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Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » Difference between Islam and Political Islam

Difference between Islam and Political Islam

(This is a rare post about religion on PTH, because we do not encourage religious discussions on our page. The aim of this post is to understand differences between Islam and “Political Islam”, a notion having its origins in the last one and a half century,)
Following are excerpts from Tarek Fatah’s book, “Chasing the Mirage: The Tragic lllusion of an Islamic State”
The views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of PTH.

What Islamists seek and what Muslims desire are two separate objectives, sometimes overlapping, but clearly distinct. While the former seek an “Islamic State,” the latter merely desires a “state of Islam.” One state requires a theocracy, the other a state of spirituality.

The phrase “state of Islam” defines the condition of a Muslim in how he or she imbibes the values of Islam to govern personal life and uses faith as a moral compass. In contrast, the “Islamic State” is a political entity: a state, caliphate, sultanate, kingdom, or country that uses Islam as a tool to govern society and control its citizenry. At times, these two objectives overlap each other, but most often, they clash. Islamists obsessed with the establishment of the Islamic State have ridden roughshod over Quranic principles and the Prophet’s message of equality.
However, Muslims who have striven to achieve a state of Islam have invariably stepped away from using Islam to chase political power, opting instead for intellectual and pious pursuits.

Since the first caliphate in Medina in the 7th century, clerics have continually reminded Muslims that their mission on Earth—to spread Islam—is impossible without the establishment of an Islamic State. Such edicts by caliphs and imams have gathered near-universal acceptance despite the fact that neither the Quran nor the Prophet asked Muslims to establish such a state. In fact, the five pillars of Islam, which form a Muslim’s covenant with the Creator, do not even hint at the creation of an Islamic State.

It is not that early Muslims did not get a chance to establish an Islamic State. Through the centuries, from the time of the Rightly Guided Caliphs to the Umayyads and the Abbasids, hundreds of Muslim dynasties have tried their hand at creating this illusive Islamic State, and all have failed in laying the foundations of such an entity. Some rulers demonstrated impeccable personal character and integrity, but as soon as they died, murder and mayhem followed. If the creation of an Islamic State was not possible when Muslims were at their peak of power and intellect, it would be reasonable to conclude that this ambition is not realizable when Muslims are at their weakest and most divorced from education and the sciences.

Maudoodi, one of the main proponents of an Islamic State in the past century, in his book Islamic Law and Constitution, poses the question: “What are the fundamental objects for which Islam advocates the establishment of an Islamic State?” Answering himself, Maudoodi quotes two verses of the Quran, suggesting that they require the establishment of the Islamic State:

“Certainly We sent our Messengers with clear arguments, and sent down with them the Book and Balance, so that people may conduct themselves with equity” (57:25), and “These Muslims (who are being permitted to fight) are a people who, should We establish them in the land, will keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and enjoin good and forbid evil.” (22:41).

Nowhere in these verses of the Quran does God ask or authorize the creation of an Islamic State. Yet, from the same verses, Maudoodi concludes that God commands the creation of such an entity. In the same book, Maudoodi writes that such an Islamic State will “eradicate and crush with full force all those evils from which Islam aims to purge mankind.” In this one sentence Maudoodi reveals the true objective of the Islamists.

The urge to “eradicate,” “crush,” and “purge” lies at the heart of their obsession with an Islamic State
In his seminal work published in 1925, Al-Islam wa usul el-hukum (Islam and the Fundamentals of Authority), Razik argued against the Islamic State and advocated the separation of religion and civil society, drawing the wrath of the influential Al-Azhar University. His books were burned and he was declared an apostate for merely suggesting that the state of Islam did not require an Islamic State. His book was published in the aftermath of the collapse of the six-hundred-year-old Ottoman Empire and the abolition of the caliphate system by Turkey’s founding president, secular modernist Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. For the first time since 632 CE, the Muslim world had no central political authority. The caliph’s authority had been on the wane since the rise of European imperial power in the 16th century, but the 1925 abolition came as a shock to much of the Muslim world, which was largely living under French, British, and Dutch occupation.

It was in this vacuum of political authority that intellectuals like Egypt’s Ali Abdel al-Razik raised difficult issues. Razik questioned the need for the revival of the caliphate and proposed the idea of a nation state where religion would not interfere with the political process. Razik’s opposition to the creation of the Islamic State in the form of a revived caliphate stirred anger among Egypt’s orthodox Islamic establishment.

Paradoxically, a group of Islamic scholars chaired by Sheikh Muhammad Abul Fadl al-Jizawi, the rector of Al-Azhar, had already issued a statement reluctantly coming to terms with the abolition of the caliphate. They had even criticized Muslims who felt bound by an oath of allegiance to the deposed Ottoman caliph and regarded obedience to him as a religious duty, already welcoming the weakening of the Turkish-based caliphate and had intensifi ed their campaign to have the caliphate returned to the Arabs.)

