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“Blaming politicians alone for tarnishing democracy is actually less than half the story”- Benazir Bhutto’s interview to Herald (2000)

January 19th, 2012 | 21 Comments

“Tomorrow they may decide to kill me because I know too much. But I want this on record so that one day, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, somebody goes back and says: What was happening in Quaid-e-Azam’s Pakistan?”
Nearly twelve years ago monthly Herald published this interview of Benazir Bhutto (taken by Ali Dayan Hasan). This is perhaps the most revealing interview that BB gave to a local publication. In the context of Pakistan in 2012, this interview remains most relevant. This introduction to the interview is most insightful as it echoes many themes that we are living through once again. Her successor, Yusuf Raza Gilani has made similar remarks on the floor of the Parliament. At least we seemed to have inched a little forward though the destination of democratic Pakistan remains rather elusive. RR

In her most candid interview since 1988, Benazir Bhutto, twice elected prime minister of Pakistan, reveals the extent to which successive civilian governments have been held hostage, and destabilised, by the ‘security apparatus’ of the military. Bhutto, chairperson of the PPP — the single largest political party of the country — explains the helplessness of civilian governments in the face of Intelligence-inspired disinformation on the one hand, and ideologically motivated illegal activities of ‘rogue elements’ of the army on the other. She argues that the security apparatus of the country is out of control and that no government can hope to function smoothly unless these elements are brought under formalised command structure that prevents them from taking on the role of a state within a state. There is much evidence to support Bhutto’s claims, including that of her adversaries — General Aslam Beg, General Hameed Gul and General Asad Durrani — all of whom conspired against civilian governments and have repeatedly gone on record to admit as much. “Blaming politicians alone for tarnishing democracy is actually less than half the story,” argues Bhutto. Here, she explains why.

To read the full interview click here BB’s interview 2000 Annual Issue

Here are a few pertinent passages from the interview:

Q. You have presided twice over a controlled democracy. What have you learnt from the experience?
A. There is a tendency in Pakistan, due to military dictatorships and one-man rule, to think that one person can make all the difference. But in a democratic system, it is not just one person that makes a difference. A democratic ruler, such as myself, functions within the confines of the constitution. We need a civic consensus on what a constitution should be and what constitutes freedom and plurality. I had to work on the mandate I was given and that is why I say that we did not achieve much. I had to work with the 8th amendment and a president who could sack the prime minister. In other words, some elements in the intelligence agencies used the president when they felt I was becoming too powerful. They never allowed us enough time to elect members of the senate which would have made my party — and the democratic forces — stronger. The real solution lies not with any individual. I can only give a clarion call. Then it depends on the masses whether they rally around that call to say that they want a constitution based on the supremacy of the will of the people and that the prime minister and parliament must determine national security and not the military.

Q. Did you attempt to rein in the intelligence agencies when you were in power?
A. Yes, I did. For instance, in December 1988, within a week of my forming the government, Brigadier Imtiaz working at the ISI Internal began contacting political parties to overthrow my government. My political adviser at the time, General Babar, moved to have him replaced. The army refused initially, though later, Brigadier Imtiaz was removed from the ISI Internal, not from the army itself. So, I tried but they defied me and because of the 8th amendment, I could not remove any officer myself. We collected proof, in 1989, of ISI elements visiting MNAs for a no-confidence move. We made audio tapes. The head of the MI entered my office and saw the photograph of the man who had been approaching my MNAs. He panicked, took the photograph and the tape and then sent me a report saying the man in question was deranged. In 1990, when the ISI launched a similar effort, we made a videotape called Operation Jackal . A serving army officer, Brigadier Imtiaz, technically not in the ISI but substantively still there, was taped saying: ‘the army does not want her, the president does not want her, the Americans don’t want her’. He was seeking the support of parliamentarians to oust the government. I gave that tape, substantive proof of treason, to General Beg. He filibustered.

