks that Ahmadis are of the opinion that all outside their sect are apostles then it is ok for him to think the same about them. I clarified to him that my point is not that he should assume them to be Muslims but rather that the state has no right to declare someone as Non Muslim.
To put it simply , assuming if Ahmadis do indeed think of Sunnis or other sects as outside Islam, this does not still give you a right to actually legislate them as Non Muslim. All you can justifiably do in return is to just think the same of them. Once you make a law then you are actually giving material and tangible effect to your perception. Pakistan is a unique country where actually a man-made law has decided something which in principle is the prerogative of the Almighty alone.
And yes if tomorrow Ahmadis assume the majority and legislate someone as Non-Muslim, I will oppose that also and on same grounds.
Let me be clear here that there have to be certain limitations with respect to the majority concept in in a modern day democratic state. There are certain areas which should be simply no go areas with respect to legislation. In fact many of the modern democratic states try to have in place the mechanism to ensure that a majority on ethnic as well as religious lines is not able to impose its will on minority. For example, in America Bills of Rights echo the same principle and try to put limitations on what cannot be done by the state. In fact in USA, a thing like second amendment will be struck down by courts even if the super majority passes it.
So think whatever you want to about Ahmadis but you don’t have the moral authority to make absurd laws just because your perception of a Muslim is different and because you think that they also construe you as out of Islamic faith. Let Allah be the ultimate judge. Do not assume that power yourself. Remember that every privilege in this life comes with a responsibility. Majority comes with a responsibility that it will not be misused to deny others their rights. Let’s try to assume our responsibility.
Filed under: Uncategorized · Tags: Ahmadis, majority, Muslims, Pakistan
201 Responses to "The Real Issue is not Whether You Think Ahmadis are Muslims or Not."
Leave a Reply
Recent Comments
- roamin
said Hi MA,
loved your retort!!!! But Ahem did get u... - tajender
said evidence” that Rajiv Gandhi received a bribe, bu... - tajender said I have never seen a bigger idiot than you. You sta...
- tajender said ,BRHMN IN MAN KILLS THE GENIU IN HIM
,BRHMN IN...
- tajender said MR AKB AND REX,BRHMN IN MAN KILLS THE GENIU IN HIM...
- MA
said Once again I would say, that your obsession with P... - MA said Dear Ahem,
I feel sorry for you, as your variou...
- tajender said Ethnically speaking all Subcontinentals are Hindus...
- AKB
said How utterly amazing is someone who flees from some... - AKB said UGLY INDIA!!
.
India’s slide leads to an i...
@Amaar:
An analogy might do.
When a close loved one dies, we may get angry, and we could come up with reasons of why that was ‘wrong’. Even if we got God involved in, we might be furious at Him for taking the loved one away from us. But if we “respect” what happened, we take into account the numerous variables that have caused the death, including our own insignificance, and including the fact that its death that has been the cause of life, and most importantly the knowing that is about something larger! And I am not talking in a religious or spiritual way. Purely material issues involved. When we “respect” something we don’t like personally, we agree that our personal emotions are not more important than the collective.
.
When I said “respect” parliament, I did not mean respect the stance taken. I meant, respect the Law, with the capital L. Work to change the law, if at all. But don’t “complain” or “nag”. Respect the system in place that is neutral to anyone who wants to change the law. If you don’t respect the system, fine, then come forward and change the system! Again, don’t “complain” or “nag”. Simply realize what “work” is required to create the changes we wish to see.
@ salman
Through complains, the process of convincing other begin. When we say that parliament should change a law, we have to crtisize its earlier stance. Otherwise law can not change if that stance was right.
@Amaar:
The whole issue WAS due to conflict of interest!
The definition issue when taken up in court, did not materialize. Because its arguments were flawed.
But since all the other sects agreed to support each other against the Ahamdis, then its simply a political issue, very valid for a Parliament. It is a religious issue only implicitly. But not a theological issue, of the type whether the Prophet is alive or not! And so this definition of a Muslim is not a theological definition, in that one has to have imaan on the Constitution of Pakistan. No. The people of Pakistan believe that it is their OPINION that such is the definition of a Muslim. Allah might not approve of it, but as they say, Allah knows better!
@RHR:
I agree with that.
I used “complain” in the sense of nagging or fretting. In the sense of complaining against problems, instead of doing something materially to solve them.
That has become a general trend in our society. So was just referring to that.
@RHR,
“No in present day America, it wont pass.”
Of course it won’t!
