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Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?

Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

(Written exclusively for PakTeaHouse. Please give credit when crossposting)

The poison of ignorance and extremism that Bhutto and General Zia jointly fathered during their dictatorial regimes has fully indoctrinated even those who otherwise describe themselves as educated.

This week the Large Hadron Collider at the CERN inched closer to the discovery of Higgs Boson or the God Particle as it were. In this extraordinary story of human achievement,  Dr. Abdus Salam is a key player who put Pakistan on the map of theoretical physics. In his homeland though, a group of self-styled champions of Islam have started a posthumous campaign of scurrilous slander claiming that Dr. Salam was giving out nuclear secrets. Forget that even a confirmed bigot like General Zia  held a ceremony in our only nobel prize winner’s honour or that no one ever accused Dr. Salam of any such thing; in Pakistan to be a hero you have to actually transfer technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea.

Now consider the case of 11 year old Sitara Akbar. Every Pakistani and his mother in law are citing her as a crowning national achievement, blissfully oblivious of the fact that she is an Ahmadi. To them her religion is suddenly unimportant or irrelevant or is it? How many Sitara Akbars have been expelled from our schools for being Ahmadi? How many productive citizens of this republic have been killed and maimed for believing differently?

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s National Assembly imagined itself the Islamic equivalent of the Council of Nicea. Just as that ancient bastion of Christian orthodoxy excommunicated unitarian Christians for not believing in the trinity of the father, son and the holy ghost, the National Assembly saw it fit to – primarily at the instigation of the Prime Minister and his law minister- declare an entire sect non-Muslim. Just like the post hoc elevation of the principle of trinity at Nicea, Pakistan’s National Assembly located Islam in the principle of the finality of Prophethood.

This act of our sovereign legislature stood in sharp contrast to the view of this nation’s founding father. On 5 May, 1944, in response to demands of the orthodox vis a vis Ahmadis, Jinnah made it absolutely clear that anyone who professes to be a Muslim is a Muslim and welcome in the Muslim League and that those who were raising the issue were trying to divide the Muslims. Here I am forced to say that I am inclined to accept Jinnah’s view and reject the collective wisdom of our sovereign legislature. There are several reasons which may be cited in this regard:

  1. First and foremost Pakistan is bound by the United Nations’ charter. Therefore Pakistan is bound to ensure freedom of religion for all its citizens and freedom of religion means freedom of religion according to the definition of the subject of the said freedom.
  2. Identity is subjective not objective. The state of Pakistan or any other state cannot tell an Ahmadi that he is not a Muslim because it is intrinsic to the faith of an Ahmadi.  This is an inviolable, inalienable right as part of right to life which every state in the world is bound to protect. If Ahmadis say they are Muslims they ought to be accepted as such.
  3. Pakistan is a signatory to the ICCPR and without reservations since June 2011. Therefore every piece of legislation that discriminates against Ahmadis or forces a label upon them is ultra vires the ICCPR.
  4. The Islamic argument: According to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) anyone who utters the Kalima Shahadah is a Muslim. None of the Kalimas, including the Primary Kalima Shahadah contains any reference to the principle of the finality of Prophethood as understood by the Muslim majority today.
  5. Finally because by conduct and promise, Pakistani state is estopped from claiming otherwise. In 1947, Pakistan laid claim to Qadian as a Muslim holy place, a counter-blast to Sikh claims on Nankana Sahib and Hassan Abdal.  Similarly in 1946 elections which is the basic referendum on the question of Pakistan, Ahmadi votes were instrumental in getting Muslims Pakistan. These are undeniable facts of history.

 

Therefore- fully aware of the stigma attached to this statement- I concur with Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah, thefounding father of Pakistan that Ahmadis are Muslims, if they say they are Muslims and no one, not even the sovereign legislature, has the right to say otherwise.

 

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3,228 Responses to "Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?"

  1. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    pandit kaalchakra ji,
    below are some stupendous examples of the prophecies made by the Promissed messiah, and thier fullfillment with flying colours, you must read, and then compare your earlier prophecies with the prophecies below and then, let me know! rather we will have a public consensus, on whose claim sound to be of an imposter ??who sound most idotic here?who sounds to be speaking divine words?who sounds of God speaking through him?and who sounds a demented fraud talking through him? well we will have an unbiased view, as your claims and my quoted examples of the messiah are right in front of the audience to judge? they will find the truth easily, thanks to you and your venom for us?the world will see through to it, may the righteous one prevail(amen)

    “”"******Reformers always appear from the most humble stock of people who are looked down upon by the great civilizations, and in 1889, when the foundation of the Ahmadiyya Movement was layed by its founder, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, this was his claim, and this is exactly how he was treated by the British Empire, the people of India, and the Muslims. They all mocked him, having been born in a small village, twelve miles from the nearest seed of civilization, with no railway or telegraph. A simple, small, rejected village.

    There was a voice raised and states that God has appointed me, in the name of Christ, to call the entire world to that unity of which both Muslims and Christians have been awaiting for many centuries. He said, “I know that I will be rejected, but, those who truly stand for religious values, and are sent by God will ultimately triumph.” Thus he made a prophecy that despite his rejection, his community would spread all over the world, and there won’t be a single country in the world in which his message shall not reach. From this one man, alone and rejected, from an obscure village in India, his movement now numbers over ten million and is established in 184 countries.

    Christ himself, according to Bible, supports this concept of both messiah and reformation. Christ is asked what the signs were to be the coming of the Promised Messiah. He replied that many false Christ’s were to appear, there were to be wars and rumours of wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes (Math. 24:4,5,7) he then describes how those who accept the Second Messiah would be treated.

    “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake.” (Math.24:9)

    Again, in another book he describes the fate of those who were to accept the one who came in his name.