On March 23, 1989, the army jawans mobbed me in a show of support when I went to the Pakistan Day parade. General Beg panicked. I was used to being mobbed and public adulation. I told him it was all right. The support waned when the intelligence agencies — sometimes the ISI, sometimes the MI, at others the FIT and the FIU and even the corps command — intrigued. Poisonous stories were prepared and circulated to the corps
remove you and replace you with General Imtiaz as COAS’. It was a ridiculous story but he believed it. They told Ghulam Ishaq Khan that, ‘If she gets a senate majority, she’ll impeach you and replace you with Yahya Bakhtiar’. They concocted these stories. They went to one of my party leaders and said, ‘Get 10 MNAs and we will make you prime minister’. A corps commander went to my husband in 1989 and said that they could not salute a woman. ‘Let her make you prime minister as we have no problems with the PPP’.
In 1993, they sent a Middle Eastern prince to tell me the same thing — that Nawaz was going but I should bow out because if I fought, things would be different.

Eventually, under pressure, Beg just retired the man whereas he should have been tried for treason. Then, when the no-confidence move failed, I was approached by my MPAs in the NWFP who said that General Beg had called them to the GHQ and said, ‘We want to get rid of her starting with the NWFP and could you please move a no- confidence vote against her.’ So, a
commanders and the jawans to put the seeds of hatred in people’s hearts. These included false stories of corruption, of Indian agents, of Jewish agents, of American agents, Sikh lists. Thus, an impression was created that we are corrupt traitors and even our supporters turned against us. Beg was with me till the Intelligence worked on him and convinced him that ‘she wants to
them money to overthrow me. And then Nawaz said that he would bring Islam to Pakistan. Does the public think these things need to be investigated independently or not? No one had heard of Osama Bin Laden then. I had not either. He is famous now. In those days he was unknown but he was sitting there interfering in my government. He paid 10 million dollars to finance the

Q. Can you provide further examples of how the military establishment and the intelligence agencies operated to destabilise democracy during your first tenure?
A. I have two witnesses who tell me that they attended two similar meetings arranged by a then- serving corps commander during my first term. In these meetings, the corps commander, Nawaz Sharif and Osama Bin Laden were present. Osama Bin Laden was told that a woman in this position was against Islam so he should give them money to overthrow me. And then Nawaz said that he would bring Islam to Pakistan. Does the public think these things need to be investigated independently or not? No one had heard of Osama Bin Laden then. I had not either. He is famous now. In those days he was unknown but he was sitting there interfering in my government. He paid 10 million dollars to finance theno-confidence move against me. At that time, we heard that the money came from Saudi Arabia. I sent a minister to meet King Fahd. He has been very kind to me and I really like him. He is an urbane, generous and kind man. I told my emissary to remind the king that he had said to me: ‘Ali Bhutto was my brother and my friend. I opposed his murder. I thought it was unjust then and I think it is unjust now. You are like my daughter’. Then how come he was sending money to overthrow my government?
He sent back a message saying that the Saudi government was not involved and it was a private Saudi citizen. Later on, from these two individuals who were with the PML then but are with us now, I learnt that the meetings involved Sharif, a then-serving corps commander and Osama and they wheedled 10 million dollars out of Osama to overthrow the government.
Meanwhile, my parliamentarians informed me that they were offered a million dollars each by Mr. Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi to get rid of me. I like Mr. Jatoi. He treats me like a daughter and personally I have no problem with him. But I do think Mr. Jatoi and I both owe it to the nation that the facts should come out.
I set up my own Trojan horse. I told the MNAs to go ahead and take the money. ‘Let them think you are with them’. That is how they lost the no-confidence motion. My four MNAs were counted against me but they did not crossover and two more joined me. Otherwise they had it all set. And then we had this very funny incident when these four MNAs came to the prime minister’s house with briefcases of money and said, ‘You take it’, and I said, ‘No, I cannot’. In the end, of course, the money was not taken but the fact remains that these sorts of sums were paid for no-confidence votes. And they were not paid by the political parties but by the intelligence agencies and rogue elements in the military as well as right-wing adventurists.
And at the SAF games, Beg sat next to me with a very satisfied smile on his face. When three PML MNAs came and sat next to me, his face fell. ‘What are they doing here?’ he asked me in panic. I smiled and said they had joined the government. ‘Isn’t that wonderful?’ Beg just looked like a ghost. And then we were accused of horse-trading and corruption. Thus the intelligence agencies try to create a ‘heads, I win, tails, you lose’ situation for the political class. This simply cannot continue…

