Pak Tea House » Opinion » Extremism is getting embedded in the medical profession
Extremism is getting embedded in the medical profession
By Abdul Majeed:
Science is supposed to inculcate rational thinking among its practitioners. The whole scientific methodology relies on definitive evidence and not just myths or fable. Paradoxically, in case of religious extremism, it has been observed that students of science have been actively involved in acts of terrorism and their scientific education failed to change their narrow-mindedness and bigotry.
Research by Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog has shown that engineers are more susceptible to join Islamic Radical groups than other people. Similar data is not available about Doctors. However, based on information about the terrorist networks and terrorists themselves it is not difficult to find doctors in prominent roles. Most famous and perhaps dangerous is Dr Ayman-az-Zawahiri, a pediatrician from Egypt believed to be the second-in-command of Al Qaeda and the chief ideologue. Abu Hafiza, the master-mind of Madrid bombings, Dr Akmal Waheed, accused of having links with Al-Qaeda, attacking the convoy of the Karachi corps commander in 2004 and providing financial aid to the banned Jundullah activists, Bilal Abdulla, who attempted a terrorist attack on Glasgow Airport in 2007, Dr Nidal Malik Hassan, who killed 13 people and wounded 29 others in the worst shooting ever to take place on an American military base at Fort Hood, located just outside Killeen, Texas, Dr Ali Abdullah, who abetted terrorists in attempted murder of wounded Ahmedis in Jinnah Hospital, Lahore, Professor Dr Zafar Iqbal Chohdary, a pioneer of Lashkar e Tayba and last but not the least, Dr Afia Siddiqui(though not a practicing physician/surgeon, she did her PhD in neuroscience), who was one of six alleged al-Qaeda members who bought $19 million worth of blood in Monrovia, Liberia, immediately prior to the September 11, 2001, attacks and who was married in 2003 to al-Qaeda member Ammar al-Baluchi, in Karachi. Al Baluchi is a nephew of al-Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Khaled Ahmed, veteran journalist, noted in his book that “In 2005, I was asked by the Lahore Chapter of doctors’ association to address them on current national issues. I was prepared to discuss the problem of growing religious violence, but when I saw that most of the medical specialists in the high-income bracket were sporting flowing beards and already making speeches in favour of an Islamic revolution, I changed my mind and did not broach the subject of increased religiosity among the scientists in general and doctors in particular. The meeting was finally dominated by Dr Israr Ahmad, himself a medical doctor, and Dr Amer Aziz who had been to Afghanistan to treat Osama bin Laden.”
(Khaled Ahmed, Sectarian War, Oxford University Press, Karachi; 2011; pp 173) The growing radicalization has also caused problems for doctors aspiring to get training in the United States (US being the country with most advanced training facilities).
According to Dr Saima Zafar, president-elect of the Association of Physicians of Pakistani descent in North America (APPNA), this past year 22 physicians from Pakistan who had managed to get through the rigorous process of residency interviews and were matched with residency programmes lost their spots after being refused visas.
Those already in residency programmes also found their positions precarious. One resident at a prestigious programme who had returned to get married found himself being taken off his return flight to America. His visa was revoked without explanation. His programme at Pennsylvania State University’s Hershey campus announced soon after that it would no longer be recruiting Pakistani medical graduates.
What prompts these people to turn towards extremism is hard to judge. We will examine a few theories about this phenomenon though. Hajra Mumtaz, in an article titled “The benefit of grey” opined, “Science teaches certainties that have the equivalent of a moral upper hand through being absolutely and invariably correct. In this way, we have in people the inclination to either totally accept as right, or totally reject as wrong, ideas and attitudes. And so, quite possibly, we have a society that is one step closer to allowing extreme viewpoints or ideologies to take root.
Students of the social sciences and humanities, by contrast, are taught to navigate their way through endless possibilities with no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answer to light the path. Philosophy, history, literature, anthropology, etc are all areas that require the student to traverse the grey areas and the ‘what ifs’, where the only moral upper hand can be logic and rational, coherent debate. These subjects ask the student to take in context and connections and search for alternatives.”
In a research report named “Red Hot Chilli Peppers Islam – Is the Youth in Elite Universities in Pakistan Radical?” It was stated that “The majority believed that madrassah reforms were being imposed by the US and hence were a ruse to manipulate traditional institutions. Majority of respondents also viewed Islam as the right formula for governance. 62% considered Shiites as Non-Muslim. 40% of respondents didn’t believe that imposing military rule was an act of treason. 57% respondents viewed USA as the biggest threat to Muslim Ummah, 43% listed Israel and 33% considered “West” as the biggest threat to Muslim Ummah. 46% were willing to believe that the Taliban were sponsored the US.” The study concluded that, “they[students of Elite Universities] suffer from a closed mind or are prone to exclusivity rather than inclusivity. The ‘us’ versus ‘them’ divide compounded with greater insensitivity towards social and political issues has created an elite generation which may be incapable of mending fences with other groups. Being affluent these youth may have greater stakes in not turning towards active militancy. But then, cases such as Faisal Shehzad or Afia Siddiqui can always happen. These two cases, in fact, indicate the possibility of latent radicalism transforming into radicalism and militancy.
This study did not find any remarkable difference between the thinking of the youth going to elite institutions. Access to better education did not necessarily produce better quality thinking” The sample for this study included 2 medical colleges as well. A worrying thought is that extremism in medical professional is increasing and not decreasing. A “radd-e-Fahashi seminar” was held in a medical college in Lahore. In the same medical college, Hizb ut Tehrir(a banned organization) conducted many workshops and a similar organization “Sout-ul-Ummah” are quite active there. Student wings of Religio-political parties are active in medical colleges especially in Faisalabad, Multan and Bahawalpur. Doctors are considered as one of the most educated group of people. If they are treading towards the path of extremism, what hope there is for illiterate people who form the majority of Pakistan’s populace?
Filed under: Opinion · Tags: Abdul Majeed, doctors, extremism, people
54 Responses to "Extremism is getting embedded in the medical profession"
Leave a Reply
Recent Comments
- tajender
said delhi ke saare langoron kee kidney ghayab hai,anot... - roamin
said Hi MA,
loved your retort!!!! But Ahem did get u... - tajender said evidence” that Rajiv Gandhi received a bribe, bu...
