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Pak Tea House » Democracy, Islam, Pakistan, Politics, Society, Taliban, Terrorism, Uncategorized » The Curious Case of Difa e Pakistan Council

The Curious Case of Difa e Pakistan Council

Difa-e-Pakistan is an Urdu word meaning Defense of Pakistan. Difa-e-Pakistan Council means a council willing to/responsible for defending Pakistan. The semantics dictate that the said council should comprise of representatives of the armed forces, the para-military forces, domestic law enforcement agencies, defense ministry and foreign ministry. In fact, the esteemed council that has come to the fore recently consists of none of the above. In the words of the journalist Ejaz Haider, it’s a “circus”.
Much has been written about this mysterious group over the last few weeks by people much more well-read and experienced than myself, thus I would restrict myself to a basic understanding of this group and the online presence of DPC.


The website of DPC lists 36 parties as part of the council. It includes single-digit member parties like Muslim League Zia, Mohsinan e Pakistan, suspicious-named organizations like Pakistan Water Movement, Tehreek e Ittehad, Christian Community( of where?), Sikh Community,  Hindu Community Lahore and notorious people like a certain General® Hameed Gul, Hafiz Saeed, Malik Ishaq, Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman Khalil, Ahmad Ludhyanwi and last but not the least, representative of Imran Khan, Chaudary Ijaz.
General Hameed Gul, a former spymaster of Pakistan, was responsible for forming IJI(Islami Jamhuri Ittehad-Islamic democratic front) a similar group of religious organizations in 1988 to compete against Pakistan Peoples Party, turned against U.S when the funding for ISI was stopped, was an architect of starting insurgency in Occupied Kashmir, was removed from his position by Benazir Bhutto in 1989. Hafiz Saeed was a teacher of Islamic Studies at University of Engineering and Technology in the 1980s when he and a fellow Professor Zaffar Iqbal formed a new organization which came to be known as Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the pious). It was directly funded by Saudi money and collected donations across Pakistan. It was mainly involved in sending fighters trained by them to Kashmir for targeting Indian Military personnel and cantonments. It was declared a Terrorist Organization by both the United States and United Nations. Most Recently it was involved in the November 2008 Attacks on Mumbai.

Malik Ishaq is the leader and founder of Al Qaeda-linked Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. He remained in jail for 14 years facing a number of cases at the antiterrorism court in Lahore charging him with hundreds of murders. He was released from Jail on July 15 because “evidence against him gradually decayed and disappeared”. Molana Fazl ur Rehman Khaleel is a founder of Harkat-ul-Mujahideen(HuM) and current leader of Ansar-ul-Umma, which is accused of being a front organization of the banned HuM. Khalil was a signatory of Osama bin Laden’s 1998 fatwa called the International Front Against Jews and Crusaders. Regarding the sudden arrival of this bunch, investigative journalist Mujahid Hussain wrote, “In November 2011, the ISI Chief asked the Lashkar e Taiba and Jaish e Mohammad to speed up their campaign against India and to mobilize Islamists across the country on the platform of Difa e Pakistan, so that a clear signal could be sent to the international community. Fellow travelers such as Shaikh Rasheed and Hamid Gull were reactivated. A real estate tycoon in Islamabad and some rich businessmen of Karachi were asked to offer inducements. Also, The Sunni Tehreek is being propped up by the ISI as a fully fledged political party and has been tasked to garner the Barelvi vote.”

Traditionally, the parties that make up this pot-pourri are not known to be very modern or having an Internet presence. The interesting thing is that the council as a whole is more efficient in its online presence than the sum of all its constituents combined. This paradigm shift can be witnessed as DPC has its own website where all the speeches from their rallies are available and latest news related to their concerning issues are updated continuously, they have their own facebook page with 1459 Likes(till now) and a twitter account with 306 followers.
All of this fanfare is despite the fact that they are a “banned” organization(If you believe Interior Minister Rehman Malik).

The Facebook page of Difa e Pakistan Council tells us that
“Difa-e-Pakistan Council is an Umbrella Organization of more than 40 Religious and Political Organizations destined for the Defense of Pakistan and envisions the great nation as the Fortress of Islam.” It also informs us that “DPC Does not endorse the understandings and manifestos of organizations and entities that come under the umbrella of DPC. “Difa-e-Pakistan” is a single point cause to defend Pakistan by all threats it faces internally and externally.”