“We cannot have an army or intelligence agencies that constantly destabilise governments. We cannot have rogue elements incessantly violating their oath and plunging the nation into crises.”

To read the interview click here BB’s interview 2000 Annual Issue

Written by paktea

Filed under: Benazir Bhutto · Tags: Ali-Dayan-Hasan, Benazir Bhutto, Democracy, General Aslam Beg, General Hameed Gul, Herald, Interview

21 Responses to "“Blaming politicians alone for tarnishing democracy is actually less than half the story”- Benazir Bhutto’s interview to Herald (2000)"

Amjad Cheema says:

January 20, 2012 at 2:06 am

One can not be more prophetic
Mustafa says:

January 20, 2012 at 6:32 am

Nonsense! There are ambitious generals and intellegence officials all over the world including, Turkey , Venezuela , US etc. Pakistan is in no way a unique country. The only thing keeping the establishment out of politics is moral authority excercized by civilians. Governance, performance and moral authority. Erdogan proved it in Turkey, Chavez proved it in Venezuela, and I am sure there are tons of other examples.

But ofcourse when you have extremely curropt civilians like BB and AZ, who are the most curropt polticians in Pakistan history, then you will obviously have problems. AZ and BB remind me of Bill and Hillary Clinton who are the most curropt polticians in the United States.

Well anyways, people always keep whining and groaning about the military , even though dictators (as destabalizing as they may be) perform better than lousy civilians like the not so Sharif brothers and AZ and BB.

Only Imran Khan can change this trend just like Erdogan changed the trend in Turkey!
Mustafa says:

January 20, 2012 at 6:33 am

She never stopped AZ (mr 10%) from hoarding all that wealth . I wonder how they managed to get all those mansions in Dubai and London and billions in Swiss Bank accounts. No wonder whether out of ambition or necessity the Army steps in.
Darbari Zina Ho Ya Zardari G says:

January 20, 2012 at 9:02 am

“Thought process of average rational human is build up with human interaction and experiences. Poaqqs on the other hand have collective dogmatic thinking immune to many human factors. All of their overtues etc ought to be observed from this dogmatic point of view. Hudna is no substitue for internationally recognized treaty among the civilized nations of the world. Paki indvidual and nation behaviour of last few decades vouch for precaution to be observed while dealing with Poaqasurs. They have not kept a single obligation on which they signed for.From Zinnha to Zardari, its all about Makkari, Individual as well Sarkari.
“
Haris Kamal says:

January 20, 2012 at 10:10 am

I am using my right of freedom of speech. What was her right to lead Pakistan, just because she was a princess of Pakistan that led her to the right to the throne of this country.
After talking to a ‘Jayala’ I wrote a fairy tale:

Once upon a time in a mysterious world where the ‘Devil’ ruled, there lived Evils,a King, a princess, a bald village idiot and few million people whose fate was hanging. Devil divided his crown into pieces of lands; each land was controlled by a different Evil. Evils came in all forms and sizes and some were big and small.

A King ruled such a land. Evil forces threw out and killed the people’s king. Her daughter (who didn’t even liked to live in her father’s kingdom) returned after 11 years to seek her throne. People supported her and she threw the Evil forces out of her domain. Sat on her throne. And said this is democracy.

