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Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » Murder of History Part III

Murder of History Part III

by Abdul Majeed

In the last few weeks, we discussed some of the prevalent myths regarding Pakistan History. This week, we continue debunking more myths and providing some alternate versions by using multiple sources.

 

1. Mujahidin had gone to conquer Kashmir in 1948.

The first war between newly-independent Pakistan and India happened in 1948 A.D in Kashmir Valley. It is postulated that the prime objective of Mujahideen(mostly from NWFP) was the liberation of Kashmir. Actually,when they reached near Sri Nagar, they forgot their “objective” and started criminal activities. Regarding this, Owen Bennet Jones in his book writes, “At this crucial juncture, when Kashmir was ready for the taking, Pakistan paid the price of the haphazard nature of its operations in Kashmir. Rather than striking forward, the tribesmen became distracted by the opportunities for plunder. Their increasingly lawless conduct had a disastrous consequence. The local Muslim population, rather than seeing them as liberators, began to fear them and, far from providing help to the tribesmen, turned against them. These developments and the bad international press Pakistan was receiving as a result of the invasion dismayed the government in Karachi. Officials not only disowned the tribesmen but also obstructed them. (Owen Bennet Jones, Pakistan:Eye of the storm, Yale University Press; 2002; Chapter 3; page 65)  Sherbaz Khan Mazari, a seventeen year-old tribal leader from Balochistan who tried to take some men to join in the fighting, later recounted that when he tried to enter Kashmir, ‘I was stopped by Pakistani officials who told me in clear cut terms that I would not be allowed to cross into Kashmir. It became clear that they thought we were intent on partaking in the plunder that was taking place.’ (Sherbaz Khan Mazari, A Journey to Disillusionment, Oxford University Press,Karachi, 2000, pp. 11 and 12.)

2. Our Ancestors arrived from Arabian Peninsula.

This claim has been made by the Ghairat Brigade since long. They have tried to downplay the linkages that we have with our subcontinental ancestors and tried via popular media and textbooks to somehow prove that our ancestors were not people living in the Subcontinent for thousands of years rather they came from the Arabian Peninsula.
A look at the genealogies of two of our founding fathers i.e Jinnah and Iqbal tells us that Mr. Jinnah belonged to a Sindhi family that had migrated to Gujarat.(Akbar S Ahmad, Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity; Routledge, 1997; Chapter 1,page 1 ) while Iqbal belonged to a Kashmiri Sheikh family. Also, there was a considerable population consisting of Jatts and Gujjars before Islam came to our part of the world. Most of us are descendents of those early converts. The people most likely to have come down from Arabia are the Syeds who claim to be direct descendents from the Prophet (PBUH). Interestingly, in a research conduted by University College London, Y chromosomes of self-identified Syeds from the Indian subcontinent show evidence of elevated Arab ancestry but not of a recent common patrilineal origin For more on the castes of our country, visit this page.

3. Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman and his Awami league wanted to break the country.

In its report on the events of 1971, the Hamood-ur-Rehman Commission argued that: ‘We must give full weight to the fact that before the elections he[Mujib] offered the Council Muslim League and the Jamaat-e-Islami a number of seats in East Pakistan which would have still permitted him to obtain the majority of the East Pakistan seats but not to have a clear majority in the whole house. Quite clearly his purpose was to be able to play the role of the leader of the largest single party without being under pressure for (sic) members of his own party to go through with the Six Point programme on the basis of an overall majority in the house. This fact clearly established that Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, at that time at least, had not decided on secession’. (Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report, part I, chapter VI, para. 96; Dawn; 13 January 2001; page 21)

 

 

 




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74 Responses to "Murder of History Part III"

  1. Saira Pakistan Netscape Navigator iPhone says:

    Very interesting article, but surely you mean “ancestors” and not “descendants” in describing the origins of our nation. Please check a dictionary.

  2. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    When I took history in PK, boring as it was, it remained more Mughal centric, invaders from Afghanistan – Turko/Persian speakers… even Khalid bin Kasim’s landing in Sindh was marginalized although he was a true Arab blood.. Unless something has been revived/revised, it was not very polarizing. Furthermore, our parents also taught us history during meal times. Putting blame of all ills on “Ghairat Brigade” is at best a reflection of defeatist mindset, and a lazy, self-exonerating lament.
    I have read a lot of criticism of history books but have not read a single good text that provides alternative to the school curriculum. So my dear why not write a good history book – I will sure buy one copy…

  3. Abdul Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @Saira
    thanks for pointing out the mistake, much appreciated.
    @Anwar
    Sir I would recommend reading “The Murder of History” by K.K.Aziz and for history, If you want to teach it to your kids, get the book sets of history written by Dr. Mubarak Ali, available for about a 1000 Rupees per set, from Sanjh Publishers Lahore.

  4. wonderer India Safari Mac OS says:

    @Anwar

    There is enough material available on “good” history. Listen to Ayesha Jalal on

    http://www.radioopensource.org/ayesha-jalal-pakistans-revenge-of-the-40s-then-the-80s/

    and Farzana Shaikh on

    http://www.radioopensource.org/this-year-of-india-5-and-the-chronic-crisis-of-pakistan/

    besides other material for reading on the net and in books.

    It would be best to read “Murder of History” by K.K. Aziz

    To my mind it is more important to find out WHY history is falsified, and the effects of that. I feel the reason is a feeling of shame to face the truth, and the results are catastrophic.

