Pak Tea House » Opinion » An Australian takes issue over skewed article on Pakistan by Time Magazine
An Australian takes issue over skewed article on Pakistan by Time Magazine
I recently returned from a charitable trip to Pakistan, whereby I visited both Karachi and Islamabad. I spoke with several universities, key businesses, prominent business leaders and several religious people from all generations….On the day I returned to the office, someone had placed your magazine (January 16, 2012), on my desk. I read with interest your article on Karachi and the city in doom. For a person to have just returned from the very same place that your magazine described was somewhat bizarre, so I read with great detail your writer (Andrew Marshall’s) account.
Let me begin by saying that I often flick through your magazine and find the articles of great interest, but on this particular day and this particular article, I found certain comments to be both one sided and indeed very negative. I say that because I saw a different Pakistan to what was portrayed in your article. I do not and will not comment on the political or religious problems that the country faces, but I will go so far as to say that not everything is as bad as the image that your magazine paints.
Sure there are deaths in the cities. Please show me a city in the world, that is free from political fighting and unrest.
Sure there are differences in the political party opinions. Please show me a country in the world where the political parties agree.
Sure the innocent are suffering. Please show me a country in the world where wealth and power is equal and the innocent don’t suffer.
Sure corruption is in Pakistan. Please show me a country in the world that is corruption free.
My list could go on, but my point is that Pakistan does have problems…but so does every other country in the world in some way or another. However, in the case of ALL other nations, there are often good things to report and the media goes out of its way to promote these good things across the globe, whenever possible. The ridiculous amount of shootings in the USA are balanced off by the success of Google, Microsoft and Apple. The financial dilemmas of Greece are lost in the marketing of the Greek Islands as a holiday destination of choice. The child slave industry of India, is brushed under the carpet in favour of the nation’s growth in the global software boom. What I am trying to say, is that someone needs to look further into Pakistan and see that there are millions of great stories to write about, which would portray the country in a different light, to that what is being portrayed by your article.
When I was in Pakistan, I visited a towel manufacturing company (Alkaram Towels). They produced some $60million in export in 2011 and are aiming at $85million in 2012. A substantial increase in sales…in a recession I would remind you. The company was started by the current Chairman, Mr. Mehtab Chawla, at the tender age of nine, after his father passed away. Today the very man employs 3000 staff. Now that’s a story.
I visited universities of NED, Hamdard, Karachi, Szabist and NUST. The students are unbelievably intelligent. They spend their spare time developing APPS for android and apple. They are involved in cutting edge technology and no one in the world knows this. Why not send a reporter to Pakistan to look into this. Why not research good things in this nation, rather than just the bad things. At NUST (National Institution for Science and Technology – Islamabad)) there were 38,000 applications for medicine. There are only 83 seats for the medicine course on offer. The competition is unbelievable. In short it pushes the best to be even better. But the world doesn’t know this. Why ? Because no one wants to report on it, or no one knows about it…or both !!
Please do not get me wrong. I understand that news is news, but it is high time that the western world stopped promoting these terrorists and political wars in Pakistan and started to write something that would help the nation. Something positive. If we really care about global partnerships and economic growth, then I suggest we try and give Pakistan a helping hand. There are 180 million people in Pakistan, 65% are under the age of 25. The youth of Pakistan is its strength.. it is like a sleeping giant. If you think that India is a booming nation. I suggest you stop a second and look at Pakistan. Given a little help from the western world, Pakistan can become a dominant economy. She doesn’t want aid and she doesn’t need money… she just wants the chance to be seen in a different light. I believe we have a fundamental obligation to assist. The only question is, who will reach out first.
Warmest regards,
Tony Lazaro
To read the Time article, please click here for a pdf version
Filed under: Opinion · Tags: article, issue, Pakistan, Time Magazine
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Majad wrote:
For purpose of clarity, it should be understood that despite that Indian flag near your post, you’re a Paki!
It is not a question of whether they are angels or not, but rather one of “what is their brief?”. Sure they are there in Pakistan, but their mission is to collect intelligence and convey it to India. It can help in the prevention of terrorist acts in India.
‘
When that brief changes to something different, then the world too would know, just as they today know that ISI is a terrorist organization.
The Quran says either convert, kill or extract jiziya from a non-Muslim. That is what Islamists do.
‘
Hindus have tried to overlook this bestial side of Islam and have been successful in still preserving communal peace. The ones who died in Godhra are a drop in the ocean.
‘
How does Pakistan explain that the population of Hindus in Pakistan (that is after removing the number that moved to India) has fallen from over 15% to the current 2%. Isn’t that genocide?
‘
On the other hand the population of Indian Muslims has steadily increased. Just between 1991 and 2001 the percentage increased from 10% to 13%.
‘
Genocidal Pakis simply have no moral authority in the world to complain about anything!
Observ and Raj too
I personally think that placing such emphasis on “Pakistan” as you do at least partially defocalizes main issues. Problems lie in sets of specific ideas, ideologies, and with their defenders.
Take for example the idea that terrorizing a group of humans is a good thing. Is there something particularly Pakistani about it? Probably not. But there is this well-established idea that an extra-terrestrial creature out there somewhere takes pure delight in terrorizing the hearts of those humans who do not believe in it or who do not submit to its whims – now that is a broad fact not limited to Pakistan alone. Those who do submit to this creature, some of the more enthusiastic ones, legitimately delight in and draw pride from terrorizing the hearts of those who don’t submit.
I would personally place greater focus on that ideology. If and to the extent Pakistan is an epiphenomenon, subservient of that ideology, it will be guided by it and will enable it, but in itself, Pakistan is not such an interesting identity. Nothing more than say any other nation. By understanding ideology one can understand Pakistan, not vice versa.
An excellent article, which may also help many Pakistanis to look at their country from a different angle.
Our society is changing and it will change more with.
Emphasis on youth development, promotion of democracy and protection of human rights can lead our country towards a brighter future.
Majad
Going by the basic premise of partition of Indic land, why are there Muslims in India ? They have been denied their portion of Pakistani islamic paradise by Pakistani government and people since Liaqat ali time . Indics will give 400% gurrannttee of safe passage if Pakistan let Musalmans in india move to the land of their beloved Qaid. We will even pay for it plus 5% extra. Population transfer will enhance peace of mind among many millions of human beings living across the border separate from each others. As mentioned here above , Muslamans in India are keeping part of India backward becuase of their Non indian social, cultural religious obligations.
The political, cultural, social Islam is in permanent state of war with Kuffar states and societies to drag them to medieval level mentality . There wont exist this conflict if kaffirs and Islamics keep themesleves separate , restricted to their own lands and boundaries. They can interact with each other on mutually understood,negotiated terms or keep themselves aloof.
Please ponder over the fact that No kaffir had, have or will ever make claim on any islamic thing as his/her own while reverse can not be said. The reason is good Human beings have the natural tedency to identify with good and beautiful thus making them part of themesves , shared human expereince.
kaalchakra,
Pakistan is important to the future of that ideology. In Pakistan the ideology is going into a chain reaction. Pakistan is ground zero for the ideology. Pakis always considered their country simply a laboratory of Islam. Well the results are due soon.