Before she reached her throne she made a deal with an even bigger evil. Under the flag of democracy they continued the way of the Evil and found an accomplice in “the bald village idiot”. The idiot was loved by traders for his illegal trading ways. They shared the thrones for 10 years.

Then Evil returned again with more power and exiled all of the “rulers” for 8 years. The bigger Evil was locked in the secret dungeon for many years. But as you know the devil’s motive was to spread the Evil all over the Land. So the devil stopped the clash of the Evils with a magical spell “Neo Rho Olopi” (NRO) for short.

Then to the people’s dismay the princess was killed by the Evils. And the Evils ruled forver…….

(Ending contributed by the evils…….)
asad says:

January 20, 2012 at 12:03 pm

excellent interview.very informative indeed. why the comments made on this page r not moderated. plz, we can disagree in a civilised way too. stop using foul language.
Umair says:

January 20, 2012 at 1:16 pm

How shrewed, brilliant and intelligent the young lady was. Beating the junta duffers merely with her acumen.The only difference in, “now and than” is that all these tricks of establishment were covert and away from public eye whereas these are now very much visible and identifiable.
RIP BB, we miss you.
“Blaming politicians alone for tarnishing democracy is actually less than half the story”- Benazir Bhutto’s interview to Herald (2000) | Tea Break says:

January 20, 2012 at 4:21 pm

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rex minor says:

January 20, 2012 at 4:29 pm

It is not usual to talk about the dead. Both father ad daughter Bhuttos had highly emotional and erratic personalities and did not shy away from love/hate relations with the military. Pakistan definitely needs reforms in the structure of the civilian Govt. as well as the military. Pakistan army must be converted into a National army and not be lef as a colonial army. Military must be placed under the democraticaly elected Govt. but the civilian Prime Minister must show that it has the capability to take over the role. Mr Gillani is definitely not the right metal for democracy.

Mustafa has rightly pointed out, the civilian Govt. must take a chapter from the curent Turkish Govt. which has been gradualy disengaging the military from non military responsibilities.

Rex Minor
observ says:

January 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm

to rex

Why don’t ou go to Pakistan and replace Gilani?
rex minor says:

January 20, 2012 at 7:33 pm

@Observ
And to have you as a neighbour? No thanks, try Kaalchakra, after all he is an honrary Pakistani, so he said. Besides, Mr Gillani hus dugged in and when Bhuttos dig in, their dead bodies leave the office.

Rex Minor
Zaeem says:

January 21, 2012 at 2:35 am

@Mustafa- I dont want to call you a “MORON” cuz my grooming does not allow me to- But tell you the truth- People like you are the black sheep and GANDI Machli to blame it all on the POLITICIAN like Bibi and AZ- You gota wash your face and Ass to talk about these two-

Let me add- She and her father died for People of pakistan- they could have lived best life abroad or even in paki- what made them come on streets with US???? And FYI- Why don they Blast the PTI and PML N jalsas??? Cuz People like you are there-

We will Fight till the END- Cheers!!!!!
Rehmat says:

January 21, 2012 at 2:40 am

Jiay Bhuto sahib…….. jiay BIBI sahiba
“Blaming politicians alone for tarnishing democracy is actually less than half the story”- Benazir Bhutto’s interview to Herald (2000) | Indus Asia Online Journal (iaoj) says:

January 21, 2012 at 2:50 am

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Naveed Javed says:

January 21, 2012 at 3:06 am

As BB Shaheed said “Democracy is the best Revenge”- And yes no one can refute the truth that the Family has sacrificed a lot, ZA Bhutto Shaheed and BB Shaheed gave up a lot for people of Pakistan and democratic system of the country; we Pakistanis owe Bhutto family for the sacrifices they have made for us! Long Live PPP- Long Live Bhuttoism!
Mustafa says:

January 21, 2012 at 5:34 am

@Zaeem: My freind you just showed your character and upbringing anyway. Your language is proof of that. Nobody has to agree with everything, you can disagree politely but that is something people on this blog just dont know how to do.