I meant in Pakistan, it would have passed even if the criteria was as stringent as America. (i.e 3/4th of both Houses plus 3/4th of states)
@SalmanArshad,
“My understanding is that the word “people” in that sentence of yours is used in an abstract way. For practical purposes, Parliament is the People”
No. By people I meant actual individuals. And parliament is NOT the people. It is an institution of the state whose members are elected by the individuals and certain specific authority is delegated to it.
In fact, this is one of the most dangerous things about democracy. Because the State can claim to act AS THE PEOPLE it opens the door to virtually unlimited power of the state.
Ultimate sovereignty resides in the individual.
Let me summarize things we ALL agree on.
The 2nd amendment was unwise and has led to harmful consequences. We should work to raise awareness of its harmful effects so that eventually we can convince enough people that their elected representatives can overturn the 2nd amendment.
I know we disagree on the rights of parliament and scope of its authority. But we can all agree on the above statement.
@ krash
I agree with you regarding your assessment about parliament. It is REPRESENTATIVE democracy we are talking about which by the way suffers from classical principal agent problem. Here not every issue is directly voted upon and rather an overall mandate is given. Even the elections do not ensure that party’s every step is appraised by the electorate. Electorate eventually just appraise the overall performance of a particualr government.
@ krash
Yes I agree with your statement.
@Kashif:
Kashif you wrote:
“Do Ahmadis come up to the standard of Islam as set by the Holy Prophet? Yes they do, because they call themselves Muslim, the proclaim “Laa ilaaha illallah Muhammadur rasoolullah”, they have the same articles of faith as listed by the Holy Prophet and they observe all five pillars of Islam.”
My question to you:
Why Qadiani-Ahmadis do NOT extend the same favor to other who do exactly the same that Qadiani-Ahmadis do???
Why Qadiani-Ahmadis continue to call other non-Qadianis as KAFFIR (non-Muslim) even though they proclaim and observe the same Kalima and articles of faith???
Please do answer. And thanks in advance.
SOME PEARLS OF QADIANI-AHMADIS BELIEFS. HOW DARE THEY ARE DECALRED KAFIR???
QADIANI KHALIFA 2 QUOTES WITH REFERNCES AND PAGE NUMBERS.
“It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it.”
(Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)
“All muslims who are included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs.”
(Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)
“Every one who accepts Moses but not Eisa or accepts Eisa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam.
(Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam p.110)
Question: “Is it permitted to say May God Bless the departed soul, forgive him and send him to Paradise for a person who was not included in Ahmadiyyat?”
Answer: “The KUFR of non-Ahmadis is proven by evident signs and it is not permitted to ask for forgiveness for non-believers (KUFFAR).”
(Al-Fazl Qadian vol.8, No. 59, 7th Feb 1921)
“Non-Ahmadis are the disbelievers therefore their funeral prayers should not be offered, but if an infant of non-ahmadi dies, why should we not pray his funaral prayer, he is not a disbeliever of Maseeh Mowood? I ask the inquirer, that if this is true than why don’t we offer funeral prayer of a Hindu or a Christian child? How many people offer their funeral prayer?” (Anwar-e-Khilafat, Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.93)
“It is the order of Hazrat Maseeh Mowood and firm order that no ahmadi should give his daughter to non-ahmadi. It is obligatory on every ahmadi to carry it out….. there is great loss in it, besides this marriage is not permitted.”
(Barakat-e-Khilafat by Mirza Mehmood p.73)
“Our prayers are separate from Non-ahmadis, it is forbidden to give our girls to them, we are stopped to offer their funeral prayers. Now what is left that we can participate with them? There are only two kinds of relations – religious and worldly. For religious relations, it is the gathering for prayers and for worldly relations, it is the marriage and both are forbidden for us.”
(Mirza Basheer Ahmad, Kalimat alFasl p.169)
“The point is now quite clear. If it is ‘Kufr’ (infedility) to deny the
Gracious Prophet (Muhammad pbuh), it must also be ‘Kufr’ to deny the Promised Messiah, because the Promised Messiah is in no way a separate being from the Gracious Prophet; rather he is the same (Muhammad incarnate). If anyone is not deemed a Kafir for denying the Promised Messiah, then anyone else who denies the Gracious Prophet also cannot be considered a Kafir. How is it possible that denying him in his first birth as Prophet should be regarded as Kufr, but denying him in his (reincarnated) second birth as prophet should not be regarded as Kufr, when, as claimed by the Promised Messiah, his (Mirza’s birth as Muhammad incarnate) spiritual attainment is stronger, complete and severe.”
