Pak Tea House » Terrorism » Confronting extremism
Confronting extremism
By Saad Hafiz:
US Senator Robert F Kennedy once wrote, “What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.” Contemporary extremists, motivated by a religious imperative, have engaged in more hate speak against a far wider category of opponents, encompassing not merely their declared enemies but anyone who does not share their religious faith, and even persons who are of the same faith but who do not share their extreme political views and theological constructs.
The dissemination of personalised hate messages is being assisted by the omnipresence and timeliness of the Internet, which can easily circumvent official censorship. Inflammatory messages can be circulated anonymously, quickly, and almost effortlessly through an especially cost-effective means of mass communication. With the sheer volume of demagogic hate-mongering propaganda being communicated, it seems as if the ‘clash of civilisations’ is being played out over the Internet.
Extremists, particularly those involved in extreme religious movements, such as fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, militant Zionists and Hindu extremists, all claim the divine righteousness of their cause. In this case, stark extremism becomes reframed in a ‘religious’ context, which can have a legitimising effect for some people. It is surprising how many people are reluctant to challenge religiously motivated extremism because it represents ‘religious belief’ or because of the sacred-cow status of religions in most cultures.
Voltaire got it right long ago: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” So did Bertrand Russell: “Many people would sooner die than think.” It appears that in the battle of ideas, the ‘politics of reason’ identified with enlightened rationalism, liberalism and pluralism are increasingly being drowned out by the ‘politics of fear’ underpinned by divisive religious fascism. This is reflected in contrasting comments to a recent article on the genuine concern over the stereotyping and demonisation of Muslims as ‘terrorists’ in the west, when many readers said, “We believe that ultimately we are headed to a Third World War as the Western powers are hell-bent on subjugating the Muslim world.” Other responses suggested, “Islamophobia would vanish overnight if Muslims started to behave like normal tolerant people in a globalised world.”
Extremists generally have a tendency to see the world in terms of absolutes of good and evil, for them or against them, with no middle ground or intermediate positions. All issues are ultimately moral issues of right and wrong, with the ‘right’ position coinciding with their interests. Their slogan is often ‘those who are not with us are against us’. Extremists are also quick to caricature or resort to epithets against opponents that do not have to be proved to be effective; the mere fact that they have been said or used is often enough. Extremist rallies generally include the orgy of emotion, bullying, screaming soubriquets, and even acts of violence.
What is especially worrisome is a generational transmission of hatred between ‘us’ and ‘them’, among ‘peoples’ and ‘cultures’. Children who are the most impressionable, susceptible victims of hate speech, hear it from their parents and teachers, whether it is in the sprawling suburbs of middle America or in the austere madrassas of Pakistan — how ‘they’ are planning to kill ‘us’, how ‘they’ have stolen our lands, had humiliated ‘us’. Loyal to their role models, who had been damaged by perceived enemies, the children grow up thinking about carrying out acts of revenge against ‘them’. These young people, if properly educated and given an opportunity, could instead be the mainstay against global extremism.
It is essential that all societies and governments make a concerted effort to challenge the forces of prejudice, intolerance and racism. Enforcement of hate crime laws is just one tool, which must be balanced to ensure that they do not squelch the free expression of ideas or hinder the ability to challenge contradictory and controversial historical narratives. Probably, the best antidote to hate speech is counter-speech — exposing hate speech for its deceitful and false content, setting the record straight, and promoting the values of tolerance and diversity. The forces of extremism feel threatened when someone talks back or challenges their views.
It will require decades to change the culture of hatred and violence. In this struggle, the moral high ground needs to be maintained, for example, by strengthening the rule of law and exemplifying good governance and social justice. To depart from these standards is to lower ourselves to the level of the extremists and to damage liberal democracy.
Filed under: Terrorism · Tags: extremism, hate, religious, speech
175 Responses to "Confronting extremism"
Leave a Reply
Recent Comments
- free web sex cameras
said Heya just wanted to give you a quick heads up and... - sunny
said No matter how reasonably, calmly and patiently a n... - romain
said Saad sb,
I believe congratulations are in order t... - Rex Minor said NDelhi,
You have a complex and all those like you...
- Ex-Paki
said Maggu,
Great definition of faith. - Ex-Paki said Aren’t we all human beings before anything e...
- Maggu
said NDELHI: REXIE is supporting himself by begging wel... - AbraHarami Snake Oil Baniye said http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...
- AbraHarami Snake Oil Baniye said Romans Maroed MohMad of Kriya Yogi Yeshu (Jesus) t...
- AbraHarami Snake Oil Baniye said “The Greek symbol of Healing is the same as...
Saad Sahib, You have said, “It will require decades to change the culture of hatred and violence”. I think extreme positions by a few have been held from time immemorial. However people with balanced views such as you far outnumber the extremists so the world willy nilly moves on. So just enjoy whatever time God has given you on this Earth. Hopefully the end of the World will not come. Lol.