‘
Ideological disarmament can only take place if the adherents of the ideology realize the consequences. Somalia was another experiment. I did not quite reach critical mass, simply because there was not enough fuel. In Pakistan, there is no dearth of fuel. In fact each year they are enriching more fuel, in maternity wards and madrassas.
‘
India simply has to watch out for the impact of the blast and try to shield herself.
Kaalchakra
Simply failure of Pakistan tentamounts to faliure of Islam in their mind. This false notion will always keep them numb in mind and feel insecure from birth till end. IMHO, Islam will be the self woven web which will slowly suffocate them while shutting down, plugging every small mental opening bringing in the fresh ideal air to breath or light to see the wisdom of humanity. Indics/kaffirs here have no role to play except to cheer this on going islamic perfection buffonery and simply wait for the experiment to end. Keep in mind, Pakistan is Islam and islam is what Pakistan say or do and this perfect Pakistani paradigm is necessary to understand and view the whole picture.
[...] An Australian takes issue over skewed article on Pakistan by Time Magazine [...]
excelleny
to kaalchakra
You talk of Pakistan as if it is just another run-of-the-mill nation. There are problems in all countries – but those in Pakistan have to dealt with differently.
This is because Pakistan is (and wants to be) the show-piece of an ideology that claims to be the final divine instruction for whole of mankind for all times to come.
This pakistan ideology is actually decrepit and dishonest to the core. It is fascism masquerading as divine revelation. So don’t come up with any softie arguments for Pakistan. It is a nation teaching its children to hate and kill and die and go to an arab allah’s paradise since 1200 or 70 years (depending upon whether Mohammad bin Kasim or Mohammad Ali Jinnah are regarded as its founders).
You have to differentiate between common-cold virus and AIDS virus.
(AIDS can also mean Acquired Islam Desperado Syndrome or Agitated Islamic Destructivity Syndrome).
A god who punishes non-believers without realizing that it is the foolishness, fanaticism, fascism of the believers that make some human beings into non-believers – such a god is a dangerous fake.
Allah says
” it is mandatory for any one converting to Islam to read Quran and hadiths first”
An intelligent wise human being will never convert to an ideology or religion that does not guarantee safety, dignity and human freedoms to those who leave or wish to leave it.
The fascist (or not) nature of an ideology or religion is recognized in how it deals with its ex-members.
Many simple-minded people have been converted by being bribed with some sweet words and promises thus becoming mental prisoners in a fascist ideology or religion.
Reading kuran and hadith intelligently will open the eyes of those who have any romantic ideas about islam. If they are really intelligent then they will have no difficulty recognizing the totalitarian-fascist nature of this religion exported from Arabia.
@Observ
Like the devil you are condemned for eternity. Too bad that your life time is likey to be lessthan the average Indian ife. Islam is not an idology, but a way of life with certain basics, namely the worship of one God, who demands obedience. You do not believe in God therefore it is common for non believers to deny, and this is what they have to live throughout THE DENIAL. Tough luck, you are lost in the wilderness not recognising who your friends and who are your enemies. You do not trust chinese and you do not trust Pakistanis and you do not trust other muslim countries, but then you want to make friendship with the Israelis. Areal Sharon once said to a visiting jewish journalist that he recognises that it is very difficult for a jew to live in this world. Do you realy want that Indians should receive the similar treatment in the future. More than fifty muslim countries are now on the globe and millions and millions of muslims live in the christian majority countries. And when a minister President of a very large province says that Kinder statt Inder, children instead of Indians, discourging immigration from the overpopulated India, I did not hear a complaint from the Indian Embassy. The Chinese and the Japanese are not the believers and do not question Islam; what is it that drives you to your own destruction and oblivion?
@Raj
You place so much emphasis on the bunch of people which the Indian Govt. regard as terrorists but ignore the fact that day out and day in Pakistan military is practicing and simulating nuclear strikes on India to paralise the entire country. Is it not in India’s interest to cool down the emotions and develop friendly relations with the neighbour and have a peace treaty instead of putting forward preconditions.
My own assessment is that belonging to the same stock there are elements of radicals in both countries who genuinely want a military confrontation, regardless of the cosequences. On the other hand it shouls also be possible for the majority peace oving people to deveop relation to the extent that the borders become meaningless, says Dr Singh. In Europe we have done it because that is what the people wanted it, no more wars. Why can’t you?
Rex Minor
REx Minor,
“In Europe we have done it because that is what the people wanted it, no more wars. Why can’t you? ”
Well, Europe is going down the toilet because of people like you, who deny established scientific theories like the Theory of Evolution, and instead believe in silly ideas that have been the bane of the civilization.
There is a lot of good things about Islam, but thanks god I am not living in any Islamic country. I am glad to admire them from a distance.
Observe,
Beliefs are not fact and meant for underdevloped minds as they cant comprehend and hold the spiritual knowledge.No true God will want His children to turn dumb and unintelligent by relying on Beliefs and not making effort to understand, know and realize. If God wanted humanity to live on the belifes only then there was no need for Him to infuse intelligence in Human beings knowing very well that it will cause the darkness of belifs disappear with the dawn of knowledge. IMHO, the basic fundamental root cause /difference is the inherrent conflict between these 2 opposite qualities of knowledge leading to bliss and fearlessness thus love and peace and ignorance leading to fear and hatred thus leading to anger, hatred,intellectual impotancy thus becoming food for material, spiritual limitations and inadequancies. A Godhood relying on fear is not qualified to be True Godhood as Godhood is source of Bliss Itself and not an Entity subject to the limitations of medieval mind.
@Rex Minor,
a question. Isnt islam a way of life codified in a book written over 14 centuries ago? So what you are implying is that since it is written down there is no scope for evolution.I would like to understand how written word evolves.
What Raj Too et al are observing is that since nature always evolves, by inference islam is unnatural and consequently this tug of war between the followers of the written word and the rest is whether one should follow the natural way or the unnatural way?
What does the quran say about travelling from one place to another by air?
@Bad Man
Why must you use the gutter language. You reckon that you have the ability to comprehend the thesis of a zoologist? Neither your father nor your school teacher told you that science came after the scriptures. How and why were the factors of the padagogy and this is going to continue as long as the world lives. Even in your country of choice this theory has been thrown out of many schools. Prove the theory if you can.
Perhaps you should be more interested to find out how a Bihari king can get married to many women although he is an impotent and then asks his guru to impregnate his chief Queen. If you accept Darwin then you must also accept that some are biologicaly not fully developed?
Rex Minor
@roamin,
I do not mean to be rude, but Islam is not the subject of the article. What Raj and co are doing is playing the role of the devi’ls advocate, repeating a set of words to provoke their neighbours. I guess the use of word devil must also sound strange to you. Besides, your question already contains the answer. If you do not follow it then we have nothing to communicate with each other.