(Kalimatul Fasl, pages 146-147, as cited in the Review of Religions, dated March-April 1915)
“Any person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Christ, or believes in Christ but does not believe in Muhammad, or believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not only a Kafir, but a ‘pakka’ (confirmed) Kafir, and (he is) out of the fold of Islam.”
(Kalimatul Fasl, page 110, by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, M.A.)
“All such Muslims who did not swear allegiance to the promised Masih (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian), even though they did not hear the name of the Promised Masih, are Kafir and debarred from the fold of Islam.”
(Aiena-e-Sadaqat, page 35, by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad).
@Kashif:
“@ US Citizen
You’re simply not getting the point. You can call me an infidel or heretic or whatever. I can call you an idiot or nut or whatever. But this has nothing to do with legislation.”
Kashif,
I am NOT calling you ‘infidel’, ‘heretic’. Infact i consider you a Muslim. Godforbid if SOME ONE in your immediate family dies, and i am in the city, I WILL OFFER HIS OR HER JANAZAH (funeral prayer), EVEN IF IT IS LED BY A QADIANI. But i know, Godforbid my mother dies, YOU WILL NOT OFFER HER JANAZAH,EVEN IF YOU HAPPEN TO ME IN THE HOME OF MY MOTHER. I KNOW YOU VERY WELL PERSONALLY. Calling me ‘idiot’ or ‘nut’ DOES NOT HIDE THE REAL REASON FOR QADIANIS BEING CALLED KAFIR. Qadianis hold belief that Non-Qadianis reciters of Kalima are Kafir. And they got the taste of their medicine, and they themselves are declared Kafir by “kafirs”. WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
ALLAH IS PUNISHING QADIANIS!!!!
@Amaar:
You wrote:
“Coming to the question of attaining the higher spiritual levels known as “Islam fawq-al-Eman”, in the Islamic jargon, Ahmadis believe that without accepting the God-sent Mahdi, it is not logically possible to attain the highest levels of spiritual progress. ”
PLEASE KEEPING ALLAH SWT AS YOUR WITNESS, WITH INVITATION OF HIS WRATH, DESTRUCTION AND DEATH ON YOUR IMMEDIATE LOVED ONES, STATE THIS IS THE ONLY REASON FOR YOU CALLING NON-QADIANI RECITERS OF KALIMA-SHAHADA AS KAFIR (NON-MUSLIM)!!!!
Question:
Why Qadianis do NOT offer prayer behind a Lahori-Ahmadi or Janazah (funeral prayer) of Lahori-Ahmadi EVEN THOUGH THEY TOO CONSIDER MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD AS God-Sent Mahdi???
@Amaar:
You wrote to Krash:
“@Krash
The issue is beyond having “authority”. This is way outside the jurisdiction of the Parliament. The Parliament is not competent to take such decisions.”
If my some accident, Pakistan Parliament in 1974 had majority of Qadianis THEY WOULD HAVE DECLARED non-Qadiani reciters of Kalima as Kafir. They would have even decalred Lahori-Ahmadis as Kafir too. AND PARLIAMENT WOULD ALL OF A SUDDEN HAD BECOME COMPETENT TO TAKE SUCH DECISIONS!!!
It is a patent falsehood that ahmadis consider non-ahmadis do be kaafir. That particular epithat can only be applied by the almighty and nobody else.
What the ahmadis DO believe is that they cannot consider a person who calls THEM kaafir to be a muslim. That’s a pretty simply logical conclusion actually.
Think about it. Ahmadis stick to the fundamental principle that anybody believing in one God and the prophethood of Mohammad (pbuh) is a muslim. However when a “real” muslim comes along and says that ahmadis are non-muslim , how can they continue to consider HIM a muslim? To consider him a muslim even though he considers ahmadis kaafir is not possible since that would tantamount to admitting that ahmadis are non-muslim.
Basically if i say we are both right, but you say only you are right but i am wrong, then i am forced to say that you are wrong also. To continue saying we are both right would mean that i agree with your statement that you are right and i am wrong. And that is of course not possible. All that is required is acceptance from the other party that we BOTH may be right.
Ahmadis only consider people kaafir who consider ahmadis kaafir. if however a muslim acknowledges an ahmadis right to consider himself a muslim, no ahmadi may consider that man a non-muslim (irrespective of his belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed). Ahmadis do NOT consider affiliation with the jamaat as a condition to b e considered a muslim. The only thing required is acknowledgement of an ahmadi’s right to consider himself a muslim.
It has always been very easy for anti-ahmadi activists to provide slanderous material (much of it fiction created for anti-ahmadi movements). Rarely do the mullahists ask ahmadis what they beleive. Instead that prefer to TELL ahmadis what they believe, whether it has any relation to the truth or not.