But will adress your points anyway:

1. I never ”blamed it all” on politicians. I said the establishment interference is also a problem. But since people like to bitch and moan about Establishment all day long , I thought why not also mention our civilian nutcases that just cant satisfy thier greedy desires of hoarding wealth and in turn create the vaccuum in which the Establishment takes over in the first place!

2. These two are curropt not according to me, but according to Pakistani and non Pakistani analysts around the world. Thier curropt practices are known to all except the selectively blind!

3. Her father yes, ZAB , great man. He is the only one who diead for Pakistan. The rest of the family used his name to get into politics and how he must be twisting in his grave to see what his successors of his party are doing to PPP and the country! Zardari and Benazir were exact opposites of ZAB.

4. Come on the streets? Could have lived best life? Clearly you havent seen the photos of the massive mansion in Emirates Hills and other places. She has been in ”exile” for very long and they have all led a fantastic life. As for risking her life, even the traitor Musharraf is playing Russian Roulette with his life by coming back to Pakistan becuase he is hungry for power like BB and BB took her chances and it didnt work out. However to be fair I did see a few positive changes like support for Cheif Justice. But at the same time she met Israeli President Shimon Peres quite a few times and that is saying quite a lot!

5.Blast? Ahh rite, anyone who is critical of PPP and Bhutto Clan is a terrorist. Yup, no educated people there. As for your information, PTI is backed by the youth of Pakistan! Most overseas Pakistanis support PTI as do most Pakistanis in Pakistan. Calling Imran Khan a terrorist Islamist has gotten really old! You should have come up with another label!

6. Fight, for ur idols and leader. Like Hassan Nissar correctly says, lift on your shoulders your killers and those who rob you of your wealth! Personality worship is all ur capable of! So blinded by personality that obvious defects cannot be seen! Its because of loyalists like you that Pakistan keeps voting the same nutcases in power! But go on, its your choice!
sana says:

January 21, 2012 at 2:02 pm

this interview should be translated in urdu language and be published in the local newspapers.its a must read interview . infact its a shut up call to all the ”patriotic” politicians, analysta( including benazir bhutto neice,fatima bhutto) who alege benazir was a traitor, corrupt person or she got everything on a platter by using her surname. it evident now that ”corruption” z used as a tool by military establishment to unseat elected govt. in pakistan.
junaid says:

January 21, 2012 at 2:15 pm

True prediction of benazir bhutto:” tommorrow ”they” decide to kill me because i know too much. but i want this on record so that one day, 1o years from now, 20 years from now,somebody goes back and says,’what was happening in Quaid’s Pakistan”
Ahhh! bibi u r much missed.RIP.U WERE LARGER THAN LIFE.NOW U R A LEGEND
Kamal says:

January 22, 2012 at 12:57 pm

Intriguing in it was Al-Qaeda inspired Nawaz Sharif; why else would he want to become an Ameer ul Momineen.
zahid says:

January 24, 2012 at 10:02 pm

well speaking of corruption,i will say that the army generals are more corrupt then the politicans but they are holly cows and there corruption are never invistgated.these generals made billons of ruppes during afgan war in the 80′s.they banned the issue of newsweek with the cover story’the 10 most wealtiest genrals of the world.if someday they are invistigated then the coruption of these ‘bloody civilians’will be peanuts aftarall a single stinger missile will fetch you more then bb@az account in swisserland.on 10 aparil 1988 a team of fbi was to arive in pakistan 2invastigate the leak.arms 4 the afghan fighters were stockfile in ogrri camp near pindi”coincidently”the camp caught fire raining rockets on the city killing hundreds of people no wonder our generals are clean and the polictitions are dirty
Amjad Cheema says:

January 25, 2012 at 4:44 am

Stop superior human being culture, we r all equal in our civic rights, she was elected twice PM, she had the mandate of the people, mwe must respect that mandate. Stop this fascism. U could not defeat her politically so chose to eliminate her physically, shame on all u fascists