- tajender said I have never seen a bigger idiot than you. You sta...
- tajender said ,BRHMN IN MAN KILLS THE GENIU IN HIM
,BRHMN IN...
- tajender said MR AKB AND REX,BRHMN IN MAN KILLS THE GENIU IN HIM...
- MA
said Once again I would say, that your obsession with P... - MA said Dear Ahem,
I feel sorry for you, as your variou...
- tajender said Ethnically speaking all Subcontinentals are Hindus...
- AKB
said How utterly amazing is someone who flees from some...
Very well you are absuing muslim doctors of having tendencies of extremism.What about the followers of other religions in the world?How many christians,jews and hindu doctors,scientists and others have these extreme views in their soceities?It is easy to pick up Muslims to point out and criticise but when it comes to criticise others the so called liberals and seculars just freeze out at once,because their masters do not like it.
Be fair in criticising muslims and do not be dumb fold against the others.Practice what you preach for muslims before opening big mouth in the name of free speech,that will make it more credible and easy to say.Criticize west as well for its failures and do not treat them as god’s gift to the world.
Don’t think the writer has to be such blind folded to consider all who were rejected visas was due to extremism or labeling them extremist. I think one has to accept that the US policy of visa is too much biased and do include religious racial discrimination
What Muslim Ummah Pakistanis are talking about?
Thats totally blind- There are many who are just named Doctors- Not real- Please stop Victimizing the profession
A topic worth raising and discussing, although I don’t entirely agree with your analysis, especially your appealing to Hajra Mumtaz’s definition of science as based on “certainties”. This is confusing the scientific method with scientific analysis and questioning – something no doubt the student scientists in question themselves don’t either understand, appreciate or are in fact unwilling so to do.
While scientific method may indeed require precision, consistency and repeatability, broader scientific analysis and investigation is definitely not so rigid. It is in fact by constantly being open to question certainties and to re-examine, investigate and experiment that science has been able to disprove old orthodoxies and progress – just the very opposite of the closed minded dogmatism demanded by revealed religions like Islam which after all stands for submission not questioning. It is worrying that Muslim medical students here in the UK have been known to walk out of lectures on evolution, considering it contrary to the teachings in the Quran and so false.
@sardar khan
charity begins at home Sir. I am a medical student myself, that is precisely why I wrote first on my own profession..I’ll continue writing about this topic related to other professions as well..Also, extremism in Hindu/Christian/Jew doctors is none of my bussiness, I would like to clean my own house first.
@Tatom
agreed, US visa policy has biases. but the bias against Paksitanis, Isn’t it due to our export of terrorism to the rest of the world, Dr Afia, Times square bomber, ramzi yusuf etc etc..
@KMR Overseas
I didn’t mention any islamic ummah, as I believe Muslims have not been united ever since the start of Umayyad Caliphate.and that was more than 1300 years ago
@ZZ
true..medical students are not usually taught to treat patients, they are just taught to treat disease, which is kind of unfair because human beings are not machines..as a result, mercenaries are being produced…
@Mrs Z Khan
I respect your right to disagree with me, I think science(esp the way taught in our system) is very inflexible..
Please elaborate the point of this article? It is old news that middle & upper-middle class is more prone to extremism & why doctors should be an exception to this trend is beyond me. Regarding entry to US & other foreign countries, well it is an outcome of being branded as terrorist.
What a strange thought of relating radicalism to a specific profession. I can asure the author that there are no muslims, hindus or jew doctors who are radicals or terrorists! The artile appears to be similar to the CIA or ISI report.
Tell us, what is the author concern and immediate need? Medical studies or internship? The USA institutions are neither elite nor provide exceptional facilties not available in European countries. Admittedly, because of extreme violence in USA specialy on the weekends a medical student has the possibility to get the practical experience in surgery faster than one gets in Europe. But so can one in Afghanistan? Perhaps the english language is the restriction for Pakistan students studies in non english institutions?
RexMinor
The whole society is nurturing religious extremism, and in every field of life.
The analysis in the article, although very true, doesn’t seem to conclude anything specifically about the medical profession.
What a crap!!!People who write such articles are the ones who desperately want to get US Visa and settle there. Instead of writing such articles, just study hard pass ur steps and get settled there. Don’t look for short cuts…
@UI
the point of this article is, science has failed to change our mind-sets..doctors who are supposed to be neutral harbour sympathies towards religious intolerance and violence, that is the point of concern. I admit that the whole society has been immersed in this but this is the 1st part of a series about radicalization of various professions. We need to go step by step, we can’t change or analyze(and shouldn’t)the whole society in one go..
@Rex Minor
didn’t get your point. my concern is increasing intolerance and extremism in my profession, not the visa to US, that is just the effect, not the cause.!!!
@salman arshad
true, the whole society is suffering from this. What I have written is the FIRST time some one has tried to ponder over the question of WHY doctors are more prone to be extremism than general populace.Is it wrong to question in this country.???
@Shazia
I don’t give a damn about USMLE or settling there. You have probably just read ONE part of the article and skimmed over the rest, Kindly read the FULL script and then comment.
For all those wondering WHY I BOTHERED writing this article:-
I was chatting with some final year medical students and their latent religiosity struck a cord, the discussion went on and most of them agreed that OBL operation was an american drama, OBL probably was not a terrorist, it was a yahoodi/US propaganda to paint him as a terrorist, also, 9/11 was a drama and that killing Salmaan Taseer was not very wrong. Another student from 2nd year MBBS the same day asked me if killing shias isn’t a good thing.!!! I was both amazed and terrified of the prospects of these people becoming the future messiahs, that was the basic inspiration, to study this phenomenon..
An interesting read.
BTW, both medicine and engineering are very much “prescriptive” lines of study, unless they actually involve research (i.e., essentially, in those lines of study, you are told what is instead of starting from scratch and finding things out on your own by asking questions, trying hypotheses, etc.– so the scope for questioning is more limited than one would initially think) a charateristic which is analogous to that present in many organized religions — so the study of medicine or engineering does not necessarily entail a “scientific” mindset from the student. Besides, many folks choose those lines more for career payoff prospectus rather than out of a curious mind.
