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Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

(Written exclusively for PakTeaHouse. Please give credit when crossposting)

The poison of ignorance and extremism that Bhutto and General Zia jointly fathered during their dictatorial regimes has fully indoctrinated even those who otherwise describe themselves as educated.

This week the Large Hadron Collider at the CERN inched closer to the discovery of Higgs Boson or the God Particle as it were. In this extraordinary story of human achievement,  Dr. Abdus Salam is a key player who put Pakistan on the map of theoretical physics. In his homeland though, a group of self-styled champions of Islam have started a posthumous campaign of scurrilous slander claiming that Dr. Salam was giving out nuclear secrets. Forget that even a confirmed bigot like General Zia  held a ceremony in our only nobel prize winner’s honour or that no one ever accused Dr. Salam of any such thing; in Pakistan to be a hero you have to actually transfer technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea.

Now consider the case of 11 year old Sitara Akbar. Every Pakistani and his mother in law are citing her as a crowning national achievement, blissfully oblivious of the fact that she is an Ahmadi. To them her religion is suddenly unimportant or irrelevant or is it? How many Sitara Akbars have been expelled from our schools for being Ahmadi? How many productive citizens of this republic have been killed and maimed for believing differently?

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s National Assembly imagined itself the Islamic equivalent of the Council of Nicea. Just as that ancient bastion of Christian orthodoxy excommunicated unitarian Christians for not believing in the trinity of the father, son and the holy ghost, the National Assembly saw it fit to – primarily at the instigation of the Prime Minister and his law minister- declare an entire sect non-Muslim. Just like the post hoc elevation of the principle of trinity at Nicea, Pakistan’s National Assembly located Islam in the principle of the finality of Prophethood.

This act of our sovereign legislature stood in sharp contrast to the view of this nation’s founding father. On 5 May, 1944, in response to demands of the orthodox vis a vis Ahmadis, Jinnah made it absolutely clear that anyone who professes to be a Muslim is a Muslim and welcome in the Muslim League and that those who were raising the issue were trying to divide the Muslims. Here I am forced to say that I am inclined to accept Jinnah’s view and reject the collective wisdom of our sovereign legislature. There are several reasons which may be cited in this regard:

  1. First and foremost Pakistan is bound by the United Nations’ charter. Therefore Pakistan is bound to ensure freedom of religion for all its citizens and freedom of religion means freedom of religion according to the definition of the subject of the said freedom.
  2. Identity is subjective not objective. The state of Pakistan or any other state cannot tell an Ahmadi that he is not a Muslim because it is intrinsic to the faith of an Ahmadi.  This is an inviolable, inalienable right as part of right to life which every state in the world is bound to protect. If Ahmadis say they are Muslims they ought to be accepted as such.
  3. Pakistan is a signatory to the ICCPR and without reservations since June 2011. Therefore every piece of legislation that discriminates against Ahmadis or forces a label upon them is ultra vires the ICCPR.
  4. The Islamic argument: According to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) anyone who utters the Kalima Shahadah is a Muslim. None of the Kalimas, including the Primary Kalima Shahadah contains any reference to the principle of the finality of Prophethood as understood by the Muslim majority today.
  5. Finally because by conduct and promise, Pakistani state is estopped from claiming otherwise. In 1947, Pakistan laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place, a counter-blast to Sikh claims on Nankana Sahib and Hassan Abdal.  Similarly in 1946 elections which is the basic referendum on the question of Pakistan, Ahmadi votes were instrumental in getting Muslims Pakistan. These are undeniable facts of history.

 

Therefore- fully aware of the stigma attached to this statement- I concur with Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah, thefounding father of Pakistan that Ahmadis are Muslims, if they say they are Muslims and no one, not even the sovereign legislature, has the right to say otherwise.

 




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3,228 Responses to "Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?"

  1. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Here are some instances of the use of the expression of Khatam in the connotation of high, eminent, excellent etc. but not meaning the last:
    STATEMENT:
    1.Abu Tayyub was pronounced Khatamus Shuara. (Introduction to the Divan of Mutanabbi p. 5)
    Q.WAS ABU TAYAB THE LAST POET IN ARAB?

    2.Hazrat Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was Khatamul Aulia. (Tafseer Safi, Surah Ahzab)
    Q.WAS HAZRAT ALI(A.S) THE LAST SAINT OF GOD TO COME IN THIS WORLD?

    3.Hazrat Imam Shafai was Khatamul Aulia. (At Tuhfatus Sunnia, p. 45)
    Shaikh Ibn Arabi was Khatamul Aulia. (Title page of Fatuhat Makkiyyah)
    Shah Abdul Aziz was Khatamul Muhaddaseen Wal Mufassireen. (Hadyatis Shia, p.7)
    Q.IF HE WAS THE LAST SAINT OF ALLAH, THEN WHY WAS SAME TITLE GIVEN TO HARAT ALI (A.S)?

    Maulvi Anwar Shah Sahib Kashmiri was Khatamul Muhaddaseen. (Raisul Ahrar, p. 99)
    Q.WAS HE THE LAST MUHADDAS TO COME IN THIS WORLD?