@Hassan K Bajwa
I think you have brought it to a point! Non-Ahmedi Muslims have no right to consider Ahmedis as Non-Muslims. Non-Ahmedi Muslims cannot throw out believers in Allah and Mohammed out of the fold. Would Allah like Sunnis to be deciding who may believe in him or not? Sunnis are not Allah’s gatekeepers or bouncers!
The 5 Pillars do not say anything about the finality of Prophethood of Mohammed.
Finalism leads directly to fascism.
The concept of revelation itself is blasphemous. It is an attempt to replace god through his words or through words ascribed to him. it is anattempt to keep him o0ut by replacing him through a book or so-called prophet. The WAR-religions (=West Asiatic Revelation-based) have been doing this since thousands of years and bringing godless-ness, blasphemy, war and evil upon us all.
Their madness(es), confusions, abusive ways, violence(s), pseudo-debates, arrogances, deceits and self-deceits just don’t come to an end, and never will.
@Salman Arshad “My understanding is that the word “people” in that sentence of yours is used in an abstract way. For practical purposes, Parliament is the People.” You’re right. Since Parliament is the People and People is god, therefore Parliament is god and thus entitled to decide on who is and is not a Muslim.
@Amaar “Do not forget that the parliament did not define who a ‘Muslim’ was – it did define what a ‘Muslim’ was not. Either a definition of Islam was created 1400 years ago or it was not. If it was, then the parliament’s decision becomes an infraction of that historical verdict of the Prophet (sw). Otherwise, if the founder of Islam did not define a Muslim back then then how can any one else define Islam now – particularly a parliament?” During the Munir-Kiyani Commission inquiry proceedings, Justice Munir asked all the ulema present there to define the term “Muslim”. No two maulvis could agree on a single definition. Justice Munir was so amused that he commented that “in 1400 years you people have still not been able to define the word “Muslim”.” Your point is a very valid one – in 1974, the Parliament of Pakistan defined who was not a Muslim without having a clue of who was a Muslim. Quite an accomplishment.
@ US Citizen
I think you should take the trouble of going through posts addressed to you. That will save everybody’s time. Since apparently you either did not read my comment or failed to understand it, I’m posting it once again. This is what I said:
……………………………………………
You call this serious discussion? You’re going to an anti-Ahmadi website, committed to dissipation of lies against Ahmadis, and then presenting your polluted and prejudiced views here. There are dozens of similar anti-Islam sites out there too, spreading similar lies.
The Ahmadiyya Jamaat’s stance has always been that anyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim. Whether he is a Muslim in the eyes of God or not, only God can tell. I’m not God. You’re not God. And that’s that. Coming to the question of attaining the higher spiritual levels known as “Islam fawq-al-Eman”, in the Islamic jargon, Ahmadis believe that without accepting the God-sent Mahdi, it is not logically possible to attain the highest levels of spiritual progress. Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, the second successor of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Community, has repeatedly stated this position. There is a huge difference between “Islam fawq-al-Eman” and “Islam” per se. Hence, the word ‘kufr’ has been used in the sense of anyone who does not accept the Messiah in line with the Prophet(sw)’s wishes – but still not in the sense forcibly throwing the person outside of his association to Islam. We also use the word ‘kufran i naemat’ (rejection of blessing) which does not imply that the person has become an infidel or a non-Muslim.
Bottomline: Anyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim – the Prophet’s decree.
……………………………………………..
Take my advice. Keep a closer watch on your schizophrenia. A relapse is the last thing you want.
to amaar
All muslim terrorists and killers also call themselves muslims and shriek “allahu akbar” as they kill.
So how come you muslims then say a killer or terrorist cannot be a muslim? Or, although they all come from kuran schools, they are trained/financed by RAW or MOSSAD or CIA etc.?
God has seen what nonsense, confusions and violences all this “prophetism” and “holy bookism” causes.
He does not send any prophets. He never did. Books are never holy or unholy.
He has given us intelligence – but not equally to all. And islam deprives the muslims even of that little intelligence that they got at birth.
@Hassan Bajwa:
Your: “What the ahmadis DO believe is that they cannot consider a person who calls THEM kaafir to be a muslim. That’s a pretty simply logical conclusion actually”
If this is the case as you say, then please tell me: Why Qadiani-Ahmaids do NOT offer prayer behind Lahori-Ahmadis?? Why Qadianis do NOT offer Jannazah of Lahori-Ahmadi???