In an islam-based society those muslims who are violent and deceitful, fascistic and bootlickers of arabs will be in the top positions of power and violence-use. The worst of islam is yet to come. Many will be muslims or pretend to be muslims only to avoid being beaten up or robbed. But even that will not help them. Because muslim rulers will confuse, mislead and misuse the muslims also. Such social sickness has a 1400 year old firmly-based tradition in islam. And yet muslims will be too scared to speak out the truth and keep glorifying islam and flattering the muslim leaders. Thus problems will keep getting worse. That can be seen most clearly in Pakistan.
goyal,
,see the true phase of brhmnsm,
Shyam Chand, a Dalit scholar and activist who served for many years as member of the Haryana Legislative Assembly, quotes from a secret circular sent out by the RSS to its preachers. It clearly indicates the sinister Brahminical strategy of using the Dalit-Bahujans to attack the Muslims and Christians, while at the same time aiming to keep the Dalit-Bahujans under the permanent slavery of the ‘upper’ castes.
Excerpts from Secret Circular No.411 issued by the RSS:
[.] Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes are to be recruited to the party so as to increase the volunteers to fight against the Ambedkarites and Mussalmans.
Hindutva should be preached with a vengeance among physicians and pharmacists so that, with their help, time expired [sic.] and spurious medicines might be distributed amongst the Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Scheduled Tribes. The newborn infants of Shudras, Ati-Shudras, Mussalmans, Christians and the like should be crippled by administering injections to them. To this end, there should be a show of blood-donation camps.
Encouragement and instigation should be carried on [sic.] more vigorously so that the womenfolk of Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Christians live by prostitution.
Plans should be made more foolproof so that the people of the Scheduled Castes, Backward Classes, Musslamans and Christians, especially the Ambedkarites, become crippled by taking in [sic.] harmful eatables.
Special attention should be given to the students of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so as to make them read the history written according to our dictates.
During riots the women of Mussalmans and Scheduled Castes should be gang-raped. Friends and acquaintances cannot be spared. The work should proceed on the Surat model.
Publication of writings against Mussalmans, Christians, Buddhists and Ambedkarites should be accelerated. Essays and writings should be published in such a way as to prove that Ashoka was opposed to the Aryans.
All literature opposed to Hindus and Brahmins are [sic.] to be destroyed. Dalits, Mussalmans, Christians and Ambedkarites should be searched out. Care should be taken to see that this literature do [sic.] not reach public places. Hindu literature is to apply [sic.] to the Backward Classes and Ambedkarites.
The demand by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for filling in the backlog vacancies in services shall by no means be met. Watch should be kept to see that their demands for entry and promotion in government, non-government or semi-government institutions are to be rejected and their service records are destroyed with damaging reports.
Measures should be taken to make the prejudices amongst Scheduled Castes and Backward people more deep-rooted. To this end, help must be taken from saints and ascetics.
Attacks should be started with vigour against equality, preaching communists [sic.], Ambedkarites, Islamic teachers, Christian missionaries and neighbours [?].
Assaults should be made on Ambedkar’s statues with greater efforts.
Dalit and Muslim writers are to be recruited to the party and by them essays and literature opposed to the Dalits, Ambedkarites and Mussalmans written and preached [sic.]. Attention is to be paid to see that these writings are properly edited and preached [sic.].
Those opposed to Hindutva are to be murdered through false encounters. For this work the help of the police and semi-military [sic.] forces should always be taken.”[2]
*
In the face of this circular, no more evidence is needed to show what Hindutva actually bodes for the Dalit-Bahujans. It circular very clearly indicates that Hindutva aims essentially at preserving the oppression of the Dalit-Bahujans, in addition to the Muslims and Christians, on which the entire edifice of Brahminism stands.
u terrorist caught by indian intellegence,while muslims were blamed for these heinous crimes,
Key accused
(1). Lt. Col. Prasad Shrikant Purohit (37): He is the brain behind the Sept.29, 2008 blasts and the man that held it all together. He was the founder and one of the chief fund-raisers of the Pune-based organisation, Abhinav Bharat. He is also accused of procuring the RDX that was used in the blast. (He was arrested on Nov.5, 2008).
(2). Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur (38): Her bike was used to plant the bomb in Malegaon, and she is accused of engineering the blast. She has a Masters in History, and became a sadhvi in Jan.2007. (She was arrested on Oct.23).
(3). Rakesh Dhawde (35): Dhawde, an arms expert, has been booked for four previous bomb blast cases. He provided the required weapon training and supplied arms to Purohit. (He was arrested on Nov.2, 2008).
(4). Swami Dayanand Pandey alias Shankar Acharya alias Sukhakar Dwuvedi (40): He can be seen as the key point man and is said to have been present at the meetings held in Bhopal, Pune and Faridabad before the Malegaon blasts. He is also accused of conducting meetings with the other accused. Prior to his arrest, he ran two ashrams in Kanpur and Jammu and Kashmir. (He was arrested on Nov.14, 2008).
5). Retd. Maj. Ramesh Upadhyaya (64): A resident of Akurdi, Pune, he worked with the military’s intelligence unit, and is suspected to have provided the training required for procuring and assembling the bombs. (He was arrested on Oct.28, 2008).
(6). Ajay Rahrikar (39): He was the treasurer of the Abhinav Bharat, and a part of the fund-raisers group. He paid Rs. 2.5 lakh to Swami Dayanand Pandey prior to the blast. (He was arrested on Nov.2, 2008).