Razik’s critique, however, went beyond the simple acceptance of a fait accompli. He launched a vociferous attack on the centuries-old school of Islamic political thought. In this, he took on not only the orthodox Ulema (Islamic scholars) and Al-Azhar, but also self-styled modernist Egyptians like Rashid Rida, who oscillated between Arab nationalism and Islamic universalism, but never gave up on the Islamic State.

Razik, based his opposition on an Islamic perspective, considering his background as an Islamic scholar and as a former judge of a religious court. He argued that the caliphate or the Islamic State had no basis in either the Quran or the traditions of the Prophet. He rightly argued that the Quran makes no mention of a caliphate and invoked the verse that said, “We have neglected nothing in the Book” (6:38).

As long as Razik restricted his criticism to the caliphate, the orthodoxy was willing to tolerate his views. However, when he challenged the long established belief that Islam as a religion necessitated the creation of an Islamic government, he crossed a line, leading to years of harassment and ostracization with accusations that he was a communist. Undeterred by the witch hunt, Razik concluded that (1) Government or political authority, as necessary as it might be seen to realize Islamic ideals and obligations, was not the essence of Islam and had nothing to do with the primary principles of the faith; and (2) Islam left Muslims free to choose whatever form of government they felt could solve their day-to-day problems, with civil society minus an offi cial state religion being best able to offer such a solution. Razik clamoured for the de-politicization of Islam, claiming that the only benefi ciaries of the Islamic State were the tyrants who ruled Muslim populations and who were able to silence opposition by getting the Ulema to declare that opposition to their government was opposition to Islam.
Iqbal wrote dismissively of the clerics: “The religious doctors of Islam in Egypt and India, as far as I know, have not yet expressed themselves on this point. Personally, I fi nd the Turkish view is perfectly sound.” He went on to defend the separation of religion and state, writing, “The republican form of government is not only thoroughly consistent with the spirit of Islam, but has also become a necessity in view of the new forces that were set free in the world of Islam.”

Iqbal further cited two examples of how in early Islam the caliphate had adapted to political realities. First was the abolition of a condition that the caliph had to descend from the Meccan Arab tribe of Quraysh. Iqbal cited the ruling of an 11th-century jurist that, since the Quraysh tribe had experienced a political debacle, ruling the world of Islam no longer required belonging to the Quraysh tribe. The second example involved the historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun, who in the 15th century declared that since the power of the Quraysh had vanished, the only alternative was to accept the country’s most powerful man as the country’s imam or caliph. Iqbal concluded from all this that there was no difference between the position of Khaldun, who had realized the hard logic of facts, and the attitude of modern Turks, who were also inspired by the realities of their time rather than by medieval laws written under different conditions of life.

In his seminal work The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, Iqbal wrote:

“Such is the attitude of the modern Turk, inspired as he is by the realities of experience, and not by the scholastic reasoning of jurists who lived and thought under different conditions of life. To my mind these arguments, if rightly appreciated, indicate the birth of an International ideal, which forming the very essence of Islam, has been hitherto overshadowed or rather displaced by Arabian Imperialism of the earlier centuries in Islam.”

The cause of the violence that has engulfed the Muslim world is centred on the premise of an Islamic State or a caliphate as the prerequisite for the flourishing of Islam. Among the contemporary opponents of the Islamic State is the brilliant Sudanese-American academic, Professor Abdullahi An-Na’im, who teaches law at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. In his classic book, Toward an Islamic Reformation, An-Na’im writes about the unrealistic utopian dream of an Islamic State: “The authority of the caliph was supposed to be derived from popular support without any principle and mechanism by which that popular support could have been freely given, restricted, or withdrawn. This is, I maintain, one of the fundamental sources of constitutional problems with the sharia model of an Islamic state.”

It is no wonder Muslims like An-Na’im are the prime targets of the Islamic religious right. Islamists consider secular, liberal, progressive, or cultural Muslims and even orthodox Sufi s a greater threat than the West.

The reason is that Muslims opposed to the Islamist agenda cannot be fooled or charmed in a way naive liberal-left politicians can. In fact, radical jihadis and their Islamist apologists have been targeting fellow Muslims for decades.

Their conflict with the West is only recent. Long before Islamists donned anti-imperialist paraphernalia, they were the loyal storm troopers for the United States, targeting left-wing and secular Muslims or anyone who was able to unmask their fascist agenda and links to Saudi-funded Wahhabis.

Even today, the primary enemy of the Islamist is the fellow Muslim who is unwilling to surrender to the harsh literalist and supremacist use of Islam as a political tool. The Muslims who stand in the way of the Islamist agenda pay a heavy price for their courage.

The call for an Islamic State gives false hopes to Muslim masses. The followers of Maudoodi and Syed Qutb are dangling carrots and the promise of heavenly pleasures to mislead the Muslim peoples.