Upon a little digging, it is visible that the bigwigs of the council are not much involved in the Internet crusade rather it is a new batch of “Jihadis” or Internet warriors that are controlling the accounts of the council online. One particular ally is the hyper-nationalist website “Pakistan ka Khuda Hafiz”(Translation:- May God Protect Pakistan). The people behind PKKH website are Ahmad Qureshi, Shireen Mazari, Gen Hameed Gul and Maria Butt(fashion designer and recent convert to this ideology courtesy a Mr. Zaid Hamid). Ahmad Qureshi, Shireen Mazari and Zaid Hamid share a particular vision about Pakistan. They are fiercely Anti-American, Anti-India, Pro-Khilafat(Caliphate), Pro-Taliban and use the jargon of Islam to lure people towards their own agendas. They do not like democracy or politicians as a whole, and harbor sympathy towards Pakistan Army. They are known to be stooges of Military establishment and have always advocated a military solution to all problems.  Just to keep things in perspective, the following words were posted by “Syed Zaid Zaman Hamid [Official]” page very recently, explaining their philosophy in full,
“If the politicians are for sale and hostile powers are ready to buy them, to hell with this democracy. Let the country be ruled by a Benevolent dictator on the model of Khilafat e Rashida! Till that time, army and ISI must make sure that these treacherous politicians do not sell the country to hostile powers”.
Thus, while the Jalsas(meetings/processions) of  DPC are being filled by banned militant organizations, the Internet front is being held by Neo-Jihadis who are followers of Zaid Hamid, completing an “unholy alliance”. They oppose the MFN-status being awarded to India(without an iota of understanding about the WTO) and have a jingoistic attitude towards the rest of the world.

For the record, this is not the first time that establishment-backed forces have been joined together at a platform. It has happened previously in the 1970 elections, in the aforementioned 1990 elections when IJI was formed and in the wake of 9/11 when a similar-sounding “Afghan Defense Council” was formed which paved the way to formation of MMA(Mutahidda Majlis e Amal) in 2002.

The irony of this “internet war” is that most of the constituent parties have strong views about “Pictures” being Un-Islamic and they have, in the past, opposed Television and Radio, even Loudspeakers. The hypocrisy of it all cannot be ignored when the same people use loudspeakers all the time, to deliver hate-filled sermons, use Television for their own propaganda and now they have resorted to the internet, to attract the younger generation. These people are against the tenet of “Freedom of Speech” but they themselves are abusing their freedom of speech to spew hatred and bigotry. The focus of their efforts is to reach out to the Urban Middle class population of Pakistan which has got no clue about their own identity courtesy a paradox that is our “Religious Nation State”. Textbooks of Pakistan are filled with lies that cause narrowing of young minds from an early age, hatred against other religions is evident and ideologies are thrust upon immature minds resulting in a paranoid mental state. The textbooks re-enforce the image of this country not as envisioned by Jinnah but the one envisioned by General Zia(who can be considered Godfather of all the parties that today constitute DPC).

All hope, though, is not lost regarding the situation in Pakistan. The fact that almost 6 million Pakistanis using Facebook and only about 1400 like the DPC page and only about 1 lac people like the Official Zaid Hamid Page (where he has tried to re-invent himself as Syed) offers hope to the moderate factions of the society.  It is the responsibility of the moderate elements of civil society to coalesce and try to control these elements from going out of control by raising awareness and educating people. People should be educated about their role in a democracy. Efforts such as being done by Centre for Civic Education, PILDAT, Pakistan Youth Alliance, Teach for Pakistan and Youth Parliaments should be highlighted. Media has to play a very important role in this regard as well. They have to give equal representation to progressive forces and avoid excessive coverage of the trouble-makers. Government of Pakistan should also play its role by introducing necessary changes in the curricula (as has been proposed by SDPI) and taking effective measures against the “banned” organizations. This is a long war and it is not going to be easy.

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81 Responses to "The Curious Case of Difa e Pakistan Council"

  1. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Of all the vice that this nation has, I always use to think that being a numb/dumb, indifferent society is the worst of them all, nothing moves this people , not the military, not the worst demockracy, not even the skyrocketing fuel price, leave alone the bla bla of modernity and civil-talk that goes past high above their heads.

    Movement, radicalization and the’ will to do’ depict the very energy and soul of a society; it is the thing to be cherished. The question is ‘who moves this people?’, ‘what unites them? , ‘what motivates such an unmotivated nation?… the very ideas that have this power should be analyzed by thinkers so they can be used as tools for positive and real change.

    I agree with the writer, in his disgust on apparent rise in Mullah-culture, which has shared responsibility in stagnancy and defection of our society as a whole, but to trash the whole thing in one waste-bin would not be wise. We should be analytic in a scientific way and try to find the electrons of life and energy under the microscope of our wisdom.