    Habib Shirazi is considered Khatumushuara in Iran. (Hayate Saadi, p.87)
    Q.IF HE WAS Khatumushara then what was ABU TAYAB?

    Imam Suyuti was Khatamul Muhaddaseen. (Hadyatis Shia, p.210)
    2.IF HE WAS THE MUHADDAS, THEN WHY WAS MAULVI ANWAR SHAH SAHAB GIVEN THE SAME TITLE?

    Hazrat Ali was Khatamul Auwsia. (Minar-ul Huda, p. 106)

    Maulvi Muhammad Qasim was Khatamul Muffasireen. (Asrar-e-Qurani, title page)
    Q.WAS Maulvi Muhammad Qasim , last mauffassar to come, what about all the others who came after him?

  2. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ mahee

    Nobody wants to know the interpretation of Khatm by your own and favorite Mullahs. Quote from Arabic dictionaries to which the word belongs.
    .

    My own interpretation of KHATM is …..
    MAHEE IS THE LAST SON OF HIS PARENTS WHICH MEANS HIS PARENTS DID NOT OR WOULD NOT HAVE ANY CHILD AFTER HIM. BUT SOMEHOW MAHEE WAS BORN REGARDLESS OF THAT IMPOSSIBILITY. WHAT WOULD THEN MAHEE BE KNOWN AS???? IT WAS THE SAME STORY WITH MIRJA GHULLA OF QADIAN……HE WOULD ALSO BE KNOWN AS THE SAME KINDA CHILD AS MAHEE WOULD BE. SIMPLE ENOUGH!! KHATM SHUUD!!

  3. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ mahee
    It’s NO threat. Let me have your true name and address as I want to see you to benefit from your ‘religious knowledge”. I admit I am not a Mullah nor a religious scholar but am still better than you because I believe in commonsense and say what i believe to be true and bereft of the fraud of ugly indoctrination which you are obsessed of
    Coward or no coward, let’s ,meet together and debate.

  4. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ tajender

    very nice verse…perhaps written by Akber allahbadi?

    Bolay ke tumpe deen ki islah ferz hai
    maien chal diya yeh kehke ke aadab arz ha

    .

    Bolay ke tumpe deen ki bipta bhi ferz hai
    main chal diya yeh kehke ke ke mirja ki garz hae!!

  5. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    hum aisee sab kitabein qabile zabtee samjhte hain,
    kee jinko padh ke bete baap ko khaptee samajhte hain.
    .
    Jawab aan ghazal!
    hum aisee kam naseeboan ko qabile laanat samjhte hain,
    Jo Mirza ghulla of Qadian ko apna frofet samajhte hain.

  6. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ mahee

    As you have shown your desire for a speedy trial how about coming to Saudia Arabia for a quick shot??? Believe me you won’t even feel the pain of the swipe…..of their super steel sword!!

  7. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ all MIRJAI DEVIATES
    .

    MIRJA GHULLA OF QADIAN HAD A TERRIBLE DEATH AND PASSED AWAY IN THE LATRINE…
    EVEN THE BIBLE SAYS THAT A PROPHET WILL DIE NATURAL DEATH…. BUT THE STORY WITH MIRJA IS A DIFFERENT THING!! HERE!
    /

    MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:

    Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

    “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”

    The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

    If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
    Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
    fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

    However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

    i)

    Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

    [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

    ii)
    Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

    iii)
    Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

    Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

    Words in the mouth:

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

    “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”

    [Deuteronomy 18:18]

    iv)
    Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36).

    v)
    Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
    people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, “He came unto his own, but his own received him not.”

    iv)
    Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

  8. Syed United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    AKB has an obsession with the Urdu usage of “khatam”. Now, if I were to say “AKB par pagalpan khatam hai”, the statement would factually be correct, but would still be in Urdu. The Quran, as AKB would presumably know, is in Arabic. In the Arabic language, the word “khaatam” has two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication
    2. the Ring worn on one’s finger
    “Nabiyyeen” is the plural of “Nabi”, which means “prophet”. Hence, “nabiyyeen” means “prophets”. “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen” will therefore, have two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication of the prophets
    2. the Ring of the prophets
    Ahmadi Muslims believe in both these meanings.

  9. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ ALL MIRJAI DEVIATES AND MURTEDS
    .
    MIRJA GULLA OF QADIAN—-a British-engineered false prophet
    ;
    Thirty False Prophets

    The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “The Hour will not begin until thirty Dajjals have appeared, each of them claiming that he is the Messenger of Allah.” [Sunan Abu Dawud]

    The term “dajjal” means deceiver and is used here to mean an evil liar. The Dajjal who is the False Messiah (Al-Masih ad-Dajjal, the Anti-Christ) is the “Great Dajjal” who will claim to be Allah. Prior to his appearance there will be many lesser dajjals/deceivers.

    Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) is the final Messenger of Allah. Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) told us in the Quran that Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) is the last of the prophets to be sent by Him. This hadith informs us that there will be at least thirty people falsely claiming to be prophets after Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam).