(7). Jagdish Mhatre (40): A habitual criminal and an accused in a murder and an extortion case in Kalyan and Thane, he is believed to have paid Dhawde for the weapons. (He was arrested on Nov.2, 2008).
(8). Sameer Kulkarni (32): A former member of the Akhil Bharatiya Vidhyarthi Parishad (ABVP), he was employed at a printing press. He is suspected to have supplied the chemicals used in the bomb. (He was arrested on Oct.28, 2008).
(9). Sudhakar Chaturvedi (37): Originally a resident of Mirzapur in UP, Chaturvedi was picked up from Deolali where he stayed in a rented room. He is accused of conspiracy; the bomb was assembled in his house. (He was arrested on Nov.4, 2008).
(10). Sham Bhanwarlal Sahu (42): He is suspected to be one of the bomb planters. A commerce graduate from Christian College in Indore, Sahu has a mobile phone shop and also acted as a realty broker. He is also accused of abetting the blasts and conspiracy. (He was arrested on Oct.23, 2008).
(11). Shivnarayan Kalsangra Singh (36): A BSc graduate, Singh is seen as a “mechanical and electrical” expert by the ATS. He is suspected to have assembled the timer device while making the bomb. (He was arrested on Oct.23, 2008).
they are only few mentioned,these brhmncl terrorists are the greatest danger to india.
Tajender Mian,
I am so proud of these Indians! Wish there was more of them
7, 2012 at 5:02 am
Tajender Mian,
I am so proud of these Indians! Wish there was more of them
ooperwala aapkee tammana poore kare.
I am so proud of these Indians! Wish there was more of them.
romain,
do but dont blame others.
“I am so proud of these Indians! Wish there was more of them…”
.
These guys are no different than Nathu Ram Godse and will be dealt with similarly under the Indian justice system.
[It is essential that all societies and governments make a concerted effort to challenge the forces of prejudice, intolerance and racism.]
Are you sure that it is possible to do so in Pakistan without challenging the very rationale for creating that country?
to tajender
Indian hindu society is not protecting terrorists, whereas muslim societies are protecting and training muslim street-gangs and terrorists. That is a big difference. Muslim lawyers are showering rose petals on muslim killers. Hindu terrorists are reacting against the infiltration of islam and its fascism-imperialism into India. Hindu terrorists are not active in Makkah or Madinah, but muslim terrorists are active all over the world. In the hindu-muslim conflict the hindus are reacting to the violence by the muslim aggressors. You can’t equate the defensive violence of the hindus with the imperialist-expansionist violence and ideology of the muslims. Hindus are resorting to violence since the indian govt. is being blackmailed by muslims and indian govt. is hence incapable of protecting the hindus in India.
I was born in free India. I have no idea of who were responsible for the partition of the country. My ancestors with free will decided to be the part of this nation. And therefore, I refuse to carry the burden of partition.
I have two identities: Indian and a Muslim. Indian Constitution guarantees me rights for both of my identities. I enjoy all the fundamental rights as any other Indian would enjoy. But in addition to these, I have extra rights as the religious minority. The Constitution enshrines that I, as a member of Muslim minority community, have the right to preserve, protect and promote my identity, language, script and culture by establishing and administering educational institutions of my choice.
I thank the wisdom of the framers of the constitution to provide all this. These builders of modern India were perhaps worried about the minorities being excluded from the fruits of freedom. In a way these rights were conferred to strengthen the feeling of security in the nascent stage of a nation marred by communal conflagration during and after partition. The intention was to provide the minorities with full opportunities to participate in the governance and thus contributing in the overall development of the nation. The picture which emerges out after six decades of freedom is contrary to the supposed intentions of the great visionaries of freedom movement. Constitutional promise for the protection of the interests of the minorities remains more or less a paper promise. As per one estimate of the Home Ministry, Government of India, a total of 13,356 serious anti-Muslim riots have happened between 1954 and 1992. It seems that the only concern for the Muslim minority (MM) is the security of person, dignity and property. And that’s what political parties promise them in lieu of their votes as if these parties will do some
mercy by providing security. It’s their right as the citizen to which they are entitled.
In the last 65 years, MM has seen lots of Ups and downs in their social, educational and economic status. To diagnose the causes of such decline in their status Sachar Committee was appointed in 2005, which submitted its report in November, 2006 recommending many measures to uplift the status of MM. As per the findings of the committee, over a period of time the percentage of MM has seen a gradual decline in public sector jobs and educational institutions. Their representation in institutions of higher learning is almost negligible. The report says, MM were 1.3% in IIMs and 3.3% in IITs in years 2004 to 2005 and 2006. Muslims share in the students who complete graduation is only 3.4%. In civil services it is 3% in IAS, 1.8% in IFS and 4% in IPS. Taken cumulatively, its share is 4.9% in PSUs, Education, Railways, Judiciary, Health, Transport and Home Affairs. Muslims’ percentage in bureaucracy is just 2.5 % whereas they constitute about 14% of India’s population. Literacy level in the Muslims is just 59.1%, which is much below the national average of 65.1%. Not only this, unemployment rate among Muslim graduates is the highest among other socio-religious groups. This report captures clearly the deprivation when it observes ‘Muslim localities are not covered well with pucca roads, bus stops, medical and postal facilities’. People have started saying, if you want to identify a Muslim locality, you can easily do so by noticing the lack of basic civic amenities. Why this total apathy towards one community, when everybody is the equal citizen. We have been living in the ganga-jamuni tehzeeb (composite culture) since centuries, but the lack of concerns for the Muslims points to something fishy in the scheme of things of our policy makers and implementers.