  5. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    I am familiar with the books and the talks – thanks. What I intended to clarify was the fact that parents also have to take responsibility of raising their children instead of leaving them at the mercy of poor schools and later complain. Secondly, putting blame of all ills on GB is plain silly. I agree with wonderer about finding out the reasons as to how and why the history got distorted.
    Note that the distortions came about by educated people who could write and not by the members of the GB who are mostly uneducated and unsophisticated people. Note also that when Pushto Academy was built on the remains of a Buddhist Stupa in Peshawar University, it was an affirmation of a 900 year old history and it was proudly stated as such.
    It is also true that Zia infected the nation with Saudi/US sponsored religious disease – did he not die long ago? Why could not the post-Zia governments (including BB’s)fix the problem…
    The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars but in ourselves…. a famous line!

  6. Sonam United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Anwar,

    Agree with you that the distortions came about by educated people who could write and not by the members of the GB who are mostly uneducated and unsophisticated people. The sooner we change our
    hate teaching introduced by Zia will be better for our country.
    Otherwise we are heading for the disaster.

  7. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    PTH: Back to the old good format after trying out bunkum new stuff.

    As regards history-writing among muslims – it too is bunkum.

    Every muslim knows (and should know) that if history (of islam and muslims) is written honestly and taught honestly then islam will collapse.

    Violence, threats of violence and lies have become so common-place among muslims that muslims don’t notice them as such anymore. Lies told and taught often enough end up becoming part of the genetic set up of a society. All muslim or islam-based societies are ill in this manner.

    Monotheism is bunkum – and leads to totalitarianism.
    Finalism leads to fascism.
    Arab-centric ideology causes arabic ethnofascism and imperialism.

    Don’t waste time on superficial discussions.

  8. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Correction:

    . The word ‘mujahidin’ was not invented at the time of tribal forces entry into Kashmir. The tribal leaders were asked to help free kashmiri muslims from the cruel Raj of the Maharaja. The Commander-in-chief of Pakistan rag tag military outfit( mostly scattered at the time) Gen. Gracy refused to allow regular army units into Kashmir while the Maharaja was in sirinagar. The tribal force was headed by the Waziri commanders, the most fierce fighters in guerrilla war and hand to hand combat, followed by other tribes and lastly by the volunteer force from Swat valley with some artillery pieces. The tribesmen were allowed to keep their war booty as has been the practice in all ancient battles fought by the muslims against the non-muslims.
    Pakistan military was supposed to enter and take over the administration of the State once it is in the hands of the tribal force. No one from the regular military or the civilian guide accompanied the tribal force. Nevertheless they overran the entire Kashmir valley, defeating the resistance and capturing the capital, making the Maharaja run for his life, his rag tag army disappearing in the thin air. This was beyond the imagination of the professional military leaders in Pakistan and therefore were late to react and take over the administration. The wild tribesmen were now facing the following situation:

    . communication with the Kashmiri civil population, waziri pashto versus the kashmiri languages,

    . not able to differentiate between the muslim and the non muslim population

    . what to do with the booty of live stock and other valuables, which was to be transported back to their territory(some tribal forces who were at the rear had already started returning with their booty, upon hearing that the state has been freed.

    This is when they, the lead tribes decided to return without waiting for the incompetent Pakistan military units to arrive in motorised vehicles in formation, using the proper roads. In the meantime. Indian army started entering the Jammu and Kashmir territory as well. General Gracey the military chief of Pakistan military was faithfully keeping his superior, the chief of the Indian army informed of the tribal forces take over of Sirinagar. In other words both Pakistan and Indian military simutaneously initiated their movements towards Kashmir. Let us therefore not blame the tribal warriors for any mishap or lack of coordination. They do not read Montgomery texts on wars and do not know how a man with a gun in hand surrenders. Pakistani administration provided them nothing except food and transportation where possible upto the kashmir border.
    (Incidently, these waziris are the same tribes which Pakistan current military wanted to defeat in six days and the yanks want to defeat with their drones.

    2. The ancestors of most of the muslim population in India were hindus and budhists, with the exception of Pashtuns, baluchis and Kashmiris. They have very scarce ancestory from arabs and turks.

    3. the statement is more or les accurate. The late Mr Bhutto, was an erratic and a machiavellian political personality and together with his military partners has messed up a lot and finaly got hurt by the lunatic military man. People of Bengal were the golden part of Pakistan, with limited economic resourse but a very rich intellect and culture.

    Rex Minor

  9. Hayyer India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The ancestors of Kashmiri Muslims were Kashmiri Hindus and Kashmiri Muslims have no hesitation acknowledging this. They not only retain Hindu surnames such as Mattoo, Dar(Dhar),Parray, Tantrey and Khandey among others they are proud of them. Many Kashmiri Muslims have Pandit retained as a surname-thus Ghulam Jeelani Pandit, Mohammad Shafi Pandit. There are very few Kashmiris Muslims of outside stock, usually Syeds and such like called Mallah locally and treated with suspicion.
    Pashtun were also Hindu or Buddhist at some stage before they were Muslim. You may recall the case of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

  10. Hayyer India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The Sheikhs in Kashmir are recent converts from Pandit stock. Thus Sheikh Abdullah whose grandfather was a Pandit. Mohammad Iqbal the poet was the grandson of a Pandit called Sapru who converted or was forced to convert in the last days of Pathan rule in Kashmir.

