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Egypt on the brink
By Saad Hafiz:
By most accounts, the run-off elections in Egypt have resulted in a victory for the Islamist Mohamed Morsy over the military candidate Ahmed Shafik. The big question that has haunted Egypt since the advent of Arab Spring and the street battles that forced the overthrow of the twenty-nine year old Mubarak dictatorship is whether the all-powerful military establishment would allow a democratic transition to an elected civilian leadership which included the controversial Muslim Brotherhood.
To date, Egypt’s year-old transition from military to civilian rule has been anything but smooth. Popular protests, sectarian violence, and clashes between police and demonstrators have all at one time or another threatened to derail the process. Since Mubarak’ resignation last year, nearly 800 people have died as a result of constant political unrest. Many indicators suggest that Egypt is far worse off economically now than a year ago.
Egypt’s main backer, the United States has expressed concern that the Egyptian army was abusing hopes for democracy by ordering more military rule just as the Muslim Brotherhood was claiming victory in the country’s first free presidential election. The US spokesperson was probably referring to a decree issued by the ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) that ensured that the new civilian president was shorn in advance of much of his power including control over the armed forces. This decree was issued just as polling stations closed and two days after the ruling by the Egyptian Supreme Court, stacked by Mubarak era judges dissolving a new, Islamist-led parliament. The apex court based its judgment on dissolving both houses of Parliament on evidence that there were ‘invalid’ seats in the house.
The court dissolved lower house of parliament known as the People’s Assembly had 498 elected seats with Islamists of varying sorts controlling nearly 70% of those seats, with the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP)-led Democratic Alliance controlling the most at 47%. The Islamist Alliance-list led by the Salafist Nour Party came second with 25%, followed by the Wafd at 8% and the liberal Egyptian bloc party list at 6.8%. Many experts expect the FJP to differentiate itself from the Salafist opposition by being more pragmatic, especially when it comes to the economy. The party may focus on promoting private investment, recovering lost revenue from land deals reached during the Mubarak era, creating jobs, boosting the agricultural sector, and reducing income inequality through redistributive tax policies. However, many Islamists from both the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafist Nour party share general goals of inserting certain Koranic prohibitions into civil law, such as bans on interest-based banking and consumption of alcohol. Though both sides may differ on the implementation, according to one expert, “no matter how generously one interprets the sharia, certain prohibitions are unavoidable — and the Brotherhood’s parliamentarians vow to push those prohibitions into law.”
The experience of the past year has left many Egyptians doubting that the military, and what they call the “deep state” stretching across big business, Mubarak-era judges, security officials and the army, will ever hand over control particularly to its old Islamist adversary. The army could well learn from Algeria’s botched experience of transferring power to the Algerian Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) who had handily won the first multi-party elections in that country in December 1991. That prompted the Algerian army to halt the electoral process in January of the following year and launch a crackdown. The FIS was disbanded, various Islamist groups emerged — Al Qaeda’s North African branch is the latest incarnation of one of them — and the ensuing civil war killed up to 200,000 people, bringing the country to its knees.
While the Egyptian military could well be playing games with the electorate to hang on to its unlimited power and influence, it is helped by the fact that many Egyptians particularly the Christian minority quite understandably do not want to see the despised Mubarak dictatorship replaced by a hard-line Islamic state ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood. Some also favour continued adherence to the 1979 Egypt-Israel peace treaty which has kept Egypt at peace for over thirty years, a position opposed by many Islamists. Many voters were dismayed by an unpalatable choice between Shafik, a man seen as an heir to Mubarak and Morsy, the nominee of a religious party committed to reversing liberal social traditions.
The battle lines are clearly being drawn with the liberal urban youth movements which were in the vanguard of protests against Mubarak about two years ago, as well as the Muslim Brotherhood and other supporters of the Mubarak uprising planning a major protest demonstration at Cairo’s historic Tahrir Square to force the military to honour the results of the run-off elections. The best that can be hoped for as the tensions run high is that the check-and balance act between the Islamists and the military does not change to revolution in the streets.
Filed under: movements · Tags: brink, Egypt, Mubarak, Muslim Brotherhood
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As the Mega-Bribes ["Welfare"] from the wealthy patron continue…. the “clients” werk to keep their “Big Patron” happy……. the Patron giving the big $$$$$$$$$$$ has a list of priorities….
No.1 Make Israel very happy …..!!!
No.2 Make Israel happy……
No.3 Make American Neocons Very happy…..!!!
No.4 Make Iran, Syria and the Palestinians very unhappy…..
No.5 Make the Egyptian people happy……….
The ancestors of the egyptians were not arabs. They were attacked/invaded by arabs in the 8th century and manipulated to become muslims and arabs. Since 1300 years they are enslaved. Truth and dignity have departed from their souls. Who will make them aware of this? Unless this awareness grows they will always slink, slip and sink into slavery. Those who grow up as mental slaves like to remain as slaves. Freedoms, dignity, self-resepct and honesty frighten them. They seek to be underdogs of those who make false promises of heaven under totalitaranism.