    “but, before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my names sake. And you shall be betrayed by both parents and brethren and kinsfolk and friends, and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake. But there shall not a hair on your head perish.” (Luke 21:12, 16,17,18).

    What a vivid and frightening description Christ presents of the followers of the Messiah of the latter days. They were to be persecuted, betrayed by their own families, murdered, tortured, imprisoned and treated in the most cruel ways. Yet these atrocities will in no way affect the advancement of the movement, as Christ says, “Not a hair on your head perish.”

    This is exactly the way in which the Ahmadiyya Movement has been treated, yet we have continued to gain strength and converts. For example, the first converts to Ahmadiyya of Afghanistan were stoned to death for not denouncing Hazrat Ahmad, just as the first Christians were martyred. In April of 1984, Pakistan issued an ordinance making it a criminal offence for the members of the community to call themselves Muslims, to say prayers, or behave in any way like a Muslim. The punishment is an unlimited fine, and three years in prison.

    Many Mosques have been destroyed, locked and vandalized. Hundreds have been imprisoned and dozens murdered. To obtain a visa to travel abroad, a section of the form must be signed denouncing Hazrat Ahmad. The Saudi Arabian government has denied permission to Ahmadies to perform Hajj. In Pakistan we are not allowed to bury our dead in a decent manner. In the majority of Muslim countries we are forbidden to propagate. Why? Because we proclaim that God has again blessed mankind with a Messenger, who came in the name of Jesus, teaching peace and love for all and hatred for none. This persecution however, has not been without benefit. The movement is spreading faster than at any time in its history.

    Our founder, The Promised Messiah, called for Muslims to abandon the sword and violence, and to spread and defend Islam by means of logic, intelligent arguments and love. Again Christ told us that the Promised One was to use this method to reach mankind.

    “I will give you a mouth and wisdom and all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.” (Luke 21:15)

    What a clear description of the method used by Hazrat Ahmad to propagate Islam. In his life time, he wrote eighty-four books, and issued an open challenge to all his opponents to produce writings as good as his. His opponents avoided these challenges, monetary rewards unable to entice them. Again Christ states.

    “And then shall all of the tribes of the earth mourn.” (Math. 24:30)

    Here Christ presents clear proof that the Promised Messiah will not agree with contemporary thought and will not support any one group, either religious or political. He, through his wisdom and call to mankind to reform or be destroyed, will cause much discern and worry among the nations. Again, Hazrat Ahmad chastised all religions, showing in each case where they had become corrupted and abandoned the truth. Read his own words as he warns mankind of his fate if he were to ignore the Messiah’s warning.

    “A sign will appear in some days hence which shall overwhelm country and town and meadow. People will be seized in a wave of divine wrath, so suddenly that a naked one will have no time to secure his loin cloth. Suddenly an earthquake will severely shake man, and trees and rocks and oceans. In the twinkling of an eye the earth will be overwhelmed and streams of blood will flow like channel tides. Those who night garments were white as jasmine will wake up in the mourning as if clad in red. Man and animals will go out of their minds and pigeons and nightingales will forget their songs. That hour will bear hard upon every traveller and those on journey will lose their way in agony. The waters of mountain streams will run red of the blood of the dead like red wine. Men high and low will be convulsed in fear and the Czar himself at that hour will be a sad case. That divine sign will be a specimen of terror. Heaven will attack with a drawn sword. Hasten not to repudiate this, thou stupid fool, for on this fulfillment of this sign depends my truth. This is a prophecy based on divine revelation and will surely be fulfilled; wait then awhile in righteousness and steadfastness. Divine revelation has repeatedly employed the word earthquake in this context, but I am not able to state with certainty that it will in fact be an earthquake but some dire calamity the like of which has never been before seen, which would bring about great destruction of life and property. If people do not openly reform their way of life and no extraordinary sign appears, I shall in such case been proven false.” 1905

    History bears testimony as to how this frightening prophecy was fulfilled. Nine short years after its mention of the world witnessed the massive destruction of World War One. Sixty Five million men were mobilized into military action and ten million died. Entire populations suffered the ravages of famine, disease and dislocation. Property damage was estimated at two hundred billion dollars. The Czar abdicated his throne in 1917 and was brutally murdered shortly there after.

    We see further evidence to support our concept of Messiah and reformation when Christ gives a clear indication that the Promised Messiah was to be one who came in his name.

    “Henceforth ye shall never see me till ye say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord” (Math. 23:39)

    Other prophecies made by the first Messiah, Jesus, which came to pass in the life time of Hazrat Ahmad follow.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.” (Math. 24:29)

    The last century was rife with comets, meteor showers and eclipses. Hazrat Ahmad was born in 1835 and departed from this world in 1908. The years, as you will see, of this astronomical activity are between 1833 and 1910, and the years of his birth and death are marked by heavenly signs.

    The Bielids comet was first discovered in 1772. In 1832, the comet passed very close to the earth. In 1845, the comet was observed to break in two, and at the time of its expected return in 1866, it was not found. Meteor showers observed from this comet were observed in 1830, 1838, and in 1885. 39,546 meteors were observed in 4 hours. Since 1899, very few showers from this comet have been observed. In 1866-67, Leonid Comit caused the most spectacular showers of modern times. The Great comet of 1882, one of the brightest of modern times passed within a third million miles of the sun. the Comet of 1843 had a tail of 200 million miles long.

    Haley’s comet appeared in 1835 and again in 1910. Holmes Comet appeared in 1899, and had a diameter in excess of one million miles. Another great comet appeared in 1861, which could be seen in broad daylight. Morehouse Comet of 1908 showed the most rapid variations in appearance that from day to day it could not be recognised as the same comet. On June 1908 the greatest meteorite fall in historic times took place in Siberia. Its destruction can still be seen today. What follows is a list of comets and the year in which they came closest to the sun.