Rex Minor
Rex Minor,
I am not using gutter language. I am merely asking you why Darwin Theory of Evolution is wrong and the scriptures’ nonsensical ideas are correct. The medicines that you take to cure your sickness are developed on the same principles. Why do viruses and bacteria develop immunity? Oh, well, sorry, I forgot. Let me know what scriptures say about such things.
“Bihari king can get married to many women although he is an impotent and then asks his guru to impregnate his chief Queen.”
Ummm..should we really be talking about polygamy? You don’t want Raj and co. to get on this, bro. At least, that bihari king, whoever he was, had the good sense and sensitivity to recognize his queen’s sexual and motherly needs. What’s wrong with that?
“If you accept Darwin then you must also accept that some are biologicaly not fully developed? ”
You provide us daily with a visible proof of that, my friend.
rex minor,
this you will like
‘
zcommunications.org/benedicts-maledicts-by-c-k-raju
Rationalizing polygamy on the basis that adultery exists in other cultures is nonsensical. This is such a juvenile argument it takes your breath away that some Muslims make it. Guys, polygamy is “allowed”, supposedly in God’s own words, while adultery is frowned upon everywhere. Sure, adultery exists, but it’s considered morally and ethically despicable. And usually the wife would give you a good thrashing if you are caught. Not so with polygamy, the wife is ordered by God to accept it, there’s no discouragement from society on moral and ethical grounds. Imagine what it does to the heightened libido of an unfaithful man. It encourages him to take another wife, a younger partner in sex, and no-one has any grounds to protest. There’s simply no comparison between polygamy, sanctioned by God, with adultery, sanctioned by no one.
No communal, looks like we have your alter-ego..
No community,
I agree with you, which is why I wonder why God didn’t allow polyandry. There may be some doubts about how many women a man can satisfy but there is no such doubt about women.
BM, that’s still me.
Religion is 4th century roman “armed legion” for imperialism and enslavement of others and making them rootless brutes for cannon fodder. Moha Mad and his criminal followers of Arabi land perfected this technique of creating brutes and also started creating Darbari Chikne Gs.
The natives need to throw away the whole … when somebody starts talking about Secularism they need to ask how do you eat it does it go well with rice or chapati? Secularism might be just Malam for G when Abr Haraamic White, Greeen, Red Gs have Maroed ur G. Natives should not allow G Maroed in forst place. That is what Kabir was asking so that Hazarath Kasab and his saintly mates do not come by boat to Gateway of India.
“Hindu-Muslim” harmony or “tolerance” was never the prime aim of either Nanak, Kabir etc like it was for Gandhi.
In fact they were very harsh critics of what they found objectionable in Islam and the nirguna bhakti school reconverted several Muslims.
Kabir in his own life time had disowned his son who had reverted to Islam, Muslims now revere him as a saint.
The following posts by Sarvesh Tiwariji (http://bharatendu.com/ blog writer) are relevant in understanding the school of Guru Nanak, Kabir etc.
All the following I got from various debates.
All time best research on kabIra was done by Acharya Hazari Prasad Dwivedi, Prof and Head, Allahabad University, in 1920s. His magnum opus “Kabir” is still the most complete and unsurpassed work on the life and work on the saint. The book is available in Hindi.
Acharya Dwivedi shows, with undeniable evidences, how kabIra represents that neo-mass-converted second generation which was craving for its roots again. (Kabir’s parents had converted to Islam, along with the enrtire julAhA caste of that time and region). He also demonstrates how kabIra is a continuation, although with different expression and methodology, of nAtha yogI-s.
On Sufi’s one must refer to History of Sufis by Syed Athar Ahmed Rizavi of AMU. Also Jadunath Sarkar’s Nawabs of Bengals sehds some light.
Hindu-Moslem syncretism in kabIra is a myth. At the practice and philosophy level, kabIra is as much a Hindu as, say, dayAnanda. Just because dayAnanda criticised many prevailing aspects of Hindu soceity does not make him a non-Hindu.
Warm Regards
Sarvesh Tiwari
Now you have bypassed my main point, which is that heathen in general did not
care to intellectually tackle Islam, and not just the brAhmaNa-s, but almost all
heathens.
“all bhakti saints had their frame of reference oriented from standpoint of
Brahmin”
“Kabir’s critique of untouchability [in his Bijaka] has invariably a brahmin
posited against the untouchable, and not any other caste.”
This is simply wrong. I guess you are confused between a “Brahmin” and any
saintly guru. Particularly, in exact contrast to what you are saying, Kabir
draws his ideological datum from a totally non-brAhmaNa framework: that of the
nAtha-s, in large bulk. In above 85% of bIjaka he is fighting the strawmen of
“gorakha” and “avadhUta”, and not a Brahmin; himself being an out and out
although heterodox nAthayogI even though he wouldn’t acknowledge it. Where he
is positing an imaginary “paNDita” as his opponent in some discussions in
bIjaka, it is first of all very rare, and then too, it is generally in context
of typical nirguNa pre-occupation of criticising the karma-kANDa supremacy,
shAstra-mongering, tIrtha-importance etc., but to the disappointment of modern
counter-brahmin casteists not so much about untouchability. As for his
self-identity, he is pretty comfortable recognizing himself with his jAti: in so
many of his sabada-s he calls himself julAhA and koirI without anr remorse of
any kind. This is far more amplified in his peer and gurubhrAtA ravidAsa who is
content and at peace with being a “chamArA” which is his self-epithet in almost
all his pada-s; far from any social rebellion against the so-called “brahminical
tyranny”, ravidAsa has no trouble with his “ocHI jAt” (his words), has no
problem giving gurumantra to high-caste mIrA, and has absolutely no quarrel with
Brahmins no doubt again disappointing our caste-sociologists.
“To see, most bhakti movements as a reaction to societal perception of
Brahmanical inadequacies against Islam [vis a vis social cohesion,
egalitarianism and dignity amongst believers, active communication with the
godhead in absence of priestly intermediaries is then understandable.”
One debases bhakti by using marxist model of saying that these movements were
simply ‘social’ (thank god not economical) “reactions”. If you asked bhakti
masters, they would just laugh like mad. These movements were genuine and
sterling human expressions of universal spiritual seeking, nothing more, thank
you. With these though, like any other human activity, there are special
attributes of other human aspects related to soceity and traditions and so on in
which they are situated. And by the way bhakti, especially of nirguNa ones, did
not remove an intermediary between seeker and godhead. It just replaced a
priest with a superhuman “guru”.
Now, since you are already familiar with the work of Prof Rizavi, I recommend
please also read his good work ‘Alakha Vani’, preface and introduction, where he
says that actually it is Islam that got informed by the bhakti and nAtha
movements, and not the other way round. He built his theme further in his two
volume work on Sufi-s.
“I believe, the Bhakti movements most of which originated post Islam could not
develop critiques of Islam since, they, by their very origin, were limited, by
their pacifist nature.”