  2. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela
    I hav not particularly ‘trashed’ them, I deliberately avoided asking questions like Why on earth do these people think they can ‘defend’ Pakistan? Who has even asked them to do so? Why are there no women in their ranks? What is their AGENDA.!!?(apart from the usual blah blah that is present on their website). I have instead focused on the surface, on profiling the key people involved and who is running their online ‘operation’. I have also mentioned some bits from history when similar ‘alliances’ were forged by military establishment. This is a brief overview, a systemic study is definitely required but I have also tried to give my tuppence about the causes of their popularity i.e
    1. Syllabi
    2. Non-stop propaganda
    3. Help from the deep state
    these 3 things look different but in fact they are inter linked, inter-wined.
    I’ve also mentioned some people who are trying to change the status quo, and that they should be appreciated.

  3. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    oh dear oh dear oh dear….
    looks like some people are trying to justify another army coup sometime soon. if democracy has to survive in pakistan, then these apolitical, quasi-religious groups have to be banned.
    TRUST is the biggest key in democracy. if u cant trust them then vote them out again and again but groups like this will opportunistically play the old “saving pakistan” card!!
    this is the worst news i have heard from pakistan in a long time.
    at least musharraf was not pro taliban.
    if these guys manage to influence politics like this then there is no telling what the future hold for pakistan………..and therefore india( read nukes in the hands of these monkeys)

  4. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    AMA

    the questions i was referring to were like; why do the masses gather under a slogan; what makes the masses as a whole, alarmed to the extent of movement; can the masses move over sheer madness when they remain inert in most real issues.

    the answers would be like; while it is rather impossible to move a single person from his perspective position, it cannot be taken that the masses will move on hypocrisy; the extent of the alarm should be measured; defense must be a real issue.

    yes i agree, that at the surface, there are faces that may symbolize fanaticism, radicalism or fundamentalism, all of which represent force and energy; and people ought to rely on these instead of docile institute that talk of love and peace( the one’s you mentioned), in times of dangers.

    still this should not happen, the masses should have faith in their established military, and rely on it for their defense, if the situation was so they should have volunteered to the army.

  5. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    fingolfin

    Pakistani democracy has been very much like the American democracy,the Americans can only vote for the republicans or the democrats, who are joint-handed at back stage, so the agendas never change.

    Here we have the M.League or the PPP, joined together back stage and somehow we can’t vote them out.

    Taliban is not a problem for the people of this country, the masses take Taliban as an exact equivalent of a ‘conspiracy theory’, i.e. something you can put the blame of every wrong on.

    and who did you call the nuke monkeys, us or the Indians.

  6. YesSar United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    By design Arabi Armed Legion has nothing to do with spirituality, it is all about gaddi grabbing. Only fools in their own paradise think -

    ” if democracy has to survive in pakistan, then these apolitical, quasi-religious groups have to be banned.”

    What will be banned in pakiland is common decency, honesty, genuine spirituality, native languages and so on – all good stuff which makes 2 legged animal a man.

  7. YesSar United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.
    Violation of clause # 3.

  8. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneelashahzad
    no i beg to differ. pakistan’s democracy is not based on the same principal as America. i mean yes you have a president system as apposed to a parliamentary democracy(ours) but your system is not a 2 party system. different parties can spring up and contest for the top job. once democracy gets entrenched in your country this WILL happen. imran khan’s tehrik-e-insaaf is an example of what i am talking about. as you give your democracy more time, more parties will emerge i guarantee you. then what happens is that the incentive to stay in power is better governance especially if you have a hawkish opposition( this is also something i guarantee as power is the greatest aphrodisiac). for that to happen you might might have to tolerate inept governments from time to time. but it is this ineptitude that will be the silver lining for other parties to get created.:) that is the beauty o a democracy. IT IS A SELF BALANCING ECOSYSTEM. you just have to give it time.
    i was hopeful of a good democratic future for pakistan but now that lies in shambles:( dif-e-pak is really really bad news. i hope everyone realize the gravity of this. especially with the big names involved like hamid gul, zaid hamid etc, this group clearly menas business and that business is power.
    as far as the nukes statement is concerned, you misunderstood me. by monkeys i did not refer to india or pakistan, i was referring to this new group difa-e-pakistan. i am afraid that if a coup does take place by this group, pakistan’s nukes will fall into their hands. this does not bode well for india and paksitan especially considering the ideology they espouse. what with zaid hamid’s Ghazwa-e-Hind and all.

    this really s the worst news i have heard from Paksitan in a long while.