Also, a point can be made that because of the higher pay-off, medical personnel have access to more resources and may be in a position to actually practice whatever suits their fancies — including their own ideas related to what in their own minds they may consider their compulsary religious duties. Individuals in a less financially rewarding line of work may also have similar ideas but may lack the ability to pull them off.
Asra Nomani in this(http://www.salon.com/2001/10/26/mujahida/) article wrote,
“Housewives and grandmothers as well as doctors and women of the educated urban elite are becoming soldiers of the jihad from their sitting rooms”
@Abdul Majeed
my comments are in plain english. Is it possible that you are all mixed up with the input you received from the medical students? In my view they have said nothing to classify them in the ranks of radicals!
The question one needs to ask is as to what is more important for an individual? The mind does not function as an empty container that simply receives data from the outside. To be able to sequence and organise the receiving info one usualy makes use of the intution and the intellect which all of us are more or less blessed with. If a medical student is able to comprehend Gray’s anatomy and perform surgical procedures after becoming a surgeon and thereby practicing a profession to save humans lives, it would be extremely improper and almost insane to then degrade him to the level that you have insinuated in your article.
Pakistan and Afghanistan along with most muslim countries have been radicalisd and destabilised by the imperialist policy of hegemony of the USA. Like the Romans and all other ancient empires of the past the USA hold is now on the decline and yet it is not prepared to coexist with other emerging powers in terms of sharing world resources. It consumes more than it produces, and ths has led them on an aggressive course. More than five hundred bases and the largest armada in history are some of the tools to blackmail foreign Govts. Pakistan Govt is the unique nuclear state which caved in during the time when the Indian born Musharaf was the leader of the country. The communities of Pakistan are now radicalised since there is no longer a unionimity within the different provinces and different sections of the societies
These are the causual factors of the unrest you experience among students and not any irrational radicalism. No one feels and acts as a normal person when his freedom and independence is threatened. Your country is under threat from within and from outside, your independence in tatters when the CIA is walking in and out with approval from a section of military and civilian leadership. To expect a normality in educational institutions among the students and the Professors is a folly. Your writing and explanation indicates that all is not lost yet. In times of outside aggressions students and the intellectuals are the first in row and the last hope of Nations to survive.
Have a good day.
Rex Minor
Extremism is embedded in islam. There are sentences in the kuran which can be used to create the impression that it is not so, or cannot be so. But reality is not made of a bunch of quotes from some book, even a so-called divine book.
When one presents a muslim with the totalitarianism, fascism and imperialism that islam and muslims have been practising since 1400 years, one gets to read some “nice-sounding” quote from the kuran as counter argument. This is how islam has taught muslims to practise self-deceit. And many non-muslims too get carried away and are fooled by this mendacity.
No muslim dares to confront an extremist muslim. Because extremism is ingrained in islam. The non-extremist muslim is easily dismissed as munafik or coward or soft on non-muslims or even as murtad. The core-spirit of kuran is totalitarian and expansionist-imperialist. A muslim who does not participate in this totalitarin core-spirit and contribute forcefully to its victory is a munafik by the very definition given clearly in the kuran. He (=a non-fanatic muslim) is told by the kuran not to know what is good for him.
Dear Abdul Majeed,
This must be THE MOST CLEAR HEADED AND LUCID ARTICLE that I have come about in a long long time on PTH. Clear facts reported unemotionally, and I am somewhat surprised that many (like rex minor, who normally writes well) taking umbrage with you.
Here in UK, I am absolutely amazed and disgusted by growing paranoia and radicalisation of all sections of Pakistani society- even doctors and accountants.
DO PPL KNOW THAT FOR LAST 20 YEARS, HINDU-SIKH AND CHINESE REGULARLY OUTPERFORM EVEN WHITES IN GCSE, while Pakistani and Black students are regularly at the bottom of the pile.
Insight of the kind shown by Abdul will be the first step in Pakistani society pulling itself out of its dark depths, they have my best wishes.
Sardar Balwinder Sandhu, of Hayes and India
(ps- GCSE is the 10th class board exams in UK)
@rex minor
just one thing.
u said, “In my view they have said nothing to classify them in the ranks of radicals!”
Actually If some people think killing the sitting governor of the largest province of the country is right thing to do because he aired his discontent with a draconian law, if it is not radicalism, please tell me what is it. Also, the fact about killing of Shias.
A 20 year old girl is saying that Killing Shias is a good thing, Shias (an Islamic sect constituting 25% of Muslims in the world)are also human beings, How can sympathizing with killing them be NOT radical.?
@Balwinder Sandhu
Thanks alot for appreciation Sir
Rex is not affected by islamic fascism and muslim street gangs because he lives in a non-muslim land. That is why he does not find anything wrong in the islmaofascist radicalization of muslim youth and students.
@Abdul
Those who commit criminal acts are no more or less criminals and the law of the land must deal with them. It is not proper to talk about those who have died, but the Governor of Punjab who, on one hand took the oath to uphold the laws of the country and then questioned the draconian law implemented by none other than his mentor and leader of his political party, was simply a populist politician. The acountant turned businessman, turned poltician was irresponsible towards his family and proved to be incompetent office holder. The security guard who undertook the criminal act was not alone and had the support of his collegues whom obe would consider the collegues in the execution command. Was it a plain murder and if so how come the draconian law against the minorities is still in place, thereby making current rulers as the collaborators of the heinous crimes which are now being committed in the country. There are no patent fixes to curb the violence; the security guard also murdered Indira Gandhi and John f kennedy was also cut down most probably by his security apparatus. Are there less crimes in your neighbouring India or in the USA? The third largest employer in USA is the security and prison establishments.
Though shall not kill is God’s commandment and yet there is a death penalty in yours and neighbouring countries. Muslims worship the God of Ibrahim and promised to follow the commandments of God and be a good muslim, but yet Pakistan leaders conspired to cause death and destruction not only in Bengal but also in Baluchistan and Pashtun land. A large majority of the immigrants from India are simply used to and follow the caste systems of their forefathers most of whom were certainly not muslims. Pakistan is probably the first so called muslim country which in fact has legislated the ex-communication methodology practiced by the catholic Pope. Pakistan has faced the lunatic military ruler who took pleasure in giving lashes to people who committed petty crimes and another still living lunatic who ordered a military assault on the so called Mosque, the God’s house. Pakistan unfortunately has been ruled in the last decade by thugs and a criminal clan, hyped and guided by the corrupt and incompetent media. They alone are responsible for today’s situation in Pakistan. Certainly not the students and medical students in particular.