  11. Sikander Canada Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The verbiage on Kashmir has been debunked by Rex Minor. Either way, it’s not like the Kashmiris like the rapists and plunderers they currently have.
    It speaks to the diversity of Islam that Muslims come from many backgrounds. It means regardless of your background, one can come closer to the truth. I just don’t see the relevancy. Most Pakis recognize that their ancestors might be of non-Muslim stock, but which Muslim doesn’t have a non-Muslim past? How is that even relevant? This all presupposes the pseudo-academic view that they know the ancestors of an incredibly diverse nation. Btw, Jinnah was of rajput background, Iqbal of pandit background, if one wants to play up caste differences. Besides, the cultural, spiritual, linguistic and civilization narrative of Muslims in South Asia is due to its connections to central asia and persia. You seem to want to ignore history for political expediency. Suffice to say you haven’t really debunked anything, only made your political ideology more blatant in ignoring facts.

  12. Hayyer India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Neither rapists nor plunderers I have to tell you. There are less than a handful of incidents of rape in the last 22 years, the most notorious being the Kunan Poshpora incident of 1990 February, the authenticity of which has been questioned.
    As for plunder, it is actually the other way around. Over 2 billion dollars worth every year flowing into J&K.

  13. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    The overwhelming majority of Pashtuns are descended from the sakas, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars. They formed the three gigantic migrations from central Asia during a span of 600 years from 1st century B.C. to 5th century A.D. which swept away everything before them,overwhelmed by them and submerged in them. The religion of Islam was adopted by them during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammad(pbuh).

    Rex Minor

  14. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to rex and similar “thinkers”

    you are spouting the standard Pakistan ideology stuff about Kashmir.

    It is always:

    “We muslims never did anything wrong. We muslims are the only noble guys on the earth. Everything good comes from islam and islam only. we muslism alone know what is freedom, courage, faith, toughness, intelligence etc. We muslims alone know what god will and we alone can do his will. Since our god is the only true god and creator hence everything on the earth belongs only to us” etc. etc. ad nauseum.

    Aren’t you muslims sick of your own self-glorifications?

    I mean, a mentally healthy person would not be able to carry on such self-glorifications for so long, for so many generations. Self-deceit and deceit must have some decent limits.

    Islam is a one-man show by an arab named Mohammad in Makkah and Medina in the 7th century. It has now become a fascism centred around him and his so-called holy book and an arabic ethnofascism and imperialism upon non-arabs.

  15. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    @raison
    Why are you blowing soap bubbles? What causes you to suffer? What is your question? What Noah, Ibrahim, Moses and jesus(peace be upon them) preached was Islam, long before Mohammad (pbuh) was commanded to clarify the religion of Islam to the believers and the non believers.

    Jews had refused to accept Jesus(pbuh) as the Prophet and later the so called christians had declared Jesus(pbuh) as the son of God and brought his statue in the place of worship. The religion of Islam was created by God almighty on day one when the universe was created.

    Before the arrival of scriptures people simply worshipped Sun and the Moon as well as animals and their statues. The fact hat there are still a large number of people in the world, in billions perhaps including Indians non muslims who have not yet been enlightened is no one’s fault. God alone is all knowing. But please do not single out muslims from the believers and start flogging them everytime you get disturbed. This has nothing to do with their faith or caste or any ethnic background. All humans are sinners and we commit them time and again promising each time not to repeat. The Chinese, the north Koreans and the Americans are not all muslims and look at thes actors and tell us if you find them as a model, or better still, look at your own country which is committing billions in buying war machinery, while millions go hungry in bed at night? Is this something to do with Islam?

    No certainly not. Nothing comes out of nothing! Arabs are the great employers of the Indian and Pakistan manpower and if I were you, I should thank them!

    Rex Minor

  16. Raj TOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex Minor wrote:

    Arabs are the great employers of the Indian and Pakistan manpower and if I were you, I should thank them!

    For many thousands of years, Arabs have lived off the trade between India and Europe, acting as traders and looters.
    .
    Today they are the great exploiters of Indian manpower. The relationship between an employer is not one of gratitude. Indians and Pakis work and they get paid. There is no question of gratitude. It is Indian ingenuity and hard work which has built up the whole infrastructure in the Gulf.
    .
    Unlike Pakistan, Gulf remittances play only a very minor role in the Indian economy.

  17. aneela shahzad Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    i guess most of the things have been said, except that the text books do not tell us anything about our Arab ancestry or any ancestry, but some of us have false fully taken historical accounts as anthropological accounts, their mistake.
    i would that AMA quotes where they have been written as so, in textbooks. The conquerors came but most of them without even their own families, they settled here and the local masses converted.
    AMA is a good murderer of history himself, when he put all sorts of non-issues in the textbooks of his imagination.

  18. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to rex

    You prove that islam causes muslims to become bootlickers of arabs. You have demonstrated this about yourself in each of your posts.

    Arabs have money (obtained without doing any hard honest work, but only by blackmailing with the help of petroleum) and hindus go there to work honestly and earn their livelihood. That does not make arabs superior to hindus. Quite the contrary. It only proves that arabs can only live at the cost of non-arabs. But a bootlicker of arabs like you will not understand this.

    Muslims have this habit of declaring that islam existed since Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham etc. Such grab-tricks can fool only those who are already idiotized through the islamic bribery and the intimidation and the totalitarian control over muslim minds.

    I don’t think muslims can come out of the self-glorifying lies into which they are born or brought up.

    India has to buy weapons because of Pakistan and China – both of which are nations with expansionist, imperialist and fascist ideologies. China’s imperialism into Tibet (and claiming Kashmir and AP), islam’s imperialism into the indian subcontinent and its unedning greed for land and power – that is the cause of India having to purchase weapons.