The nirguNa component is anything but pacifist, indeed they are quite virulent
in their own way at times. Just see them when they criticise the things like
the tIrtha-s, the karmakANDa-s, the learning of shAstra-s, and of course the
veda-s (of which they have no inkling but that does not deter them from
criticising it with worst kind of words). And this does not spring from any
jAti dynamics — no, a high caste nAnaka is as much, or more, virulent than low
caste kabIra in his criticisms of these.
They are not pacificts, they are seculars: they sentimentally put “Hindu” and
“Turaka” in the same bracket vis-a-vis their own viewpoint. This is most
amplified in another high caste nirguNa santa palaTUdAsa, great no doubt, but
secular nonetheless. Read palaTUvANI and you see any secular that comes. The
modern figures like TL Vasavani and others are likewise their continuation:
secular and not pacifists. Secularism is the blinder that stops them from
critiquing Islam, not pacifism. Vasavani even wrote a whole book in praise of
Islam, its prophet and Idian Moslems; just in next decade he got kicked out of
Karachi along with other Sindhis, moved to Bombay and continued selling his same
ideology here without any change.
This is what I say also for the jainist and bauddha-s. Being as hardcore
disputers as any, it should come naturally to them to develop anti-Islamic
polemics. The contemporary Jaina writers were not at all pacifists; in my eyes
they were as bigoted as they come, in continuing their irrelevant criticism of
all things Astika like a broken record. Hardly pacifists they can be called:
their “pacifism” does not prevent them from abusing draupadI and kuntI as just
short of prostitutes. A jaina medieval work would not got completed without
somehow getting into the typical oneupmanship against the brAhmaNa-s. But the
same jainists become dhimmI-s when it comes to criticising Islam, why? Read
saMskR^ita text vijaya-prashasti written by the disciples of famed AchArya shrI
hIravijayasUrI, which gives the glimpses of jainist work at the Akbar’s court.
Here they are so elated explaining how the jaina criticism of braAhmaNa concepts
impressed the pAtisAha: the fools are silent on more pertinent subject the
criticism of Islam.
The saguNa Astika component, on the other hand, possibly because of being closer
to more traditional thought, and also because of they being mostly from brAhmaNa
background, spared both the criticism of Hindu traditions, as well as this
Hindu-Moslem equating. sUradAsa, tulasIdAsa, haridAsa, vallabha and such, do
not care about turaka at all and just focus on their own. My point being, the
absence of Islam-critique does not come from the “pacifism” but something else,
which is for the nirguNa-s their secularism and for the saguNa-s their typical
habit of just ignoring the presence of the enemy.
“castes like the Kayastha despite sufficient intellectual acumen remained in
awe of Brahmin intellect and priestly power”
kAyastha impressed and awed by brAhmaNa, what the ****! Anyone knowing anything
basic about kAyastha knows that kAyastha-s never accepted brAhmaNa-s as any
superiors. They did not cultivate affiliations to what you folks generally call
brahminism. kAyastha is the sole exception in the forward jAti-s that happily
and voluntarily renounces privilages like yaj~nopavIta, with some outliers such
as prabhu-s of maharaTTA country. Steadfastly Hindu by religion no doubt, but
kAyastha never accepts himself inferior to brAhmaNa in any sense spiritual or
temporal, and he is a freethinker and scholar by spirit. They did produce
extremely learned saMskR^ita scholars (e.g. Rajendralal Mitra) and as brilliant
Historians and Archaeologists besides social thinkers and reformers; and still
kAyastha proved to be a hard core Hindu dhimmi that ever was!
“Similarly, the Vaishya despite his education, knew his place in the caste
heirarchy was not eventful. For him, keeping the rulers in good humor, whatever
their faith and ideological orientation was imperative. In less strenuous
circumstances, it is unlikely he would have explored the distinctions between
Islam and his native faiths.”
Come on now! vaishya is happy with whatever is his “place in caste heirarchy”,
anyone heard any complaints from him? Why would his place is caste heirarchy
stop him from studing Islam? He did study many other things. And by the way,
it is finally Sita Ram Goel, a vaishya, and his other vaishya-kAyastha
colleagues of UP-dillI who ignited the true study of enemy, and thus the Hindu
revival now doubtful.
“Absence of organization. The idea of mass religious organization transcending
barriers of geography and ethnicity is usually unknown to “heathens” Built upon
multicultural structures, monolith formation becomes difficult for him.”
Whatever the explanation, you do now see that almost no heathens did do what you
expect brAhmaNa-s to have done. I do consider this as a failing on his part,
and a great failing, but not his alone. Let us move on.
I don’t see any reason you have served by quoting English translation of some
three snippets from bIjaka. This is what I had said: “In above 85% of bIjaka he
is fighting the strawmen of “gorakha” and “avadhUta”, and not a Brahmin; … but
to the disappointment of modern counter-brahmin casteists not so much about
untouchability.”
And I reiterate the above along with some statistics. Of over 250 compositions
in bIjaka, there are total of about TWELVE in which kabIra addresses a “paNDita”
or “pANDe”. Of these twelve, only 2 mention untouchability. The main bulk of
bIjaka, especially the parts where kabIra is most critical and typically acidic,
it is NOT the “caste system” and such, but, like I earlier told you, vAhyAchAra
and karmakANDa. And a large bulk of the rest of bIjaka criticism is addressed
not to brAhmaNa-s but to the nAtha-s (addressed as “gorakha” or “avadhUta”). So
while I am not sure if you still got the point, but what I am saying is this:
The caste business is just far too low on his priorities, almost absent when you
put it in kabIra’s thought as a whole, and the phenomenon of kabIra is not
driven by so-fantacised “caste reaction”, but of a much higher purpose and
complex chemistry.
Now, since you quoted the translation, I must point out something else too. You
quoted:
“from, since you believe in it. Mix red juice, white juice and air- a body bakes
in a body. As soon as the eight lotuses are ready, it comes into the world. Then
what’s untouchable. Eighty four hundred thousand vessels decay into dust, while
the potter keeps slapping clay on the wheel, and with a touch cuts each one off.
We eat by touching, we wash by touching, from a touch the world was born. So
who’s untouchable, asks Kabir. Only he who has no taint of maya”
“The Bijak of Kabir, Linda Hess, Sukhdev Singh, MLBD, p.17 ”
The above is a HORRIBLE, and to anyone having even basics idea of medieval
Northern IE, a
total mis-translation!!!
I have not seen the Hess book, nor desire to, but if above is a right sample
then I just wonder if this is on what our westerns Indologists base their
assessment of kabIra!!! No wonder their conclusions are so ridiculous.