This analysis applies to whole of North africa and even to sub-sahel Africa. It also applies to Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Pakistan and other non-arab muslimized lands/peoples.
They are growing up with falsified narratives of history (narratives that glorify arabs and islam) being taught to them.
ahem ,good report on brhmn terrorists of india
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne010111The_unturned.asp
The ancestors of the egyptians were not arabs. They were attacked/invaded by arabs in the 8th century and manipulated to become muslims and arabs. Since 1300 years they are enslaved
ahem show them ganeesh may be they will start considering micky mouse of india as their god and father.
ahem…….. Do you think there is more truth and dignity in godlessness…??? Islam, Christianity, and most other religions believe in a divinity…. and ALSO there is the ethos of conduct and the ethics….. of these religions.. The world is bad enough as it is, but to eliminate the higher calling and brotherhood of religion….and have every individual, making up every response to every situation in the moment to moment interaction of everyday life based ONLY on what is most likely to get them, what they want at that moment You prescribe an inarticulate chaos of selfish whim enforced by any means, any force to accomplish instant physical gratifications of men…….. Pity the honest, pity the just, and pity the women in your unconstrained world of wish fulfillment… A slavery to our own wanton urges and venal desires…. What horror could be worse…??? What do you suggest wouild constructively replace Islam in Pakistan..?? I believe you and I have had this conversation before and that you declined to stipulate any specific answer…
to thomas
We need freedom from old ideas of religiosity and religion, especially from the fascist totalitarian religions like islam.
In our social interaction we have to realize that honesty and non-violence must be accepted as the way of life.
Relationship to god is possible only if god wishes for it. So you leave it to him. If he does not talk to you then don’t bother him or yourself with it. If god talked to X then let X deal with it and him. Don’t poke your nose in it. You use your abilities to make human beings and the ecology around you happy, relaxed and fearless. Any religion which goes beyond that will end up as fascism in the name of a (so-called) god. Islam is the worst case in this. Islam has a fascistic god-concept and religion concept.
The question of a specific answer is only the trap of a new religious fascism.
Do the traffic rules and driving license rules mention any god or religion anywhere? How come in an ultra-islamic land like Pakistan traffic rules are disdained proudly? Islam is the worst case when it comes to creating and camouflaging hypocrisy.
A very well written situation of what is occuring in Egypt. I am more optimistic and am of the opinion that everything is moving as expected.
A great step forward for the Arab spring revolution; Morsi is the first democraticaly elected President of Egypt in its entire history. Islam and Sharia are to guide the vision of the former member of the Muslim Brotherhood party, whose members are more acquinted with the Egyptian prisons than with the beautiful Nile, which has witnessed Pharaohs, the imposter Gods as well as Moses, the Prophet of the real and most powerful God of IBRAHIM.
The little Gods of military shall be swept away as soon as the Egyptian people have consolidated their hold on the Govt., eliminating one after another the remanants of the Past. The Aufklarung of Islam had to begin from Egypt which has more Islamic scholars in the country than in anyother muslim country of the world. Morsi has a difficult task ahead to ensure that as a President of all Egyptian citizens, equal rights are manifested in the constitution regardless of their ethnic and religion background. Egypt needs a pluralistic society where humanism is at home.The Peace treaty with Israel must be revised so as to enable Egypt to develope and protect fully the territory of SINAI. The USA under Obama has no further role left in the world of Islam.
Rex Minor
PS The Egyptians are known to speak the most melodious arabic among the arab speaking people of the world.
If Muslim Brotherhood follows the path prescribed by Rex Minor, as it probably will, not because Minor is their mentor at large but because most probably they are similarly deluded, then it is doomed for failure. Religion particularly Islam and Sharia can be no basis for equality, tolerance, and good governance, as is clearly shown by the Pakistan example, the high hopes and naivete of Iqbal and Jinnah notwithstanding. For a stable Egypt to survive in a democratic setting, Sharia must be summarily abandoned (or given simple lip service to) and equality and tolerance must be based on modern humanistic principles not Islam. Can Muslim Brotherhood do this or will it follow Rex’s plan, by abolishing the “imposter Gods” and establishing the rule of the “Prophet of the real and most powerful (!) God of Ibrahim”?
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It’s a long shot but let’s hope for the best. Let’s hope that Egypt, which is a state without oil, manages to survive on a reasonable democratic secular polity arising out of its economic constraints. After all for the rest of Arabia there is oil (that the Americans and the British found for them on which they survive), but for Egypt they have to integrate with the rest of the world for simple economic necessities. These basic economic realities may help Egypt tide over the doom and gloom the Muslim Brotherhood is capable of ushering in. Will Morsi be upto the challenge, of tightening the tentacles of religion the way Kemal Pasha once did? Only time will tell.
Non-communal:
I was with you all the way until you said “tightening the tentacles of religion the way Kemal Pasha once did”. If you are referring to Mustafa Kemal Pasha or Ataturk of Turkey, he did quite the opposite.
saad
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Sorry that I didn’t correct the phrase “tightening” (I did notice it was incorrectly used right after I clicked the “submit” button but didn’t bother to add an addendum).