  9. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela
    Taliban are HERE. They are a reality, not a conspiracy theory. I would suggest you to read Amir Mir’s book “Talibanization of Pakistan” or “Punjabi Taliban” by Mujahid Hussain(available in both Urdu and English). As you said, we should not blame Taliban for everything, but we should also acknowledge that they are people from among us and we definitely should examine the roots of this radicalization.There is an institute in Lahore which has held talks for the last 1 year(each week) on the topic “Tracing the roots of religious extremism”, and I have attended many of them, very informative and meaningful discussions with specialists of this field including journalists, researchers, Islamic scholars, even a Peer sahb, college professors, social workers, historians, In short a lot of people talking about different aspects of this phenomenon. Those lectures/Talks were recorded and are in process of being uploaded on YouTube.

  10. observ Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to abdul majeed

    The pak army protects the taliban – even when some of them go roguish and kill a few soldiers (or minorities). Pak army officers (esp. the top ones) are not much bothered about ordinary pak soldiers (from poor expendable familes) getting killed.

    Pakistan could not have been created without slander, hate and lies against hindus and bootlicking of arab and turkish marauders. Hence Pakistan cannot be maintained without these lies and bootlicks being doled out in ever greater amounts. The pak army cannot like honest people.

    The whole of Pakistan lives in this mood that the taliban are going to take over. Even the pak army thinks so. Hence all are trying to be on good terms with them. If the talibanis commit crimes then these crimes are to be blamed on USA, India, jews etc. That is the consensus among all the ruling elite of Pakistan. The belief is: muslims killed by talibans are guaranteed a place in allah’s heaven. Non-muslims killed by taliban (and the defintion of non-muslim is very flexible) go to hell, as they are supposed to anyway sooner or later, sooner the better. That is the result of islamic education. Any muslim who denies that is either practising deceit or self-deceit.

  11. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Fingolfin

    a few thing you have misunderstood too. Difa council has never vowed for power, it is an umbrella gathering many parties,more than 30, many of whom would be contestant for the next elections too. and a coup cannot be expected from an assembly of such diverse groups as here, if that happens it will be called a revolution not a coup, coups are small group phenomenon.

    And as far as i have seen, Zaid Hamid is not in any rally of DPC, nor in its official list of members nor is he in the PKKH thing, whats this confusion; why is he everywhere even if he’s not? (thou i have my own doubts about the gazwa e hind hadith).

    And about democracy, good that you believe in it, its beautiful, but it hasn’t worked, the premise of the irrational voter given by Milton Freedman and others says that ‘voters are highly uninformed about many political issues, especially relating to economics, and have a strong bias about the few issues on which they are fairly knowledgeable’.

    So it all end up in mob-swaying through attractive slogans, back door diplomacy, horse trading and match fixing.

    the only hope in democracy is that some good guy will sway the mob this time.

  12. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela
    yes you are right about the fact that a coup is generally executed by a small group.
    but you know, the thing is, this group might suddenly create a consensus and destabilize an elected government. i am just saying that if these guys get in league with the army and with their backing, topple an elected government, then who is to say what can happen?! absolutely anyone could come into power.
    see i know i am talking only conjecture here but you need to think about the worst not as a pessimist but as a pragmatist.
    so the question i would ask you aneela is that if power is not the aim of this group then what was the rational behind its creation? how does it intend to “DEFEND” Pakistan without power?!
    i might sound paranoid here but i am VERY suspicious about the creation of such a group. its name clearly sounds like it wants to justify a take over of Pakistan on the flimsy justification of “saving” it(the only saving Pakistan needs is from radicalizaion, a fight that Pakistan’s own people will have to fight).
    as far as democracy is concerned then let me assure you with one f my favorite quotes,” YOU CAN FOOL SOME PEOPLE ALL THE TIME AND ALL THE PEOPLE FOR SOME TIME BUT YOU CANT FOOL ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME”. aneela, if you EVER have any doubts about a democracy then remember this quote.
    but if you want to go into details then i can safely tell you that your inhibitions with democracy could be applicable to India also! and yet it is not. hang Milton. just look at your neighbor. we grapple with problems on a scale Pakistan can never dream of(thankfully). poverty, illiteracy, unemployment etc etc the list is endless! and yet the one thing that we have ever deserted is our democracy. you know why? because people of a democracy always respond to good or bad governance. they worry about the old roti, kapda,makan. they do not have to be politically aware. if these things are covered then the governance is good if not it is bad. their equation is very simple and i must day a very accurate barometer of good governance. people can raise slogans as much as they want, but the illiterate man will only be impressed by the leader who provides him with education, food, shelter and hope.Pakistani people have also shown that they are not swayed by sloganeering which is why the fundamentals have never won an election……so far. remember the quote.
    and anyway, if you are pessimistic about democracy, what else would you want?