Let me demostrate using this example alone. While you did not quote the original
reference, as far as I can make it by randomly scanning, the above is 41st
shabada of bIjaka (kabIra-chaurA kAshI edition), and the original texts goes
something like:
paNDita dekhahu mana mahi jAni
kahu dhauM cHUti kahAMte upajI tabahi cHUta tuma mAnI
bAde bande rudhira ke saMge ghaTahI mai ghaTa sapachai
asTa kavala hvai puhumI AyA cHUti kahAM te upajai
lakha chaurAsI nAnA bAsana so sabha bhari bho mATI
ekai pATa sakala baiThA.e cHuta leta dhauM kAkI
cHUtihi jevana cHUtihi aMchavana cHUtihi jagata upAyA
kahahi kabIra te cHUti bibarajita jAke saMga na mAyA
Proper translation should be: “Look here paNDita, and consider it over in your
mind. Say, from where does this pollution originate, from which moment do you
consider a being polluting to touch? Isn’t every beaing (‘including you’ is the
sense) that is born, conceived in blood by mingling (of raja and vIrya),
nourished in the womb, and when ready, born by passing through the orifice of
the aShTa-kamala (meaning vagina). (Now, this being the same for every being
that is born) who is polluting to touch? Does’nt That Potter (God) create all
the vessels on the same potters-wheel using the same clay that each of the
Eighty-Four Lakh vessels (meaning all the creatures of different yoni-s) is
reduced to? Then which one would you avoid to touch? By touch alone can you
eat, by touch alone can you wash yourself, indeed the whole business of life
goes on by touch alone! Says kabIra, those who have transcended the mAyA itself
should find nothing untouchable.”
Go figure out the difference between what Hess told you and the above. I will
not go and look up other quotations, but am happy that I dont need a Linda Hess
to tell me what kabIra is saying.
“But she (mIrA) is a woman who faces discrimination from male and brahmin
priests”
O My Goodness! So mIrA, if not a low caste, is accepted in the fold of ravidAsa
because she is a suppressed woman!!! Co-opt and bring in the feminist
“subaltern” where casteist one does not work!
If Caste and Gender Suppression is all that matters, what explains kabIra’s
preferance for a high caste male, that is santa dharmadAsa, to be declared his
heir? What explains AmanadevI, sahajobAI and dayAbAI, who were highcaste
females being appointed by their high caste guru-s as their heirs? What
explains a large high caste male following of kabIra and ravidAsa in their own
time?
” Do you mean to say, no upper caste and brahmin expressed
disapproval of any lower caste sect and all such claims are historical
fabrications of marxist historians?”
Those who expressed disapproval of kabIra and others did so not on grounds of
his caste, but for the principles of his teaching. Same way when kabIra is
expressing his disapprovals, it is not because of the caste of his or his
opponents, but on their principles and beleifs. Seeking “Casteism” in the whole
high affair is, like Ramesh Ji said in a different post, in minds of the
casteists and not in those of kabIra and his opponents.
Let me give you an example. tulasIdAsa disagrees with kabIra that “rAma” is
just nirguNa, is not that prince whose father was dasharatha and who slayed
rAvaNa, so he does critique kabIra in his mAnasa using a dialogue between
mahAdeva and umA, and proposes his own explanantion how “rAma” is both a nirguNa
rAma of kabIra and a saguNa of his own, and also beyond both. But in this,
there is no criticism of his being of lower caste and being a teacher. Why, he
first prays to a low-caste vAlmIki in the preface of mAnasa, seeks first his
forgiveness for having to create another rAmAyaNa while the work of vAlmIki was
blameless and perfect.
“Did it not occur to you that why were precisely such bhakti movements totally
absent for over two milleniums.”
And did it occur to you before you accepted this for a fact that these movements
were “totally absent for over two milleniums”, that the reality could have been
different?
In eyes of Marxists, kabIra and ravidAsa simply happened as a social reaction
out of caste dynamics, and Islam showed them the way!! They just don’t know
that the total lineage of this thought is extremely old. Some however do. Even
a Marxist scholar, though a more honest than the rest, rAhula sAMkR^ityAyana has
shown with his own discoveries of many apabhraMsha texts from nepAla, triviTapa
and siMhala, that were considered lost, that these alternative movements not
only pre-existed in India when Islam was not even born, but have left their
sound textual footprints since at least 6-7th century. And then too, it does
not mean their origin from then – because they had no respect for textual
collections, redactions and scholarship, that their earlier footprints are less
evident or absent. (Even kabIra did not compile any of his words. He was an
illiterate. It was his high caste disciple dharmadAsa who compiled what he
could find, in bIjaka. Same way as nAnaka and others of this line compiled
nothing).
I will give you one example, just using the above of your bIjaka quotation whose
translation I provided above. Compare the argument of kabIra with this 7-8th
century apabhraMsha pada:
brahmaNehi bha jADanta hi me.u
evai paDhia.i e chau ve.U
maTTI pANI kusa la.i paDhanta
gharahi basai aggi huNanta
kajjai virahai hua.vaha home
akkhi DahAvi.a kaDue dhumme
“brAhmaNa-s are said to have issued from the mouth of bramhA; so it maybe in
those days but today aren’t they born just like anyone else, then how come are
they gaing their sacred privilages (by birth)? Maybe it is because of the
saMsakAra-s they become sacred, if so, I say give the same saMsakAra-s to all,
and let all become sacred! Maybe then that it is because of the karma, of
holding kusha and water in hand and pouring dhR^ita in holy fire, if so, I say
allow everyone to do that and gain mukti; But Hey I know, by this type of ya~jna
no mukti is gained, maybe just some strain in the eyes from all that bitter
smoke.”
Now, this, written by not any low-caste, but sarahapAda, a learned brAhmaNa
himself. He criticises his fellow brAhmaNa-s, not due to any “social science”
related compulsion but because of his spiritual-ideological position. (Of
course he was out-casted due to rejecting to follow his jAti dharma, and he is
fine with it)
So such “rebel” tradition is of course not only present, but those who have
studied it find it wide spread, and continued down to the times that marxists
think is a “sudden eruption of social reaction” into something called a bhakti
movement. I can provide you with several examples of pre-Islamic period where
the “rebel” of same vareities are to be found.
“Historical interpretation demands application of social and economic
conditions which fueled bhakti”
And I never said it does not. I am only saying that historical interpretation
does not mean negating the fact that primary driver of bhakti movement is
spiritual seeking, all else was secondary. But then that is not the marxisrt
template of things where all actions are reactions of some eternal class war of
good and evil.
and so on in which they are situated. And by the way bhakti, especially of
nirguNa ones, did not remove an intermediary between seeker and godhead. It just
replaced a priest with a superhuman “guru”.
“Where do I find Palatuvani? Kindly suggest a source”
In two Hindi volumes under that title, published by kAshI nAgarI prachAriNI
sabhA.
“While Sant Kabir’s social criticisms are very popular, there are only very
few takers of his spiritual/metaphysical view among the Hindus and almost none
among the muslims today.”
But unlike the myth, there never were any Moslem takers of Kabir. Among them
though his son is a celebrated “Kamil Faqir” but not Kabir!