It is about time that people in Pakistan come out of tis allocating martyr labels to military jawans as Imran khan calls them and regarding the dead civilians as radicals, criminals and terrorists. You know the genisis, but are probably not aware of that Pakistan has undergone more destruction on account of multiple natural disasters which in my view are no less than a punishment from God the almighty ne. More disters are on way and believe you me out of concern and interset I am every now and then watch in the internet the seismic developments in south east region.
Here is one suggestion if you have any use of? Pakistan medical universities could negotiate with the German universities and organise the exchange of medical stodents for a specific period. This simply means that students in Pakistan must learn the german language to be able to study in German universities.
Rex Minor
@hiob
It is the almighty blessing that I was born as a muslim and live in the land of believers, where the majority of the people worship the God of Ibrahim, the arab God in your words.
Rex Minor
@Abdul
The 20 year girl needs spanking for her utterences. A certain section of the orthodox Israeli rabbais claim that according to Tora killing of palestenians childrens is justified because they are the potential enemies of the jewish people. The USA on the other hand justifies the risk of illing civilians old and children when the suspected potential terrorists are the targets, so on and so forth. Death penalty must be abolished in Pakistan as now in place in Christian Europe. Shias and sunnis have different political philosophies but both sections are the elite muslims and together are the golden asset of Ummah in Islam. Let people of Pakistan recognise this and encourage closer cooperation with its muslim neighbours. The persian language after all was the official language during moghul rule, so soon forgotten. Iran ne has the drone which most probably was shot at by the Pashtoons and came down in Iran`. Pakistani experts have now the possibilty to rush to Iran and copy the damn thing for both countries defences?
American declared policy now is to use unmanned aircrafts in place of boots on ground, to control fifty odd muslim countries of the world. In other words no more night raids into afghans houses pressuring women old and children.
Rex Minor
PS
chinese and the japanese are the copying experts and could assistin this task.
Is Germany the efficient country that it is made out to be? We hear daily about how Germans are pissed off at the prospect of bailing out the “lazy” economies of Greece and Spain. But from the comments here, one would think otherwise. And, if hiob and rex minor are what they claim to be, then we have to revise our opinion about the quality of education there. The most stupid and ignorant comments are from the denizens of that place.
@Rex Minor
the suggestion about exchange program with German universities can be beneficial but that can only be done on governmental level.
As far as the Taseer assasination is concerned, you are quite mistaken in saying that Blasphemy Laws were made during the time of Bhutto. I am no expert of constitutional law but I have read enough history to inform you that Blasphemy laws were started during the Zia era and the fact that punishment of blasphemy would only be a death penalty was established by the Nawaz Shareef govt during his first period. You are confusing the Anti-Ahmedi(2nd amendment to the 1973 constitution) law with the blasphemy law(295-C, part of the criminal procedure code).
Abdul
Not sure whether I should be writing this, because you may have a different approach to understanding/solving social problems than I do. But for whatever its worth, and this being an important subject, here it is.
Abdul, Blasphemy ‘laws’ are/were pretty much irrelevant in the assassination of Salman Taseer, and more or less in any other Blasphemy-related assassination.
In fact, strong anti-blasphemy laws may help oppressed minorities in Muslim countries (minorities tbat do not believe in the divinity of Muhammad and the quran, and logically, must possess the right to criticize the man and the book just as anybody would any other man or book). Strong anti-blasphemy laws would clarify what can be or cannot be said about Muhammad or whosoever the protected personality be, and reduce its misuse against oppressed minorities.
Blasphemy-related murders of oppressed minorities by Muslims is as old as Islam itself, and therein lies the problem. Even if we choose to disagree with that, liberals would harm themselves if they deny that Islamic blasphemy-related murders, in our own corner of the world, go back at least to much celebrated and eulogized murders of Pandit Lekh Ram by ahmadis (or, according to them, by their god – take your pick), of Rajpal for writing a fairly benign book (rangeela rasul – you should read it, it is more humorous than insulting – rajpal merely presents information from the hadiths) and continuing to this day in the form of open threats and occasional violent actions.
It is this law, written in the hearts and minds of men and women (Mr Illum-ud-din was a hero to Muslims of all stripes) that Muslims who do not agree with it are up against.
P.S.: Even if for formality’s sake, Muslim liberals should also keep paying their respects to the name of the great shaheed Shahbaz Bhatti who was martyred for appearing to question this silliness.
Best.
@ Abdul:
No I did not mean that you should not ask such a question. But you seem to have a narrow perspective that is evident in your question.
The extremist members of the medical profession that you have met have their counterparts in every profession, and in every school, college and university.
Students from Punjab University were at the forefront in supporting Qadri and even went and offered him roses on Valentine’s Day.
LUMS students and some teachers formed a group to support Qadri.
Lawyers were the first ones to thrown petals on Qadri.
Even people from the entertainment industry are no longer spared of the nonsense.
Bade miyan is hearing a lot of larifari stories and makes comments about the lazy economies and the Germans. There are no lazy economies but lazy people and incompetent leaders. Ofcourse the German tax payers are pissed off, to use the typical UK slang, for being asked to aid the Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, and eventualy Italy and France, who have all had a grand time living on credits for over a decade now. The German Govt. however has always been very generous since they lost the ww1 ww2 and are obliged to aid foreign as well as european countries and grant assyum to Indian and Afghan asylum seekers. Needless to say that while a muslim considers all this help and assistant a normal feature of humanity, for the non believers a doubtful act.
Mother Theresa must have been regarded in India a mad european who spent her life time helping the poor Indian minorities.
Rex maes no claims other than simple observations with the knowledge that communication with asians is not very easy.
@Abdul
BUREAUCRACY comes to life, when Govts or politics are involved. People in a country are the stregnth of a Nation, In a democracy social and education issues are decided with a consens at the community level.
Therefore, a citizen of a country approaches a citizen of another country is in most cases rewarding.