  13. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    AMA
    ‘The roots of radicalization’ that’s the problem, there is so many different reports about this group that you have to be biased to make any final assumption about them, if they weren’t an invisible, unidentifiable entity or entities, there wouldn’t be a hundred propositions about their origins.

    Are they implanted or sold-outs, foreigners or locals, terrorists or revenge-ists or sadists…. one thing is common sense for me and sociology will back me, that normal settled people do not turn zombies, for no reason, the moment NATO troops land in the neighborhood.

    Terrorizing and killing are not normal human behavior, murderers go to jail, and they are a small digit in the broader community, this large scale, no-target killing is not for fun, there have to be big money and dirty motives behind them. for such heinous acts one should look for real big crooks in the world community. Pak army does not have the teeth for such ax-grinding.

  14. observ Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to aneela

    You don’t have to look at the world community.

    It is Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, China, arab countries who are provding the mental, poltical, financial and militarist support. The USA was called in by them. Now USA is an excuse for justifying terrorist violence. The real mayhem interested parties are not the USA. They are the brothers and sons of pakistani muslim women.

  15. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    fingolfin
    yes, but aren’t you being pragmatic in Pak case and pessimistic in India’s.,you say ‘education, food, shelter and (false)hope is enough for the illiterate (masses)’, i must say you place human dignity, equal rights to resources and awareness at a low height. Pakistan is not fulfilling any rosy promises of democracy but neither is India. Democracy should not be another name for stagnancy.

    and don’t be afraid of the DFC, i don’t see any mullah with his sword only his beard.

  16. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Moderater
    am i allowed to answer Observ’s provocative remarks??

  17. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    of course India is fulfilling its promises!! have you not heard of India’s growth?! have you not heard of the millions of people India hass pulled out of poverty?! India is the second fastest growing economy for almost 2 decades now. how is that stagnancy?!
    and i will never be pessimistic about India. as far as India is concerned i have nothing but optimism because it is a SELF BALANCING ECOSYSTEM.
    and i am not placing equal rights to resources at a low priority. thats the thing . you cant do that. not in a democracy. roti, kapda, makan include equal rights etc. and it is always harder for developing countries who have less money to be a welfare state.
    what you lack is patience. you have to have that. that us how the west can be welfare states today. one you build your industry as a democracy then you have the money to spend as a welfare state. india has a long way to go before that but it is in the perfect direction. im surprised that you doubt this!
    and you have not answered my question on what other form of government you would prefer.
    democracy may not be an excellent form of governance………..but it is the best there is.

  18. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    aneela
    the problem with your democracy is that it has never had time. the start will always be slow……. grueling even. but you will be on the right track for the future. your democracy has always been chocked never allowing it to blossom.

  19. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    well everything that is standing(existing) on the earth is part of a self-balancing ecosystem.

    41.6% OF Indians live below poverty, does that define the bliss of a beautiful, long democracy. Most of the growth of the Indians has been due to out-sourcing, this is a dependent growth, some Indian tycoons are becoming multinationals, these things rise the growth index, but the masses remain unaffected. BUT whats the fuss’ i don’t have anything against India, our people and yours may be suffering the same plights at the middle/low classes.

    I am not giving an alternative for democracy yet, i am just saying its not enough, giving a blind eye to our problem, we are ‘believing’ to blindly on the idol of democracy like its a god.

  20. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela
    until you don’t resort to insulting anyone or start a fight, you can write anything. I second his comment though(but that’s my personal observation). Since the 1980s Saudi money has flown into Pakistan, there is clear proof of that, even UAE has financed few madrassas. and yes, they are our own brothers and sisters, its sad to know but its a true hard fact.
    and it is a big mis-understanding that “people picked up guns when NATO landed”. The first suicide bombing in Pakistan took place around 2002, there was no NATO back then. Car bombs, the predecessors of suicide bombers were common in Peshawar and one of them even killed the founder of Al-Qaeda, sheikh Abdullah Azzam in 1989.
    regarding your point that terrorizing is not normal behavior, Professor Mubarak Haider has written a whole book on the “collective schizophrenia” present in Pakistani Society. You say Mullah only have beards, not guns, but you only see what is visible on your TV screen. These DPC people(almost everyone of them) has a team of personal bodyguards with automatic rifles, to protect them from rival factions. The 35 thousand people that have been killed in the last 10 years in Pakistan have not been killed by “global powers”, they have been killed by OUR OWN brothers and sisters.
    DPC people have never been against the terrorists rather they have symapthized with people like OBL, Malik Ishaq and people of his ilk have themselves killed so many people.They have always been backed by military establishment, as has been proved by the Asghar Khan case. DG ISI Assad Durrani is on record that he issued funds for the IJI leaders in 1989-90.