One wonders, why Muslims only become the target of stringent laws. Our experiences with TADA, POTA and UAPA have been of extreme of pain and anguish. The data of number of cases registered under these stringent laws shows majority of Muslims as accused, who after going through trauma and sufferings were let off due to lack of evidence. By 30 June, 1994, the arrests under TADA had exceeded 76,000. About 25 percent of these cases were dropped by the police without even framing charges. Of the 35 percent cases that were brought to trial, 95 percent resulted in acquittals. The conviction rate for these laws was less than 2 percent. TADA and POTA have to go off the legal lexicons because of evidences surfacing with regard to targeting of Muslims and slapping false terror cases on them. The sad part is that, this politics of targeting minority youths still continuesunabated.
Even after so many years of these laws going to the gallows, the situation more or less remains the same. The story of injustice remains the same only the characters are changing. A recent study of the Socio-economic Profile and Rehabilitation Needs of Muslim Community in Prisons in Maharashtra, 2011, Dr. Vijay Raghavan and Roshni Nair from the Centre for Criminology and Justice School of Social Work, Tata Institute of Social Sciences (TISS) points out that 96 per cent of the prisoners interviewed are not held under preventive detention charges. This means that they are not potential threat to law and order. The study also indicates that although as per Sachar Committee report Maharashtra has 10.6 per cent Muslim population but they comprise 32.4 per cent of the prison population. All this smells of the institutional bias against the Muslim community. When a Muslim youth is arrested, charges of carrying out terrorist activities at various places are put on him without going through a fair and deeper investigation. For instance in 1998 one Mohammad Aamir Khan aged 18 years was arrest in Delhi and was accused of 20 terror cases. It took 14 years to pronounce him not guilty case after case. In January, 2011 he walked out of jail only to find his mother paralyzed and friends deserting him because of terrorist tag on him. In another glaring instance, 70 Muslim youths were picked up and charged for carrying out Mecca Masjid blasts in 2007 at Hyderabad. After five long years, they were all acquitted and now government is giving them 70 lakhs as compensation. Here a question arises, can this compensation amount return the youthful age that they wasted in the confines of the jail. They had to undergo trauma of being a terrorist for no fault of theirs. This practice of injustice and violation of human rights must end.
To make the situation worse, Housing apartheid in urban India has become a reality. If you are a Muslim, you can find heaven for yourself but not a house on rent in the localities dominated by non-Muslim communities. This has forced Muslims to live in ghettos further alienating them from the mainstream and composite culture mosaic. If in a train or a bus or a government office a man with a beard and skull cap is seen, the reaction on the faces of the co-passengers or the public officers changes dramatically. They look at him as if an alien has descended on their private property. The bearded man’s only fault is that he belongs to the Muslim minority community. The alienation of the Muslim youths is not a good sign for a healthy democracy. Today, educated Muslim youths are leaving under fear psychosis. They are under the spell of fear all the time that any day they can be behind the bars under the false charges only to be released after decades, crumbling-down their aspirations and dreams.
Despite all the above-mentioned aberrations, I still see the light at the end of the tunnel. There is still a ray of hope. Everything has not come to an end. Things can be improved. The only thing required is that system should run as per the spirit of the Constitution. Biases and prejudices can only be removed if the bureaucratic and political set-up runs in accordance with the rule of law. Principles of fairness and natural justice must be adhered to in every situation. It is only then the confidence and trust of the minority community can be restored and strengthened. Inclusiveness should be the mantra. We cannot live in isolation or ghettos. Prosperous and peaceful India can only emerge from the contribution of all its citizens, whether majority or minority. I will feel proud of my Indian identity when my Muslim identity is kept intact and is provided every possible opportunity to develop myself socially, educationally, politically and financially. The gulf between two of my identities is striking. This has to be bridged. By: Abdul Hafiz GandhiResearch Scholar,Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.Ex-President, Aligarh Muslim University Students’ Union.Email: abdulhafizgandhi@gmail.com09953585693
Indian hindu society is not protecting terrorists
society itself is terrorist.
to tajender and abdul hafiz gandhi
Indian society will have to get rid of the scourge of arabic imperialism and fascism brought in by islam. It is unfortunate that hindus are still not recognizing the evil that is in islam which is an alien, anti-indian, arabic, totalitarian, fascist ideology. Hindus are still giving too many concessions to the agents and quislings of islam (like you).
Islam was created in Makkah and Madinah and hence muslims are agents and quislings of an alien imperialism in India. Merely because they talk in the name of some arab god does not mean they are not dangerous to India. In fact they are more dangerous because they act out and glorify their treacheries against India by quoting some arab god.