Kabir in his own life had disowned and denounced his son Kamal, who is today
revered by Moslems as a sufi. There are Kabir’s own sayings recorded against
Kamal such as “bUDA bansa kabIra kA upajA pUta kamAla”: ‘Says Kabir consider my
bloodline finished, such is the son born to me’; and he publicly declared a
vaishya shiShya, dharmadAsa, to be his successor after him.
On the other hand, all the Sant Mat in North with its numerous varieties, is but the doing of
Kabir’s thought alone.
Bhakta Mala says that the “bhakti” born in South was imported to North by
Ramanand, but it was Kabir who made it accessible throughout “the seven
continents and nine divisions”.
(upajI bhakti drAviDI laye rAmAnnda,
kabirA tAhi prakAsiya sAta-dvIpa nava-khaNDa)
“Kabir Das, for example, called himself a child of Ram and Allah.”
Neither Kabir’s Ram was the Ram of Ramayana, nor his Allah the Allah of Qoran.
Whenever he uses any of these symbols he does so allegorically. For instance
when he says “Nabi” he does not mean the prophet but Aj~nA-chakra. (“kabirA
nainon bIcha nabI hai”) In this he is only following the tradition of sahaja
yogis from at least 7th centuries of utilizing double meaning sAndhya bhAShA
which commoners will interpret in one way and initiated in another.
“This shows that he had never bothered to understand either
the Quran or the Ramayana.”
He never read Qoran. But he did read Ramayana as he refers to many characters
(Ravan, Sita, Dasharatha) and its events throughout his sayings.
“A silence would have been understandable but declaring Allah to
be one’s parent is a sign of Islamic conditioning.”
Of course it is, but why forget that Kabir was born a Musalman, in a
semi-converted first generation Moslem family. In fact, he goes against his new
religion of birth back to the path of his grandparents, the nAtha yoga, is
something to marvel at, not at his Islamic conditioning which is natural anyways
as he was born a musalman.
“But Kabir Das would show his “courage” towards the defenseless Brahmins
by satirizing them even though the Brahmins were facing the brunt of the Islamic
sword”
Just 6/7 out of 300+ padas of bIjaka are addressed to the brahmin, and not more
than 4 are satiring the paNDita (not brahmin), and satiring not for anything
else but spiritual-ideological difference. Such as, in example of “paNDita lAde
baila..”, he is criticising the preference of paNDita for scholarship over
spirituality. In about 3 padas of bIjaka he does criticise what can be called
Brahmin, for the untouchability.
Correction in what I had written:
“But he did read Ramayana as he refers to many characters
(Ravan, Sita, Dasharatha) and its events throughout his sayings.”
Kabir was illiterate, so could have read nothing. What I meant was awareness
not reading.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indi … ssage/8988
The following are a couple of translations from bijak:
Quote:
Kabir to moslems slaughtering cows
O ignorant foolish idiots!
Not knowing Rama to be in each breath
You pounce upon helpless cows
and slaughter them slitting their throat!
You take life out of a living being
and say you have made it halal !!
That meat which you praise as Pak
Have you considered its origin?
Listen is it not produced by that semen
(which is considered dirty in Islam)
but you hapily eat that unholy thing calling it Pak!
You do not see your own dirty deeds
(and call us dirty)
I say murder of his be on your hands
whose teachings you follow
“It is surprisingly brutally written”
Kabir certainly comes out as brutal, harsh, stern, rude, and polemical in his
criticisms; but that is far from surprising. This way of speech, along with
esoteric sAndhya bhAShA, is common with the other nAtha and sahaja mystics of
which line he was but one. This type of crude language is also natural
considering the social and educational level of Kabir and the kind of gentry
among which he lived and worked. However in spite of this, in Kabir we also
find along with this rudeness, a great and gentle feminity which comes out when
he speaks of meditation, love, devotion, longingness, and unconditional
submission towards Rama and towards his Master; in fact this is the dominant
face of Kabir but few care to see that face. One good analysis of Kabir’s
thought that I have seen is from Acharya Rajanish, where he rightly says that in
Kabir as if two distinct personalities coexist, a manly Nanak and a feminine
Mira, both together in one. However, the most scholarly, outstanding and
complete research on Kabir so far is by Acharya Prof. Hazari Prasad Dwivedi
(“Kabir”, Banaras Hindu University Press, 1941), which is in Hindi and not yet
translated in English.
“How can we be sure that that is what Kabir wrote? Are there any references?”
The passage I had quoted in devanagari is from Bijaka, sabada #85; translation
mine.
Kabir – abandon Qoran come utter the Ramanama
What Miracle of Qoran you so much gloat about Qazi!
In reciting that book your folks waste their days upon days, (I have seen) not
one of them gaining any spiritual progress!
Qazi, enough already of your murderous creed, even now abandon Qoran, come and
utter the Ramanama
Bhakti is the last resort let Kabir tell you, but when do Qazis heed in their
crazyness!
You won’t find Gandhi ever telling Muslims to abandon the Quran and take to chanting Ramanama.
Nanak belonged to the same tradition (Kabir is the largest contributor excluding the Guru’s themselves in the Guru Granth Sahib) along with many others.
Is it Kabir Bedi are you talking about?
Heavy_petting,
lol!
no-communal wrote:
Way to go, Mr. Marxist!
‘
So what does Marx say about the sexual and labor exploitation of the (sex-)workers (wives) by the bourgeoisie (husband)!
‘
A man needs just one woman to love, if love has anything to do with the heart. Sure a man can screw multiple women (something Bade Miyan regrets never being able to do due to his inferiority complex) but that has no Godly sanction and is by mutual agreement. Later on when the relationship is over, the woman may enter another relationship with another man. That is not exploitation.
But polygamy IS exploitation. Obviously it is not a matter of the heart anymore! This is a matter of a well to do man having godly sanction to have several women for his sexual pleasure.
At least in adultery the only woman being tricked and thus exploited is only one woman, but in polygamy it is several women on a continuous basis.
But since polygamy is important for Islamists only (today), of course you Indian Marxists would be licking Islamist balls. Just proves the hypocritical ways of you Marxists.
Raj Sweetie,
“Bade Miyan regrets never being able to do due to his inferiority complex”
Hun, I don’t believe in kiss and tell. And, I prefer a bit of class in my relationships. My lovers were people and not just digits. Thank you very much.
As I said, knowing you now, I don’t have any rancor against you. I understand some of your bile now. All I am saying is that the fools for whom you are wasting your time are just using you as pawns in their game. Why support such idiots when you have Mayawati? I really don’t understand.
to rex
Anyone who thinks I am doomed is himself doomed. BTW don’t identify me with what some indian politicians are doing. I am not their press attache. Your islamic pseudo-education has caused you to become a dumb guy. All that you can do is curse those who are not manipulated by your parroting of islamic terror, stupidities and manipulations. The kuran was, is and will be the big source and cause of confusions, conflicts and blood shed. It is a man-made book – that to by a man not very intelligent or wise and not at all honest.