  21. YesSar United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.
    Off-topic+offensive language towards fellow commentator

  22. YesSar United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  23. YesSar United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  24. Milestog United States Safari iPhone says:

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  25. observ Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to abdul majeed (and aneela)

    Many thanks for your courageous honest stand. That is truly human – beyond all narrow limits of religion and chauvinism (which say my ideology/religion can never be wrong, it is always the final right one).

    I was a little surpised – I must admit – that a pakistani muslim finds my analysis (I claim no perfection or finality in my analysis) as not a provocation, but worthy of being put to a calm debate.

    Neither USA nor India want mayhem in Pakistan. There are forces within Pakistan – islamic ones – who want that so that they can enforce their totalitarian, violence-glorifying, cruel, death-adoring (hence blasphemous) brand of islam.

    Thanks to Abdul Majeed for pacifying those, whom the pakistani education system has taught to regard those who criticize islam as provocateurs.

    With islam from Arabia having aggressed into our land and exterminated hindus from a large part of it – it is we non-muslims who live under a constant provocation by the followers of this arab religion, who refuse to see the faults and defects in their arab religion. It is we non-arabs and non-muslims who live in fear. We have to see how muslim children are being taught to be proud of the injuries and insults which have been inflicted upon hindus over 1200 years. The hindu-muslim problem in in India, not in Arabia, and it is not 60 years old, it is 1200 years old. And it was started one-sidedly by the muslims. Even the violence in the Kashmir problem was introduced by Pakistan one-sidedly and suddenly (unprovoked by India) on the 20th October 1947.

    Indeed – the killings in Pakistan are being done by the brothers and sons of pakistani women. No matter what the outsiders do. Even if all the accusations against USA, India, Israel etc, were to be true (and they are largely not true) – it is the pakistani muslim who does the actual killing/bombing and the teaching/training for that comes to him in his own mosque, madarassa, TV, radio, street gang etc.

    Vietnam suffered far more under evil USA politics – but as a nation not motivated by islam but by buddhism – they never went berserk against the USA. The muslims should remember that before accusing USA or India or Israel.

  26. Dan Qayyum United Arab Emirates Google Chrome Windows says:

    FAO the author of this article:

    PKKH are an independent alternative news and analysis website. The people listed above act as advisors to the PKKH editorial board and neither PKKH, Hamid Gul sahab, Ahmed Quraishi or Maria B have had any sort of link, contact, or working relationship with Zaid Hamid or Brasstacks for around a year now.

    We support DPC in principle as it has united various religious organisations under a single platform and believes in defending Pakistan’s ideology and sovereignty from internal and external threats. DPC’s own media team manages its social media properties independently.

    For any questions, please feel free to email us on dq@pakistankakhudahafiz.com

    Dan Qayyum
    Editor – PKKH.tv

  27. Lady Guinevere United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  28. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Dan Qayyum
    Dear Sir, thanks a lot for taking out the time and clarifying this. I have mentioned PKKH as an “ally” to the DPC internet team, they are probably inspired by your efforts or have similar ideologies, but I understand that they are not exactly affiliated with your website.
    As far as Zaid Hamid is concerned, Mr. Ahmad Qureshi is virtually a student of him so even if they are not exactly in contact, their mind-set is similar/quite similar. Miss Shireen Mazari and Mr. Hameed Gul also ascribe to almost the same ideologies, that is the only reason I’ve grouped them in the same category. I do not have any problem with your website doing its job of arousing patriotism in Pakistanis but I have strong ideological differences with the “advisers” which as an independent citizen of Pakistan, is my “right to disagree”.
    Regards
    AM

  29. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Observ

    there is a problem in your approach, you want to be a free thinker, free of the shackles of pre-belief and pre-judgment, but all your ideas about Pakistan and its people are based on very hard prejudice.

    I am never going to advocate that the Pak nation is an absolute good or right in any case, it is comfortably entrenched in all the vices it could possibly have harbored, but it has its good things too.