The muslim population component in India has grown from 6.5% (1947) to 18% (2012) today – and that is a clear case of aggression against non-muslims (hindus). Muslims don’t deserve anything in India. They must go to the islamic paradises of Pakistan or Arabia. Islam’s long term goal is the decimation/extermination of hindus – as has already happened in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Muslims pretend to be innocent victims and try to hide their own evil deeds and plans.
It is unfortunate that hindus are still not recognizing the evil that is in islam which is an alien, anti-indian, arabic, totalitarian, fascist ideology
hinduism in practice is nothing but apartheism.hindus are only 3%total samaj 13% slaves 74%.slave hate u.brhmnsm is as alien as islam.u are writing all these bullshit living in alien country.very soon brhmns will migrate or kicked out and people like u will be found in zoo.that time only tajender will help u.
ABDULHAFIZ GANDHI : You derive your rights from a piece of paper called the Constitution of India. That Constitution of India does not work on the ground in India. It is a dead-lettered document.
Then what rules ? WHat is the real constitution of India /
It is Savarkar’s world-view and mindset.. It is Golwalkar’s Bunch of Letters.. These rule the HEARTS (EMOTIONS) and MIND of India This is a fact.
So compare a piece of paper versus. a living emotion (mob emotion) and you will reach the answer.
I am not trying to undermine your worldview. I hope against hope that YOU ARE RIGHT… but… chances are slim… because Congress (Indira) is the “B” team of the RSS., and to be honest., Rahula Gandhi (7th in line – generation – from Motilal Nehru Dynasty) is FAR MORE DANGEROUS to Indian Muslims than Narendra Modi.
Narendra Modi is crude. Rahula Gandhi is the sophisticated version of Modi. Both are in unison as far as curbing/crushing the rights of Indian Muslims are concerned.
After the verdict of the Supreme Court of India, in favour of the Raja of Mahmudabad., both Congress & BJP joined hands., to circumvent the JUDGEMENT. That explained the ground reality. When it comes to rape/kill/mail/loot muslim property., Congress and BJP are on the same side.
They must go to the islamic paradises of Pakistan or Arabia. Islam’s long term goal is the decimation/extermination of hindus – as has already happened in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Muslims pretend to be innocent victims and try to hide their own evil deeds
ahem
muslim population was 33%in 1947.95%of indians are indian by dna.while 100%brhmns are foreigner as per their dna.tell evil deeds of muslims.
95%of indians
95%of indian muslims.sorry
Mr Ghandhi
If I were you, I wouldn’t worry about being proud of your Indian identity.
That is simply a practical decision, even if we leave out its solid theological underpinnings. It appears most unlikely that others in India will bridge the gap between your Islamic identity and your Indian identity. This is not even necessary in India – probably a good thing.
Beej, IMHO, Mr Ghandhi has been consistently deceived by Hindus – not necessarily personally but by the society at large. If you remember, my friend Shah ji never used to be able to find a restaurant in Calcutta that would let a Muslim eat. Mr Ghandhi can’t find a house in India to rent. It appears unreasonable to waste the rest of his life hoping Hindus would do what they haven’t done in the last 65 years.
Goel sahib:
Eliciting discussion on an important subject is better than sitting on the sidelines. The caveat being that one must not get to full of oneself!
Mr. Kumar:
We know that Pakistan has to fight a major battle against extremism much of it imbedded in society and the state. However, to blame the TNT for Pakistan’s prevailing extremism seems a bit far-fetched.
Mr. Gandhi,
I don’t know from where to start but since you started from 1947, lets start from there:
1. You say, you have 2 identities. Why 2 identities? For me, being an indian is the only identity I flaunt where ever I go and even when in India, my primery identity is derived from place I belong to, not from the religion I belong to.I am identified as a bhojpuri, a bihari, an indian and not as a muslim/hindu or pathan/Brahmin or sayad/Rajput etc. The duality of identity gives you an element of indecisiveness and thats why most of the time muslims are doubted and with Valid reasons.
2. You talked about 13356 “Anti Muslims Riots” between 1954 and 1992 as if muslims were all silent bystanders in all these riots!!!??? As if defying THE SUPREME COURT of INDIA on SHAH BANO case was an incident and example of respecting the very same constitution of India which guarantees you your dual identity!!! As if occupying SUBHASH PARK another example of respecting the law of the land against the orders of the district court!!! Grow up man!!! Ganga dhaba’s type intellectual BC will never be enough to cover up the fallacies in your arguments and your intellectual bankruptcy.
3. You talk about TADA, POTA and UAPA. Kuraan pe hin haath rakh ke bol do ki ’93 blast was doing of non muslims!!! Mumbai 26/11 was done by all hindus and when one of them got caught he changed his name or for that matter 98% of blasts and 95% of terrorist activitied carried out in India are of MUSLIMS. Till 2000-2002, Muslim youth never felt itself a part of India as much as their hindu counterparts and now since they see that hindus and other Indians (including a better % of muslims)who assimilated themselves well in the mainstream society, are enjoying the fruit of economic growth and prosperity, they are crying foul with the help of other converts like Teesta seetalwad. It is a well proven fact that converts show more fanaticism in order to prove their loyality.