    Regarding the place of the appearance of the Promised Messiah, Christ states:

    “For as lightening cometh from the east and shineth unto the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be.” (Math.24:27)

    Jesus was in Jerusalem when he mentioned this prophecy, and Qadian India, the birth place of Hazrat Ahmad is due east of Jerusalem. The Bible gives special significance to the east in many places. “And behold, the glory of God of Isreal came from the way of the east.” Ezekiel 43:2) “there came wise men from the east” (Math 2:1) ‘And lo, the star which they saw in the east, went before them.” (Math.2:9) “And I saw another angel ascending from the east.”(Rev7:2)

    In Biblical terms the east represents the light of God, his guidance and His wisdom and this is what Hazrat Ahmad brought to mankind.

    In Mathews 24th chapter Jesus also states: “And because inequity abound, the love of many shall wax cold.” (Math 24:12)

    Hazrat Ahmad was born into a world of slavery, cruelty, lawlessness and extermination of entire races. It was a world when capitalism was at its worst, and the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Even children were not immune to those atrocities and exploitation. Jesus further explains.

    “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars.”(Math24:6)

    The following is a partial list of the wars which the world witnessed during the last century.

    A war between China and England, terminated in the loss of Hong Kong to England and a treaty was signed in 1842.
    The Crimean War, England, France and Turkey against Russia in 1854.
    The Seopy Mutiny 1857 to 1858.
    France and Italy against Austria 1859.
    Civil War of U.S.A, 1861 to 1865.
    Franco Prussian War 1870 to 1871
    Russian Turkish War 1877 to 1878
    China and Japan 1890 to 1900
    Turkey and Greece 1890 to 1900
    Invasion of China by all great powers in 1890 to 1900.
    The Boar War 1890 to 1900.
    The war of 1812 between Canada and U.S.A
    Another sign of the coming of the Messiah was that many false Messiah’s were to appear, and in Hazrat Ahmad’s time there were several claimants to that office.

    Prophecies from other Holy Scriptures regarding the advent of the great Reformer of the Latter days are as follows.

    Accordingly, Guru Baba Nanak who was a very righteous and holy man who indeed received revelation from God. His words are recorded and preserved in the Holy Book of the Sihks. We find.

    “The reign of the Mughals shall last from 1578 to 1897 of the Bikram era, then a Reformer shall rise. (Janam Sakhi of Bhai Bala pg. 272) “A time shall come in the latrter age when people shall cease to act upon their scriptures and observe no fasts or prayers, Jogies, Sanyansies, Barhamcharves and Brahmins would be labelled as Gurus. Then a perfect teacher shall crush them all. Such is the decree of heaven, which shall surely come to pass. . (Janam Sakhi pg.. 527)

    Guru Nanak also pophesized that he would be a Muslim, righteous and true, and that he would come from near Batala in the district of Gurdaspur and that he would be from the Mogul Tribe. . (Janam Sakhi pg.. 234, 251 and 452)

    The similarities between Guru Nanak’s prophecies and those of Christ found in the New Testament are obvious. They indicate the same general location of his appearance and both agree that he would be a person of great wisdom. The era of his appearance is also the same, and all of these prophecies were fulfilled by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian India. The Holy Quran, a book which all Muslims agree is the revealed Word of God also mentions several prophecies about the Reformer of the latter days. “Call to mind also when Jesus, son of Mary said. O children of Isreal, surely I am Allah’s Messenger unto you. Fulfilling the prophecies contained in the Torah, which was revealed before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger who will come after me whose name will be Ahmad. But who does greater wrong than he who forges a lie against Allah while he is invited to Islam? Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with the breath of their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, however much the disbelievers may dislike it. He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, however much those who associate partners with Allah may dislike it.” 61:7-10

    These verses predict a messenger who will come and expose the errors and mistakes that had crept in to all religions, thus establishing his as superior. As a note, those who associate partners with Allah are the Christians, and these verses imply that this messenger would arrive when Christianity would be at its peak, and would find his teachings very disturbing. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad began his mission when the British Empire ruled the world, and the Christian missionaries had unlimited funds and resources at their disposal. He destroyed the doctrine of Christianity by proving the Jesus survived the crucifixion and was buried in Kashmir.

    “He it is Who has raised among the unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom though before that they were in manifest error; And He will raise him among others of them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.” 62:3-4

    A companion of the Holy Prophet relates: One day we were sitting with the Holy Prophet when this chapter was revealed. I enquired from Muhammad (peace be upon him). Whom are the people to whom the words “and among others of them who have yet joined them” refer? Sulman, a Persian was sitting among us. The Holy Prophet put his hand on Sulman and said. If faith were to go up to the Pleades, a man from among these would surely find it. (Bokari)

    Hazrat Ahmad is Persian, and by proving Islam superior over all religions, and by removing the interpolations that had crept into Islam over the centuries, he re-established the true teachings of Islam and rescued Islam, metaphorically, from the stars.

    “And from the farthest part of the town there came a man running. He said, ‘O my People, follow the Messengers, ‘Follow those who ask of you no reward, and who are rightly guided.” 36:21-22

    The farthest part of the town signifies a place away from the center of Islam. The word running sows that this man will work for Islam without fatigue, and follow the Messenger implies that he will not bring a new message, but will only revive that Message that had already been given to mankind. The message of Islam. Again, Hazrat Ahmad’s life was a reflection of these verses.