    Some of the false prophets in the time closely following that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) were Musaylimah al-Kaddhab, Aswad al-Ansi, Sajah al-Kahena, and Tulayhah al-Azdi. Some of the more recent claimants to prophethood are Mirza Hussein Ali Nuri (who called himself Bahaullah), Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani, Elijah Muhammad, and Kareem Agha Khan.

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian was a British-engineered false prophet to quell resistance against their colonisation of India. Mirza simultaneously claimed to be Eesa (alaihis salam), the Mahdi, a Prophet, a Messenger, and the second advent of Prophet Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam).

    An interesting episode engineered by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave the lie to his own claims. He invited his fiercest opponent, Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari, to a prayer duel. He advertised his supplication to Allah, pleading to Him to annihilate the liar amongst the two, in the lifetime of the truthful one, either by cholera or by plague. Mirza himself subsequently died of cholera a year later.

  10. Syed United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB
    //…The term “dajjal” means deceiver and is used here to mean an evil liar…//
    This great prophecy of the Prophet Muhammad has been perfectly fulfilled in your person. By the way, don’t you ever get tired of telling lies? And for how long do you plan to keep on missing your appointment with the psychiatrist?

  11. Khan United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB
    //…hum aisee kam naseeboan ko qabile laanat samjhte hain…//
    In this regard, may I convey to you the glad tindings of the Quran, exclusively in your favour, which run as follows:
    “laanatullahi alal kaazibeen”,
    meaning “Allah’s curse be on the liars” – Amen.

  12. Kashif United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @Syed (December 5, 2012 at 1:11 am)

    //…..AKB has an obsession with the Urdu usage of “khatam”. Now, if I were to say “AKB par pagalpan khatam hai”, the statement would factually be correct, but would still be in Urdu. The Quran, as AKB would presumably know, is in Arabic. In the Arabic language, the word “khaatam” has two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication
    2. the Ring worn on one’s finger
    “Nabiyyeen” is the plural of “Nabi”, which means “prophet”. Hence, “nabiyyeen” means “prophets”. “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen” will therefore, have two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication of the prophets
    2. the Ring of the prophets
    Ahmadi Muslims believe in both these meanings…..//

  13. Kashif United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @Syed (December 5, 2012 at 1:11 am)

    //…..AKB has an obsession with the Urdu usage of “khatam”. Now, if I were to say “AKB par pagalpan khatam hai”, the statement would factually be correct, but would still be in Urdu. The Quran, as AKB would presumably know, is in Arabic. In the Arabic language, the word “khaatam” has two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication
    2. the Ring worn on one’s finger
    “Nabiyyeen” is the plural of “Nabi”, which means “prophet”. Hence, “nabiyyeen” means “prophets”. “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen” will therefore, have two meanings:
    1. the Seal of authentication of the prophets
    2. the Ring of the prophets
    Ahmadi Muslims believe in both these meanings…..//

    .

    Thank you Syed for that wonderful post. This indeed, is the true glory of our beloved Prophet Muhammad. As “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen”, he was the very Seal that authenticates other prophets of God. As “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen”, he was also the Jewel of the Prophets and this is what the meaning “Ring” clearly indicates.

    Allaahumma salli alaa Muhammad.

  14. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ khan
    Imitating Muslims won’t get you anywhere….use something from your faux frofet mirja ghulla to cuss all others..
    this line if for you, the adjudged apostates and liarslaanatullahi alal kaazibeen”,
    meaning “Allah’s curse be on the liars” – Amen.

  15. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    akb,

    Be parda kal jo aain nazar chand bebiyan
    Akbar zamein may ghairat-e-kaomi se garh gaya

    Pooncha jo unse aapka parda kahan gaya

    Kehne lageen ke akal pe mardon ke parh gaya

  16. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Mansokhi, Insidad, Khatma منسوخی٬ انسداد٬ خاتمہ الإلغاء :: الإبطال :: القضاء على
    خاتم ٬ مختتم ٬ ختم کرنے والا طرف
    Khatma, Akhtamam خاتمہ٬ اختتام الإنتهاء
    مرصع ساز ٬ خاتم کار ٬ پچی کار المبطّن
    Khatma Taqreer خاتمہ تقریر الخطبة المنمّقة
    Khatma, Imtanae خاتمہ٬ امتناع الإخماد
    Khatma Karna خاتمہ کرنا

  17. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @Syed/kashif

    THE PHOENIX FROFET OF QADIAN INDIA!!
    .
    the dictionary meaning of ‘khatm’ is final,
    end, last, finish, khalaas!
    look up for the meaning of this word in any dictionary
    and i hope you will consider to give up your
    wrong thoughts. Mirja Ghulla fantasized that
    prophethood was like Phoenix,
    that he
    was like a new Phoenix frofet emerging from ashes!!