Had the Islamic State been possible, Allah would have brought it about it by now. There were enough men of impeccable character and integrity that had the chance to turn their domains into a genuine Islamic State, but everyone who tried, experienced failure. Perhaps there is a reason why Allah did not mention the creation of such a state in the Quran. Perhaps this is why the Prophet Muhammad talked about the message of Islam reaching the four corners of the earth, but gave no instructions on the creation of the Islamic State. Perhaps he was giving us Muslims a message that we have failed to heed. Perhaps it is time to do just that and walk away from the pursuit of an Islamic State and instead work to create a state of Islam within each one of us.

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130 Responses to "Difference between Islam and Political Islam"

  1. Kamath. Canada Safari iPad says:

    There are so many crackpot literal lists in the world to day as they during 7 th century. So this mad confrontation. Wii never subside,!

  2. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    PTI brothers and sisters

    Appreciate this. Instead of nitpicking, will gladly read whatever you present on this subject. Too important a matter to worry over details without getting to the substance of it, first.

  3. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Values of Islam… What about values of kuffar…

  4. kahn achakzai India Internet Explorer Windows says:

    kuffar has no religious values its values are the well being of self ,society and the nation.And of course the development and modernism.Religion and the connected values have been permanently given out to Islamists,Jihadists and their elk.

  5. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    A good and necessary article.

    But….

    Quotes:

    1)
    “These Muslims (who are being permitted to fight) are a people who, should We establish them in the land, will keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and enjoin good and forbid evil.”

    What does “fight” mean here? Why must this arab god permit fighting? Has he no other method? The very words “fight” or “permission to fight” in a so-called sacred book makes the book unholy and dangerous.

    2)
    “We have neglected nothing in the Book”

    There are so many things of life in the 21st century about which kuran has no idea, no questions, no solutions, no inklings.

    Are we human beings of the 21st century donkeys in comparison to those arabs who lived in Makkah in the 7th century?

    3)

    Is islam at all capable of giving a contradiction-free narrative and bring forth good, modern-outlook, rational-honest leaders?

    Unless muslims admit that their so-called holy book is full of contradictions and irrelevant ideas or backward-orientations – neither will muslims have peace, nor will/can they live in peace.

    The very language and terminology and concepts of islam are outdated.

  6. Skeptic India Safari iPad says:

    What Islamists seek and what Muslims desire are………sometimes overlapping…
    In what matters do they overlap?
    Does the STATE OF ISLAM that most Muslims desire require a Muslim majority as a necessary prerequisite ?

  7. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to skeptic

    Muslims grow up with this lie that there was a “golden era of islam”. This lie is the “overlap” between islamists and muslims.

    Fact is: whatever golden era of “islam” there was – it was due to the big input from non-islamic (non-kuranic) sources, ideas, inventions, discoveries, freedoms, inquiries etc.

  8. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    watch “war of arrows” – great movie…

  9. Mehdi Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    Allah has sent human being as his Caliph on earth. Caliphate as seen by ‘Islamists’ today could not prevent wars between ‘best of the Muslims’ and at the time ‘best for Islam’, how it can work now. There is no harm in seeking guiding principles including punishments from Quran, and this can be done equally well in Democracy, Monarchy, Socialism or any other type of government system.

  10. Saeedm Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Assalaamualaikum:
    I find it interesting that you rarely post religious articles, but choose to publish this one from a controversial source. Wikipedia describes Tarek Fatah as: (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Fatah ): “Fatah is the founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress. Fatah advocates gay rights, a separation of religion and state, opposition to sharia law, and advocacy for a “liberal, progressive form” of Islam. Some of his activism and statements have met with considerable criticism from Canadian Muslim groups.”

  11. RajTOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Again people misunderstand Islam and the Islamic message.
    .
    The Islamic political idea was not to empower one Caliph over all others men. Why would an ideology such as Islam, why would a person such as Muhammad want to empower a single man, whom he did not know when Muhammad was alive.
    .
    The Islamic political idea is to empower the ideology itself, crowning the dictatorship of fear of Allah, the hatred towards all Kafirs, and the slavery of human mind. For that one does not need a single Caliph. One needs a pervasive social system based on leashes, prejudices and violence.
    .
    There is no difference between Islam and Political Islam. There may however be a difference between Islam and the Westphalian model of state, but who said Islam was about creating a powerful united Islamic state on the Westphalian model or even an Empire.
    .
    Political agenda of Islam goes much deeper. It is about controlling the building block of politics in the world – the mind of every single individual, forcing it into submission, and liberating it from freedom. Islam would say, liberating man from freedom from Allah.

  12. ahem Germany Internet Explorer Windows says:

    to raj

    Islam (=submission) with its arab-centric, allah-centric monotheism is a totalitarian idea. Such a totalitarian idea becomes a franchise. Every muslim wants to reserve a place for himself in this allah’s heaven.