    The Holy Prophet predicted about Imam Mahdi that a number of false claimants to the office of Imam Mahdi would appear and that the Mahdi would come from among the Muslim Ummah. Only one would be the true Mahdi, who would be the true follower of the Holy Prophet. To establish the truth of his claim, two heavenly signs were to appear. These signs would be an eclipse of the sun and moon in the month of Ramadhan. The lunar eclipse would occur on the first of the possible nights of such eclipses, the 13th of the month, and the sun would ecliplse on the second of the possible days when a solar ecliplse can occur. This prophecy was fulfilled in this manner.

    In 1890, Hazrat Ahmad declared to the world that he was the Promised Messiah and Mahdi, and had come in fulfillment of the Bible and Quranic prophecies. The lunar and solar eclipses occurred exactly as predicted in 1894 in the Eastern Hemisphere and in 1895 in the Western Hemisphere. This prophecy is also mentioned in the Bible.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” Mat 24:29

    Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also made several statements regarding the identity of the Imam Mahdi. He said:

    His name would resemble that of the Holy Prophet.
    He will be of Persian descent and related to the Holy Prophet.
    He will come from east of Damascus.
    He will be of dark complexion, neither white or black, have sharp eyes, soft hair and a very long beard.
    He will suffer from two diseases.
    He will receive divine revelation.
    The duration of his mission will be 40 years.
    He will be supported by heavenly signs.
    He will have two missions, to reform Muslims and to point out the falseness of other doctrines.
    He will re-establish Khalifat.
    All of these statements fit Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the odds of one man fulfilling these expectations and at the same time being false is 1 times 10 to the power of 20.”"”"*****

  2. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @mtg: whatever utter non sense, kaal is referring to here, find it for me and please let me kno about it? as except for his words nothing else sounds utter non sense to me? please do me this kind favour? find the utter nonsense kaal was telling you about!!!! i will be very thankful :)

  3. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Dearest sister Mahi (brother khan)

    Welcome back.

    Allow me to make some very minor corrections, again to your Ahmadi doctrine.

    In his conversations with me, dearest Allah (the Most Holy) has been trying to convince me to write the Eleventh Veda (after the ten you mentioned).

    Other than the enlightening time I spend in the company of Ahmadis here, I am rather busy these days. So I have told Him to wait, and see if I find time to take on His commission.

    If you are interested, I can appoint you and brother khan as my first mahees.

    But you will still not be MUSLIM!! :(

  4. Parliament certified muslim United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @kaalchakra

    {{–What do I get for following your directions?–}}

    What do you get? You get the Certificate of Islam issued by the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. You get to be a Parliament-Certified Muslim like me. But Qadiyanis like Mahee are hopeless

  5. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    PCM

    We must love all and hate none. Qadianis’ hopes are a matter between them and whatever thing they worship. For us it is sufficient to point out that they do not follow Islam (or Hinduism, or Christianity, or Buddhism, or any other known recognized religion).

    As to me, meri poori setting Allah (the Most Holy) se directly hai.

  6. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    I view ahmedis closer to divine, if divine is common sense.

  7. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    How you get to the common sense is not important-

  8. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Kaal is getting corrupted transmission from Allah.

  9. Satyamukhi United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    KC,
    How did Allah pronounced P in Arabic ? The reason to know is that Allah ‘s Farman to Punjabi Musalmans , Pathans and Pakistani people to take panga with Punjabis is issued in Arabic. We Kaffirs dont want to miss the announcement when it happen and face another Dec 16th when we lost so much ration to these holy warriors.

  10. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    MTG

    The point to note me lord is that if the Divine was merely your, mine, and satyamukhi’s fickle common sense on any given today then we might as well declare any one of us as the Lord Almighty for that day and be done with it. Hopefully everyone else’s common sense will agree with that divine lord for that day too.

    Not quite how The Divine works, right? :)

  11. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    By the way, the Ahmadi religion is not the slightest more ‘common-sensical’ than Islam is. It appears so to some south asians and christians for two reasons:

    (1) Our Ahmadi brothers and sisters tell only precisely and only what the audience wishes to hear at any time. They are absolutely sure that almost NO-ONE will or will have the time or the inclination to learn things on their own. You would agree that that is a fairly intelligent assumption on their part.

    Islam is a little older – it is more set in its ways. “Traditions’ have developed that are fairly well-known. It’s presentation cannot be controlled so easily as that of the Ahmadi religion. Besides, the Ahmadi religion is a small cult compared to Islam, which is more like a Banyan tree (apologies for that terribly mixed metaphor, or simile or whatever such things are called).

    (2) Ahmadi religion was developed specifically in response to the christian and Indic populations of south asia in mind, and for South Asian Muslims whose minds flirted with some of the ideas of those traditions. Doesn’t make it any more ‘common-sensical’ than Islam. It is just more targeted and more recent.

    ——————

    What should be the unIslamic politics? Should unIslamic people support Ahmadi religion and help it replace Islam from the inside? That issue is for people who are concerned with the politics of it all – which I am not.

  12. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    kaal

    I see ahmedism as a possible exit, for the greater good of the region – may be I am wrong. I am yet to figure that out.

  13. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    no jihad for Allah and no death to apostate – (do you see the exit?)

    that is a very good start, I will take it.

  14. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    MTG, I have already agreed with you. Non-Muslims like you who possess an extremely poor opinion of Islam have good reason to support and promote the Ahmadi religion as a political tool. And any half aware Muslim who loves Islam has an equally good reason to fight this new religion tooth and nail, and in every possible way.

    What one does is a matter of current politics. Hence, it is beyond the scope of my interests, which relate purely to developing accurate understandings of ideas, traditions, and practices affecting large numbers of people over long periods of time.