    You can deny that – but that does not change this reality in favour of your propaganda and bootlicking of arabs.

  19. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    Rex,
    So you think that the Afghans became Muslims before the Persians? There can be many theories about the origins of Afghans but there is no doubt that you are descended from Balaam’s ass.

  20. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Bad Man

    Knowledge is a virtue and it harms no one. During the days of the Babylonian captivity when the jews were scattered, one of the tribes settled in the Hari Rud area of modern south afghanistan. Pashtun legend states that they accepted Islam during the time of the Prophet when a group of their kinsmen(jews) living in Arabia sent word to them that the true Prophet of god as prophesisd in their scriptures had appeared in Mecca. The Afghans, the story goes,sent a delegation to Arabia headed by one Imraul Qais who met the Prophet, embraced Islam, came back and converted the entire tribe to the new religion. The Prophet was so pleased with Qais that he gave him the name of Abdur Rashid, called him Malik(king)and Pehtan(keel or rudder of a ship)for showing his people the path of Islam. The story proceeds; Qais alias Abdur Rashid alias pehtan had three sons named sarban, Batan and ghurghust. Most of the present day Pashtun tribes claim descent from these three persons. Batan had a daughter named Bibi Matto. She fell in love with Hussain Shah, a prince of turkish origin, ……and so on.

    The story of the Pashtuns and their origin is complex and has interested most famous historians including K S Lal(Afgan immigration in the early middle ages) Bellow, Longworth Dames,, Sir Olaf Caroe(The Pathans), Morgenstierne, Lt Gen George McMunn(Afghanistan from darius to amanullah)as well as muslim scholars and historians from AlBaruni, AlUtbi and later Niamatulla (Makhzan-i-Afghani) and Hamdulla Mustaufi(Tarikh-i- Guzida)

    Why should this story interest a non-muslim individual, a skeptic by birth, the one who denies the existance of the creator of humans and the Universe. This interests me, a muslim who has been researching the causes of these people being invincible. No one in history has overpowered them to this day and they have brought great empires to their bitter end, the last one is on its knees and stubbornly clinging to their torso while still bleeding.

    Rex Minor

  21. Hayyer India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @Rex Minor:
    Sakas, Kushans, Huns have all passed through Pashtun territory into what is now Pakistan and India. The Gujjars are not known to be a separate invading tribe, though they become one in India ruling upto the middle parts of India as the Gurjara Pratiharas. The Sakas too extended into central India and had their own separate kingdoms. The Kushans had a might empire stretching from Central Asia to east UP. Their descendants(of Huns, Kushans and Sakas)are found all over India Pakistan and of course Afghanistan. The Pashtun are known to predate the these invaders, and they became Muslim much after the Prophet’s demise.
    There are Hindu Gujjars as well, and in plenty in India. Most of the descendants of Kushans and Sakas are Hindu in India. The Pashtun were Hindu and Buddhist once.
    You forgot to mention the Greek invaders and their genetic input.

  22. aneela shahzad Pakistan Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Rex
    i also read anthropology, your research is deep. i have read of early jewish settlers in Afghanistan and Khasmir, they must have traveled close to the central asian ranges saving themselves from the different persian empires/civilizations spread from Syria to the coast of Makran, do you think these jews could possibly have been the so called Aryans too; if they had travelled as early as after Abraham or any other connection!

  23. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    rex minor never misses any opportunity to ridicule and humiliate hindus (and India) and show off his bootlicking of arabs. This is not a minor trait in him but a major perversion caused by his upbringing in the arab religion. Rex reeks of this servility vis-a-vis arabs again and again. I have pointed that out to him many times and yet he continues with this habit (or is it an addiction?). An intelligent and self-respecting person stops such servile behaviour at least after it is pointed out to him. Come and live in the 21st century and stop glorifying 7th century Arabia.

  24. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Hayyer
    The origin of Pashtuns is extremely complex as it is and I deliberately tried to separate their similarity with the origin of Rajputs, Kashmiris and the rest who have over time integrated and got submerged with others and no longer in my view hold a unique identity. Prior to the arrival of Islam as a religion per say, people in the sub-continent were without doubt non-believers, mostly Hindus, Budhists or plain kaffirs in their entirety. Some tribes in the region were even discovered in the 20th century completely cut off from the mainland around them and were found in their little world of peace and harmony without having any affiliation with hinduism or Budhism.

    @Aneela Shahzad

    You could be right in your assumption. I recognise that to know alone about the Pashtuns by disregarding its neighbours around them is extremely complex. Their way of life, their security system for every tribe, and a collective one, their close system of no go areas( a typical procedure for every modern army ) and their use of language for security needs, is fascinating and yet a mystery for the outside world.

    The large number of tribes living on both sides of the so called durand line(Pak/Afghan border) such as shinwaris, Mohmands, Mahsuds,waziris, Bannuchis, Orakzais, Khattacks, Afridis,Bangash and Yusufzais etc., some trace their origin to Aryans, while others to greeks who had come with Alexander, some to the jews and still others to caucasians. The kalnari tribes of the waziris, Bannuchis, Khattacks, Bangash, Orakzai tribes, Afridis and the rest sprung from an indigenous stock not Pushto-speaking but became fused with or overlaid by Pushto and Pushto speaking peoples learning in the process the language of the dominant race.
    However, as I said earlier the western scholars maintain that overwhelming majority of the Pashtun tribes are positively descended from the sakas, Kushans, Huns and gujjars. And in theie view no one could retain their origin of Aryans, Jewish, Greek, Iranians etc etc. The former is straight and crisp and neat. You follow the line of great historians such Bellow and will soon get trapped with white Huns and the origin of Rajputs etc.