4. You talk about “Khachchar Committee”. When you never felt a part of the mainstream society and never tried to assimilate its quite natural that you will be left behind. There are 2 examples I will quote against your accusation of “Housing Aparthied” and “Less representation” of muslims in India.
a. In 1988, My elder brother and a certain Mr. XXX, son of my father’s colleague, Ahmed uncle, passed their metriculation exam and though my father requested his colleague to send his son also to Patna Science College, he refused and sent him to AMU. A really meritorious student, though no fault of the institution, and God only knows what happened, was spoilt.His academic credentials (marks etc) are not good enough to fetch him a respectable job. His last news, I got from our common friends in 2005 was that he was back to his farmlands, and was a father of 3 kids. Slowly but surely deeply sinking into poverty with the fourth one expected and deteriorating income from farming…
b. This also happens in my neibhourhood where in a cul-de-sac there were 7-8 families residing. The first two were the hindu families and rest were muslims. A new muslim family was brought in by the others and one of the hindu house owner was coaxed in renting the ground floor to the new family. He was troubled so much by that ” Allah ka nek bandaa” that after 4-5 years of requesting and in the end a show of strength and payment of 35000 INR to the tenet for taking care of ground floor by house owner, the property was finally reoccupied. I was there when the negotiation was happening and what surprised me most was the counter offer by the muslim family saying that he is 70 years old, has one son and 2-3 houses/appartments. what will he do with all these. I will pay a lakh rupees. Ask him to sell it to me. Imagine!!! That guy was saying that and on top of it he kept repeating that just because I am a muslim you are forcing me to vacate!!!
It does not matter whether I am a hindu or muslim but one thing for sure I am going to follow and teach my kids. No matter what you do but never rent a house/appartment to muslims. Call it “housing apparthied if you wish…
5. “The bearded man’s only fault is that he belongs to the Muslim minority community.” Not quite. His only fault is that he choses to flaunt his religion where there is no need. That too at a time when whole world is wary of muslims, its certainly not a good, leave alone great idea to flaunt your religiousity and play your muslim card. In a secular country religious identity should not be shown in public places. this should be made a law. There are many brahmins who don’t keep ‘shikha’ or ‘choti’ as it signals them out and becomes a hindrence in talking to their other friends of other casts. Don’t trust me!!! Look around you and move around in the villages and small towns in not only in Bihar or UP but in almost all of India except J&K as all hindus from kashmir vally are forced out by pious mulims. You will find it out.
There is a saying in bhojpuri which says,”Aandhi aawe baith gawanwe” traslated in english, it means lie low when the bad times befall…
Rest, since you are a research scholor of JNU, I trust your reasoning and deducing abilities…
Regards
Muslims are taught that muslims were and are always the innocent noble-minded guys in all interactions with non-muslims since 1400 years. No muslim dares to doubt that or wants to doubt that.
What discussion are we carrying on with such scoundrels?
Muslims are taught that they must always glorify and defend islam and muslim leaders, and never to concede a fact to the non-muslims if the fact makes it difficult to defend islam’s glory, conquests and lies.
Islam teaches that a muslim must please the arab god allah by briging more land, resources, people and political power under the boot of islam. Every discussion with muslims makes this clear.
You can strain all your hopes and friendliness and honesty to talk to a muslim, but he will end up blaming non-muslims and presenting himself as the innocent victim of non-muslims’ evil desings against (the arabic one-and-only god) allah.
If we allow this 7th century arabic allah-god (a fake god) and his agents to occupy their throne of arrogance, conceit and greed then we non-muslims will be exterminated.
One trick which muslims are using is to drive a wedge of distrust or slander betwen various non-muslims and destroy each non-muslim minority, one after another. A look at the historical advancement of islamic teritorial, political and demographic imperialism over the past 1400 years will prove this.
If non-muslims take a sentimental look at muslims and their pains, which are mostly caused by islam, then the muslims will deceive the non-muslims evermore. Any sympathy by non-muslims for islam and its followers will be used by the muslims to decimate/enslave/exterminate non-muslims.
The fate of hindus in Pakistan (or christians in Anatolia or zoroastrians in Iran) is or will be the fate of mankind under islam. After non-muslims have been de facto eliminated the muslims will let loose blood-baths against one another in the name of this same allah and his supposed “mercy and justice”.
abdul hafiz ghandhi,
you say you have two identities – Indian and Muslim.
.
Please if you can let us know what exactly comprises your Indian identity?
.
Do you treat India as just another modern state, with citizens with rights and duties (not many people know of that), or do you look at it as a civilization?
.
In what way does India influence your identity which goes beyond your Muslim identity borne out of current politics and history of Muslim rule in India?
.
Does the question of Indian Civilization before Islamic invasions into India enter your consciousness or is it simply ignored?
.
If the above question enters your consciousness, does it go beyond the usual Muslim, Marxist, Western narrative of caste and shiv ling worshipers?
.
I am just curious, what is all that belongs to your Indian identity!
.
Thanks
“We know that Pakistan has to fight a major battle against extremism much of it imbedded in society and the state. However, to blame the TNT for Pakistan’s prevailing extremism seems a bit far-fetched.”
.