    This could be a mythological doctrine but not religion.
    Then the meaning of any word, if taken specially,
    clearly reflects doubt and mischief. You can take
    advice from YLH who is a lawyer and knows that
    the nearest definition of a word is always taken
    as its meaning. YLH would surely tell you as he
    must have gone through the
    General Clauses Act…of any country.
    Special and remote connotations, definitions
    and interpretation of any word
    including Khatm or Khatim are not taken as true ground for asserting the meaning unless there is some
    mischief behind it.

  18. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Allah does not have any favorites. Allah likes all his prophets same.

    Any verse that says otherwise is a corrupted verse and must be crossed out of Quran.

  19. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Lets not limit Allah by Quran. Quran can be wrong by Allah can never be wrong.

  20. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    *but

  21. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @akb,
    “”"”////****It’s NO threat. Let me have your true name and address as I want to see you to benefit from your ‘religious knowledge”. I admit I am not a Mullah nor a religious scholar but am still better than you because I believe in commonsense and say what i believe to be true and bereft of the fraud of ugly indoctrination which you are obsessed of
    Coward or no coward, let’s ,meet together and debate////***”"”".

    firstly, i am not afraid of your threats, im serious when i recited surah e kafirun for you!you could not answer some of the basic answers that ahmadis have asked time and again it will not be wrong for me compile all the meaningful questions, i and various other ahmadis have asked you at various times. for example
    Q.when i asked you about “istikhara” you said its meaningless and obsolete even though in every real muslims life asking for God’s will has been of pivotal importance?Again i should have kept in mind only “real muslim” before asking you for it?? and i will quote you below to tell every body here the absurdity in your arguments you sir donot believe in the institution of istikhara but then you say to about ////”KASHFS” aray charya mahee kashf tou har aam aadmi ko bhi aatay hain”/// ???
    so akb did you or did you not say this to me? should i show you the proof!and do you realize kashf is a much intense form of istikhara?so if istikhara is old how is it,s much intense form so readily available nowadays???

    2 when you were asked about what The Holy Prophet said: “Ana aakhir ul anbiyaa wa masjidee haza akhir ul masaajid” [Bukhari].
    he tradition clearly says ‘ana’ I or me ”aakhir ul anbiyn” Last of the Prophets, ‘wa’ and ‘haza’ means this ‘akhirul masaajid” which means ”the last of mosques (built by me!!))
    why did you or your arabs grands, assume ((((built by me))) it by your ownself !!! is it commom sense to assume words of prophet??is it..when you love to translate every thing word by word including the urdu meaning of word khatam,(which is end in urdu) so why not doing the same for above hadees!WHY ASSUME????
    3.YOU HAVEN,T BEEN ABLE TO reproduce anything solid ,concrete as to how Mirza Sahab died, yet you keep on babblibg that his was an accursed death, accursed death!it canot be written in unauthentic anti qadiani literature!its a cheap move on your part to qoute them!and if you have a real testifier who can testify that he saw it by his own eye,then bring his words!are you afraid you wont find any, yes you are right about that , you WONT! just like maulvis, kept the entire nation in dark, from what happened in the parliament in 1974!well i say that i,ve heard that Maulvis badly lost the debate with Mirza Nasir in front of entire parliament!but you wont believe me yet i happen to be true but the reality of what happened there is not on record , so i dont babble about it again and again like you making baseless statements!
    4.talking about baseless state ments whatever you quote from MIRZA GHULAM AHMED’S books to malign his name, came out to be the worse of all lies
    for example “On the contrary Mirja condemned everyone…..and you will note that when Allama Iqbal discovered the initial motives of Mirja from his debates with Christians and Hindus he stepped out of the Kashmir Committee”"
    Now let me give you an un ,biased”websites remarks on what really happenned? i quote a few highlights of the article on kashmir committe from wikipedia
    “”"”All India Kashmir Committee was set up by prominent Muslim leaders of India on July 25, 1931. Dr. Muhammad Iqbal, an eminent Kashmiri and a number of other leaders were invited by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad to form the committee. Although orthodox press and historians attribute the formation of the Committee to Dr. Muhammad Iqbal”"”
    it further says “From the very beginning of his rule, in 1840s Maharajah Gulab Singh imposed a body of the harshest regulations upon the people of Kashmir and reduced them in effect to a state of humiliating bondage. Even grass, growing free, on which the people were wont to pasture their cattle was subjected to a heavy tax.**Ahmadis belonging to Lahore faction of the movement were very active in educational and political awakening of Kashmiri Muslims throughout 1920, 30s and 40s. Abdulla Vakil and Nooruddin Qari Kashmiri were instrumental in propagating Islamic literature among the Muslim population of the state which included religious folk poetry and more complex religious discourses.[1] This revival of Muslim identity was of great concern to the ruling elite in Kashmir. On 13 July 1931, the situation became so critical the then Maharajah resorted to brutal force and seventy two Kashmiris were killed and hundreds wounded. Mirza Basheer-ud Din Mahmood Ahmad, the Head of Ahmadiyya Muslim community, was very aware of the situation as he visited the state in 1929 and observed the plight of the people living there. He invited on July 25, 1931 a dozens or so leading Muslims and he stressed upon them that some thing should be done to tell the helpless Kashmiris that there are people in India who are mindful of their lot. The committee was met with severe criticism by Indian National Congress and nationalist Hindu press.**During this period, an orthodox Islamic religious party under the name of Ahrars (Free) came into being, freely funded by Indian Congress party. They started agitation against Mirza Basheerud Deen Mamood, as he was the leader of a sect of Islam at odds with the Ahrar ideology.
    He resigned from Presidency of the Kashmir Committee as a number of members in the Committee had their own doubts after the agitations. Dr. Iqbal was elected the president after him, but 20 June 1932, he also resigned from the Presidentship of the All India Kashmir Committee.
    Due to internal dissent among different leaders of the committee and external influence of Ahrar, the All-India Kashmir committee ceased to exist within a few years of its conception***////**