No Govt official can pick and choose the laws he likes or the laws he does not support. How does one improve the common-sense of an individual which he is born with? No education system caters for it. I do not mean to be rude but this blog alone has several contributors who do not get it or dig it. Gen Zia was a lunatic, Mr Bhutto was an erratic personality, Gen Musharaf is a con man, Mr Shareef does not trust anyone and Mr Zardari is a dead loss. This is my opinion based on diagnosing these personalities from several thousans of kilometre distance. All these people should have had competent advisers and this could have made a lot of difference. Western Govts have had similar problem personalities but they kept theselves more or less dry because of having a number of advisers.
Unfortunately, I am one of those who would say that mr Taseer was at fault and it was his political judgment that he did not possess which failed him And all those who died in fighting the American war was equaly the Army’s fault.
Rex Minor
BM,
The quality of German education has indeed deteriorated over time. Read below:
”It is the most satisfying and elevating reading (with the exception of the original text) which is possible in the world; it has been the solace of my life and will be the solace of my death…..”
Is what Schopenhauer wrote about the Upnishads of the unbelievers.
That was then.
AND
“Needless to say that while a muslim considers all this help and assistant a normal feature of humanity, for the non believers a doubtful act….” is of course our learned Rex!
I will leave you with One of our own Yankee quotes:
” The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract….”
( Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr)
@salman arshad
If you had read my first comment, you would have come to know that I am not focusing un-necessarily on the medical community and am willing to write about radicalization of other professions as well, soon enough..
@Kaalchakra
I respect your right to dis-agree and what you are saying is a totally different scenario. For what its worth, I think the blasphemy laws should not be repealed but amended, and adding specifics(as u suggested) may not be the ideal condition. We need to understand that MOST of blasphemy cases were started due to personal feuds/property matters etc and had NOTHING to do with religion..
CO
I wouldn’t call Rex a bigot. He is actually quite respectful and reasonable, given his beliefs. There is an Islamist idea, not too infrequently quoted, which asserts that non-Muslim people and countries allow and sometimes even invite and ‘offer refuge’ to Muslims because allah desires these Muslim refugees to carry Islam to these non-Muslim people and lands. That logically explains why Muslim people and lands never (have to) invite and offer refuge to non-Muslims: Allah’s mission for Muslim people and lands is already complete.
Sounds very weird and regressive – probably even unethical – but being a believer can sometimes mean following a morality that is all one’s own.
BTW, although I have heard only Muslims make that argument (in cases of Australians, Minnesotans, and Thai people offering refuge to Muslims), theoretically, ANY evangelizing people may nurse similar ideas about others.
Kalchakra,
Your assesment proves the second moral superiority of Islam, first being the inbreeding not an ancestual act . AFAIK, it was the same moral intellectual superiority which made Musalman Ghazi burn a huge Indian library in firm belief that all that is to be known is in the Holy Book and all that is not mentioned in Quran not worth knowing. Ancient India had many great libraries which becmae the specific target of the alien origin Ghazi ancestors of Pakistani people.Real spiritual, sicentific, moral knowledge still remain the threat to Islamic imperialism.
Even after islam has ruined mankind (not just the muslim part but also the non-muslim part) the muslims will continue to believe that islam is the best thing that ever hapened to mankind or was given to mankind by the “one and only” god. they will rest in their self-assurance that life after death is all that counts and there the muslims will all be garanteed in heaven and non-muslims all in hell.
Zombies, nutcases, idiots, self-deceivers, machos, duplicitous-pseudomoralists, criminals putting their energies in the service of the arab allah, mental slaves are all gathered under this moon-sick(le) banner. This combination is unreformable and unbreakable.
If any one invited islam and its agents to come into his land then he was a lazy fool or a naive fool. All who got tempted/fooled by islam’s grand promises and became its quislings are the mass which will upkeep this fascism and self-deceit for ever.
The more I read muslim newspapers and websites the more do I get confirmation for this. Slowly I am begining to “enjoy” this downfall and self-destruction of mankind. It supports my contention that the creator god is a sadist and cynic. So many species got eradicated on the earth. Mankind (i.e. humanness) will eradicate itself with the “help” of islam. So be it.
@Abdul
Kalchakra appears to be a reasonable and well educated and well intended person and in my oinion he has a very valid point. Pakistan as an Islamic country does not need legislations to protect Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)or Islam per say Let me quote an example; freedom of speach is protected in the UK, but any one making blasphemic remarks in public against the Queen will be arrested by the police for his own security and is liable to be charged as well for disturbing the peace of the community. I would reckon that Hiob could not survive a day in Pakistan if he were to utter what he says in this blog Never mind whether the blasphemy law is there or not.
Perhaps well intentioned but not thought through, the blasphemy law has done nothing but apparently caused sufferings for non-muslims. This in my view has less to do with Islam but more in line with the caste system. All humans in my humble opinion are born equal and should have the freedom to live as they choose as long as they do not infringe on others rights.
Europe has lived dark period in its history, witch hunting, murdering non believers and infidels and regula ex-communications being announced by the Pope. There is practicaly nothing special about the draconian laws still being practiced in developing countries which the the West has not practiced. A good education in local institutions and a proper leadership could get Paistan from the abyss! Radicalism and terrorisms are nothing more than a diversion.
Rex Minor
Rex Minor,
“freedom of speach is protected in the UK, but any one making blasphemic remarks in public against the Queen will be arrested by the police for his own security and is liable to be charged as well for disturbing the peace of the community.”
Seriously, which planet do you live on? The Queen as well as the Pope get regularly lampooned in the worst way imaginable in respected dailies such as the Independent. I am not sure if any of the editors were locked up for those “offenses.” Don’t speak about things you do not know. The Western civilization stands where it is today because it emphatically **rejected** the “divine” pronouncements. Please don’t make Germany a taliban-esque hell hole. I mean, if what you say is correct, should a woman who has been raped be jailed because she provoked the rapist by wearing a short dress? People like you are the reason why there is a growing fear in Europe about Eurabia and stuff. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
Rex
There is no doubt that a caste-like (or probably even more dangerous) situation exists in Islam (not in your Islam but in Islam as it exists elsewhere) against those minorities who may publicly reject and criticize the various claims of muhammad and quran, and ask other people to abandon their associations with the two.
(Now, it may be totally true that this minority may be completely wrong, and may be headed straight to hell, but that is not the point here – that is a matter of the hereafter).