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But I mean the same thing as you probably do; just like Hindutva, orthodox Judaism, or Christianity, Islam is a slippery slope. In today’s world no equitable and just society can be founded on the basis of an organized religion. If MB stays with the mantra of Islam being the solution (as is their official motto but which is probably only good for rhetoric, in a cynical sort of way), only disaster awaits Egypt.
Non communal is a poor sort, a non believer, to have any idea about what Sharia is all about! Pakistan is not an example and Kemal Ata Turk has been misquoted, besides his well structured military Govt., perhaps suitabe in his times, has been put to bed by the present 21st century Islamist Govt. The Egyptian youth in the Tahreer Square asked for Al Jamouriha Al Turkya; but Morsi response in the opening speech was Islam and Sharia. Let us give the benefit of doubt to PHD engineer Morsi, to tell the muslim world what the Egyptian version of Sharia is? If the European constitutions reflect the values of the scriptures, the Egyptians are well advised to reflect the true values of Islam. Sorry folks,Morsi is the last person to seek any advice from non-believers. It is a pure utopy to imagine that modern humanistic values were derived from non-religion entities.
Rex Minor
Non-communal: Agreed, appreciate your clarification.
To Thomas. Just my two bit. Do you think that before Christianity or Islam the World was a free for all laissez faire or might is right. The tribal societies, the animal kingdom live peacefully have sympathy kindness love affection as also anger lust etc. etc. Do you think Christianity or Islam have been able to curb the negatives of Human behaviour, or the Philosophy of might is right. At the end of the day it is the human being himself who decdes what is best for him. There is that innate goodness in every species which has helped them to survive. In human beings also there are more people who are for peace, goodwill etc believing in live and let live only they do not get in the lime light. Maybe organised religion does in some way makes a person dogmatic and arrogant in making him think his way is the best.A balance of some social rules and some freedom is best. But what is that balance is a million dollar question which has not been answered in a thousand years inspite of so many good people trying to answer it and there at that cross road the individual has to answer for himself.
Vijay Goel
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Excellent points. Here are the Five Precepts (Panch Sila) of Buddhism promoted 5 centuries before Christianity and 11 centuries before Islam, without any covenant with God:
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(1) I observe, refraining from killing any human beings.
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(2) I observe, refraining from taking what the owner does not give.
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(3) I observe, refraining from committing sexual misconduct.
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(4) I observe, refraining from telling lies.
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(5) I observe, refraining from taking any intoxicant or drugs.
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Frankly, the rest of the Ten Commandments (“Do not worship any other gods besides me”, “Do not make idols of any kind”, “Do not misuse God’s name”, “Remember to keep the Sabbath day” etc.) read like a jealous guy admonishing his children for praising someone else’s dad. Where is the divinity in any of these? It is precisely this mentality of a five year old – “my dad is better than yours” – that has made the world an intolerant place.
Vijay Goel and non-communal
i completely agree with the two of you when you say that “goodness” and it’s advent can be traced to well before Christianity and Islam.
but i just want to make it clear here in case the misconception might persist, that religion in some way or the other is responsible for goodness and values, is not true.
i thought that you might think that when no-communal talked about the Buddhist values. there is a perception that the origins of our values and “rights and wrongs” are traces to religion.
if that is the case then i beg to differ. “goodness”, “right and wrong” are a result of a combination of our survival instincts and our evolution which is also a process of ameliorating survival in the long term. thus, as humans, as we evolved gregariously in social groups, our physical evolution then coincided with social evolution to create better survival rates.
which is why, as a species that evolved in groups, killing became a ‘bad’ thing. whereas among other mammals like tigers, killing a competitor for a female is a good thing in their evolutionary process because it ensures that the strongest genes get passed on. it just happens to be the manner with which they have evolved. every other “good and bad” of our society can be traces back to this remarkable process that has socially and simultaneously physically evolved over thousands of years.
each animal therefore, has it’s own set of “good and bad”, “right and wrong” that is decided by it’s own combination of social and physical evolution.
religion only later on became the covering adopted by the social evolutionary process to go on. and yes, therefore much of the recent social evolution has taken place under the aegis of religion, but religion by no means is the source of this process. this process had been pretty much complete by the time religion came along. it is a common misconception to credit religion with this process as opposed to religion.
as proof, i only ask you to look upon the code that apes, gibbons and macaques, our close kin, have evolved with and notice the similarities. you will be amazed. if anything, because their social evolutionary process was untouched by religion, their process is far more efficient than ours since religion as we all know, comes with it’s fair share of irrationality and rubbish. the process of the monkeys was untouched by this irrationality and hence is more efficient and rational than ours.
despite claiming superior intelligence, in fact because of our superior intelligence, we are prone to crime that they are not.
so “good and bad” , “right and wrong” as we know them today are just a result of improving out chances of survival as a species. arguably it is a dynamic process that is never static, but i think that the basic tenets have ossified to the extent that, for a human, killing a competitor for a female, will never be looked upon as ‘correct’.
so had religion not come along at all, the process of ‘right and wrong’ would not have been very different. if anything, it would have been more efficient and more rational with a lesser degree of crime that the irrationality of religion has spawned.
as far as the Brotherhood is concerned, let it be known that their majority was extremely slender and they know it. the fact is that a huge percentage of secular egyptians did not vote at all considering the elections and the brotherhood to be bogus. they now acknowledge this to be a mistake which they are not likely to repeat. so let this election not be misinterpreted as an egyptian expression for fascist Islam( the brotherhood). it is not and the secular egyptians ( with all their incredible diversity) will spit out the brotherhood in time to come. a group like the brotherhood cannot survive in diversity. as for the sharia, a more contemptible document was not written and it personifies all the irrationality that religion brings along with it that i just spoke of.