    so akb, do you read the words this unbiased website has used **orthodox press and historians,******, an orthodox Islamic religious party under the name of Ahrars (Free) came into being, freely funded by Indian Congress party.”"”
    so ask yourself is your baseless statement making any sense??

    5.you wrote”"“Three grandmothers of Hazrat Eisa were FORNICATORS and PROSTITUTES, from whose blood the body of Jesus came into being.” (Roohani Khazain 11 p.291)”"”
    the complete line which you totally missed from the reference page number you,ve given akb sir is that”"”in bible it is written three grandmothers of Hazrat Eisa were FORNICATORS and PROSTITUTES, from whose blood the body of Jesus came into being, but we ahmadis totally disagree with it”"
    so akb, the great how can you miss the most important words of the same sentence you are quoting!!
    ask YOURSELF DO YOU MAKE ANY SENSE/ AND ASK YOURSELF ARE YOU READY FOR DEBATE??
    I WOULD DEBATE WITH YOU ANY TIME, BUT I TOLD YOU BEFORE AND I TELL YOU NOW?? I WILL NOT TALK WITH A TREACHEROUS , DISHONEST PERSON??
    ////***MUNAFIQS, ARE WORSE THAN KAFIRS??//////***

  22. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    AKB, SIR LETS GET MORE FACT RIGHT.Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed a.s of qadian invited all religious scholars , of india to a mubahala as you already know is perfectly according to sunnah of Holy Prophet s.a.w.A mubahla is a duel between two individuals who through their prayers invoke curse upon the liar from among the two.When Hazrat SAHIB INVITED Maulvi Sanaullah sahib to this duel, he proposed a condition which was that the liar among the two should meet his end during the lifetime of who is truthful.since it was evident that such a condition could not possibly be pressed upon anyone ,Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahab left the choice of determinig the criterion of truth to maulvi Sanaullah sahib.hazrat Ghulam Ahmed personnlly wrote a letter to maulvi sanaullah sahib,that if he was reluctant to accept the condition laid down by Hazrat Sahib he is free to propose alternate condition. Hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed a.s declared as a prophesy that GOD would decide the matter according to the conditions laid down by Maulvi Sahib.Maulvi Sanaullah sahib disagreed by the condition proposed Mirza Sahab and as counter argument stated that the HOLY PROPHET , who was the truthful died during the life of musailma KAZAB who was the liar.Basing his own condition of truthfulness upon musailma ,maulvi sanaullah declared that he would accept the mubahala on the term that liar should outlive the truthfull.Now let us not forget that hazrat mirza sahib had in advance foretold that ALLAH would decide the outcome of mubahala according to condition acceptable by maulvi sanaullah sahib .And so it happened. hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed according to the condition laid down by maulvi sanaullah emerged as the truthfull party by passing away from this world.mualvi sanaullah amritsari according to the standrads set by himself,emerged as the liar who outlived the truthfull just as Musailma the liar oulived the truthfull.

  23. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    in arabic for every thing, there are almost,80 words, you can ask any, arab literate about that!arabic is a very vast language, it has more vocabulary then any of the common languages we use! and for one word there are many meanings in it consequently!there is alot of deepness in this language, one reason why GOD chose it over all other languages for revealing Quran.
    for instance the word “HARAM” HAS TWO VERY OPPOSITE MEANINGS
    one haram means forbidden, and one haraam means very pure.Like pig meat is haraam, and MASJID E HARAM is a very sacred place.and im sure there are various other meanings for haraam.
    hence forth the word KHATAM in arabic, meaning is not just the urdu one, it has a variety of meanings.
    i quote HOLY QURAN To explain one of its meaning “KHATAMALLAHU ALLAH QULOOBIHIM WA ALA SAM I HIM,WA ALA ABSAARIHIM”
    TRANSLATED AS ” ALLAH HAS SEALED THEIR HEARTS, SO THEY CANNOT HEAR, AAND THEY CANNOT SEE”
    THEREFORE MY brain tells me to accept the word seal for khatam as the most appropriate one, because in quran it is used in this way.
    ROOT word KHATAMA ,means “he endorsed” or “he sealed”. KHATIM is the who seals.In the caliphate of HAZRAT UMAR(r.a.z) he developed the postal system so much, that there was entire department for sealing documents and that department was called “SHAUBA E KHUTAMA” .
    Hazrat Muhammed (s.a.w) titled his beloved uncle, Hazrat Abbas (r.a.z) as KHATAM UL MUHAJIREEN, he seals all muhajirs and not he is the last muhajir! because if it means the last muhajir then what did the afghan refugees in pakistan did , what did pakistani muslim did after independence from india to pakistan? What is the United Nation Humanrights Committe FOR Refugees (UNHCR) doing , when nothing like migration had to take place after HAZRAT ABBAS!!