    I am against the very notion that any one society can be absolutely bad, and could be made the target of blind hate and ridicule. Like, AMA mentioned a ‘Professor Mubarak Haider’ saying there is a “collective schizophrenia” present in Pakistani Society.’ Now! i don’t consider that readable literature, for me this is an equivalent of prompting a ‘conspiracy theory’, against not the US but this time against this small nation.

    Do your consider all the races living in this country to be under some special, divine spell of being void of all goodness, do you propagate love and humanity for the whole world and accept even the homosexuals on the premises that ‘if man is doing that, it must be good’ and while you analyse every other nation under the dictates of sociology and naturalism, you caste you vote on this nation purely on undefyable, unalterable belief that it is and it always will be ‘evil’.

    I am very fond of history, and to my misfortune it never fails to teach me the bitter lesson that men have behaved violently and savagely in all human societies; time and evolution have failed to tame man down from his viciousness; evil and goodness have always survived side by side and while pure evil or pure goodness are rare commodities (only reserved for the noble prize winners),human society remains as a mix of good and bad even to the level of individuals.

    Freedom of choice is also a relative term, man always has it and never has it; 1200 years ago or today, war and violence are phenomenon conducted in days, or hours; people have to eventually let on their own, and they will eventually settle down on their inner inclinations and desires, if a religion is imposed on them they will change the very theme of it, if democracy is delivered to them they will turn it into a de-mock-racy, they will mix the idols with the One God and the One God with the many. So in the end, wherever you see you will see piles of filth but also humanity shimmering within its folds.

    And don’t preach docility and compliance to a nation left with slight signs of freedom and vigor. and i can only sympathies with your fears by saying,’ don’t be afraid, the Pakis won’t hurt you”

  30. Raj TOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    aneela wrote:

    I am never going to advocate that the Pak nation is an absolute good or right in any case, it is comfortably entrenched in all the vices it could possibly have harbored, but it has its good things too.

    aneela,
    things are always on a spectrum! So it is true, what you say that one can’t see things in black and white.
    .
    The question is what is considered black and what is considered white!
    .
    If the Pakistanis like a shoal of salmon all are moving towards some goal they consider white, but the rest of the world knows is black, then what kind of statement can one make?!
    .
    Not all the Pakistanis have reached their goal (which they consider white, but the rest of the world knows is black), so obviously some Pakistanis are still near the point (which most Pakistanis consider black, but the rest of the world could consider white), so some acts of humanity and culture do take place!
    .
    But that is what Pakistanis are, a shoal of salmon, without much individuality left, moving towards Islamic Piety, keeping their common sense shut down in favor of conspiracy theories and ghairat and Ghazwas!
    .
    You are trying to marry modernity (scientific curiosity, democracy, individual rights and freedoms, rule of law and due judicial process, free expression of cultural and ethnic identity) with the memes that Islam encourages – submission to the word of the Ulema, adversarial attitude towards the non-Muslim, imperialist expansion!
    .
    You will find that Sovereignty of Man and Human Intellect cannot be grafted on top of Submission to an Imperialist Ideology like Islam.
    .
    As such Pakistanis would remain captured in this storm for all eternity!

  31. observv Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to aneela

    I take my ideas about Pakistan by reading pakistani newspapers only. So no question of my being biased against Pakistan. I have never quoted any hindutva or anti-muslim sources or articles. I never had to. Newspapers produced by muslims for muslims in a 96% muslim land are the source of my information.

    10 years ago I didn’t bother a damn babout Pakistan, islam etc. But now I know that the warnings that were given about islam and muslims are largely correct, valid and have to be taken seriously.

    The Rest of this comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  32. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Raj TOO
    Looks like your spectrum has only 2 colors, do you wear color-free goggles. and what gave you the idea that Pak is the salmon and you are the rest of the world.

    The rest of this comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  33. obsrver Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  34. fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

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  35. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted.

  36. observr Germany Internet Explorer Windows says:

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  37. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

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  38. Chikna Lifafi Aryan G United States Google Chrome Windows says:

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  39. Chikna Lifafi Aryan G United States Google Chrome Windows says:

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  40. Raj TOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

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  41. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela+observ
    the discussion was going fine until u had to get “Islam” in. those comments will be moderated. I would also want to tell u that u people can talk all u want about “political Islam”, the concept that Islam should be used as a political system and whole society should be molded by it, a concept which was brainchild of Maududi and Syed Quttub, the ideological fathers of modern-day Al Qaeda and Muslim Brotherhood.

  42. aneela shahazadi G United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Religion is Darabari by design! Spirituality is going to wipe out this medieval brutality because now publication is not so much capital intensive. Earlier only Darabaris controlled what people can discusss and here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PUYdOSHsSs

  43. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    AMA
    is this a sectarian platform of some sort, though i read Maududi a lot but i am not bound to agree with him totally, and neither are you.