  15. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    “”"****So I have told Him to wait, and see if I find time to take on His commission.
    If you are interested, I can appoint you and brother khan as my first mahees.
    But you will still not be MUSLIM!!”"”"*****
    no, but thanks mr/miss Kaaaals (darkness, evil and biggottry) the greatest muslim certifying body on muslims, but thanks i dont want to get in your dark circle of sin and madness,get it “KAAAAAAAL CHAKRA”, THE vicious circle of psychotic behaviour and religious fraud.
    again no kaal, and no ghanchakra can certify muslims or hindus or christians. poor kaals of this world have really went blank in thier own darkness.if you are unable to see the truth ,then its your problem, yet your absurd prophecies came and died in a matter of minutes made me realize the level of your intellect, it comes with flying colour yet dies in a few minutes.you know why because it lacks the truth.
    i prove it to you right now that every prophecy made by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed made came true:
    1.he said that God told him , the kings will find blessing in his clothes,amongst those many kings who keep mirza sahab in high regards one was governor general of Gambia, Sir F.M.singhatay, sir f.m asked specifically for a piece of mirza sahib’s cloth to bring God’s blessing and favour to his ownself and his country Gambia.
    i wish kaals darkness that this prophecy would not have fullfilled itself word to word then i was ready to here your gibberish, but you cant help it you fail here.

    (continued)

  16. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    “”"****So I have told Him to wait, and see if I find time to take on His commission.
    If you are interested, I can appoint you and brother khan as my first mahees.
    But you will still not be MUSLIM!!”"”"*****
    no, but thanks mr/miss Kaaaals (darkness, evil and biggottry) the greatest muslim certifying body on muslims, but thanks i dont want to get in your dark circle of sin and madness,get it “KAAAAAAAL CHAKRA”, THE vicious circle of psychotic behaviour and religious fraud.
    again no kaal, and no ghanchakra can certify muslims or hindus or christians. poor kaals of this world have really went blank in thier own darkness.if you are unable to see the truth ,then its your problem, yet your absurd prophecies came and died in a matter of minutes made me realize the level of your intellect, it comes with flying colour yet dies in a few minutes.you know why because it lacks the truth.
    i prove it to you right now that every prophecy made by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed made came true:
    1.he said that God told him , the kings will find blessing in his clothes,amongst those many kings who keep mirza sahab in high regards one was governor general of Gambia, Sir F.M.singhatay, sir f.m asked specifically asked for a piece of mirza sahib’s cloth to bring God’s blessing and favour to his ownself and his country Gambia.
    i wish kaals darkness that this prophecy would not have fullfilled itself word to word then i was ready to here your gibberish, but you cant help it you fail here.

    (continued)

  17. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    2. Mirza sahib, proclaimed that God will prove his coming with mighty calamities and catastrophes, until the day humanity accepts him as messiah; ironically all the greatest wars happened after Mirza sahib”s coming, first world war,then second world war,and then the third is on its way.
    the frequency of catastrophes increased ten fold after the coming of messiah, can you believe that, the greatest number of earth quake, stroms , tsunamis ,and what not came in the 19th century, after the coming of messiah.
    were you bringing all those mr.kaals circle??please send one to my side so that i can shut up, you know.

  18. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    the holy messiah was promissed by God, that his message will reach every corner of the earth, and it came true word by word, mr. circle, where as your boundary is limited to your very own house and paktea house, the circle of ahmaddiyyat has spread in the entire world. name one place where ahmadi jamaat, doesnot exist, except of the wild jungles and barbaric societies of somalia , ahmadis exist on the entire globe, unlike hinduism which is limited to a very small portion of south asians , to flirt with thier minds and follow the “tradition” aint that true kaali sahab. we are everywhere, tell your God whom you have been speaking with after going high to stop us if he can. we are worshipping every where, we are helping humanity every where , we are making a difference in this world by propagating the message of humanty and love for all and hatred for none.

  19. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    4.the global, transmission of “muslim television ahmadiyya” has a very wide viewership world over, not just the south asian romantic minds but in the wild jungles of africa and beaches of indonesia and forest of brazil.we are everywhere globally, can you stop the satelite from transmitting the divine light and spreading enlightement, well then do it right now, or the next time when you are stoned speak to your God and ask him to do it. stop the satelite! mr. kaal chakra, before you sit and start righting the eleventh ved, at least qualify yourself for it, crush ahmadis just like in the imaginary world you are, do it in real. is it true that just like your religion your words have become imaginative fables and tales having no substance. well yes then its definately the time for you to write those tales and fables for your self entertainment and the others who are in your dark circle.stop polluting this page.

  20. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    5. the words of messiah, are reaching every where, but the number of followers are in minorities every where, well then thats the way its supposed to be. no prophet has have ever come in this world and get accpeted divine right away. example of the messiah of bani israel, when was the time that he actually started getting a large number of followers afetr the time he was resurrected in bani israel.thats the time he started getting following. no prophet has ever come to this world who hasnt faced resistance. the greatest resistance was faced by Holy Prophet (s.a.w), and we see now after many centuries the wide circle of muslim majorities states existing on the world map.hence, it will take centuries for ahmadi muslim as well to get in power and majority.it does not happen in seconds it happens after centuries, when a prophet gets acclaimed by wide majority.the fact that we are every where simply proves how the process is starting.
    can you stop it with your dark powers mr .daark circle.