    Someone (non-muslim) says: “I am ready to DIE for my religion”. He calls that true devotion.

    The muslim (not the munafik, but the momin) is indoctrinated more heavily.

    He says: “I am ready to KILL for my religion, my god, my prophet, my book, their so-called honour – that proves MY devotion is greater, superior, more challenging, more brilliant, more heroic-courageous, uncompromising. It thus proves the superiority of the islamic faith-truth”.

    Mankind is in for big trouble because of islam.

    The worst is yet to come. It is an uncomparable mental perversion and misuse of human beings and their foolishness, self-hate and self-deprecation.

    A good religion must work to raise the human being out of this foolishness, self-hate and self-deprecation. Not so with islam (=submission).

    Will the muslims wake up?

    If a person is sleeping you can wake him up – but if a person is pretending sleep then what, how?

  13. @FideiD United Kingdom Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    As an Ahmadi Muslim (yes we regard ourselves as Muslims) we believe that Islam already has a divinely guided caliphate established on earth. However, we also believe that a divinely guided caliphate has a role to play only in the religious and spiritual fields and we have no desire for any political power. This is in fact borne out by a speech made by Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad, our fourth caliph, who made exactly this point; secularism allows all Muslims to practise their faiths and is well worth adopting. The full speech is available here (this is not my website, I am not plugging my own work etc. but if this is somehow against the site rules I apologise and you are free to remove my comment):

    http://www.alislam.org/books/shariah/index.html

  14. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Secularism is always misused by muslim minorities to commit aggression against non-muslims in the name of religious freedom and missionary rights. In lands where muslims are a majority secularism – of any type – becomes impossible.

  15. yasser Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    why your site always against islam does islam permits you to rape the girls and permits you to just put the poor in their hut

  16. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to yasser

    There are many “allah-mullah-blessed” defenders of islam on this site. But they always end up contradicting or confusing themselves and losing the arguments. The biggest confusions and conflicts are among those who defend islam.

  17. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    My advice to muslim intellectuals Do not mess about with Islam and the holy scriptures! We are not in the sevenh century, but in the 21st century, history reaing is good if we can learn some lessons, but of no use if we try to copy the mistakes of or ancestors. There is no political Islam per say, Islam is a religion and not a politcal movement.
    Religion must not be confused with governance of a State nor should the state iterfere with religion, faiths, culture and traitions of the people. This is the order of the Nature!

  18. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to rex

    You can’t be an intellectual if you are a muslim. There are no muslim intellectuals. Islam means submission, means mental slavery. Mental slavery is opposed to intelligence and intellectualism. A muslim is one who has given up independent thinking and has become a mental slave of an arab god, an arab book and the totalitarian world-view therein.

  19. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Ahem

    You belong to the billons of people today who were neither enlightened
    by the Prophets of God who brought the holy scriptures in this world nor subjected to the education of the missionaries who went in all corners of the world and brought the message of One God, the creator of the mankind. You are still in a position to correct the ignorance of your ancestors and accept Gods ten commandments which Moses (pbuh) brought to the people of Israel. Islam is more difficult for you to unrstand! you must accept the messages of Moses and Jesus first, may peace be upon them)before qualifying for entry to Islam. There are no short cuts! Indian muslims who converted directly to Islam are already having problems with understanding what Islam is all about? Sotty, mate tough luck.

    Rex Minor

  20. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Arabs are the most enlightened one. Pakistanis and afghanis first need to learn language of Allah – Arabic…

  21. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Ahem

    enlightened is a matter of perspective. i agree with u when u say that if u blindly believe in organized religion u r shackled in thought and r never truly at liberty.
    i think u r enlightened by not being enlightened by “Prophets of God” who like Rex(sanity be upon him) here are largely full of piss and wind.

    although there are several intellectuals among Muslims because their faith is not blind( and here i disagree with u). blind trust in any belief system leads to decadence. Islam can never be an exception to this.

  22. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to fingolfin

    Intellectual is a person who asks tough questions and thinks independently. The muslim stands under the compulsion to praise and defend islam, Mohammad and kuran. The muslim remains in islam out of fear, or because he expects bribes or wants to avoid being killed as ex-muslim. Consequenrtly if you ever saw/met any “muslim” intellectuals, then they were not really muslims. They may have muslim/arabic names thrust upon them by their families.

    A religion that claims finalism is fascistic and hence anti-intellectual.

    The “muslim” intellectual has to pretend to be a muslim, since he knows that ex-muslims face death punishment, even their families are persecuted. True or not? The kuran is so full of errors, contradictions etc. that no intelligent, honest, self-respecting person will become or remain a muslim.