Bade Miyan wrote:
That is because you think some group, some jAti, owns Dharma and has a monopoly over 12,000 years of Indian Civilization. It is not somebody’s father’s property!
‘
In fact, considering how badly the jAtis, which consider themselves Brahmins, Kshatriyas or Vaisyas, have failed to look after Bharat’s national interests in the last 1000 years on the one hand and how adharmic they have acted towards the other less privileged jAtis, it is time for them to make way for latter and individuals from these historically less privileged jAtis to take the reigns of these varnas, and to lead Dharmic renaissance.
‘
Secondly the misunderstanding is that whole jAtis have some birthright to consider themselves of a particular Varna! jAtis have no such right! Only individuals can be Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or Shoodras, but not whole jAtis. No jAti has the right to such a monopoly.
‘
Even on an individual basis, every individual is a conglomeration of all these varnas but one varna may predominate.
‘
Also of course these varnas have different levels of prestige bound with them, but for none of the varnas is the respect to be accorded designed to be negative. A Shudras work may bring him less respect or prestige, but never should his status be considered as worthy of disrespect.
‘
There is much one can say to that, but I’ll leave it at that for now.
‘
Dharma has suffered due to the egoistic attitude of the many historically privileged jAtis (the so called upper-castes) much more than the so called lower-castes. Breaking the monopoly of the “upper-caste” jAtis over the various varnas, over political power, etc. is in fact doing one’s Dharma, thus bringing Indian society again in harmony with Dharma.
‘
The narratives of the West, the Abrahamics, the Marxists does not do justice to the Indian society and civilization.
To raj, Bade Miyan etc.
WAR religions are imperfect and static, finalist-fascist, arrogant and totalitarian.
EAR religions are imperfect but reforming, evolving, changing, open-minded, self-critical etc.
(WAR = West Asiatic Revelation-based, EAR = East Asiatic (Self-)Realisation-based)
Islam is meant to be a destructive and deceitful factor on the earth (by the will of the “all-compassionate” revelator) and the muslims are doing this “job” very dilligently. Muslims will not accept any criticism of islam as valid – they are too arrogant and conceited to concede anything like that. To be a muslim means to live under/in a collective psychosis of self-glorification.
More destruction through muslims (agents of islam) is pre-programmed. You can’t escape it. The kuran contains this program – only the careful, intelligent, peace-loving readers can recognize it.
We need new terminology and not the same old “dharma and karma and jaati and paati” stuff.
It is a pity that non-muslims fight and bicker among themselves and the muslims take/get the advantage of this.
Islam is a totalitarian, fascist, arab imperialist ideology intetion, method and goal. We don’t have to discuss anything on that now since the muslims are proving this everyday and some muslims are actually proud to be doing so and prove it with quotes from the kuran so that those muslims who pretend otherwise can be called munafiks by them.
Islam and muslims want to usurp the monotheistic position and role for their 7th century arabic, tribal, fascistic god-concept through violence, bribery, propaganda and suppression of freedom of thought and its expression.
Monotheism is still far way off. We are all polytheists and that is good so. But muslims don’t have the patience and the wisdom to see this. They want to enforce their brand of monotheism (a very fascistic and cruel brand) with violence, deceit, briberies, overpopulation, emigration, machoism, misogyny, child-molestation etc.
Unfortunately, among non-muslims there are some who wish to appease the muslims and please them and protect their sentiments and feelings etc. That will prove to be bad for all. Muslims who have succeeded in escaping islam are very happy that they could do it with the help of some wise strong non-muslims.
Allah says
” next revelation will be in Urdu”
Islam does not permit polygamy.
Rex Minor
The fact is that God did not even allow Adam to have sex with Eve.
Tou shall not use God’s name in vain, is the third commandment of God!
Rex Minor
Rakhshas too
You are like the annoying fly who never lets go (sigh). Don’t lecture on jati, varna, blah blah blah. The fact remains that you have been oppressed by us for thousands of years. Where’s your rage?
no-communal wrote:
I guess, I come an sit on the biggest pile of shit around!
If you don’t understand it, somebody has to teach you! Capiche!
Well for a start, a casteist like you is really below me to rage over!
‘
If you are asking for some retaliation against your jAti, then it shows you are a traitor to your jAti. Now being traitor is not a bad thing if you are doing it in some higher cause – say of Dharma. But that is not the case. You are doing it in service of all those alien ideologies and interests, whose sole aim is to undermine our over 12,000 year old civilization. So what you need is not just a kick in your balls from your own jAti for your betrayal, you need two kicks in your balls from the whole Indian population. It will help the karma of those Indians were they to give your those two kicks on your marbles.
‘
Now there can be several strategic reasons for ensuring collective punishment, like if they provide moral and logistical backup to the adharmic actions of a few, and there is no way to take down those few directly; or like one wishes to provide an enduring lesson to the whole community which has had a history of acting adharmic, so that in the future they behave better; or like to dispel some notion that they are invulnerable and as such can behave without requiring to judge their actions for their dharmicness.
‘
If however a collective is willing to see the errors of their ways then and is willing to reform and accept overall reform, then there is no need for collective punishment. Then it means they have submitted to the ways of the Dharma. Here you can consider the collective the jAti.
‘
Now the Indian society is willing to reform and the “upper-caste” jAtis are willing to dismantle their thousands year old grip and monopoly on various varnas. They have understood it is not their birthright. This is positive.
‘
The only collective punishment deemed necessary is to correct the old system of privileges, and this can be done through state and civic action.
‘
Also one must understand that in Dharma it is the individual that bears his karmic burden depending on his karmic actions. The punishment should be given to the individual and not to the collective. So if any rage at all is necessary, it is towards “upper-caste” individuals and not the whole jAti, that is, as said earlier, provided they do not support him in his adharmic karma.
‘
So yes, the “upper-caste” jAtis would be thrown over from their thrones and podia. Their monopolies would not be allowed.
‘
So unlike many, I personally am very much in favor of India’s reservation system for the historically very underprivileged jAtis, in order to ensure a somewhat quicker justice. When the correction is complete the reservation system can go!
‘
So there is no need for rage! The transformation is happening! The issue is not one of revenge but always one of justice.
‘
When I spoke of returning the 3000 temples back to the Hindus, which are today masked as mosques, I did not talk about revenge, but of justice, I talked of doing what is Dharmic.
‘
Now the pseudo-secularists, the Marxists in India have already sold out their soul to alien interests. They want one section of the population to react to another section of the population in rage, to undertake collective punishment without looking at the context, and to deny Dharma its due. They don’t want overdue corrections to take place.
‘
That is why you on the one side want to prolong this aDharmic status that those temples remain mosques on the one hand, and on the other hand you ask of me where is my rage!
‘
That is why I say you are ideologically an Indian traitor!
‘
Krishna said all those who support adharmic individuals and Adharma are also adharmic, and let the punishment rain down on all those who sided with the Kauravas.