  21. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @k.c,the point where you unthinkably said
    “”"”(1) Our Ahmadi brothers and sisters tell only precisely and only what the audience wishes to hear at any time. They are absolutely sure that almost NO-ONE will or will have the time or the inclination to learn things on their own. You would agree that that is a fairly intelligent assumption on their part.
    Islam is a little older – it is more set in its ways. “Traditions’ have developed that are fairly well-known. It’s presentation cannot be controlled so easily as that of the Ahmadi religion. Besides, the Ahmadi religion is a small cult compared to Islam, which is more like a Banyan tree (apologies for that terribly mixed metaphor, or simile or whatever such things are called).”"”"*****
    well, think again, were we supposed to face so much resistance, if we were going with the traditions and flirting with minds. we had to face no problems if ours was the traditional concept. traditional , is the piri faqiri and traditional is holy shrine concept and traditional is the no prophet coming after Muhammed (s.a.w) theory, doest that ring any bells in your dark circle, we have the most untraditional ways that are not getting very popular amonst the masses , because our beliefs are beyond the stereotypical. we have changed the traditional course,hence we have to go through the greatest resistance.and fyi, divine is never traditional, and divine is never very popular, it always happens, see the rebellion towards divine in yourself , you are one of the greatest example of rebelliousness to the righteous and difficult course of life.
    well,you have fun in your comfortable nut shell, but ahmadis are goin to stay and go out of the box, break traditions and change the stereotypes. we with are unconventional ways will face hardships everyday, but that’ll just make us better muslims than any of the others. the only fact that we fight everyday and give so many sacrifices to persist on this “unromantic”, “untraditional” life is all to please ALLAH.thats what jihad is striving in the way of ALLAH.
    at least, think before writing the crap you lunatic.

  22. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Sister Mahee

    I respect you as my dear sister and you have honored me with such epithets as Kaaaal, darkness, evil, biggottry, the greatest muslim certifying body on muslims, dark circle of sin, madness, “KAAAAAAAL CHAKRA”, stoned, and the most hurtful of all – THE vicious circle of psychotic behaviour.

    Don’t you think that was not very nice?! :(

  23. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    What should be the unIslamic politics?
    ans. un islamic politics is the one, that is being practiced already. because islamic tolerance is about religious tolerance, equality and fairplay. thats exactly not what pakistani politics is on right now.there is no justice, no fairplay and no equality. islamic politics is amnesty for all, and pakistani politics is about oppurtunism and unequal rights distribution,and nepotism. the greatest problem , that Hazrat Usman had to face in his period of khilafat, was nepotism, and his is an an example of how to destroy it(the islamic ways of fairplay).
    yet, the unislamic politics of pakistan is stuck in this web of unjustified, undemocratic and biased ways that it is having really hard time getting out.
    its a fact that bhutto, didnt even a had hint about ahmadism or islam itself but for his lust of power he grabbed this oppurtunity and favoured the unislamic barbarib rule of maulvis.and see what happened to him, none of those bygones came to save him. the mighty leader was hanged in the same country, where every theocratic majority ensured their total support to him, after he gave ruling against ahmadis. so you see with your own naked this bringing religion into politics for power and political support lead bhutto to be hanged with all the support and lust straining him slowly.not just bhutto was unislamic here, but the maulvis who have forgotten the fact that the sole body to certify faith is ALLAH, in their lust for power and mischief they forgot that they were not ALLAH.they became unislamic and Paksitan has faced the worst of times since then.every pakistani of today knows what maulvis want, if not its the right time to ask it to yourself, is the powerful theocracy of Pakistan on the right track? after mass killing of shias, after recent attack on polio workers and after the forged case of rimsh masih and a thousand more exaples i ask every sane pakistani again is theocracy on the path of righteousness???

  24. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    k.c sir,im sorry, these were the humblest words i could come up with, this was my conscience speaking. but again you have all the right to accept or reject it. im not here hurt any ones feeling, as its against the message of peace i strive for as an ahmadi, therefore i extend my apologies.
    even though whatever you said was equally unjustified, but thats okay, i dont ask for apologies at all, its all in a day an ahmadi has to face, to strive for righteousness.

  25. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Thank you sister. On my part I give you full freedom to jhanda phaharao of your Ahmadi religion on the moon, if that is what would please Bhai Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his progeny. My purpose is not to stop you, only to clarify that you do not follow Islam.

    What’s more, you have the full freedom to do so while certifying everyone else’s religion as dead, full of fairy tales and dog-weddings, jantar mantar, terrorism, naked, and traditional and rebellious and so forth. Between brother and sister such things should not matter. Best.

  26. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    k.c, sir, you are not a brother or sister at all, may the real GOD lead you towards the righteous path.

  27. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Sister Mahee

    Roothee sister bhi dear sister hi hoti hai. If you want, aap is bhai ka religion totally false, completely dead, full of kundali, jantar mantar, panditji, dog marriage, ho ho, ha ha, ya Islam ko terrorist, dead, rebellious or sons and daughters of prostitutes – whatever you wish you can certify. Aaap ko is certification ki poori authority hai – as a dear sister.

    Buss, aise naaraz na hon. :(

    Love for all.

  28. sta Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Kaalchakra
    I have somewhat followed the deeply affectionate brotherly-sisterly, brotherly-brotherly or sisterly-sisterly dialogue between you and Mahee. Now, coming to the debate, which seems to be still on, I could not help noticing that while you do seem to have the upper hand in the satire department, Mahee has somewhat argued more sincerely. Your following words of kindness also caught my eye:
    “My purpose is not to stop you, only to clarify that you do not follow Islam”
    I have no grounds to suspect your veracity, but do find this statement a bit presumptuously judgemental. How, may I respectfully ask, did you infer that Mahee is not following Islam?

  29. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    sta

    First, my friend, you deserve gratitude, from both me and my sister mahee, for not doubting her sincerity – particularly when she described how deeply she respected other religions, and the generous nature of her certifications for all other religions. She was fully sincere as are all other Ahamdi brothers and sisters in their love and affection for anyone who disagrees with the their claims about other religions.

    So thank you again. As to how I inferred this and that – there is a saying in our sincerest, ahmadi-certified pandit jantar mantar dog infested dead ‘religion’ – jab ramayan khatam (end, not best) ho gayee tau poochhte ho ki raam kaun tha.

    Some other time, bro.