  23. Sachbol United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Fingolfin
    Its true that there are many intellectual by Muslim standards and they are busy justifying the Person and the Qitab. Intellectual honesty is a kuffar matter and stricktly forbidden for the believer.
    The more one try to limit 21 st century to 6th century , more one will become irrelevant. Truth, Morality and the Universal Principles. scientific laws of nature are not subject to less evovled mediveal person’s limited understanding of them.

  24. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to fingolfin

    If a muslim is truly honest and intelligent then he will very quickly realize that it is a finalist totalitarian fascism centred arond a person and a book. And that humans of low intelligence and high irrationality are easily enthusiastic about it an are ready not only to die but even to kill for this ideology.

  25. Skeptic India Safari iPad says:

    The most problematic concept in Islam today is the concept of Wajib ul Qatl . Unfortunately, even the so called moderate Muslims believe there are instances where murder can be legitimate.

  26. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Though shall not kill is God’s commandment! This is a universal commandment for the mankind, and there are no if’s and but conditions and those who deviate are sinners and are destined for hell in this world and in the world after death. The believers and the non believers skeptics can debate the issue as much as they want but it is all in vain. Islam is the eternal path for salvation of mankind.

    Rex Minor

  27. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to rex

    Islamic PROPAGANDA SAYS that islam is the eternal path of salvation.

    But what does reality show or demonstrate?

    In reality islam-based societies are devolving into fascism, debauchery and violence and series of lies to cover up all that. And then the muslims are putting the blame on the non-muslims as an additional cover-up attempt.

    Even you yourself show this same tendency. You make declarations of your own greatness and salvation and then think that solves the problem/argument into your favour.

  28. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    A muslim should not kill Muslims but kuffars shall be either converted or killed or dhimmified.

    That’s the only way of getting 72 virgins and salvation.

  29. RajTOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex Minor,
    I thought that the Ten Commandments were given to Moses for the Jews! What does it have to do with Muslims?
    .
    BTW, right after Moses got the Commandments he went and killed 3000 of his people who had started praying to some golden bull!
    .
    “Thou Shalt Not Kill” Commandment is more like “Thou Shalt Not Laugh” when not obeying “Thou Shalt Not Kill”!

  30. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex Minor

    “The believers and the non believers skeptics can debate the issue as much as they want but it is all in vain. Islam is the eternal path for salvation of mankind.”

    yes this is what i meant when i said that blind belief leads to decadence and kills the intellect. you believe in a 7th century belief system that is bereft any logic or sense. you refuse to believe that Islam, like all other religions in the world was made by man and therefore open to the frailties and inexplicable thought and ridiculousness just as it also contains shades of brilliance( again like all religions). as long as you are ready to believe in ANY philosophy without the burden of proof, you are not only a danger to yourself but a danger to everyone.
    it just so happens that your interpretation of Islam happens to be humanitarian in that you believe a life is sacred. thank god for that! but what if you BLINDLY believed in another verse of the Koran which gave you license to kill all non-muslims? what would that makee you exactly? who is to say that you might not start blindly believing that sometime in the future? no one.

  31. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex

    by the way if you needed any other ‘proof’ as it were of the human origins of the Koran then you need not look any further than the dichotomy of the Koran. on the one hand it says that “to kill one human being is equivalent to killing all of humanity”( very admirable) and on the other hand it says that ” you may kill the Kuffar”. does this dichotomy itself not make the human origins of the Koran manifest.

    you would think that an “almighty would have more clarity of thought! it is only human to waver, to equivocate and to say two opposite things in the same book. who else can do that but man?

  32. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rajtoo,

    If you think then think through! It was Ibrahim who built the first house of God in Arabia, where millions of muslims go each year to witness the glory of ONE God. jews, christians and muslims worship the same God, I did not wish to quote arabic verses from Quraan, since most bloggers of PTH do not speak or understand arabic even though many of them are muslims. The laugh has been relegated to non believers whose soul have been sealed and are therefore not in a position to understand the difference between the scriptures and mama story books. Moses was also responsible for the deaths of many in the neighbouring countries when was the heir apparent to Pharaoh and commander of the Army. You could read the details of his campaigns if you are familiar with hieroglyphs? I am no one to make judgements on the performance of Prophets of God(may peace be upon them) who brought to the people the messages of God the creator. Only God is all knowing and merciful.

    Ahem

    I do not disagree with your judgement on many so called muslim countries, not very much different from non muslim and non belirvers countries, but this has no relevance for Islam. Remember, a muslim promises to follow the path that is described for muslims, but whether he fulfills the standard is a different matter. I have never claimed for my greatness or any other human for that matter. I am a sinner without any doubt and do not look down upon anyone on account of their ethnicity. Deeds and deeds alone make everyone of us a better or worse human specimen.