    Rex Minor

  25. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Rex Minor
    i had sincerely thought that you were a guy of some intellect but i was apparently mistaken. you have clearly put into perspective the fact that “religion is the opiate of the masses”.

    i mean in all honesty do you seriously believe that Islam is the “one true religion” and all others are people who are currently hoodwinked and need to wait for realization?! wow that really is extremely presumptuous.

    i find it incredibly difficult to imagine why you are unable to accord other religions a certain degree of respect. why can you not acknowledge that other religions might have wisdom that yours does not? why other religion might also be a path to god albeit using a different path. this mindset is the reason Islamic countries are more prone to fascism. when you, an educated guy, cannot appreciate or at least respect another religion or what it is, how in the world can you be inclusive? this self glorification is nauseating. to believe that your religion is the only religion worth believing is the heights of ignorance. you seem to be brought up in the same aggressive and uni dimensional mindset that is characteristic of the Islam practiced in Pakistan.

    as far as i am concerned, the end of organized religion is at hand. with changing mindsets and perceptions, it now becomes clear to an increasing number of people that religion was created by man in his image of god and not the other way around. therefore, to claim moral superiority over something that is so palpably imaginary is the quite obviously the new height of stupidity and this stupidity comes in the way of world peace.

  26. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    correction.* therefore, to claim moral superiority over something that is so palpably imaginary is quite obviously the new height of stupidity and this stupidity comes in the way of world peace.

  27. Raj TOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex Minor wrote:

    some trace their origin to Aryans, while others to greeks who had come with Alexander, some to the jews and still others to caucasians.

    Anybody who starts using the word Arya outside the Hindu context is nothing but a dimwit, including all those “Western scholars”.
    .
    When the Iranians and others in Central Asia were part of the nation of Bharat, the other Bhartiyas did give some of their elite the epithet of Arya, as long as they acted noble and in cause of Dharma.
    .
    Beyond that nobody has any right to use “Arya” for themselves. It is just as absurd as say some Thai Buddhists using the word “Momeen” to describe themselves.

  28. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    Rex Minor,
    Have you read the references that you have liberally quoted? At least, I know, for sure that Al Beruni’s work contradicts your fiction about the origin of Pashtuns. Please don’t try to mask your stupid history with useless verbiage. You are fooling no one. Gujjars, Sakas, and Kushans had not only settled in Afghanistan but also in India, in large numbers. A lot of them are hindus. One tribe of Rajputs is known even now as Bargujjars, which means a bada or elder gujjars. Gujjars who attained a particular status were anointed as Rajputs. There are credible theories that a bulk of Rajputs themselves descended from Sakas and Kushans. Of course, just like you bring this fanciful theory about a handful of Jews as the originators of Pashtuns, Rajputs also have concocted an even fancier theory about their origins: that they are descended from the sun, the moon, snake, etc.

    You have the benefit of living in Germany unlike some of your ethnic brothers who are suffering in Afghanistan precisely because of idiots like you, who instead of dispensing sound advice, continue to fuel the hatred and bloodshed on the basis of some nonsensical interpretation of your holy book. If you are so enamored of their bravery, do go and join them instead of cheering from the sidelines. And, please, for your own sake, try to educate yourself with scholarly works rather than trying to fit in everything with your version of Quran. Take it as a moral guide within a limited realm and not as a historical document. Like most scriptures, it has its share of rubbish.

    And don’t indulge in orgasmic delight at the plight of Americans. In case you missed it, they are building a huge base in Kabul. You don’t know how crazy they are.

  29. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    How appropriate is the name of the article. Murder of History ….. Mr Bad man is not only rude but a self declared opponent of historians, who simply epressed their opinions. Did I say I have any affiliation with Pashtuns or Afghans? I do not blame the guy; after working in the subways and listening to the scourage of republican candidates and the Arizona senators verbal declaration of war against the muslim Nations, while stranded on Pakistan highways, and being forced to watch the test firing of long range missile from the Korean Island, and in the midst of all this the cable networks verbal onslaught on the viewers about the greatness of the America? t must be all nerving expeience for the new immigrants and the tourists? Paranoia can not be treated with tranquillizers? Bad Man, no more emotional post!

    Rex Minor

  30. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    PS

    No one has left bigger monuments than the Pharaohs, Mayans, Imperial Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans and the Moghals? Let the Imperial USA leave theirs as well for the future history students to learn that everything starts from zero and ends as a Zero.

  31. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Raj

    Your statement might be logical, but the truth is that the Romans, the Germans and the Afghans relate Arya, the white and the supreme race for themselves? It is frightening!

    Rex Minor

  32. Balwinder Sandhu United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    REX MINOR, REX MINOR, REX MINOR sigh
    —————————————-

    The Turk who was educated and lives in Europe has some of the most un-enlightened views which would delight Zaid Hamid.

    Sample- he says- “fact that there are still a large number of people in the world, including Indians non muslims who have not yet been enlightened is no one’s fault.”

    Mr Minor, we are doing very well without conversion to Islam. Here, in the UK, Indians of hindu-sikh origins (74% score) regularly outperform even whites (64%) for the last 25 years in the national school tables published on the net.

    Sadly, Pakistanis (48% scores) and Afro-Caribbean blacks are at the BOTTOM of the pile. Fact, check it on the net.