  30. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    While I am going to take a break, I do not wish to overlook sending my sincerest love to you Sta and to all other Ahmadi brothers and sisters. May whatever you worship – true or false – keep you safe.

    Love for all.

  31. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    kaal chakra, you have a very good impression of all the ahmadis on this forum, even though you definately believe all of us are saints, and no matter what rubbish you say about ahmaddiyyat we will not react, but i take my blame. i am no angel no saint, im very human, and my words were the most rational humane response,to your extremely treacherous stance on ahmadiyyat. yes i accept every blame on myself, nothing to do with the rest of ahmadis, they are actually as heavenly as you expect us all to be.
    im sorry,but for all the unexplicably illogical, and mindless rubbish you have said about ahmadi islam, you deserve worse.and im sorry but after you make such adverse judgements on my religion and faith, what do you expect in return from me, about your religion.what, should i say about yours when you go to every level of disgust when talking about mine?how should i respect you when you have no respect for us. no matter how clearly we tell you how much we believe in every religion the needle on your clock is just stuck.you must read all of the comments again and judge with a working mind who sounds the most irrational?o.k
    this is no kindergarden , come on atlest hold on to something firmly will you please.first your non sensical abuse about ahmadis, then your absurd crazy prophecies, then unislamic politics and finally after all the strategies fail to malign us, so you dumbfoundedly said You are not muslims!
    hahaha you make me laugh, kaal, you have a very funny sarcastic side, go polish up the talent and go on stages and make people laugh. thats a better nobility, then using it in religious beliefs and faith matters. itS God, we are all finding here, nothing sarcastic funny about it until you are an atheist.and this place is unquestionably not meant for atheists.so instead of making false predictions and passing wrong judgements find some better and healthy excercise.
    your uncle Mahis

  32. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Sister Mahee!

    Allah bara raham wala hai. He did not want my sweet sister to be upset while I am gone.

    Sister, ab naraz na hon. I accept all your Ahmadi certifications of all other religions. We all follow dead religions. If we disagree with your gracious lords and lordesses we are rebellious, prostitutes, sons of prostitutes and pimps. For not accepting Bhai Ghulam Ahmad’s claims we are illogical, talk mindless rubbish, commit extreme treachery.

    Although you will forgive me in your love, but you know such extreme unacceptable behavior on my part as saying that you do not follow Islam, and my predictions that you will never be accepted as Muslims (as opposed to your predictions about mine and everyone else’s religions) I should probably be slaughtered, knifed, at night, by your most compassionate Allah, himself (remember, O’ my peaceful Ahmadi sister?).

    But you are too kind. Instead of punishing me, you punish yourselves. Please don’t. You are too precious, just as you are – rational, logical, and sweet. May you live long, and may nobody – no Allah and no Dajjal – knife you in the darkness of the night.

    Please relax. Merry Christams Seasons’ greetings to you. You do celebrate that, no, being followers of Jesus?

    Love to you and to all my Ahmadi brothers and sisters, in particular.

    Later.

  33. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    kaal chakra, bhaiyya no no, i have no issue with you following any sick, morbid, dead or no religion at all.you can follow anything you want.your practices cannot be judged by me bhaiyya, you alwayssss forget i dont kno why im not God, and none of the ahmadiyya group is. its none of my business, but when you call us ahmadis the greatest challenge islam has ever faced. and bhaiyya you are very intelligent but your thinking about pth, looking out for us because it wants to get rid of islam is very sick nah.
    yesterday, after i completed all the five prayers in islam, and asked my Allah (the God in islam) for guidance, i think he wanted me to let you know :that please let this lost distant brother of yours to stop looking out for islam, and be a better hindu than others. you know Allah bara rehman hai , aap achay hindu hi ban jayain, woh khush ho jayay ga!stop worrying about islam bhaiyya, its making you crazy.
    you must look out for yourself, happy belated diwali.
    (and now my slogan ahmaddiyyat islam ki jayay ho, naaraYtakbeer, ALLAH U AKBAR)

  34. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    I knew my sister would be fair and intelligent, despite her claims to be being divine and Ahmadi.

    It is settled then. The rest of us mankind (crazy and demented) follow our sick, morbid, dead, or religion at all, as certified, respected and loved by Ahmadis, while Ahmadis follow Mirza Ghulam, the literally sick reincarnation of Krishna, Rama, Muhammad, Buddha; cruel murderer of those who opposed him; dearly loved and respected by us; a religion which is not remotely Islam, as certified by all knowledgeable Muslims and the unbeliever me.

    Now, sister, for another twelve hours or so, get back to your loud slogans and narabazi, which won’t save you (only Islam will, and Islam can clearly tell a complete hypocrite doing narabazi trying to destroy Islam from the inside and a Muslim actually following Islam), while I go and have fun as an openly confessed unbeliever, and talk to Allah about the terrible fate of hypocrites and religious frauds.)

    Love to all.

  35. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    no, brother there is always hope for you, i believe.and instead of whining so much about what we say of your religion, why dont you start to prove something. well, i have got proof thats why i can say anything i want to. you name somthing and i,ll prove it. the question of mortality oimmoratality of a religion lies in its subject matter. can you please provide us with something substatial to prove against our opinion!well, if yes then bring it on table stop crying like that.
    why dont you tell me why is what you are following not morbid, but what iam following is.instead of passing derogatory remarks come up with some prooooooof.
    you must know the difference between insanity and intellect, one keeps repeating non sense, the other always proves his point.
    seeee ya aunty black chakra!

  36. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    islam sub say acha, islam sub say pyara, islam dil ki kuwat, islam hai sahara (ameen)

  37. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Mahee I know you are getting emotional here but please don’t promote music.

    Islam will not be promoted by bhands, we need to be practical.