My contention is that these minority people – whom we may call foolish and wrong – are protected better when the Islamic STATE actively clarifies to them what kind of things they may or may not say about the protected subjects, and affords them a proper and safe opportunity to defend themselves against any allegations.
AFTER, through education as you suggested, or by any other means Muslims may consider best, the situation is changed so that believers and unbelievers may both freely criticize each others’ beliefs and carry out dawah against each other’s beliefs, blasphemy laws can be removed. To put the cart before the horse would be equivalent to throwing the weaker party (unbelievers in this case) to literally to the wolves.
(Once a minority member is killed for blasphemy, it doesn’t matter to him or her whether the killer is punished or celebrated as a ghazi.)
————
In India, laws against the caste system came into play only after the caste system was severely criticized by the best and most respected Hindu (often upper-caste Hindu) minds for a very very long time (even if we see such rejection of the caste system arising with raja rammohan roy – that would make it about 125 years of publicly delegitimating caste system and hauling it over coals). The legal act of making caste-discrimination unconstitutional was finally accompanied by a full frontal (some say, excessive) attack on it by (Hindu-led) Indian government in the text books taught to generations of children and in newspapers and public pronouncements.
Even so, caste-related atrocities continue. Imagine what would have happened had the over 100 year old history of Hindu political and opinion leaders actively and openly fighting against the caste system not existed, and the government had chosen to simply enact anti-discrimination laws.
And Hindus don’t even consider their beliefs protected by any external agency, like allah.
The pattern in Europe was pretty much similar as in India. There too various ‘freedom’ laws were enacted AFTER ideas contrary to them were thoroughly debunked, humiliated and abandoned by their thought-leaders.
————-
The Pakistan of 60s, even of 70s had not been Islamized the way it became n 1980s (granted, your definition of Islamization may differ). However once Islam became more and more important to Pakistanis, the blasphemy law merely became a reflection of the times, a necessity. Sure it is misused. That needs to stop, if possible. But would fewer minority lives have been lost in Pakistan had such a law not been created? I doubt that.
My reading of the situation – which may be wrong – is that this is an issue of ahmadis (for obvious reasons) and some liberals who are comfortable neither with what they think it denotes or what they see as its abuses.
For them, simply expressing collective angst on the Internet, would mean little in practical terms when people are willing to die and kill for such things. Our liberal friends should initiate the long, tough work of convincing the masses that their Islam is the right Islam and not what the masses have traditionally believed.
(In that, although I admire PTH, I have come to believe that Jinnah can play only a very limited role. The issue of beliefs of Islam must be addressed, and that too in the traditional way, not by introducing new messengers, rasuls, nabis, mujaddids, and the rest.)
In the meanwhile, the liberal focus should be on stopping the law from being abused. That is far more doable. It may even pave the way for the eventual removal of blasphemy laws one day (if such restrictions on non-Muslims are really are not an integral aspect of true Islam – and that you would agree, is not so convincingly and publicly established yet).
“For them, simply expressing collective angst on the Internet, would mean little in practical terms when people are willing to die and kill for such things.”
Among the most precious and edifying relationships I have stuck with a few brilliant minds on the Net over these last fifteen years has been with a Muslim liberal turned full-fledged Islamist.
Whenever Muslim liberals would abuse him too much (unfortunately, our ‘liberals’ friends are not above indulging in abuse and personal attacks, once you disagree with them) – he would literally invite the former to come down and fight it out with him on the streets.
That invitation to real-life carried a strong unavoidable message that liberals can’t ignore – if they are serious about whatever they want in real – not just virtual – life.
Kaalchakra
Though I disagee with your general outlook (which is somewhat to the right) but I must concede you show extraordinary incisiveness and intelligence.
Regards
Raza (skeptical)
KC:
“I wouldn’t call Rex a bigot. He is actually quite respectful and reasonable, given his beliefs…….Sounds very weird and regressive – probably even unethical – but being a believer can sometimes mean following a morality that is all one’s own…”
Isn’t that how the fascist and the communist dictatorships of the 20th century justified their actions; as moral and just, based on their own definition of it?
Are you rationalizing hiob’s assertions?
“In India, laws against the caste system came into play only after the caste system was severely criticized by the best and most respected Hindu (often upper-caste Hindu) minds for a very very long time (even if we see such rejection of the caste system arising with raja rammohan roy – that would make it about 125 years of publicly delegitimating caste system and hauling it over coals). The legal act of making caste-discrimination unconstitutional was finally accompanied by a full frontal (some say, excessive) attack on it by (Hindu-led) Indian government in the text books taught to generations of children and in newspapers and public pronouncements.”
Kaalchakra,
That was a very pertinent observation. Muslim liberals of the subcontinent however have two severe limitations. One, Islam is not native to the land the way Hindu traditions and customs are to India. When Rammohon Roy was denouncing sati or the caste system he was doing it as a full fledged Hindu quoting scriptures in redolent Sanskrit. Even so he and many others like him were lampooned and ostracized in every way possible, often receiving physical threat. Still Hindus have had the authority, ownership, for large scale moulding of Hindu traditions, not so with Pakistani Muslims. Unless Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Egypt clear the way, Muslims worldwide are probably helpless. They can probably die commenting on blasphemy law and such but that’s about it. The second handicap with Islam (and other Abrahamic faiths in general) is too much reliance on a single source. Quran, as they say, is unalterable, and all one can do is offer a different interpretation often at significant personal risk. Muslims have faught and killed each other over different way of reading the same lines. Hindu or Buddhist situation otoh is better suited to evolution because of multiple sources, multiple words, often with diametrically opposite views. If there’s one Manusmriti casting cast in stone, there’s the story of Karna proudly proclaiming superiority of deed over birth. This is the other reason Abrahamic faiths have evolved with time only at the cost of bloodshed while more ancient systems such as Hinduism have had a relatively peaceful evolution.
no-communal
The problem of limitation in moulding the religion to modernity might apply to Muslamans living in India and not to Pakistan. With the exception of Baluchis and Pushtuns, almost every Pakistani carry the genes of Arab or Persian father. They are not the converts but the Orginal Musalmans from the time of Holy Prophet on mission to conquer India as needed and demanded by their Godhood. It is not fair to Insult the best created people by God among humankind i.e Pakistani and assign the lesser status of being Ajlaf convert. Rest i agree 400% that Indians are the originator,keeper and inheritor of Indian Mother civilization, a first among humanity, second being Chinese. No other race , culture , society etc have such glorious blessings of not being borrower but the generous giver to all who came to beg,seek, learn or simply survive. The civilizatiobnal pride of Indians, Chinese and to some extent Jewish people is in entirely different leage than the rest minor ikki, dukki low players.