    So, Mr Minor learn about the unique cultural strengths of the hindu-sikh Indians who are perhaps the most educationally and financially advanced minorities in UK and USA, without, or some would say, because they are not part of the ummah.

    ps- Turkish scores in the UK are also bad- around 54%. Mr Rex Minor Sir, welcome back to PTH, I missed you. Waiting for yr response.
    B SANDHU, OF HAYES AND INDIA

  33. Balwinder Sandhu United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    REX MINOR, REX MINOR, REX MINOR sigh
    —————————————
    BUDDY WELCOME BACK.

    1. The Arabs employ lakhs of Pakistanis and Indians because oil was discovered on their land. Wealth was handed to them on a plate. Not because they created it.

    2. The fact that millions of ppl converted over a period from 1000 – 1948, and has practically stopped in India now has a lot to do with the ferocity of the muslim invaders – the local native felt that conversion to Islam was either the best life insurance policy then or a great way for social and economic advancement.

    History is brutal, no hard feelings from us. But, you should not glorify invasions with disgusting talk of ‘legitimate war booty’ etc. Maybe the yanks should similarly carry off slaves, rape and convert while in ummah land. eh Mr Minor- over to you.
    B SANDHU, HAYES, ex India

  34. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Fingofilm
    Islam is the true religion for muslims; for the jews and christians theirs is the favourite and those who are not satisfied are declaring themselves as atheists, agnostics and leaving their church and converting to Islam.

    Do not give me this communist crap nor try to patronise me or misunderstand or misread my words. I was simply giving the prospectives of various historians about Pashtun folks, without stating my opinion or agreement to any of the theories. What has always bothered me is that how come that Pashtuns have always resisted aliens in their land and have refused to accept a foreign HERR(Master), and yet the Indians who have also experienced the migration of Sakas, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars, as Hayyer and others have pointed out, yet they allowed their country foreign occupation for two centuries?
    Ofcourse I have absolute respect for all those who have different faiths, a different opinion on religion or politics. Religion is very personal and this is the way it must be treated. I have never discussed religion with non muslims , so you can keep your wisdom about your faith to yourself and I shall be allowed to keep mine.
    Religion is the belief in a super power which has created and controls the univese and demands obedience and worship; one either believes in or does not believe it !! End of discussion!

    The world will never be at peace unless the people so desire it, there never was!We are all humans and sinners. I do not know how Islam is practiced in Pakistan, but I am aware that both India and Pakistan are arming themselves to their teeth and this is neither stupidity nor peaceful jestures but the highway to annihilation. We have experienced two world wars and the preparations for the third one are in offing; Israel is buying(on paper) without paying, additional German made submarines which can carry loly pops and the Americans are threatning ” all options are on the table” against Iran with a preventive war, the stated reason being that Iran has a program for developing loly pops. Did you mention peace? For centuries you have lived with an illusion and your kind are going to live for atleast two more centuries in illusion to face the real world. No sir, neither India nor Pakistan have loly pops to keep them in museums? Do not try to flog the rligion or try to instrumentalize it for political purpose. Stay in your close quarters lest you catch a cold. The world outside is very harsh and is likely to get harsher.

    Rex Minor

  35. Balwinder Sandhu United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Mr MINOR Sir, evading difficult questions was never a part of your armamentarium- we eagerly await your answers.
    btw- I do agree with yr displeasure about the obscene amount India spends on arms. But you know why that is dont you? or is history of Indo- Pak confrontations not your specialisation??

    PL spell K A R G I L Sir. Mr Rex, your reply awaited with respect
    B SANDHU, HAYES, ex India

  36. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    As usual the discussion has turned into a fist fight of intellectual egos. Boring as it has become, I would like to request that name calling must be avoided. I have in the past enjoyed enlightened comments from Mr. Bade Miyan – I do not know his faith nor does it matter. Perhaps it is a pseudonym but it does mean “elder sage” and to call him Bad Man was a poor choice of words.
    Please move on with a civilized discourse.
    Another gentleman whom I miss on this blog is Mr. Vajra…

  37. Balwinder Sandhu United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Anwar Sir, you and I know each other’s faith, but that is not imp. Maybe you might care to answer some of the points I have raised for I feel Shri Rex Minor- whose posts I enjoy- does do a runner when put on the spot.
    Anwar Sir, waiting for a vaartaalaap.

  38. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    @rex minor
    why dont you try and read your post to raison and then try and tell me that you were talking about the perspective of “other historians” about the Pashtuns? try that. raisons post to you did not talk about Pashtuns and neither did yours to him. not once did you name Pashtuns or any particular historian. read your comment and then see what it sounds like.

    and in the backdrop of this when you say something like “The religion of Islam was created by God almighty on day one when the universe was created.”, what is anyone suppose to understand?! whatever i said to you in my last post applies to you if you truly believe in this statement. if you do not, then i am sorry and i take that back.patronizing was obviously not the intention, expressing shock was because i had a different impression about your thinking.

    as far as religion is concerned, you give an extraordinarily simplistic argument. your view is that you either think that organized religion is true or you are an atheist or an agnostic. that is not true. my comments were directed towards organized religion only. with changing mindsets, organized religion is in trouble because man made them and their tenets. that does not mean that this will lead to godlessness. people might still believe in a superpower but not in the manner with which the superpower is portrayed in these organized religions. this “superpower might be a completely different concept altogether. organized religion claims to paint a certain picture of the superpower. what i am trying to tell you is that there will soon come a time when people might believe in a superpower but recognize the fact that to “know” or “understand” or “reach out” to Him is beyond the human mind. or people might start to think like agnostics and admit that humanity will never know whether a superpower exists. all this is completely possible outside the ambit of organized religion and that is what i was talking about.