‘
My rage is against Adharma and those who do not let the Dharmics to correct the existing Adharma!
Religion is Abra Harami concept at best to control others by “wordy” BA (Hon) or Madarassi GMasti. The focus is on others. Dharma is inward looking…focused on yourself. Abra Harami Religions such as White (4th century Christrianity), 7th century Arabi Green GMasti, 19th century Marxy GMasti and todays wallstreety Chu..Panthi only goes on searching for others G…so when it comes to the subcontinent it tries to smell the shit of native spirituality (so called casticism, kiiling of female fetuses waigera waigera)
Knock on the door at 11:00 PM when I had just settled to eat my dinner after working in the VLSI lab in Nov 1986..
One of the 2 guys asks, “Do you want to get saved?”
I – “Saved from what? I am trying right now to be saved fro hunger”
Guy -” From Sin. You are born in Sin.”
I “How do you know that?”
Guy – “Because Jesus had to die on cross for you.”
I – “I did not ask for him to do so”
G- “It does not matter. Are you Hindu?”
I – “you can say so”
G- “you are castist, bride burning…” waigera waigera
I – “yes agree”
G- ” Christianity is the best”
I – “I agree, but I am too hungry right now, does it go well with rice or bread?….About saving souls…did you jump over the semi nude bodies of girls and vomiting boys on College St while coming over to my apartment…those drunk and drugged souls need more saving”
MacauLaid BA (Hon) & MarxLaid LLB are just stinky Mullas without beard and topi. We need to ghusav our big erect dostum in their open ready rectum after applying Malam of secularism.
Mental too
I have no time reading all that. You seem like mentally unstable in need of help.
no-communal,
It is not important for you to read it. But why did you pose me a question, if you wanted no answer! You did not just pose me a question, you demanded an answer to it three times!
‘
So who is mental here?
Allah says
” those who reject my revelations will burn in hell”
Raj TOO
If you ever think of having a debate without being personal, or insulting, let me know. Until then I would appreciate if you don’t pester me.
When Papilandi feudals and army is choding relentlessly poor AllahRakhi and her kids how come there is no Marxy/Mao revolution happening yet there?
“So long as the PA exists as a professional army sir they may not be able to fight other armies but effective when it comes to squashing some Jihadi Abduls balls .Why Iam particularly stressing about a class warfare ala Maoist in the garb of Islam(in my previous posts) is it will effective destroy the PA Afsar-Abdul relations very effectively and at the same time the feudals will be hunted like bunnies .Most importantly the PA disciplined will get phucked (this is the most important sir) irrespective of US funds and weapons the army discipline is the main hurdle in the destruction of PA.The Islamic maoist feudal uprising must specifically happen in Punjab and Sindh sir,,enough Pakistan is wrecked beyond repair
”
What do you think NonCommunal G?
The reason is Marxy/Mao GMasti is nothing but Abra Harami Darabari GMasti .. EvanJihadi soul savers, UNDY TV, Star, JNU Popaga.dus get funding from the same Abra Harami source. Papilandi Army is also funded by the same source.
no-communal wrote:
you responded to a post that I addressed to Bade Miyan, and then you say I am pestering you.
‘
no-communal,
you’re very mental, as you put it!
‘
As far as insulting goes, pseudo-secularists and Marxists just don’t get as much as they should! And for casteists, like you, I don’t want to be stingy.
Pest TOO
Look at your post above, Raj TOO: January 27, 2012 at 2:21 pm, and see who is pestering whom. No I did not respond to a post you addressed to BM. Don’t be a pest as well as a liar. Now, stop “pesting”.
Raj,
I urge you to practice yoga so that you get some coherence in your thoughts. Just read your two posts above and see how they contradict each other. In one you are against collective punishment but in the other by saying that Brahmans, Kshatriyas, etc. have failed, you are doing just the same.
I have said before that now I admire that you have traveled so far. Why not take this opportunity to study the western concept of individualism in great detail. What’s the point of talking about Dharma and such from germany? The hindutva people that you are willing to die for will never give you your fair share. You don’t have to look far. When BJP was in power in UP, there was a governor or speaker who asked for his seat to be purified because a dalit had formerly occupied it.
““upper-caste” jAtis are willing to dismantle their thousands year old grip and monopoly on various varnas. ”
You are completely wrong here. They say that but they are not going to do it unless it’s forcefully seized for them. I hated laloo but there was one positive thing he did. He broke the monopoly of upper caste for good, and he didn’t do it by appealing to their change of heart.
“When I spoke of returning the 3000 temples back to the Hindus, which are today masked as mosques, I did not talk about revenge, but of justice, I talked of doing what is Dharmic.”
There you go again. One has to move forward. That is how time progresses. What will be gained by getting those temples back? But I will support it if there is a parallel demand to start reparations to Dalits and other such oppressed group for the harm done to them by the upper castes.
Would you support that?
Hey fellows,
We recognise that because of its population size every sixth person is likely to be of Indian origin, but it would seem that the australian article has attracted out of proportion number of Indians debating the leftover from their ancient Dharma and karma regulations.
An australian praises Karachi simply because Pakistanis were hospitable to him. This is a typical australian mentality. You invite te guy for a drink and he is prepared to travel on his cost several hundred kilometres to share a drink with the host. You are welcome to see them in October in the Munich Bearfest!
Now let me take you out of your miserable and thousands of years old social issues to the land where humans first organised themselves into a settled form of community, cultivated grain and raised livestocks, established cities and encouraged diverse skills and occupations. Yes, you guessed it right, it was the arab land where ancient Egypt, Sumerans, Assyrians, Babylonians and phoenicians set their great civilisations, its traces still being uncovered to this date in archealogical sites throughout the region.
Raj TOO reckons that latest archeology finds indicate that the Indian civilisation was older and the arabs obtained their knowledge from the Persians? Perhaps he is right and history will have to be rewritten.
Three great monotheistic religions were born in this land, in time spreading to all corners of the world.
The followers of Islam later rapidly founded a new and dynamic civilisation that for centuries was the only bright light in an otherwise culturaly and intellectualy stagnant world. While Europe was living its “dark age” the Arab/Islamic civilisation was at its apogee making contributions to science and the humanities that later paved the way for the rise of Europe to prominance.
My appeal to the Indian bloggers is simply to recognise the above history and then engage in one to one dialogues on merits and demerits of individual cultures and individual people.
Those of you who do not know should also note that the arab lands today are the richest in the world, while its people suffer and have lagged behind on account of colonisation and later by dictatorship. Today the Khardijal is not letting them loose and want to participate in their future by infiltrating incognito with cash via NGO’s and oppostions. The assets the arab countries have is its people, two third of them under the age of twenty and this is a force which has broken out with the demands of freedom and dignity. This revolution is likely to reach the Karachi shores in another decade and then karachi may regain its posture of the last century.
Rex Minor
no-communal wrote:
You spoke of “jAti, varna, blah, blah”! So that was the post!
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You cannot hide that you are a mental!