Fingolfin Sahib! While substantially agreeing to your erudite exposition some questions still remain to be answered. If instinct for survival was the only reason for evolution why wouls a person be willing to die for a cause. Why would a person renounce all goodies for trying to solve a doubt which does not let him rest. Why would Shahid Afridi feel that unexplained exhilaration after hitting a massive beautfully timed six. Why would Fingolfin feel mighty satisfied after that bout of inspired thought which solves some unexplained mystery. No Sirji! Human beings of all the species created by the Almighty has that unsatiated desire to excel and undertake a journey towards the unknown to find his salvation.It is that journey which makes Milton pen his “On his Blindness”.
Rex Minor,
the question is whether Muslims can develop some business model not dependent on Oil!
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All of this Arab Spring etc. was triggered by economic woes more than due to “political aspirations”.
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Turkey is one of the few Muslim countries which has been able to build a moderate economic success, but that too was a result of trade with Europe, and a secular middle class. But the public debt in Turkey is also out-of-control and could become another pain-in-the-arse for the world.
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Other than that, Muslims have been unsuccessful in building a strong economic model.
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The only model the Islamists have is Dawa, where they collect money in the West from Muslims or from rich Gulf states and provide services to the poor. It works well but that is hardly a self-sustaining or self-sufficient model.
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So if Egypt can solve its economic woes, then we shall see if Morris and Muslim Brotherhood have something to offer. They are Arabs and I wish them well.
to vijay
The word god only leads to speculations. we can never answer such questions with certainty. Instead of dabbling in historical speculations let us ask what role religion is playing and can play today.
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Here again we must differentiate between the various religions and religious traditions.
Some religions like islam show a hang towards totalitarianism-fascism. Mythology-based polytheistic religions (like the hindu religions) are more jovial, reformable, modernizable, self-critical. Abrahamic religions are quite the opposite to that.
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Different humans need different religions. Some need a fascist religion – they can have it, but they have to be strictly watched because of their mischiefs. So even tolerance has to be meted out differently. Some human don’t need religions for morality, some do.
So there is no one-suit-fits-all type of answer.
Islam however is an attempt to impose 7th century arabic fascism-totalitaranism on mankind using violence, lies and bribery.
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One does not need much more analysis for understanding the present situation. It is a pity that humns discuss too much and get lost in it. Ot allow themselves to be fooled by outward piety and sweet talk.
Vijay Goel
inmy last post to you. i was only hinting at the SOURCE of “goodness” and right and wrong as we know them today. i was in no way implying that it is the ONLY factor in this process.
i think that the process of social evolution is one if the most complicated in the world and to attribute one reason to it and make a sweeping claim is not something that i will forgive myself for doing. in fact, complicated or not, to me every problem has unseen causes and solutions so i would never use the singularity when talking about origins and solutions.
but we can talk about solutions and problems that assume more significance to us. and to me, social and physical evolution is the source of right and wrong, good and bad, a moral code in general.
in the process of social evolution, with time, as our prism of knowledge grows, a larger number of factors affect this process of evolution.
to take a very recent example, when Galileo proclaimed that the sun was the center of the solar system, that at the time, was a ‘wrong’ thing to say in the society of the time and he was persecuted for it because the church could not accept what he said. the church then was so important because it told people what to think since freedom of thought was not part of the social setup of the time then and havin a body like the church in a time of monarchy was a convenient thing since the church then tempered the eccentricities of individual monarch and maintained their version of morals and ‘right and wrong’ in society.
what Galileo did then, was wrong. yet he was the source of a certain movement that precipitated a change in our social structure. by claiming the sun and not the earth as the center, Galileo created an alternative narrative that made people sit up and think.