FYI: Lahori-Ahmadi do NOT call anyone Kafir. Lahori-Ahmadis consider EVERY RECITER OF KALIMA-SHAHADA AS MUSLIM, INCLUDING QADIANIS!!!
@Kashif:
Your: “Either a definition of Islam was created 1400 years ago or it was not. If it was, then the parliament’s decision becomes an infraction of that historical verdict of the Prophet (sw).”
PLEASE CHANGE WORD ‘PARLIAMENT’IN YOUR ABOVE QUOTE WITH QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD, and tell us did he have the right to decide who is a Muslim and who is not???
@Amaar:
I read your post. I do NOT copy paste from anti-Qadiani websites. Many of these websites have articles translated into English, BY THIS WRITER. 10 years ago i started translated articles from Urdu. WRITTEN BY FORMER STAUNCH FOLLWERS OF QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD, WHO FOUNDED HAQIQQAT PASSAND PARTY (The Party of Realists). They were Waqaf-e-Zindghi (had pledged their lives). When they came to know about sexual orgies of Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, they in turn to save the mission of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, THE FATHER OF QADIANI KHALIFA 2. HPP people to this day hold staunch belief in divine appointment of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. HPP personanlly investigated and interviewed the victims of sexual rapes by QK2. THESE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL RAPES OF QADIANI KHALIFA 2 INCLUDE HIS (QK2) OWN DAUGHTERS, SONS, SISTER IN LAW; FOLLOWERS DAUGHTERS, SONS, AND WIVES.
FYI: I am licensed Psychiatrist in USA, currently doing further specialization in a very Prestigious Hospital in USA. So don’t tell me what is Schizophrenia.
I wish your own mother, aunties and motherand auties of my Qadiani relatives had become sexual rape victim of Qadiani Khalifa 2 to help them realize what a creature he was. He was worse than Rasputin!!
@US citizen
Your hateful and abusive words only indicate that your mental sickness is now beyond humanly intervention – and you are incapable of civil conversation.
@Amaar,
I take only SEXUAL RAPE OF YOUR MOTHER AND AUNTIES by Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad WOULD HAVE CONVINCED YOU THAT QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD WAS WORSE THAN RASPUTIN. QADIANIS IN PAKISTAN ARE IN THIS GREAT $H!T BECAUSE OF HIM. QK2 threw $h!t on other Kalima-Shahada reciters and they in return thre them back on Qadianis ,and you Qadianis are complaining!
A religion full of contradictions, conflicts and confusions generates the need for some “unity”. So the followers of this religion are looking for some unifying stuff so that can reduce the violence among themselves for a while and direct it at “others”. So hating India, Hindus, Israel, jews, USA etc. becomes mandatory and a criterion and cause of this pseudo-unity-tauhid of muslims.
The ahamadiyas became the targets after the hindus had been exterminated from West Pakistan. Reducing hindus to 0% would have looked too too bad, so the need to direct the anger at the ahamadiyas and others.
The goddess Kali (the black Parvati, wife of Shiva) demands blood only in mythology. But the mohammadan god and his Kalima (Kali Ma) demand it in reality. Human blood, goat blood, shia blood, hindu blood whatever. That is called a festival in this Black Box religion.
@ US Citizen
You are nothing but a shameless LIAR whose shamelessness knows no bounds.
How prostitution and caste system are practised in the islamic world and how women are misused as throw-away objects by muslim men:
Look at the wikipedia article on Sultan bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, the 81 year old “crown prince” of Saudi Arabia, who died some days ago. Take a look at the list of his “princesses wives”. He was divorced 7 times.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_bin_Abdul-Aziz_Al_Saud
Islam devalues women like no other religion.
@ US Citizen
All men of God have been maligned by despicable liars and losers like yourself. People who are incapable of any sensible and decent discussion and also suffer from schizophrenia, tend to throw fits of delirium. You are one among many suffering from this disorder. One single verse of the Holy Quran says all there is to say about unfortunate and pathetic souls like you: “Woe unto each slanderer and backbiter” (104:1). You have the rare privilege of being both – a slanderer and a backbiter. May Allah pay you befittingly for the lies you have uttered, Amen.
@Kashif:
“Kashif says:
October 23, 2011 at 3:54 pm
@ US Citizen
You are nothing but a shameless LIAR whose shamelessness knows no bounds.”
Are you denying that you were in the home of Lahori-Ahmadi and you and other Qadiani-relatives of deceased did NOT offer Jannazah (funeral prayer) of deceased Lahori-Ahmadi???
Kashif, IF it was NOT you and some non-relative Qadiani of mine, i would have asked him to FOLLOW TRADITION OF MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD and deny under oath with invitation of death of your children!!