    I try to keep the discussion to religion as a whole, compared to no-religion, but people start using big words directly against one specific religion (from Arabia), if a question about an apple is put it can’t be answered with a banana.

    The problem begins when people start nauseating their hate, can’t you see the difference between logic and sheer bullying of words.

  44. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    aneela,
    to get back to the topic, all i want to say is that if you have a problem with democracy then you wont have any problem with groups like difa-e-pakistan. all your misgivings about democracy stem from the india example so all i want to tell you is that india is in a much better situation than what it was in in 1947.much less poor, much less illiterate, much ,ore industrialized. and only with big industries can poor people find employment. wealth trickles down slowly but surely in a democracy and that is why India is able to better all its problems and cotinues to do so. and all economies are interdependent in this globalized world so your point that India’s outsourcing is dependent is true but frivolous. ALL economies are interdependent on each other. china’s on america’s and vice-versa, india’s on america’s and vice-versa etc. even the west started out poor and became great nations because of their democracy. india is on that path and pakistan should be too.
    and no not everything is a self-balancing ecosystem. i was talking politically and Pakistan and other dictatorships are not self-balancing at all. there is no security in governance. nobody can call states that run on the ideology of political islam ar political any religion for that matter, as self-balancing.
    what i have been trying to say all this while is that groups like difa-e-pakistan are what prevent Pakistan from becoming balanced. but since you do not rely on democracy, this threat wont make itself palpable in your eyes. however, since you have been unable to provide a better substitute to democracy(nobody in the world can), we can all agree that a stable democracy is the best thing for Pakistan and therefore a difa-e-pakistan is the worst thing that can happen to pakistan’s future stability.

  45. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    As we believe in naming and shaming poeple, aneela, your name was used by following email address.
    assh@gmail.com
    and there is nothing even mildly “sectarian” in discussing Political Islam. and regardless of who starts the discussion, religion-bashing and religion-promotion are banned.

  46. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    AMA

    how do you draw a line between discussing and promoting, if you could clarify that with an example that would be educative.
    Political Islam is not sectarian but ‘maududism’ could become so.

  47. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Fingolfin

    Pity you just can’t get out of the box of ‘I love India’ in your analysis. OK India is great.

    I din’t say that democracy is to be abandoned, i said its not enough, it has too many loop holes, it’s not a complete system, every nation has its own unique type of democracy, its just a tool that can be used in a good or bad way.

    In most countries where democracy is constitutionally adopted, the oligarchy of a small sector of powerful men, families or organizations remain constantly able to maintain their power, and unfortunately with time and evolution of society this control becomes stronger not weaker.

    So if your are not already for ‘globalization’ of ‘resource control’ and suppression of the weak further and further into ‘false, illusive’ promise-base political slandering only on the basis of ‘you are the one’s who voted us in’… then democracy for me becomes another faulty religion not a free thinker’s aspiration for the dignity and progress of humanity.

  48. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    After 5 days of experience with these deletions I have to say this:

    The discussion is being strangulated.

    A comment should be removed not merely because the moderators think so, but it must also be demanded by some participants, who feel abused. If a commentator is attacked using obscene, filthy, insulting, abusive language against him then he may ask the comment to be deleted.

    How can you discuss islam without politics, history, Pakistan, creation of Pakistan (the why and how of it), human rights, womens’ rights etc. etc.?

    If we have to stick to a topic strictly then the discussion gets narrower and narrower and becomes useless, since every theme is related to many other happenings (which may appear to be) outside of the topic.

    Too many comments getting deleted although contain no obscene, filthy or abusive words – that is a strangulation which makes this website pale.

  49. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @raison
    islam and politics(esp pakistani politics) are very different things, u have to remember that both islamic parties and political parties have used Islam as a political tool but it does not mean Zia usurped human rights or women rights JUST because of Islam or that Pakistan history was shaped by certain religious inclinations of the ruling elite. You can definitely comment WITHOUT bringing Islam, without using it as an argumentative tool.

    As far as your point about threatening posters is said, we are thinking about publishing posts that are being deleted from different threads.to let people know what we don’t want on this website.

  50. AbdulMajeedAbid Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @aneela
    that is exactly why we decided to ban talk about religion. One thing is clear, whatever you might say, people here or anywhere aren’t gonna change their religion because of that. And when you are a follower of any religion, you will do your damnedest to prove it to be the best ever religion and bash other religions, that is not how constructive debates take place.

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