    Rex Minor

    they are in case

  33. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Ahem

    you say what you say because you have one fixed idea of Islam and if Muslims who do not conform to that view then according to you they are not Muslims. that to me makes no sense.
    Islam is not a monolith and the Koran, like any other piece of literature in open to multiple inferences. which is why different groups of people practice different forms of Islam. and they are all forms of Islam because there is no wrong answer. some happen to be more logical and intelligent forms of practice, while others happen to be irrational and sometimes even violent. they stem from the different interpretations of the Koran.

    while the interpretation of Indian Muslims might be more peaceful and tolerant, that of Saudi is extremist and ridiculous( to the extent that women cant drive there). within this spectrum it is completely possible to find intellectuals who follow Islam because while the spectrum of Islam might not be s wide as Hinduism and Christianity, it is still wide enough to accommodate an intellectual.

  34. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to fingolfin

    rex is actually not harmless.

    By hiding the fascist side of islam (or by pretending not to know about it or accusing the non-muslims of not understanding islam) he actually gives cover to those who are developing the fascist side of islam by leaps and bounds.

    Many a sufi also helped islamic fascism thus.

    Anyone who tries to present islam as harmless or nice or inevitable or divinely wonderful-peaceful etc. is helping hide the fascist goals and methods of islam.

    Rex does not really think life is sacred. He wants to islamise life. He believes life is sacred only when it is wasted for his islam, only when it accepts islamic propaganda as true, only when it accepts islam as the only salvation or salvatory path and so on.

    rex is a typical muslim trickster. Thus he ends up deceiving himself and becoming a scoundrel or an idiot.

  35. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to fingolfin

    You try to flatter muslims. Why?

    Whether islam has many interpretations or not is not the question at all. Since it is a man-made non-mathematical book hence it is full of many interpretations.

    What is crucial is where do all these interpreations end in? Fact is: they all end in totalitarianism and fascism.

    The indian muslism did not succeed in wiping out non-islam in the indian subcontinent and hence he is presently peaceful (he has to be). But in Pakistan it is the same >indian< muslims who is fascistic and vioelnt and has exterminated the non-muslims.

    In other words, given the "opportunity" – the muslim wil always end up in fascism. We non-muslims don't have to be so foolish as to wait for it to happen. If you see that a storm is approaching then you don't wait till it hits you in your house or garden. Once it hits you then it is too late.

    Islamic fascism is a storm approaching fast upon us.

    May be this analogy is not perfect – since there is litle that we can do against a storm.

    But against islamic fascism – even if it is carried by just a few muslims – we can at least warn others.

    The non-fascist muslims have never succeeded in defeating the islamofascists.

  36. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Rex is following the Sunna in true sense.

  37. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Fingofilm,
    For the third time I am trying to reply your post, but somehow the mecanism of the lap top and the internet connection do not correlate and my post gets lost. Let me try again! Ahem is like a school boy who has a very narrow view of the world not by design but by the reality of his age and education. You on the other hand have completed your education, thanks to the efforts of your parents and Govt support and are of the opinion to be able to challenge the scriptures, I say scriptures, since the old testements in the Bible are more or less similar to the arabic written Quraanic verses, and question the validity of 7th century philosophies and the non clarity in the divine words. Is this the methodology they use in Indian higher studies centres that students question the validity and clarity in the text books which are intended as aids for the higher studies. You and all of the humanity are a very small number in our current status when no human has yet been able to utilise more than 20 percent of the brain potential. Did you not know about it? How come that it took a human thousands of years to dicover wht the Prophet of God(pbuh) said to his desciple about the heavens, the theory of relativity. No sir,if you have not acquired a PHD in philosophy or science, it is invain for you to comunicate with me on scriptures. God the creator, the constructor of the human machinery in all its totality has provided the scriptures which explain how the human brain and soul can be put to use to understand the earthly knowledge as well as that of galaxies and beyond. It is upto humans how and when they are able to fully understand the mechanism with the use of their brains, of which in the 21st century only 20 percent potential has so far been utilised.

    A belier needs the whole life span at current rate to simply see the light in the tunnel of darkness, let alone interpret the quraanic verses in full. Have I said somewhat unexpected and too complex to follow, if so how come you are so keen to discover the hitherto undeclared mysteries of the universe, which all the scientest are trying to understand the so called secrets of life when it was created.

    I am a European citizen and am greatful to be living in a continent which has seen peace for the first time for over sixty years now and do no longer have death penalty for any crime committed by humans. Let India, Pakistan and the great satans of the rest of the world achieve this status before they can claim what God meant in the commandment, Though shall not kill! Have a nice day.

    Rex Minor

  38. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex

    The main problem with unbelievers appears to be of unbelief itself – for which no known cures appear to exist except by catching them young when they can be educated Islamically or showing them miracles later in lives when they need help.

    Unbelievers simply refuse to accept that what took other humans thousands of years to discover about the theory of relativity, heavens etc was all explained by the Prophet (pbuh) to his disciples and is all easily available in the Holy Quran.