@Amaar:
“Amaar says:
October 23, 2011 at 9:13 pm
@ US Citizen
All men of God have been maligned by despicable liars and losers like yourself. People who are incapable of any sensible and decent discussion and also suffer from schizophrenia, tend to throw fits of delirium.”
WHAT YOU SAY, IS ABSOLUTE LIE. Men of God were maligned by NOT their close followers. Where as Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad (aka Khalifa Zani) was exposed by his STAUNCH FOLLOWERS, THOSE WHO HAD PLEDGED THEIR LIVES IN HIS SERVICE, BUT THEY ALL TURNED AWAY ONLY BECAUSE THEY WERE HELD IN HIGH ESTEEM THE FATHER OF QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD namely Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. These former staunch followers of QK2 publically demanded from QK2 to appoint an inquiry commission appointed by QK2 himself, where these former staunch Qadianis would have presented testimony by VICTIMS OF QK SEXAUL RAPES, including his biological daghters, sister in-law, biological sons, his followers wives, daughters and sons.
I WISH YOUR MOTHER AND AUNTIES AND MOTHER AND AUNTIES OF QADIANI RELATIVES HAD LIVED IN QADIAN AND RABWAH, WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE BE SEXUALLY RAPED BY QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMDU AHMAD. This way you and my Qadiani relatives would have believed that Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was WORSE THAN RASPUTIN.
@ US Citizen
“Men of God were maligned by NOT their close followers.”
I certainly hope your ignorance of psychiatry is not equivalent to your ignorance of history. If that be the case, your patients are exposed to the most grave of perils. With the exception of Aaron, the closest of disciples of Moses betrayed him. Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve disciples of Jesus betrayed him. Abdullah bin Ubayy, a Muslim of Madina betrayed Muhammad. All these men of God were maligned by both enemies and hypocrites. So I’m not surprised when Mirza Mahmud Ahmad is maligned by the likes of you.
So much for your in-depth study of history. Coming to your in-depth study of psychiatry, I can only sympathize with your unfortunate patients and pray for them.
@ US Citizen
“I am licensed Psychiatrist in USA, currently doing further specialization in a very Prestigious Hospital in USA. So don’t tell me what is Schizophrenia”
I wonder what happens when a schizophrenic nut becomes a psychiatrist. May God have mercy on your patients.
@Amaar:
You are WRONG.
NONE of the followers of Divine Appointees accused them of having SEX WITH HIS BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTERS AND SONS, AND BROTHER’S WIFE, AND BROTHERS DAUGHTERS, AND BIOLOGICAL SISTER, AND DAUGHTERS AND SONS AND WIVES OF HIS FOLLOWERS!!!!!!!!!
MOREOVER: WHOSE WHO ACCUSSED QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMDU AHMAD ALL THEIR LIVES REMAINED THE STAUNCH FOLLOWERS OF QADIANI KAHLIFA 2 BIOLOGICAL FATHER NAMELY MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD. Your answer has NO value because by your logic those who opposed QK2 should have also exposed his father. That did NOT happen!!!
@Farhad:
You’re a TYPICAL MAHMUDI I.E. A WORST KIND OF QADIANI. LIKE YOUR ZANI KHALIFA, YOU REVERT TO NAME CALLING AFTER HEARING THE FIRST ARGUMENT FOR WHICH YOU MAHMUDIS HAVE NO ANSWER!!!
@ US Citizen
It would be quite futile talking to a sworn and committed liar such as yourself. Actually, I have talked to liars before but conducting a serious and sensible conversation with a schizophrenic can be pretty useless. If you know any colleague of yours, I mean another psychiatrist, it may be useful to get an early appointment for yourself.
Dear Raja Sahab,
I take your comments seriously. I consider myself a non-sectarian Muslim and thus not belonging to any majority or minority sect of Islam. I believe that sectarian conflicts have tremendously harmed Pakistan and Pakistani society. I believe that our religious leaders and religious activists by creating religious conflicts have literally taken our society apart. Religious conflicts take nation’s attention away from the real problems of the society. I dislike sectarianism of all colors. In that respect I believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his children and Ahmadi activism has done great harm to our society. The Ahmadiyya Jamaat by taking some obscure “hadees” (sayings) of Prophet Mohammad has justified creation of a new cult around their prophet. But I must add that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is perfectly within his religious rights to declare himself a prophet and a messiah. But I also believe that by insisting that their belief is the true Islam and even after adding a new prophet their religion remains Islam has injured religious sentiments of Muslims. Therefore I also believe that Muslims of Pakistan are perfectly within their rights to legally declare the Ahmadiyya group as non-Muslim. This is a conflict between people and “God” has nothing to do with it. Of course these are my views only and I do not insist that others should agree with me. I am afraid I will not be able to add any further on this subject. You have access to my e-mail address. Please feel free to contact me at your pleasure.