  24. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    khatam ul zauj, a very common term in arabian countries for , wedding ring!
    khatam being used as ring here!

  25. sta Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB
    Goofy ! Can’t you see that “mahee” is not presenting any “interpretations”. The quoted examples are all authentic, accepted and well-known usages of the term “khaatam”. In all the cases quoted above by “mahee”, we see that “khaatam” is used in the sense of “the greatest”. This meaning of the term “khaatam” is perfectly valid and in use in Arabic. Accordingly, “Khaatam-un-Nabiyyeen” should be translated as “the Greatest of the Prophets”. It seems, you have a problem with accepting the Holy Prophet Muhammad as the Greatest of the Prophets.

  26. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    funny!!

  27. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ To all Mirzai deviates

    .

    Funny! The dictionary meaning of the word ‘khatm’ or khatim or khatam clearly confirms the meaning of these words without adding any
    fancy attribute to it. If the Mirjai’s have any dictionary source either from an independent dictionary source they must post failing which they would be deemed to have lost the debate.
    I have quoted the meaning of these words as stated in dictionaries as well as from the understanding which everyone has about them.
    It is wrong to attribute a far flung meaning to a word to
    defend one’s false assertion. YLH clearly knows this as a lawer and understands that the use of special clauses or words is shunned even by courts …all courts of law as well as common sense. The mirjai mulla’s
    should consider this fact and mend their ways unless they want to be known as the Khatimul insaneeyat!

  28. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ mahee
    Bad news for the Mirjai deviates……
    this is the eternal condemnation the Mirjai heretics have earned so far…
    https://twitter.com/KhadimAhmadiyya/status/274902997241307136/photo/1

  29. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ mahee/sta
    You said your Mirja ghulla of Qadian opined that any religion was dead
    if it didn’t have a living prophet, Right? In other words all the great
    religions of the world such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism,
    Hinduism, etc are DEAD languages because none of them has
    an extant prophet among them. How do you explain that??
    Note:: I don’t read your copy paste stuff nor want you to quote from biased sources such as your own..
    I want explanation from whatever horse sense that may still be left in your misled brain…

  30. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    correction:: read ‘religions’ instead of ‘languages’ in my above post

    sorry this due to hangover…and envisioning the bleak future of Mirjais’s
    and their evil doctrine

  31. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ mahee/sta/khan/kashif and other mirjaees’s

    I know what Arabic is. All words in Arabic a three letter base word to start with. In Mirja ghulla;s case we have the word “khatm’ which is a three letter word. All words formed from it are meant to convey variations of the same and may have some remote meaning. But is it fair to adopt the remotest meaning rather than the immediate and unambiguous one?? No. The problem with you is that you create controversy over this word by attributing to it a remote meaning …..which is wrong
    and not acceptable not only to Muslims but scholars of othr
    comparative religions as well. For example you can study Prof Arberry, Pickthall, etc and even the anti Islam scholar Stubbe.
    No where have they endorsed the connotation your Mirja Ghulla
    gave to this word and the intention behind every ‘special’ connotation is doubtful and not tenable at any forum.
    Even a plain Hindu knows what Khatm means. They also say khatm shud or finish or khalaas…which means end , final, severance…
    I gave you an analogy of a parents last child. How could then they have
    another ‘last’ child unless the mother was adulterous??
    I would not say this about Charag bibi…but leave it for you
    to review your thoughts and debate from your own sense rather than post long chapters from the vile indoctrination that you are made a victim of. Also, If a new living prophet was the symbol of a living religion then having none extant all the religions of the world would
    be DEAD LANGUAGES by your rule unless Mirja Ghulla sprang as a Phoenix
    frofet from the ashes!! If this is the case then Mirzai’s are not only enemies of Islam or Pakistan but enemies of the entire human race which
    has different beliefs and faiths.

  32. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Well, AKB, one can reasonably argue that the last child is the one that lasts, and once a child finishes lasting, then another last child begins to last, and so on.

    This argument can be asserted to be as good as any other, and can be suitably buttressed with necessary signs and proofs from Allah. My only problem would be we would not be able to tell such an Allah from any old human fraud, which would be a problem if we decide to worship such an Allah.

    That could be the reason why probably Iqbal saw clearly what seems to me to be the case with Ahmadis as well – the Ahmadi Allah is simply not the Allah of Islam, nor the Quran of Ahmadis, the Holy Quran that brings the message of Islam.

    Ahmadis do have a right to insist that their Quran is the true one and that their Allah alone is to be worshiped, not the Allah of Muslims; and Muslims, to reject those claims.