    As you know, Express Tribune has published a number of articles followed by long discussions on this subject and many so-called Muslims themselves appear to be unsure now. It could be that they have received too much exposure to and have been shaped by unIslamic – unbelievers’ – modes of thought, of doubting everything good.

    How can this onslaught of unreason be countered? This is a significant issue, one would think…

  39. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Miles to go

    I am very much aware of the most powerful creator, God almighty, who has graciously endowed and blessed each of us with the astounding ability, to explore the limitless opportunities inherent in each and everyone of us to discover the most beautiful worlds we are to live in, the life on earth and the life after death in………,not discovered todate!

    Rex Minor

  40. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kaalchakra,

    God almighty alone is the all knowing!! I know that you are an enlightened one and I am sure there are many more like you in this world. You have the ability to soothe the agitated individuals with the knowledge you possess and the ability you have to send the energy with your post.

    I was always of the opinion that besides knowledge of the subject, if more than one have all the salient factors before them, they are very likely to come to the same conclusions. I was wrong!! I simply ignored the part that mind plays in formation and direction of the intellect despite having the knowledge and experience which contridicts the decision. Kannt acknowledged this very early and explained it. In my view the next task for the science in medicine is to identify through clinical experiments the link between the genes and the diseases which are successfuly treated with modern procedures in certian patients but not in others.

    As you know we are moving away from capital plus labour to capital plus labour and innovation society in the coming century and therefore education and ausbildung(professional training)are the must for the coming generations. Most muslim countries suffer from the lack of resource allocation for this sector. It is evident to the coming French and the current German Govts that they can no longer compete with the emerging markets with large populations( India and China) unless they remain ahead in innovations!

    It matters not what was known to mankind from the scriptures or the science thereafter, the emphasis must be on education and learning, the religion shows the purpose and the way of life. Compassion and love for the next and the weaker in the community must be prevailent in all communities of the world. All muslims have the right to freedom and dignity as all other humans have as well, which was denied them because of occupation, slavery and dictatorship.

    Rex Minor

  41. Bade Miyan United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    “You and all of the humanity are a very small number in our current status when no human has yet been able to utilise more than 20 percent of the brain potential. Did you not know about it?”
    .
    No, sir. We had never heard about it till now. Now please be so kind as to disclose the name of that august institution from where you got your PhD.

  42. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex

    fair enough. i am the first to admit that my knowledge of the scriptures of Abrhamic religions is limited and that i have to make amends there and then talk to you about it. besides i have not completed my education. not just in the figurative sense but in the literal sense as well. so i do have a long way to go i know.

    i also fully agree that humanity has used a very limited amount of available brain power and many things are beyond our present boundaries of comprehension.

    all i am saying is that if it has taken thousands of years for man to understand concepts of relativity, gravity and other fundamentals of physics, i cannot accept that these are to be found today in the Koran and that this is how 7th century philosophers envisaged the entire universe.

    i am passionate about physics and i feel quite certain that had there been physics in the Koran i would have at least heard of it in some form of literature. like the links between Hinduism and physics was made clear in the Tao of Physics by Fritjorf Capra. still i am not implying that the Koran does not contain references to Physics. i just do not think that the first reference to relativity came from the Koran.

    i think Kaalchakra has put it across well. i refuse to believe in the divine origins of the Koran. i refuse to believe that anyone other than man created it. and since as you said man has not used a significant percentage of his brain NOW, i cannot accept that the Koran then has anything special to offer in the way of intelligence. the most unshakable truth for me in all this is that ‘man is the creator of all religions’. that does not necessarily mean that man is the creator of god as i have discussed with you before. just means that to me, man is the source of all organized religion in the world today.

  43. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    rex shows how these so-called holy scriptures, esp. the kuran, make human beings narrow minded and closed minded.

    All that rex can do is keep repeating the same thing about kuran being the best book and the best creation by allah and so on and on.

    The kuran has brought many disasters on mankind and will bring many more. People like rex make it possible for the kuran to deceive and misuse human beings. It is a self-deceivers plus deceivers gang pulling us all down into kuran-centred and Mohammad-centred fascism. They can rejoice in their “success”. But for us this whole concept is one big unending nuisance.

    Actually it proves that the creator god is a sadist and cynic and this mohammadan allah is also another such sadist cynical god.

  44. Fingolfin India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Ahem

    not trying to flatter anyone. i just do not think that ALL interpretations of Islam are totalitarian in nature. some are and some are not. maybe most are. i am just saying that there exist several interpretation and that everyone should take cognizance of that fact. it changes the way you look at things. maybe muslims in India are tolerant because of the demographics. what about the muslims of turkey? they are secular despite being almost exclusively muslim.

    all i am trying to say is that the Islamic narrative has to be viewed in it’s entirety and not exclusively. if you do not like the extremist narrative of Islam( neither do i), that should not colour the way we look at Islam as a whole never mind if the pacifist Islam prevails or not. if anything you are doing your bit to ensure that the “better” Islam prevails by engaging constructively with it.