Vijay, it has been 500 years since then and today Galileo’s ‘wrong’ has been converted to a ‘right’ by a change in our knowledge prism and the church which decided the morals and ethics of the society the, has been pushed to a state of irrelevance because of subsequent changes in thought brought about by philosophers such as Nietzsche who proclaimed that the “gods are dying”. right or wrong is another debate altogether but he has influenced western social evolution in a profound manner.
this is just an example to show you how “right” and “wrong” is a matter of perspective that change with time due to our knowledge prism. i do not claim to know every factor affecting it but some of the basic ones are not hard to see.
i am not denying that the humans are unique and are the most intelligent beings on earth. being so, their evolution is extremely unique. it is because of our intelligence that we have reached where we are. therefore, because of our prodigiously larger intelligence, the factors that affect us are much greater and the entire proces is that much more complicated.
the complications are so great that to give a holistic and complete explanation for anything in my view is impossible. why do humans alone commit suicide? that in fact is antithetical to the concept of reservation that according to me is the cause of social evolution. so why do we kill ourselves? no other animal does so. that we do so s again a testimony t our complexity which is spawned by our intelligence. no other species( we think) has that profound understanding of death that we do. and this gives rise to suicide. people committing it understand that it is perhaps the strongest statement they can make because others around them understand the significance of what is done. animals do not do it because other animals do not understand death like we do so an ape killing itself for a certain reason, will mean nothing to other apes since they do not understand death. they only understand not giving up ‘life’ so they think of self preservation. but not death. this was to answer your question about why people kill themselves for a cause. although in my firt post to you, i was not talking about such complex questions. i was only talking about the most basic rights and wrongs. people die for a cause because they want to be remembered and only among humans is the memory of a dead human of any tangible significance. they do not want to die nameless nobodies since our ego’s always clamour for attention. for fame and to be noticed. it is all part of our evolutionary process. emotions are amplified and complicated with us. with other animals, it is much easier to explain. a person renouncing goodies to find something knew can also be explained by this.
picture an isolated society in an island which has assumed a totally different form of social evolution. so they do not understand death and when someone dies, they are just apathetic. in such a society would you ever give up your life for something you believed in strongly? of course not! would you forgo food and water in a quest wherein a single person did not care for what you discovered and forgot it after your death? of course not!
everything we do is a direct reaction to the people and the society around us. IN FACT, DYING FOR A CAUSE AND FINDING SOMETHING NEW ARE FOR HUMANS, CAUSES FOR SOCIAL CHANGE and that is why they are done in the first place. it is a cycle. like Galileo, Bhagat Singh was a source of social change in that he electrified the freedom movement in India. so he was a cause of social change and he is going to be remembered for a very long time having left behind his legacy. so Vijay, dying for a cause and finding something new are not detached from social evolution, they are in fact an extremely important part of it.
preservation of life was only how it started. as our intelligence increased, as a process of physical and social evolution, the process and the factors have become far more complicated. which is why for animals of lesser intelligence, the process has been much more simple and can be explained far more easily. for them, their process of social evolution can still be explained by one factor………preservation of life
as for Shahid Afridi, as i said earlier. our social evolutionary process means that we clamour for attention and seek to be noticed, to be remembered. all this is governed by intra human interactions.
so if no one was watching, he would feel no exhilaration, he would feel no joy,
he would just be hitting a six.
Tx My dear Fingolfin for a lovely explaination. I agree with 90% of your explaination. However I completely disagree with the last part. Whether Shahid Afridi or Dhoni hits a 6 or Archimedes or Einstein discover their theories its not for showing anybody. The 6 is hit when the whole body is in synch,footwrk,hand eye coordination,judgment of length and all this is a subconscious act. I as a sports loving person am aware that when you are in the zone you know your shot will be right. Other times you may plan and plan and all will be a nought. So also with scientific discoveries. Illumination comes when Archimedes is having a bath. Sometimes you wake up in the middle of the night and find something exciting. You have been grappling with a problem of Integral calculus for hours and suddenly it flashes in the middle of your sleep. The exhileration then is not for exhibition for any body else but yourself. Once you have experienced that exhileration then you wish it to happen again and you strive for it. For humans this striving could also be an evolutionary process apart from the surviving instinct. May be to lable this just a desire to be known or imprint yourself in immortalty would not be right. This is the only part with which I do not agree with you.
Although helping Muslims escape Islam is a nobel work, but even important one is to help kuffar understand the evil nature of Islam – atoeast at the government policy level decision making…
Interesting discussion on this article in tribune –
http://tribune.com.pk/story/404683/punjabs-cleansing/#comments
If no-communal and any others are of the opinion that in Buddhism or Paganism contained any sacrosanct rules prior to the appearance of the prophets of God and the scriptures, then why are they not followed by the Indian children in the 21st century, who tel lies simply because this maks them feel happy? This feature was discovered recently by the German TV team who were surprised to note that the child’s parents equaly did not find this unusual! And how come that people like Ahem and Miles to go are hell bent on throwing insults at the Prophets of God who are revered by billions of their followers?
The subject was “Egypt on the brink” and the Time of july 9 titled it as “The revolution that Wasn’t”. And I say that the revolution is on course, the wickets are falling one by one and the world is witnessing he Aufklarung of Islam. I am keen and anxious to know if Morsi, the Engineer, is the one to be abe to interpret Islam and sharia which does not discriminate between a muslim and a non-muslim. He must deliver or follow the Pharaoh’s before him.
Rex Minor
to rex
It was Mohammad who threw insults aplenty. The kuran too contains insults, vilifications and intimidations against non-islamic things, persons, god-concepts. Don’t pretend innocence and holiness. Aren’t muslims too lying – much more than non-muslims? Aren’t muslim children being taught to lie when they think of non-muslims as despicable and muslims as superior and feel proud about it? So also are their parents proud about it.