Saad Sb, to connect Pakistan’s extremism (and to some extent India’s too, although India has managed it better) to the TNT and the context in which Pakistan was formed is not entirely unreasonable. The extremism did not start suddenly with Zia, or with the Ahmedis declared non-Muslims, or with the Objectives Resolutions by which Pakistanis granted all sovereignty to Allah. Extremism in the sub-continental Muslims (and by extension in the Hindus too) started before that.
.
See below how the Direct Action Day manifesto distributed in the mosques in Calcutta virtually called for a holy war. It’s irrelevant who died more or less on that day but that it triggered something similar to a holy war, reciprocated by the Hindus in equal terms, is enough for extremism to take root.
.
“Special Munajat (Prayer) should be offered in every mosque on Friday after Juma prayers for the freedom of Muslim India, the Islamic world and the peoples of India and the East in general. The “Munajat” has been printed and published and is available from 8, Zakaria Street, Calcutta.
.
I appeal to the Musalmans of Calcutta, Howrah, Hooghly, Matiaburz and 24-Parganas to rise to the occasion and make the rally a unique success. We are in the midst of the rainy season and the month of Ramazan fasting. But this is a month of real Jehad of God’s grace and blessings, spiritual armament, and the moral and physical purge of the nation. It is a supreme occasion of our trial. Let Muslims brave
the rains and all difficulties and make the Direct Action Day meeting a historic mass mobilization of the Millat. Muslims must remember that it was in Ramazan that the Quran was revealed. It was in Ramazan that the permission for Jehad was granted by Allah. It was in Ramazan that the Battle of Badr the first open conflict between Islam and Heathenism was fought and won by 313 Muslims and again it was in
Ramazan that 10,000 Muslims under the Holy Prophet conquered Mecca and established the kingdom of Heaven and the commonwealth of Islam
in Arabia. The Muslim League is fortunate that it is starting its actions in this holy month.”
.
Moulana Azad and Humayun Kabir called the 1946 elections not really an election but a call to Jihad to secure an Islamic state. Here is Azad:
.
“In fact the elections in Bengal were hardly an election in the normally understood meaning of the term. It was more in the nature of a crusade in which the worst religious passions were excited than an election in the modern age where political parties placed before their constituencies alternate programmes to be carried out through legislature”
.
Here is Humayun Kabir, an Oxford gradute first class MA (just in case you disregard Azad for being a “Moulana”), future Education Minister, and the uncle of present day Indian Supreme Court Judge Altamas Kabir:
.
“Another feature of the present Bengal elections was the constant fanning of religious fanaticism. On behalf of the League it was preached in meetings and throughout pamphlets that anybody who voted against the League would incur divine displeasure. The effect of such propaganda on the illiterate masses can be easily understood. In many cases the electors lost their freedom of judgement on account of interference by their religious teachers and threats of divine displeasure and punishment in the afterlife”
.
The nationalist Muslims were branded “Shaitans”, anti-Islamic, and it was said of them by the Leaguers,
.
“They remembered the prayer but they forgot the chain of armor donned by the Prophet Muhammad when he went forth to fight the unequal battle with the infidels …They misled the Muslims to the unworthy tenets of Ahimsa”
.
If this was the context in which the AIML won its Pakistan mandate, does it matter if Jinnah had a different vision of a secular Islam?
.
During the Constituent Assembly deliberations for the Objectives Resolution the TNT was adopted time and again to silence the critics B. K. Dutta, Srish Chandra Chatterjee, Kiran Shankar Ray, Kamini K. Gupta. Since then whenever Pakistan has been under democratic rule, the extremism has been on the rise, and this is consistent with the founding morale of the subcontinental Muslims to build an Islamic state with Sharia. Thus tracing back the extremism to TNT is not far fetched. Before TNT there was religious nationalism, but by and large, not at the expense of the other. TNT brought hate for each other and since then it has been downhill. For Pakistanis in particular, before it was the Ahmedis the Shias the east Pakistanis, it was the Hindus and Sikhs the extremism was pointed at.
Mr. Ghandhi,
No matter how much the free nations bend over backwards but muslims will find a way to claim persecution and discrimnation be it in India, US , Europe philipines thailand… name the country you want.
Look within and you shall get all the answers to the accusations you have levied.
You also prove that their is a common theme of mis information goes on in muslim dominated institutions cutting across countries & comments from ahem are not all that out of place.
Abdul hafiz ghandhi :
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. You are right to point out discrimation from an Indian Muslim POV but discrimination is inherent in the Indian society because it is a function of who we are. If you look hard enough you may well find discrimination on the base of caste, class, region and religion. That is just the beginning. Then we have ethnic and linguistic based and not the least based on sex.
.
That may be appear bad but OTOH also means that there is no on Indian prototype; we are a nation of a hundred minorities. In such a land the solution that sort of works; the only solution that can ever work is based on our constitution; a democracy based on the rule of law.
.
Dronacharya calls it a ‘piece of paper’ perhaps; but better than all the alternatives. Jinnah tried an alternative and the cure he found was worse than the disease. Gandhi rightly diagnosed it a malady of our society rather than a constitutional problem but his remedy was too austre and too difficult for the Indians to practice.
.