    and again you made my argument overly simplistic when you thought that i think religion and a correct approach to religion is the panacea to world peace. that is not what i meant. i only meant that it was a contributing factor. the points you raised that go against world peace are between countries. and yes,when it comes to countries you are correct “attitudes have to change”. countries need to “want peace more”. but what i was saying is that religion comes in the way of world peace because it affects the peace WITHIN a country most of the time as opposed to BETWEEN countries( what you were talking about). i was trying to say that religious arrogance comes between inter-community peace and therefore affects the peace within countries. like what is happening in Pakistan and India. world peace is not all about peace ‘between’ countries. it is more importantly about peace ‘within’ countries and it is here that religious arrogance plays an important role.

  39. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    History is murdered by those who wish to glorify the arab religion – and by those who wish to bootlick the arabs.

    Rex says: islam is the religion for muslims. Actually islam is the religion for tose who wish to live under a totalitarian finalist-fascist system. Taking some arab god as help or cover-up or piety-show facilitator makes it also into a blasphemy.

    The origin of the pashtuns is unimportant. Their future is more important. The arab religion has fooled, tempted, misled and misused them in the past. The pashtuns became killers for the arab glory and arabic imperialism. I am wondering how long the intelligence of the pashtuns will take to clarify to them how they have been and are being misused. The pashtun narrative is rather narrow-minded and tribalist.

    Pashtuns have never succeeded in defeating anyone. It is the geography of Afghanistan that does it for them. If the pashtuns have to fight on the plains then they will be defeated, even crushed. What defeated the russians-USSR was not pashtun valour but the stinger rockets given by USA seeking revenge for their humiliation in Vietnam at the hands of USSR (“commies”). Now it is the pakistani army secretly (or not so secretly) helping the pashtuns inflict pain on the USA.

    Conclusion: The Pashtun is a misled-misused human being. When will he gather/develop the intelligence to realize this? He is misled-misused by arabs, USA, Pakistan and by agents of the arab religion.

  40. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    @rex minor

    Islam might be the true religion for muslims but that does not mean all muslims display religious arrogance. many muslims are of the opinion that all religions are different paths to the same god. what is wrong with this thinking?! Rex, people have the ability to believe in more than one truth. believing that all religions are different paths to the same god with different names( Allah, Krishna,Shiva etc.) is the crux of Sufism, the form of Islam practiced in India. they have no problem in acknowledging that Hinduism can also lead to god. many muslims do. that leads to a stable and peaceful environment.

    and rex, communism is based on Atheism. i strongly feel that that is arrogance. i am an agnostic. i think we will never really know…

  41. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to fingolfin

    Muslims have developed this trick (it is also in the kuran) of declaring that everything was islam in the beginning. In this way muslims want to steal everything and put it in their own pockets. Islam is the biggest misuser of the word god (or allah). If you give in to any of the slightest self-glorifying declarations made by islam then they will try to enslave you under islam. One has to be very attentive in this matter. Many non-muslims have fallen into this trap laid out by islamic propaganda using nice soft words only to find that the muslims then make them into slaves of islam.

    Islam is a very tricky ideology. Most human beings don’t have the intelligence to recognize its deceits, manipulations, briberies, greeds, boasts etc. (some of them very very subtle).

  42. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Balwinder dear, as much as I resent pulling errors of the past to shadow the future of the people of both countries, let me assure you that the Kargil experiment was viewed by most educated people as a foolish adventure committed by Musharaf. Having said that it is also not forgotten in Pakistan the role of India during the 1971 war. Both sides need to get over with old baggage and work towards economic prosperity instead.
    Faith is a matter of personal choice and that is where it ought to belong.
    I also agree with Mr. Raison about the myth of Pushtoon invincibility. The terrain supports the guerrilla warfare. But without a source of supply of arms, in these modern times, they are sitting ducks. Overall, what is happening in Afghanistan is very unfortunate.

  43. Balwinder Sandhu United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Thank you Anwar. Lets finish with 1971 straightaway- India did what the whole civilised world wanted- the murders and rapes by the Pkistan army were reaching genocidal proportions, and with 10 million Bangladeshi refugees streaming across the border and requiring food and basic accommodation, India had to act.

    Bangladeshi liberation was a given from 1970, the means had to be decided. Bangladesh and India have moved on, could I please ask you to do the same.

    Also the fact that in 1948 and 1965, Pakistan was the aggressor, means that India had to cleave B’desh away as then we needed to defend only one border. Simple military defensive strategy.

    As the brilliant Shashi Tharoor recently said- ” Pakistan has absolutely NOTHING that India desires. Not land, not money, nor any desire to convert. Period. ”

    Are you the same Anwar from Dallas who writes profusely in Indian newspapers like Outlook ? Just curious buddy

  44. Anwar United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Sorry Balwinder – You perhaps mistook me for a different person. I actually never read Outlook. Must be an interesting publication.
    Enjoy the weekend.

  45. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mr Sandhu
    You have not asked a question but made statements with the use of obscene words. The moderators might now be liberals with you but I am not the right choice for your company. You are the past and have no role in future; agitation and name calling is out of fashion in my world.
    Namaste!