  38. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    only for kuffar –

    http://youtu.be/mYrrTuNaHAA

  39. u wa me do Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    while Ahmadis follow Mirza Ghulam, the literally sick reincarnation of Krishna, Rama, Muhammad, Buddha; cruel murderer of those who opposed him

    are you saying Krishna, Rama, Muhammad, and Buddha were sick??

  40. Bin Ismail Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Kaalchakra (December 22, 2012 at 3:51 pm)

    Ahmadis follow Mirza Ghulam, the literally sick reincarnation of Krishna, Rama, Muhammad, Buddha; cruel murderer of those who opposed him

    Allow me to point out here, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, has nowhere claimed that he is the reincarnation of anyone. In fact, he does not endorse the concept of Reincarnation as generally understood. Coming in the spirit of someone is not the same as appearing as someone’s reincarnation.
    Secondly, I would also like to point out that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not murder anybody, and I have a feeling you know that. If God chose to eliminate some of his opponents, this would be an act of God.

  41. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    My Ahmadi brothers and sisters, I am absolutely certain that Ahmadis were the first religious murderers and assassins in the post-1857 history of the Indian subcontinent. At least I was. Now some people are saying that in KP, Allah eliminated Bashir Ahmed and protected Ghulam Ahmad. Others are saying that Bashir Ahmed’s enemies – actual human beings with their own politico-religious agendas – killed him.

    In these claims and counter claims let’s see if Allah is discovered to have carried out the murderous attack. What do you very fine gentlemen and even finer ladies would like to believe – could it have been Allah, or was it some human being as claimed by a few?

  42. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Krishna, Rama, Muhammad, and Buddha were sick?

    Brother UWa, our Ahamdi brothers and sisters know these things better.

    One of the things our ABS (Ahmadi brothers and sisters) do is to claim that ‘all prophets were the same’ whenever a Muslim rightly points to the rather very questionable aspects of Bhai Ghulam Ahmad’s life and behavior. If they were all the same then that is what our dear Ahmadi brothers and sisters seem to say. You can take that Ahmadi claim with as much sugar or salt as you would with anything else that our ABS say. That decision is entirely up to your own conscience.

  43. truth power Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    k.c bhai,
    “”"”questionable aspects of Bhai Ghulam Ahmad’s life and behavior.”"”
    i m dying to know those “QUESTIONABLE “aspects of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (a.s),life, were they the same as other prophets had to face to achieve the status on which they are right now!if you are talking about the same abuse that every prophet has faced in and after his blessed divine life then yess you are totally right about that!these false aspects will always remain questionable dont worry. just like Hazrat Muhammed(s.a.w) is still being questioned in the west. Mirza sahib is questioned in the muslim world, as they still havent realised, but when they will they will stop.s

  44. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    TP bhai

    Many aspects of Mirza Ghulam Bhai’s life were extremely questionable, to put that most mildly. As Ahmadis themselves acknowledge, he was, to begin with, a very sick man.

    If you want to argue that Prophet Muhmmad was the same, or worse, or the devil himself, that is between you Muslims who know about Prophet Muhammad more than you or I do.

    Love to all Ahmadi brothers and sisters.

  45. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Sincere apologies….that should have been..

    “that is between you and Muslims who know more about Prophet Muhmmad than you and I do.”

  46. sta Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Kaalchakra
    If you recall, a battle did take place in which Krishna was on the side of Arjun. I would interpret the casualties on the other side as an act of God. You are free to interpret them as a “religious murder” committed by Krishna. Depending upon the severity of the opposition, enemies of God’s holy men, do at times the wrath of God. The case of Bilour that you have quoted, hardly seems to be working. Even as satire, it’s not up to your usual standard. Bilour was not opposing any holy man of God.
    Let me give you some other examples. Nimrod was punished by God for the manner in which he opposed Abraham. Pharaoh opposed Moses and was punished by God. Abu Jehl met his end by the Will of God for his crimes against Muhammad.

  47. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Brother and sister sta

    I am not sure where you see satire here or who the man of god is or was for whom Allah would personally murder their opponents. If you choose to believe so that is your decision. I do not mean to interfere with your religious beliefs, just as I do not wish to interfere with the religious beliefs of people who murdered Bashir Ahmad or that blasphemer Salman Taseer – all, who you think committed great wars against your God or Gods. Those beliefs are for you rational and progressive believers alone.

    Love for all my Ahmadi brothers and sisters.

  48. truth power Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    k.c bhai,i accept all the love you send my way as your ahmadi brother,and with this love love in my heart i would like to inform you what you wrote below is total bull’s crap:
    “”"Many aspects of Mirza Ghulam Bhai’s life were extremely questionable, to put that most mildly. As Ahmadis themselves acknowledge, he was, to begin with, a very sick man.”"”
    as your ahmadi brother i must acknowledge you are a very sick man, kaal chakra bhai.you have so many unquestionable aspects that remain unanswered.to start wih, you have a major hallucinating problem, and sometimes you start behaving as God, and seriously you love speaking ill about nobility and vice versa!madness is bound to envelop you soon my son, my son as prophecised by your ahmadi brother.

  49. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Brother and sister tp

    LOL…thank you. What would those do who do not have Ahmadi brothers and sisters?

    My dearest Ahmadi brothers and sisters always come down to the level you just stooped. Many go down much further. So if you choose, my brother and sister tp, you have quite a ways to go.

    But Ahmadis do themselves recognize that Bhai Mirza Ghulam was a very sick man. And when confronted with some (very disgusting, to non-Ahmadis) details of bhai jaan’s life, tell the world that Prophet Muhmmad was the same.

    Those are facts. Not very important to me, but facts don’t change if they are important or not.

    Love to all my Ahmadi brothers and sisters.

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