With many regards. PMA.
@US Citizen
“NONE of the followers of Divine Appointees accused them of having SEX”
There goes your study of history again. Yusuf (Joseph) was accused of committing adultery. Maryam (Mary) was accused of giving birth to an illegitimate child following adultery. Alas! you are keeping that evil legacy alive.
@PMA
“In that respect I believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his children and Ahmadi activism has done great harm to our society. ”
It must be borne in mind that the Ahmadi community was entirely created in its early years through such ‘activism’. But it is entirely unfair to say that they has done harm to our society. If you are right then it would imply that the Muslim society was at peace with itself before – clearly untrue if we look at 19th century in India.
It must also be borne that even if Ahmadis have emphasized certain theological issues they have
(1) done so well within the bounds of law – non-Ahmadis also have the liberty to spread their beliefs.
(2) Mirza Mahmud Ahmad has immense contributions towards the Kashmir movement and then later Pakistan.
(3) Ahmadis have contributed immensely to the creation and sustainance of Pakistan (e.g. Abdus Salam, Sir Zafrulla Khan, General Janjua etc.).
(4) Despite strong laws against them, they have not violated the peace of the country.
In all fairness, that the activism was also to reform practises and beliefs which Ahmadis consider harmful to Islam in general. For example, on the issue of Jihad, life of Jesus etc. their beliefs have slowly but surely been adopted by many ‘mainstream’ Muslim scholars as well.
@Farhad:
Use your brain IF YOU HAVE ANY.
Do you deny Qadiani Kahlifa 2 was ALL HIS LIFE ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH PEOPLE OTHER THAN HIS WIVES???
Do you deny that it was demanded from QK2 to setup inquiry commission appointed by him that holds a public inquiry and record testimonies publically, including that of QK2???
Tell us why QK2 did NOT hold such inquiry???
WAS WORST THAN RASPUTIN I.E. QK2 SUPERIOR TO HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAWS??
HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAWS FIRST OFFERED HIS PERSON LIFE AND CHARACTYER FOR SCUTINY BEFORE GIVING HIS MESSAGE!!!! WHY QK2 DID NOT OFFER HIS CHARACTER FOR SCRUTINY EVEN WHEN IT WAS DEMANDED REPEATEDLY???
THINK! THINK! THINK!
ASK YOURSELF QUESTIONS!!!
@Amaar:
I AM GLAD HOW PAKISTANI ARE F*CKING YOUR MOTHERS AND FATHERS IN PAKISTAN. You people have NO shame. You people bring the Holy Personalities mentioned in Holy Quran and revered by Muslims, to hide character of your RASPUTIN QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD.
You idiot, Holy Quran does NOT accuse Hazrat Marriam (Mary) and Hazrat Yusaf (Joseph) A.S. It is bible and Holy Quran EXONERATES THEM AND CLEARS THEM OF SUCH BLASPHAMY!!!
Where as your QK2 had SEX WITH HIS BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTERS AND SONS, NICES, SISTER IN-LAWS, MOTHERS AND AUNTIES OF TODAY’S QADIANIS. MAY BE YOURS TOO!!!
@PMA:
Dear brother in Islam PMA:
Two points:
1- You need to look at an issue from all sides. Jesus (Eisa AS) is accused of claming to be son of God by Chrsitians. But Muslims reject that he made any such claim. Similarly, Qadianis accuse Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of making claim of Prophet-hood. But Lahori-Ahmadiyya reject that claim. UNLIKE QADIANIS, Lahori-Ahmadiyya belief: (1)- All reciters of Kalima-Shahada are Muslims. (2)-Belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is NOT must for a Muslim. (3)-Ismahu-Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran is for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS and NOT for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
2- you wrote:”Therefore I also believe that Muslims of Pakistan are perfectly within their rights to legally declare the Ahmadiyya group as non-Muslim.”
I can tell you, if by some accident Qadianis had attained Majority in Pakistan before 1974, not only that they would have declared other reciters of Kalima-Shahada as Kafir, but they would have made their lives miserable and most probabaly had murdered them. Qadianis history is full of such incidents when Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was head of Qadianis in Qadian and Rabwah
UPDATED POST WITH CORRECTIONS.