    These perspectives are so different that if one is true then the other is indeed dead and untrue. Non-Muslims who support Ahmadis grasp that. There is really no way around that problem.

  33. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ KALA CHAKRA
    i guess you have interpreted ‘last’ by Hindu standards. Muslims do not believe in ‘awagon’ or the reincarnation theory. I don’t understand how
    a new profet could spring up like a pheonix from ashes?? If that was possible therre would have been a million frofets today!!
    /
    as you can see the Mirjzai interpretation of the word last or final is solely based on assumptions ….such as dreams , visions , Norstradamical professies ets…..as if Mirja was a fortune teller. I think Hindu are better at astrology than Muslims….but none of them claims to be a prophet. Then you can also notice that the Mirjai’s played with words and wasteful arguments with all …hindus , muslim and christians. The problem with them is that they are imposters and imitators of Islamic tenets and practices which is not acceptable to Muslims of any or all sects together. Moreover they have been officially adjudged by the state as non muslims warned to refrain from
    mimicking Muslim tenets or practices. Corruption of any sorts is not acceptable and this is why the Mirjai;s remain pariahs. You must have also noticed that the Mirjai cult is always ready to carp at you if you try to speak up….and most of the guys here are Mirjai’s ..
    onto an organized campaign against Muslims and Pakistan passing off as Muslims . It is not acceptable to call all Muslims other than Mirjai’s as kafirs…that is atrocious and look at the language Mirja ghulla used
    against others calling them ‘children of prostitutes”!!
    At least a sane and sensible person would never utter such filthy words
    ……..those are vile and criminally provocotive and attract rebuttal in the same tone!!

  34. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ kc

    this ”Well, AKB, one can reasonably argue that the last child is the one that lasts, and once a child finishes lasting, then another last child begins to last, and so on.

    This argument can be asserted to be as good as any other, and can be suitably buttressed with necessary signs and proofs from Allah. My only problem would be we would not be able to tell such an Allah from any old human fraud, which would be a problem if we decide to worship such an Allah.”
    is interesting but where the heck is mirja ghulla lasting now??
    there is no living prophet so is Mirjaism not dead?? Now don’t mention khalifa’s they are toadies and mullah’s worse than salafi’s

    .
    Being a theist and atheist is another discussion…and beside the issue..if someone does not believe in Allah ie God it is his
    prerogative ….but corrupting the Quran and imitating it to establish one’s own false status is blasphemous

  35. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “hindu standards”

    That is exactly what happened. Mr Ahmad of Quadian began on the right foot. He started off his rhetorical career fighting Christians and Hindus. Unfortunately, owing probably to his highly emotional constitution, he so personalized his little skirmishes with individuals that in order to win his personal battles, he overstepped sacred boundaries and forgot the distinction between half-baked Hindu and Christian doctrines and Islam.

    Amazingly, from his experiences, Mr Ahmad seems to have became totally convinced that Islam was not a religion that a modern man or woman could follow. So profoundly unsettled was his state of mind that he really thought he was ‘saving’ Islam by abandoning it in favor of Hindu and Christian thought which he said were real Islam.

    Of my many years of interactions with Ahmadi friends, one particular episode stands out – wherein a rather cerebral Ahmadi gentleman, having exhausted all other arguments, retorted that he was going to ‘save Islam’ at all costs.

    Even at that time, that claim sounded very odd to me. It made no sense for an ordinary mortal to actually take on the clear role of Allah. Until, of course, much later when one learned quite a bit more and realized that the gentleman’s peculiar Allah and religion were very different from those of Islam.

  36. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @KC
    Enough of this Mirjai bak bak….wonder if quantum theory could help out the Mirjai’s to solve their problem?
    .
    you might be interested to read this interesting story..enjoy

    Quantum physicists see reality as something that is more fluid than solid and has infinite potential. The word “potential” is very important in quantum physics. Quantum physicists understand that the deeper they study the quantum realm, the laws of nature become more impact, and nature itself becomes more intelligent and aware. They called this fundamental quantum reality as the Unified Field. According to quantum physics, the Unified Field is self aware and highly intelligent. This Unified Field is the “mind of Creation (God).”
    http://energyfanatics.com/2012/12/04/quantum-reality-exploring-universe-beyond-material-realm/

  37. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ KC

    here is another one that may be of interest to you as it reflects on Hinduism…Karma and Reincarnation, etching.
    .
    ”Coming Back relies on the Bhagavad Gita, a text written 2,200-2,500 years ago, for scientific proof of reincarnation. As a yoga instructor, I’ve turned to the Gita for metaphorical inspiration during various life challenges. Yet I’d never treat a scrape on my leg by sticking leeches on it, or by poking a hole in my skull. Why exactly we think allegorical tales penned millennia ago can be used today as scientific evidence is nonsensical, especially one based on an idea—karma—that was utilized by the wealthy Brahmanic class to oppress lower castes in claiming it was their birthright to be poor and uneducated.”

    http://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/the-science-of-reincarnation?utm_source=Big+Think+Weekly+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=50c723c0e8-_Here_s_What_s_New_at_Big_Think12_5_2012&utm_medium=email

  38. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    MIRZAI’S ARE NON MUSLIMS AND ENEMIES OF PAKISTAN!
    ;
    Jinnah warns minorities….lays condition of allegiance and loyalty to Pakistan and the majority!! but the Mirjai lot flouts the will of the majority and the writ of the government, hence by no figment of thought they could be termed otherwise than ENEMIES OF PAKISTAN AND DEVIATE NON MUSLIMS!
    .
    ”Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. ”

    .