You are fixated since months on one scene in a video by some europeans about one hindu child and his parents. This perfidious-cynical fixation shows your lack of intelligence and decency.
If muslims take to the path of honesty then islam will collapse.
Vijay
of course you have your points and views while disagreeing. we have our own logic and our own interpretations. neither of us need to see the other as wrong and ourselves as right. ironic given the discussion
but if you are interested in knowing where i come from, i will try and explain the basics to you.
my view of inter-human interaction is that selfishness is the most basic human/animal emotion. as i have already told you that i believe in preservation of life being the origins of our outlook, this should not come as a surprise.
secondly, my one firm belief is that EVERYTHING is relative. conversely nothing is absolute. all that you think, do, feel, experience etc, is a direct result of the society you are in and the people, both near and far that you are influenced by.
even your identity is determined by who and what that is around you. you are human because you are not a fish, a cat, a dog and so on. further, what kind of human you are is also determined by the people around you and what they think of you. you react accordingly. inter-human relationships and their complex overtures determine everything.
keeping this in mind, and keeping in mind the fact that everything is relative, i find it highly unlikely that Dhoni or Afridi would feel the same way hitting that six in a packed stadium and hitting it in the backyard of their home unnoticed.
i have played plenty of sport to know that there is a joy in the playing itself and yet i know that that is just the half of it. the really emotion and passion comes when you are being watched. when an image of yours is being built based on what people see of you. a Sachin is a Sachin because he is being watched and the same is the case for all. everything is amplified because you are being watched. the tension, the pressure, the relief, the courage, intensity…everything. so hitting a six becomes exhilarating in these circumstances.
i always find thought experiments very useful. picture yourself playing with machines. a machine throws a ball at you, bats with you, fields with you. are you going to feel the same emotions as compared to when you are playing with humans? i most certainly would not. because of relativity. because intra-human interactions determine who i am, how i behave and what i do, what i feel.
the despair a create in a bowler adds to your feeling of exhilaration and that is amplified a thousand times when you are being watched. this is just a very simple example but there are many more complex intra-human exchanges that take place in sport. like i said, i believe everything is relative.
if i were playing a group of machines, i would feel absolutely nothing. nothing at all. and that is what i mean.
as for scientific discoveries, it is the same. your subconscious also reacts to your surroundings and so moments of epiphany are also determined by the reactions your epiphany will generate among others. your subconscious and you are both reactions of what is around you. Archimedes would not run out of his bath tub if the king was not interested in what Archimedes had to as far as his crown and it’s purity was concerned. his subconscious would not have reacted like that.
we are always looking for certain reactions from others and we react to illicit them, even subconsciously.
so of course we strive to be recognized. and i have been saying that this is a part of the evolutionary process, to be noticed, to be recognized, so that you are a greater center of attention and so that your selfishness, which is your most basic instinct, is completely satiated.
this is where i come from.
False prophet should be exposed. Real prophet are beyond insults.
Its important to note that Muslims and ex Muslims are leading the way in exposing the lies and evils of Muhammed.
Intolerance starts with Shahada. One just need to remove fear of Muhammed and things will start to make sense immediately.
You will find good teachings in any cult. False prophets mix good things and bad things to deceive people. If they only preach evil no one will believe in them. Even Jim Jones and Charles Manson had good teachings. A person who claims to come from God must not have any bad teaching nor should he commit any crime. All it takes to disqualify a person as a messenger of God is one error, one lie or one bad conduct. Muhammad had thousands of them and he committed horrendous crimes.
http://alisina.org/where-should-i-head-to/
from the same article –
Yes there are countless good Muslims. But the goodness of Muslims has nothing to do with Islam. People do good things because they are naturally good. If they belong to a certain religion and are zealot about it they often credit that religion for their goodness. I heard a man say I don’t do this and that because I am a Muslim, if people did not believe in religion they would commit fornication with their mother. I asked him whether he lusted after his mother and Islam was the only thing stopping him to jump into bed with her. Do you see the absurdity of this line of reasoning? If Muslims are good it is because they are naturally good and not because of Islam. They will do good deeds even when they leave their faith. However, if a religion has evil teachings, even good people do evil. Religion numbs the conscience of people.