@PMA:
Dear brother in Islam PMA:
Two points:
1- You need to look at an issue from all sides. Jesus (Eisa AS) is accused of claming to be son of God by Chrsitians. But Muslims reject that he made any such claim. Similarly, Qadianis accuse Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of making claim of Prophet-hood. But Lahori-Ahmadiyya reject that claim.LAHORI-AHMADIYYA DO NOT BELIEVE MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD MADE ANY CLAIM OF PROPHETHOOD. Moreover UNLIKE QADIANIS, Lahori-Ahmadiyya belief: (1)- All reciters of Kalima-Shahada are Muslims. (2)-Belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is NOT must for a Muslim. (3)-Ismahu-Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran is for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS and NOT for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
2- you wrote:”Therefore I also believe that Muslims of Pakistan are perfectly within their rights to legally declare the Ahmadiyya group as non-Muslim.”
I can tell you, if by some accident Qadianis had attained Majority in Pakistan before 1974, not only that they would have declared other reciters of Kalima-Shahada as Kafir, but they would have made their lives miserable and most probabaly had murdered them. Qadianis history is full of such incidents when Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was head of Qadianis in Qadian and Rabwah
“I can tell you, if by some accident Qadianis had attained Majority in Pakistan before 1974, not only that they would have declared other reciters of Kalima-Shahada as Kafir, but they would have made their lives miserable and most probabaly had murdered them……”
Isn’t that what the Sunni majority has done to all others; the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Christians, the Ahmedyias, the Shias etc.?
Or maybe Mr. ‘US Citizen, currently training in a ‘prestigious psychiatry residency program’ doesn’t consider it such a bad thing, as long as it is being done to others.
@Casual Observer:
“Or maybe Mr. ‘US Citizen, currently training in a ‘prestigious psychiatry residency program’ doesn’t consider it such a bad thing, as long as it is being done to others.”
ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT QADIANIS SHOULD NOT SHED CROCODILE TEARS.
WHEN QADIANIS HAD MAJORITY ANS POWER AND CONTROL IN QADIAN AND RABWAH THEY WERE WORSE THAN WOLVES. YES QADIANIS ARE WOLVES. QADIANI WOLVES ARE HIDING IN SHEEP CLOTHS!!!!
@ US Citizen
Maulana – Your Telling-Lies-Syndrome is obviously incurable – utterly hopeless. Your Shamelessness-Syndrome is also a terminal one – again hopeless. I’ve spoken to some good doctors. They think your Schizophrenia too, has entered the danger zone. I think the only disease of yours we can work on, is your “Caps-Lock-On-Obsessive-Disorder”.
The language of ‘US citizen’ says it all about what kind of ‘Muslim’ he is. Not sure any decent person would want to be such a ‘Muslim’ or seek his approval of Islam. To US citizen his ‘Islam’ while to us ours!
I, being a U.S. Citizen disavow anything said by the so-called “U.S. Citizen” on this blog! His foul language and disgusting sexual innuendos are “beyond the pale”! They have no business being posted here and should be deleted by the Webmaster! They are not representative of anyone that I know, or at least anyone that I know that would disgrace themselves and the U.S. by posting such things on a Blog, much less a foreign one!
Lady Guinevere
@ Lady Guinevere
May I sincerely thank you for the courage you have shown in taking a stand for the cause of decency. I fully agree with you that this individual blogging under the pseudonym of “US Citizen” is nothing but an insult to all US citizens. USA has always stood for and continues to stand for religious freedom and religious rights. This person seems to have deliberately picked this name to malign the USA, by spewing nothing but lies and hate speech on this thread. My fear is that if the moderators continue to accommodate him at PTH inspite of his indecencies, some people who visit the PTH for its decent environment, might actually feel compelled to leave.
On the same note, I feel indebted to thank Raza Habib Raja for the moral courage and downright decency he has shown in authoring this article. The very title “The Real Issue is not whether you think Ahmadis are Muslims or not”, should have been the topic of discussion. What I think about another person or what someone else thinks about me, is not an issue anyway. The issue is that the State, Constitution and Law should not, on any account, think anything about the religious identity of any of its citizens. That is the core issue. The founder of Pakistan had clearly stated: “You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the State” (M.A.Jinnah -August 11, 1947). There is immense wisdom in these words, words uttered by one of the greatest men of our times.
It is sad that Pakistani legislators completely ignored these words of the founder of Pakistan. What is even sadder is that 30,000 or so Pakistanis have been killed by Pakistani mullahs in Pakistan and still Pakistanis fail to get the joke.
No need to get upset simply because someone claiming to be a United States Citizen has gravely abused his accommodation within this and b