Sachbol,
Shut up.
NC,
What you have written has been said so by different people as a possible reason for what is happening with the Abrahamic faiths. I must say, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this reasoning can only explain things to a small extent. If what is said about Abrahamic faiths is correct, then Judaism would suffer the same fate, which is manifestly not the case. In fact, if a honest comparison were made of all the Abrahamic faiths’ scriptures, one can say without any doubt that the Old Testament is quite gory and non accommodating. That hasn’t had a corrosive effect on Jewish people as a whole. In fact, I would stick my neck out and say that had Israel been in any other place, it would have been a model country. Neither are the Jewish people hamstrung in proposing radical ideas. So, I am not really convinced by this oft-quoted reasoning about the Abrahamic faiths. The fundamental issue has been of power, which has been co-opted by priest or the guardians of faith in the name of religion. That would have happened even if Prophet Muhammad relaxed any of his stringent requirements. Because to gain power in name of religion, you don’t need to use all of the scriptures, but only a part of it that suits your motive. It’s would hardly suit their case to reason their position in an open debate. Hinduism for all its fluid structure was in the iron grip of such custodians of faith. I don’t think they cared too much for the fact that the regressive features were a late addendum or whatever, and, therefore, a withering opposition to Rajaram Mohan Roy. The crucial fact that helped Mohan Roy was the particular time in which he sought to bring about the change. Hinduism in his time was at its nadir. Derided and mocked all over, the so-called custodians had little to offer by way of results. They could have quoted this and that scripture, but all you needed to do was to show them the present condition and compare it with the glories of the past. No doubt he faced opposition but he also had the valuable support of Bentick and a growing realization within the Hindu community of how far below they had fallen. Unfortunately, a by product of the resurrection was a regrettable painting of Muslims for all the ills afflicting the Hindus. This was a sorry by product of the Bengal Renaissance. You may remember that in the golden age of ancient Indian culture, the age of Guptas, the regressive features of Hinduism, i.e., caste system and untouchability were even more strictly observed. A comparable reformation movement was going on within Islam but in a different direction. In addition, Islam was not yet a finished power in India and in World.
Your other point about Hinduism being native to India and hence the reformation was easier can be used to support a diagrammatically opposite view. In fact, one can argue that Muslim liberals had a wonderful tool to fashion their narrative. Since a lot of what passes for Islam is suited to desert Arabia, it would have been a comparative easier task to convince that such notions cannot be enforced in a place that was so different from Arabia. So, I don’t see why Indian Muslims have to look towards Iran or Arabia or whatever. It’s their fault that they have been intellectually lazy.
A reasonable comparison can be made between the reformation movement within Christianity and in Islam. That is a different topic about which I will write my thoughts tomorrow. Just as a gist, the absence of a universal clergy in Islam as compared to Christianity makes the task easier as well as difficult at the same time. The Pope for all his dubious roles performed once crucial task. He provided an important figure against which an opposition could coalesce. Once that wall was broken down, other things followed suit. It was also a particular time that suited that kind of reformation movement. The Turks were stopped at Vienna and it allowed a reasonable time for Christian Europe to start looking within. It did so with the confidence of a secure power. That security is not present within the Islamic states today. They feel besieged from all sides. Reformation in such cases can only happen(as in Hinduism) when you get to the point where there is only one way–the way upwards.
More later…
Bade Miyan,
your understanding of the dynamics of Islam is very poor!
The siege is not the cause of siege mentality among Muslims, but rather it is the other way round, the siege mentality is the cause of the alleged, manufactured or provoked siege of Muslims.
The siege mentality is one of the several tools which helps the Ghazi-Mullah-Mafia trio to rally the Muslim masses around themselves, to consolidate their power, and to justify any of their illegitimate actions.
There are other tools as well like collective culpability in the subjugation of the female; male honor; Allah’s blessing of martial invincibility; racial superiority; comprehensive rejection of all rights of the Kufr – over his land, his wealth, his women, his dignity, and his life! Also any retaliation by others for the uncountable provocations are also sold as injustices on the Muslims committed by others and again acts as another tool to harness the population to serve the interests of the Ghazi-Mullah-Mafia combo! Fear of being accused of being Murtad, of blasphemy, or of apostacy is enough to keep the flock together!
It is foolish to presume that Islam would starts its journey Northwards when it has reached its nadir! No such thing would happen! There is no nadir for Islam! The more desperate and poor the population would get, the more control would the Ghazi-Mullah-Mafia combo be able to exert on the population, making recruitment even easier! The fault for bringing Islam to its nadir would also land at the doorstep of the Kufr!
All the romance and humanism you see in Islam is only the Kufr past of the converts still making its voice heard.
Any Muslim you see is somewhere on the gradient between Islam and Humanism. Any humanism he has, that too he will have to wrap it with Islamic justification, as if it were part of Islam, so that he can hold on to it a bit longer, before Islam creeps up over his soul devouring the little humanism left as well.
You just need to look at the pressure on the Ahmediyyas, the Sufis, the Barelvis, the Shia, etc. in Pakistan from the Wahhabandis to understand that. Islam is devouring all humanism left anywhere. Islam is winning, Humanism is losing!
The children and grandchildren of the “Pakistani Liberals” writing on PTH would probably have walked a lot further up the path of Islam as these “Pakistani Liberals” today!
Raj,
It would be better if you stop addressing me. I don’t want to hear your views. Thanks.
BM
Judaism is different. Jews have been persecuted, kicked around, for so long, all they care for is success in the material world. This is a much stronger force for them than success in the herafter and it has stood them in good stead. But Christianity has had a bloody transformation and so will Islam, one day. But that will not happen, to the extent it counts, unless it’s Saudi Arabia or Iran clearing the way.