Islam is a lie. Its miracles are lies. The good teachings you find in Islam you can find in any religion. In fact you don’t need a religion to tell you what is good and what is bad. Look at your email. You are the one who is judging that some of the teachings of Islam are bad and some are good. If you can make that judgment why do you need to follow any religion? You already know what is good and what is bad. We humans naturally know what is good because we are endowed with a conscience. Your conscience is working perfectly. You already know sacrificing an innocent animal to appease God is evil. Why would God become happy seeing that kind of cruelty? You know raping a little girl is very evil. You know things that Muhammad ibn Abdullah did not know. His conscience was not as evolved as yours. So why should you follow a man who was clearly inferior to you morally and in every other sense? Except in one area! He lied better than you and could fool multitudes, whereas you can’t
from wiki
In his October 2010 speech during the inauguration of the Freedom Party in Germany, Geert Wilders, leader of the third largest party in Netherlands said, “Ali Sina, an Iranian Islamic apostate who lives in Canada, points out that there is one golden rule that lies at the heart of every religion – that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. In Islam, this rule only applies to fellow believers, but not to Infidels. Ali Sina says ‘The reason I am against Islam is not because it is a religion, but because it is a political ideology of imperialism and domination in the guise of religion. Because Islam does not follow the Golden Rule, it attracts violent people.’”[13][14]
Muslims should be proud of Ali Sina –
On reforming Islam
For this reason, Sina says that extremism in all religions can be eradicated if certain people are quieted, or if the followers are encouraged to embrace the universalist elements of their faith – but without addressing the extremism inherent in the religion’s texts. “People ask whether Islam can undergo a reformation like the one that Christianity underwent. That’s a poor parallel,” he says. “In Christianity, it wasn’t the religion that needed to be reformed, but the church; what Jesus preached was good.” On the other hand, Sina continues, “In Islam, it’s the religion that is not good.”
Arguing that Islam cannot eradicated, Sina says, “This is the way to fight evil. I do not want to kill the enemy. I want to win them as friends and allies. That is the real victory. In this way, we win because we eliminate our enemy, and our enemy wins by eliminating his ignorance and hate. That is why I believe in my cause. That is why I think I am an instrument of peace.”[11]
Although Ahem’s and Miles to go’s incessant ramblings can never be endorsed, they behave the way they do because of guys like Rex Minor (and millions others elsewhere). If you blissfully keep on calling what others respect and worship as “imposter Gods”, then be prepared to absorb some nasty insults in return. Pakteahouse is unimportant, even scriptures like Bible and Quran summarily term the mode of worship of a full 1/6-th of the world’s population as sin. If you add the population of China, Japan, and the rest of East Asia, almost a third of the world’s population are some kind of sinners and inferior. In Islam this mentality has seen institutionalized to the extent that no one even sees anything wrong here. The insults that come your way from guys like Ahem are a direct result of this institutionalized arrogance and stupidity.
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Muhammad may or may not have been directly responsible for the institutionalized hate that is the hallmark of Islam today, but one thing is clear, he was a social reformer of the 7-th century Arabia who failed to see the future import of his words to the larger world, outside the confines of the Arabian deserts. There was no need to extend his personal and political enmity with the rest of the Arabian tribes beyond the borders of the peninsula, yet the codified hatred for the idolators and non-Muslims in Quran does exactly that. Blissful use of terms such as “imposter Gods” by Rex Minor is a direct result of this shortsightedness on the part of the writers of Quran (or the Hebrew Bible).
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On the question of sacrosanct rules for the lay people, I already listed the Five Precepts (“Panch Sila” in Sanskrit) of Buddhism which itself derives from the Shramana (as opposed to Vedic) tradition developed in the subcontinent. Some scholars have suggested the Ten Commandments basically took these five rules and added some other petty ones (“observe the day of Sabbath” and “you will not worship any other God”!) But I think Fingolfin is exactly right here, the source of social mores and morality is simple group survival instinct of the human species (colored by social evolution) and thus is similar in most societies.
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India’s national motto is “Satyameva Jayate” (“Truth Alone Prevails”), taken from the famous Mundaka Upanishada which is a latter Vedic scripture. The most popular show on Indian television today is called Satyameva Jayate (Truth Alone Prevails).
to no-communal
Jews started this lie/idiocy that there is “one and only one god” and also gave it a totalitarian-terrorizing turn. They also claimed that all of mankind starts from one pair called Adam and Eve. The muslims added their own lies to it by claiming that this Adam was a muslim prophet. Then they ended up making it more fascistic by elevating an arab named Mohammad as “the final” prophet. This judeo-muslim whole world view has now become downright fascistic. In fact, it cannot be maintained or protected without using/inflicting fascist methods, even upon children. Honesty, relaxed-ness and peace have gone down the drain in such societies. Since judaism does not kill ex-jews and hence many jews have de facto left judaism. But islam insists on death for ex-muslims and hence muslism are not only imprisoned under islamic fascism but are manipulated to lie, die or kill for islam as their only entertainment, achievement and chance for a place in the islamic “heaven”. Their expansionism, reproduction, moneys, weapons, children, youth, laws, “education” … all serve this islamic fascism.
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The worse (of and by islam and muslims) is yet to come.
Those who believe that a book or a person in 7th century knew and solved all problems of mankind are a dangerous and evil sort. This book-centred and person-centred fascism is the real face, method and intention of islam. By the time an active majority of human beings realize this, it may be too late. And islamic fascism may become mankind’s fate. It can happen even in the 10 coming years.
Any other theme or discussion about islam is a waste of time and a chance for the islamofascists to strengthen themselves, to infiltrate societies, create fascist cells etc. Non-muslim politicians and their voters are sleeping it off.
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If you call this “ramblings” them it means you too have not comprehended the situation. What to speak of those who are politically unaware or less intelligent than you!