    Reply to the Address presented by a Deputation of the members of the Quetta Parsi Community on 13th June, 1948

  39. Khan United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB

    One last advice for you:

    Stop lying. The truth shall set you free.

  40. Dark Knight Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB (December 5, 2012 at 8:26 pm)
    //…..funny!!…..//

    After exhibitionistically exposing your idiocy to everybody at PTH, you exclaim, “funny”. Funny indeed. This is one point, I have to agree with you on.

  41. sta Pakistan Chrome for iOS iPad says:

    @AKB

    Your psychiatrist wanted to know about your whereabouts.

  42. Syed United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @AKB

    The one skill with which you are generously blessed, is the skill of lying shamelessly.

  43. akb Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ ALL MIRZAI WOLVES HERE

    TELL ME WHERE HAVE I LIED?? YOU MIRZAI;S HAVE LOST THE DEBATE!!

    /
    ANY HINDU. CHRISTIAN OR SIKH HERE WHO WOULD LIKE TO BE THE UMPIRE????

  44. akb Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    MIRZAI’S ARE WARNED TO FOLLOW THE ADMONITION OF JINNAH AND STOP DEFYING PAKISTAN , ITS LAWS AND CONSTITUTION FOR THEIR OWN GOOD!! IF THEY DON’T PAKISTAN SHALL NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTS/

    .
    JINNAH’S WARNING TO MIRZAI’S AND MINORITIES !!!!!
    MIRZAI’S ARE NON MUSLIMS AND ENEMIES OF PAKISTAN!
    ;
    Jinnah warns minorities….lays condition of allegiance and loyalty to Pakistan and the majority!! but the Mirjai lot flouts the will of the majority and the writ of the government, hence by no figment of thought they could be termed otherwise than ENEMIES OF PAKISTAN AND DEVIATE NON MUSLIMS!
    .
    ”Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. ”

    .

    Reply to the Address presented by a Deputation of the members of the Quetta Parsi Community on 13th June, 1948

  45. a,k.b Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    Jinnah warns minorities….lays condition of allegiance and loyalty to Pakistan and the majority!!
    .
    ”Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. ”

    ”I reiterate that you, like any other minorities, will be treated as equal citizens with all your rights and obligations so long as you are loyal to Pakistan. I am glad and it is very refreshing that you have not gone on with the same old rut and the hackneyed phrases which are echoed in various quarters about the grievances and requests of minorities, but I must tell you that these assurances have been given and they are going to be implemented. Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. Then you will help me and you will facilitate my task in carrying out the policy which we have laid down. You know you must dispel suspicion and distrust. It is now up to minorities to show by actions and deeds that they are true Pakistanis and dispel suspicion and distrust that has been created by deplorable and disgraceful events that have taken place.”
    CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF BALUCHISTAN
    Reply to the Address presented by a Deputation of the members of the Quetta Parsi Community on 13th June, 1948

  46. Kashif United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @AKB

    A good anxiolytic, a 2000V shock to your empty reverberating cranium and a good laxative is what you need.

  47. a,k.b Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ kashif mirzai deviate

    come to the point and don’t whine….nobody will like your deranged pukings!!
    You are clearly doomed,,Jinnah said it not me!!

  48. a,k.b Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ kashif deviate mirzai

    you are lost!! you need some strong medicine or surgery to level up your infested brain!!
    JINNAH SAID THIS AND YOU WANTED TO FOLLOW JINNAH,,,,NOW FOLLOW HIM!!

    .
    Jinnah warns minorities….lays condition of allegiance and loyalty to Pakistan and the majority!!
    .
    ”Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. ”

    ”I reiterate that you, like any other minorities, will be treated as equal citizens with all your rights and obligations so long as you are loyal to Pakistan. I am glad and it is very refreshing that you have not gone on with the same old rut and the hackneyed phrases which are echoed in various quarters about the grievances and requests of minorities, but I must tell you that these assurances have been given and they are going to be implemented. Minority communities must not by mere words but by actions show this that they are truly loyal and they must make majority community feel that they are true citizens of Pakistan. Then you will help me and you will facilitate my task in carrying out the policy which we have laid down. You know you must dispel suspicion and distrust. It is now up to minorities to show by actions and deeds that they are true Pakistanis and dispel suspicion and distrust that has been created by deplorable and disgraceful events that have taken place.”
    CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF BALUCHISTAN
    Reply to the Address presented by a Deputation of the members of the Quetta Parsi Community on 13th June, 1948

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