    Rex Minor

  46. raison Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    rex minor is a minor irritant on the PTH because of his major lack of honest intelligence. He is stuck in this groove of “islam is the greatest and the only and the final truth”. This attitude among many muslims has caused them much sorrow and damage and they, instead of correcting this mistake, keep blaming or ridiculing the non-muslims. rex minor has learnt to do only that and he can’t do anything else. If you need a pathetic example of islamic upbringing then you have rex minor at the forefront. I don’t hold him to be the final culprit – we have to blame this arab religion, which has been doing this to so many human beings since 1400 years.

    It is very difficult – may be even impossible – to live relaxed, safe, happy lives if you have human beings stuck in a fascistic, attavistic, tribalist, self-glorifying mental groove in your society. So many muslims are sick of islam or sick due to islam. I take pity on them – but the tendency to arrogance and violence among SOME of them makes me keep myself away from ALL of them. One never knows who is how.

    This glib armchair talk about pashtun bravery and invincibilty is a major reason why the pashtuns are stuck in this violence, machoism (misogyny), tribalism and backwardness. If you keep saying a person is brave then he ends up becoming a cowardly idiot to be misused by those who “praised” him. The sunni fascists in Pakistan and in the petro-dollar arab lands have made all the preparations to misuse the pashtuns for another 100 years. Those who talk of pashtun bravery are actually their worst enemies and these glib-talkers live in some comfortable villas with pashtun khidmatgars (servants).

    No one is invincible in this world. It is just a matter of how cruel the one or the other side is ready to be.

  47. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    @Fingofilm

    You tend to think loudly, and are obsessed with religion, now you talk about organised religion. What I have stated is what I believe in and fully know that those who are muslims shall try to understand it. I do not expect that a non believer would either understand or accept it.

    God almighty has not created several religions to choose from, the word ONE is very important for believers of Ibrahimic religions. History of this faith tells us that humans have always longed for the powerful one, the wise one and the invisible one and kept on following one or other Gods for themselves, meditated and even were exploited by the High Priests for centuries and then it dawned upon them about ONE God, not many Gods, not animals or humans but one the super human, the creator and the search for the ONE God then ended. The messangers of God broght over the commandments which later turned into scriptures which were rich in philosophy, mathematics and science, moral codes and ethics. The one who believed in the scriptures stopped worshipping idle statues, and like good soldiers started living with the spirit of the scriptures, love and compassion for the next one and solidarity with the weaker ones and freedom and justice for all. Many volunteered as was required and spanned out in other corners of the world to carry the message of God to the inhabitants.
    History also tells us that the missionary work was not always peaceful as it was meant to be and wrongs were carried out in the name of ONE God and people across the world suffered at the hands of the missionaries, be it in the new world, India or Africa. And the violence lastly engulfed the believers themselves, and there were christian crusades against the barbarians(foreigners) muslims in the arab land and the muslim armies invaded the christian ruled lands of Europe and more blood was shed in the name of God than otherwise was the usual battles mong the barbarian tribes for land grab and hegemonic desires. The christian Europeans then targetted the Jewish people and they were sbjected to the antisemit campaign which culminated into a holocaust in the third Reich. The end of ww2 brought the awakening to the allied powers who agreed that the colonialists must vacate their occupaion in India and Africa.

    This is history now and during this time many peoples of the world remained steadfast with their traditions and cultures and today we and I mean, we have a colourful world with uman rights, as per the sciptures are the integral part of the UN human charter and every country abides by it regardless of whether they are believers or not believers. The rule of law and not the military to control the people in their lands, peaceful coexistance with other countries, freedom and peoples rule(democracy)within the country and religious freedom for all, these are some of the ingredients of the new world order. Not all the countries as yet practice it but the need of the religion has benn truly relegated to personal faith only.

    Now tell me what is this all about Islam, beng blamed for the behaviours of people living in the muslim countries? Is it the intention of some to relive the time of crusaders. This scourage comes from the Zionists who live in the country called USA, the only major power which does not recognise the jurisdiction of theUN criminal court and in practice relives the time of barbarians whe foreigners wer the occupants of many countries in the world!
    Now what were you bickering about or the members of the mob who preceded you? If you have something original to say then say it but do not try to plagarise the texts of Zionists media,NYTimes, Washington Post, Senator Mccain, or cable networks including AlJazeera, CNN and Fox News. No hard feelings, we should agree to disagree on opinions but I am nt here on a teaching mission. I want to learn about the people of Pakistan, how they tick and comment when necessary.

    Rex News

  48. Dr Mishra, Yorkshire United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Anwar and raison, the way you explained the myth of Pashtun invincibility opened my mind, I had never thought of it that way. Brilliant.

    Balwinder’s comments about the vastly superior scholastic performances of Indian hindus, sikhs, jains and Budhists in UK as opposed to the slide in Pak quom , is indeed very true and should be discussed in the wider PAK community.

    Finally Rex Minor, sorry, no one abused you as you claim. You need to debate man to man rather than sulking away like that.

  49. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mr Mishra

    You guys are just making statements. What do you want to debate with me , man to man? You guys are link, drive on link and always avoid the right side. Be happy in litlle Britain where according to your young Prime Minister, multi cutured society in Britain has failed! Raj Too could explain to you if you have not understood the meaning of the word LINK?

    Rex Minor

  50. Dr Mishra, Yorkshire United Kingdom Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Rex, multicultural society in UK has failed according to Cameron, and all of us, mainly because of crime, terror and gross underachievement of only 2 communities-

    BLACKS
    MUSLIMS, particularly Pakistanis.

    Dont know if you were genuinely ignorant of this or were trying to twist the truth. Wake up and smell the coffee.
    Regards

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