I often say that the creator-god is a sadist-cynic and he allowed islam to be created as an instrument of this sadism and cynicism. The arab-mohammadan god allah is just a nuisance-maker in comparison to that.
nc
rambling because islam has been leashed to certain degree, let it loose and these ramblings become the only life saving warnings….
one can see the effects of more islam in pakistan…
muslims under kuffar rule behave better than free muslims…
listen to the kafirized muslims and his comments how kafir society is a necessary ingredient to keep muslims sane…
http://youtu.be/oEgDy9DwLJo
Ahem, Miles ToGo,
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Most of your posts are ramblings because more often they are repetitious, unnecessary, unrelated, and unprovoked. There may be hundreds of Muslim readers of this forum to whom your posts are demeaning, insulting, and not unlike what Rex Minor’s are to the other side. What do you hope to gain by this type of behavior other than distaste and infamy for Hindus everywhere?
Actually Pakistan is the revenge of Indians on Islam. Onlee one will survive this sensual Tango between the Snake and the Scorpian and establish real Peace.
nc
you mean exposing lies and evils of islam are unnecessary and irrelevant?
repetition is necessary for someone who’s been brainwashed since childhood 5 times a day…
nc
tell me which of my posts you don’t agree with and why? also let me request you to read the works and debates of Ali Sina at alisina.org.
MilesToGo
MilesToGo,
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It’s not a question of being right or wrong but rather a matter of context. I personally have no problem when you or Ahem confront a bigot like Rex Minor. But what you do is not just that; you throw a video clip here, a paragraph there, sometimes 10 in a row, to the general audience for no good reason! You must realize that most here are decent folks who have a world view not so dissimilar from an average Christian or an everyday Hindu. They see as well as you do the dangers and chaos militant Islam can bring to the world and yet your incessant vilification of everything Muslim is gross insensitivity to the average reader of this blog. In this you are not so dissimilar from Minor whose every comment is peppered with subtle insults and hatred for half of the world’s population.
Burma has a population 75 million with the Muslim population being just 0.7 million. The Burmese Muslims have been under this affliction after 1962 when the Army usurped the power in Burma. It all started on 3rd June 2012 when 11 innocent Muslims were killed by the Burmese Army and the Buddhist mobs after bringing them down from a bus. A vehement protest was carried out in the Muslim majority province of Arakan, but the Protestants fell victims to the tyranny of the mobs and the army.
Trying to elude capture and an imminent killing; Burmese Muslims thronged to the Bangladeshi border, but all they met was dismay. The Government of Bangladesh refused to offer them asylum.
Over 500 Muslim villages have been incinerated hither-to. Thousands have been exterminated. The persecution of the Burmese Muslims at the hands of the Buddhist mobs is at its full swing. Yet all the human rights organizations have maintained a criminal silence up till now. Has the Muslim world become so callous that they remain undeterred by such genocide?
This is not a new thing or an unprecedented massacre. Muslims have been a subject to such hostility even before. If we go through the
annals of history we come to the very tenable conclusion that Muslims were always on the suffering side. Islam is a religion of peace and
harmony. It doesn’t allow its followers to lay-waste any other tenet. This leaves behind a big question mark. Why are the followers
of such a peaceful religion being oppressed from time to time?
The fear stricken faces of the poor Burmese Muslims really cuts one apart. The glimpse of their bruised bodies is a heart rending
spectacle. Where is the UN now? Why isn’t the International media highlighting this issue? Why are the competitive authorities of the
Muslim world procrastinating?
Stop killing the Burmese Muslims. JI did a meritorious job by staging rallies against this brutality. The government of Pakistan should
raise a voice in favor of the poor Burmese Muslims at the international forum. The whole Muslim world should join hands to get
the poor Burmese out of their distress and misery.
In lieu of launching into a tirade against the killings, something should be done on the ground. If we don’t help out our brothers there then we are equally responsible for their bloodshed. We won’t be able to satisfy our conscience, and the abrasive cries of the Burmese Muslims will keep on pinching us throughout our lives
To all you secular Hindus, explain this:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3613994.ece?homepage=true
If no communal were to mention God’s name as often as he has mentioned mine, then even Tajender would take him as a muslm! Ahem and Miles could be disregarded as trolls, nocommunal is an evil and fortunately I am allergic to evil. Lady G wrote once that the cradle of civilisation started from India and now no communal implies that Moses(pbuh) ten commandments contained plagarised version of Buddhists wise slogans, while his students miles and Ahem are constantly translating what in their view is stated in Quraan? And yet it would seem that Indian children are brought up by their parents in a free of all laissez faire, what Mr Goel stated in his post to Thomas. Mr Goel need not look in ancient history, it is happening in 21st century India. Even Tajender did not mention this weakness in the upbringing of hindu children.
What they spurt out and what they represent is evil!
Rex Minor
Tajender,
Ethnic cleansing is the charge against the Burmese Thugs Generals. What surprised me was the response from the Bengalis, the neighbouring muslim country. Mr Noon is the God father of the UNO and I thought that he was very much concerned with the plight of muslims?
Rex Minor