I agree with you that Pakistani and Indian Muslims are in a unique situation. They are an intelligent bunch, and carrying the subcontinental inclusive genus, they are ideally suited for carrying out reformation. But while the Muslim world may one day acknowledge the natural intelligence of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (no wonder that the first Muslim science Nobel laureate and the Muslim “bomb” were created in the subcontinent), it’s doubtful they will carry much of religious weight. Just look at the situation with the Ahmedis. I dare say that they represent a synthesis of Arabic Islam with the subcontinental thinking which is naturally suited to temporal evolution by coalescing around new personalities. But this has no effect on Islam worldwide and they will be regarded kufr. Even in Pakistan itself, too many identify Islam with essentially an arabic way of life, and any attempt at reformation or sub-continental fluidity is regarded as pollution from the pre-islamic past. Just look at rex minor. So yes, I do think blashphemy laws etc. cannot be touched upon unless it is first done in the Arabia.
I agree with your point about Bengal Renaissance being largely motivated by the sorry state the Indians found themselves in particularly in comparison to Europeans. But although the Muslims were largely left behind in education and so on, I don’t know how much of it was due to their own lack of motivation in learning alien systems and how much was due to intentional leaving behind. At least Ram Mohan Roy and Vidyasagar were not known to be ambivalent to Islam and the former was a scholar in Persian and Arabic (along with being the emissary of Bahadur Shah Jaffar to the Privy Council). I agree that Hinduism reached its nadir, particularly in Bengal with regards to caste system, kulinism, varna, and jati and the literatti who were interacting with the Europeans felt an intense urge to make changes happen. But importantly they were aided by the multiple theological sources within Hindusim itself. For instance, Vidyasagar prove it with scriptural authority that widow remarriage was allowed in Hinduism.
Now, Islam didn’t have some of these pitfals to begin with, and they were also in power for a very long time. Did they first need to go down to the bottom to start making changes? I feel even then it would probably not be easy, because the wealthy SA and Iran will be at the helm for a very long time. Besides, an acute defensiveness and lack of self-assuredness ingrained in Islam, seen even in its powerful days except perhaps with Akbar and Sher Shah, will probably try to stop it.
Bade Miyan wrote:
“Raj,
It would be better if you stop addressing me. I don’t want to hear your views. Thanks.”
Bade Miyan accepts defeat at the hands of Raj.
What nobility of his mind that he thanks Raj for this!
Seldom that a defeated person is so insightful. That is where he differs from the muslims, inspite of being their valiant defender and favor-seeker.
—
To No Communal
Every attempt to reform islam has led to a strengthening of islamic fascism. Ask yourself why. All good help given (by non-muslims) to muslims ended up in the lap of the islamic street-gangsters to vilify non-muslims even more. The core spirit and intention of the kuran is like that. Read it with a sharp, non-timid, non-manipulable, non-bribable intellect.
@kalchakra
Your name alone is very impressive and particular what it symbolises. It is unfortunate that despite all the superior teachings in Budhism and to a certain extent in Hinduism, it did not get merged with Indian Islam. It is good to see that India is now on the march, having taken several centuries to bar the caste system. During the same period hindu culture definitely influenced Indian muslims and created a multicultural society.
There are two kinds in the world, one who are knowledeable and are still receptive to additional knowledge when it comes their way and there are others who are skeptic by nature and would challenge any info which was not in their domain.
A dialogue with the latter type is very cumbersome to say the least. To slander some one in England and Europe is illegal. The Queen has a special status since she is not permitted to defend any slander, neither in public nor in courts. Mr Mian is the classical example,who has the bloody cheek to question the info I provided as well as my ethnic origin, pouring in a load of Indian crap verbatim. what Mr Mian does not know is that as Indian extreme right is manifested in the orange brigade, in Germany they are called the brown outfits. Even one of the leaders of the ruling christian democratic party raised a slogan in election campaign that kinder stadt Inder( children instead of Indians) encouraging people to have more children so that Indian immigration could be stopped. He lost his Premiership in the elections.
The origin of the word Blasphemy is from latin/greek and not from an arab or Islamic source. It has been more widely used in the so called christian world. Fools are those who brought this evil legislation in Pakistan and fools are those who now practice it and find themselves as impotents to rid the Nation of this evil. Your proposal could have been initiated by the Zardari/gillani duo; no they simply thought of amending the law but then got cold feet and abondoned the plan.
On anothe blog I propsed the annulment of death penalties in Pakistan as is the case in Europe. Though shall not kill is God’s commandment and this should be the stance of every muslim country,
Islam does not require reforms; it is absolute and final and was received by the prophet of God Mohammad(pbuh), reconfirming the scriptures received previously by jews and christians but admonishing them with a course correction. Muslims should also remember that he was the only prophet of God who announced in a publicly held sermon addressing his God that he has completed his mission.
Ofcourse, muslims must unertake the long needed reforms and make corrections and refrain from wrong interpretation of Quraan. This is the call of our times. The process has recently begun in the arab lands and it will take its own course, but reform they must for the world has seen how backward and retarded the masses were forced into by no one other than their own leaders and rulers.
The case of Pakistan is more hopeless since the people of the land have lost touch with the reality and their own so called leaders. The biggest mistake of all was and is to take on the Pashtun folks; those forces have never been defeated or ruled by a foreign force. They have no similarity with the Bengali Nation who were subjected to violence ….., and make use of BADAL(revenge) which Prof Khan mentions in another article; an eye for an eye is the methodology they practice.
Kalchakra, I can only observe and visulize the situation from the outside and with the use of my stomach brain and outline my sincere opinion on the rights or wrongs in the matter. I have given a prognosis once on this blog about their vengence and this has occured. But how can one convince people who regard themseves as the brightest in the world and pooh pooh the ideas of otherswise. The drum beats of Islam without understanding it, relying simply on translations and forefathers traditions is very dangerous and is one of the factors why minoriies are undergoing discrimination and violence. I suspect that a revolution of the kind now occuring in the arab penesula is very likely to reach the shores of Pakistan.
Rex Minor
hiob ji,
the guy however goes around telling other people to shut up! Obviously he feels strongly protective of the Pakistanis in front of other Indians. Very wafahdar indeed!
Somehow he seems to be afraid though that his romantic world-view could come crumbling down if he were to look logic and evidence in the eye!
Rex Minor,
You are just fond of unloading crap. Do you really live in Europe? What law are you talking about? Please enlighten us.
Hiob,
Thanks. You made me laugh. In your previous life, you were, no doubt, a court jester.