  45. Sachbol United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Raj Too
    Sir, you did not take your reasoning to logical end. Killing is small matter to Muslims.Life is life and they take both human and animal life on daily basis, sanctioned by their godhood and its spokesperson. Both having no sense about morality as they glorify incest, inbreeding against the law of nature defying the human principles set by the true Divine.
    Both Jews and Christians deny any validity to Islamic claim of worshipping the same Godhood. Jews are very adament in denying the Muhamad’s claim of Prophehood. The deal was stuck between high caste Jewish clan and their Godhood only. Many Jews tribes perished but did not convert to live in the prison of islamic dogma. They chose death rather than accepting the claims of Muhamad being man of God” . Same is the case of indians. They were able to see thorugh the facade of religion hiding the imperialism thus giving the dogma both military as well spirtual defeat. Inbreeding have killed the both physical and mental ability to stand up to the truth and proof of this miserable failure can be seen in their daily life void of truth and constructive ideas. Not their fault as they have been the biggest victims with biggest stockholm syndrome.
    If the Book had the ability, then Arabs would have been the most intellectual and not the last as the whole world know.

  46. Sachbol United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Fingolfin
    If some have the ability to use the brain fully then how come he or she did not develop the intellectual , moral ability to make the distinction between animalistic inbreeding and human natural inclination to keep the sacredness of blood relation. Marriage is a union of soul in every religion and not a contract of Nikah to be used for sexual gratification with due payment made or promised.
    A religion which has the exact rules of sexual exploitation of POW, female slaves etc cannot be of any relevance to this era when humanity is struggling and about to uplift its consciousness , awareness level.

  47. rkc United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The last refuge of a Koran touting Mullah, and those who defend him when confronted with some violent verses from the Koran is that those verses have been quoted out-of-context. My question to them is, why is it that only the violent verses are quoted out of context? What about the purportedly good ones? How do we know they are not quoted out-of-context?

  48. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    fingolfin should read what rkc has written

    I myself asked this question also and no muslim answered it.

    If an ideology brings forth fascism and something else, then fascism will prevail in the long term.

    Muslims refuse to admit this basic truth.

    So they keep practising this deceit and self-deceit about “good interpretation of islam”.

    If you mix 1 gram of poison in 99 grams of honey or the other way round – it is the poison that is going to determine the long term result. That is the law of nature. Even the mohammadan god(-concept) called allah cannot overturn this law. No muslim can.

    To deal with muslims means to deal with permanent-habitual and compulsive deceivers and self-deceivers. This is evident in how muslim societies ahave developed and are developing. Then the muslims put the blame on the non-muslims for all this.

    Don’t write or say anything that helps muslims get away with their deceits and self-deceits.

  49. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Fingofilm,

    In my opinion you are on the right track, if the science of physics interests you. This is ultimately going to lead you to where todays scientists mission is, i.e, to decode the mystery of the creation of the universe as stated in scriptures. This is the first time in the history of mankind that a group of scientists in the world are not trying to explore and experiment something new on a wild goose chase, but the predefined phenomina which has been outlined in scriptures. The secret to learn about the unexplained is to use the human brain which we are all gifted with and do not go into the somewhat luxary of becoming a skeptic about everything which one is unable to comprehend instantly. Use Hegel’s speculative logic if facts are not avilable, but then Hegel said that one must learn german language and study the philosophies of Kannt and other German philosophers before him, before one makes an attempt to apply Hegel’s speculative logic. It is not very different to what I have said time and again in several blogs addressing so called muslims that one must learn the arabic language and the arabian culture before one can understand fully a single verse of Quraan? Why blame the clergy for misread or misinterpretation of the holy scriptures or the scriptures as such for that matter. Quraan is not a reference dictionary nor an Encyclopedia for Islam; the advice of the prophet of God(pbuh) to a pestering desciple was that he should use God given brain!
    Have we not witnessed that if half of the brain is removed in humans with a surgical procedure for one or other necessity, humans are able to function as previously. What does this prove?

    Rex Minor

  50. ahem Germany Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    rex should practise what he preaches and demonstrate how to use 100% of the brain in order to show that all physics-mathematics-jurisprudence-engineering is contained in kuran.

    His empty boastful vapid talk to raise and praise kuran and islam is merely helping the islamofascists dupe mankind and to justify violence against non-muslims and ex-muslims.

    Muslims like rex learn to talk like parrots. Somewhere he read that some mullah said all knowledge is contained perfectly in the kuran. He liked that foolish propaganda sentence so much that he keeps blurbing it out day and night like some autist sitting in front of a wall and banging his head on the wall.

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