Nehru first pretended that it was only class struggle; to be fixed by socialism; it took a bloody partition for him to understand the savage nature of our people.
.
Only Bhim Rao Ambedkar had no illusions and put his faith in a solution that has a chance to work; a modern constitution based on justice and equality. Knowing his people too well he added the following words of warning on 25th Nov. 1949; the eve of the completion of our constitution:
“In politics we may have equality but in social and economic life we will have inequality. In politics we will be recognizing the principle of one man one vote and one vote one value. In social and economic life, we shall, by reason of our social and economic structure, continue to deny the principle of one man one value. How long shall we continue to live this life of contradictions? How long shall we continue to deny equality in our social and economic life? If we continue to deny it for long, we will do so only by putting our political democracy at peril.”(BR Ambedkar)
.
It remains to be seen whether future generations of Indians will heed these or not. If they do not; they ignore it at their own peril for the only thing that holds India together is this ‘piece of paper’. The stronger we make it; the stronger India gets and vice versa. For once enough Indians lose faith in it (God forbid) that will be the end of India; the third largest land army in the world notwithstanding….
Dronacharya:
“Congress (Indira) is the “B” team of the RSS., and to be honest., Rahula Gandhi (7th in line – generation – from Motilal Nehru Dynasty) is FAR MORE DANGEROUS to Indian Muslims than Narendra Modi….”
.
You can either live in the Jinnah World view (that there are only two political entities in India; Hindu= Congress; Muslims=AIML or you can open the window in your mind and let some fresh air come in sometimes.
Take UP for example; both the congress and the BJP (your RSS) have been decimated there; and it is now a arena for two alternative aprties; the BSP and SP thanks in part to the Muslim vote. There are 70 Muslim MLAs there in UP today…
RajTOO (August 7, 2012 at 7:21 pm)
abdul hafiz ghandhi,
Do you treat India as just another modern state, with citizens with rights and duties (not many people know of that), or do you look at it as a civilization?
.
The first part of the statement is a fact; and it makes question in second half irrelevant.
Mythbuster,
.
India became a state in 1947. So did it become a civilization only after that?
.
Is the question really that irrelevant?
MythBuster, I am very impressed in the succient way you have captured the essence of the whole problem in your post to Ghandi.
But in your post to Rajtoo, I am not sure about the civilization part being irrelevent. Civilization part represents the legacy that perhaps provides the roadmap of the evolution from the legacy.
All peoples must continue to evolve. The trick is how much of the baggage of the legacy can be shed along the way. Macroscopically, there are two Indias today. Theose who have benefitted from the liberalization and those who have not.
For the ones who have not, the refuge is the legacy. Those who have have shed large portions of it.
Me thinks that what Rajtoo has been consistently implying in his posts is that religion in India is also evolving along the same paradigm as the economy. The fact that hinduism is not bound by a book helps significantly, at least in the Indian Context.
A good analogy is the evolution of Europe and inspite of Christianity being defined by a book, as the economy evolved, religion did so too and eventually became irrelevent in the lives of people. The cynic might say that moeny was the new religion. Perhaps. I am no philosopher just am observer.
Saad Hafiz,
Me thinks that TNT after 1971 is irrelevant. However, the essence of TNT seems to have become concentrated in Pakistan. Bangladeshis seemed to be have evolved out of it.
This essence is the rationale for holding your country together and is perhaps the reason why Pakistan is in such misery. I am not saying that we should undo the partition (I do not want to be lynched by the Indians) but what i have consitently said is that Pakistanis should find a sense of Pride and reason for existence other than “not Indian (read Hindu)”.
Anoop,
You are talking shit and I suspect you know it already. Why should Indian muslims go anywhere. They are Indian and want to be Indian. If they did not want to be Indian they would have gone to Pakistan long ago.
However, like the rest of the indians who are using caste to get ahead they are using their religion for economic benefit, in other words they are behaving like indians.
— a proud card carrying RSS member ( if you believe it)
Raj Too:
.
The Indian state is a living fact; based on an implied voluntary covenant made on our behalf; with well defined rights and duties. It has only one interpretation and needs nothing more to be one.
.
The Indian civilization OTOH is an agreed upon narrative; open to reinterpretations and debates among historians, reformers, thinkers and philosophers. It is subjective; and can have one billion interpretations based on interpretations of billion individuals in different contexts.
.
Heck I can even have different interpretations for myself; based on different aspects of my identity. I may even have different interpretations for different days of the week. It still does not diminish my Indianness; as long as I am loyal to my country and my constitution.
.
Hafiz Gandhi may have his own interpretation but since you asked, I will reproduce one interpretation of the Indian civilization that I find very stirring; from one of India’s great sons of yore:
.
I am a Muslim and profoundly conscious of the fact that I have inherited Islam’s glorious tradition of the last fourteen hundred years. I am not prepared to lose even a small part of that legacy. The history and teachings of Islam, its arts and letters, its culture and civilization are part of my wealth and it is my duty to cherish and guard them. But, with all these feelings, I have another equally deep realization, born out of my life’s experience which is strengthened and not hindered by the Islamic spirit. I am equally proud of the fact that I am an Indian, an essential part of the indivisible unity of the Indian nationhood, a vital factor in its total makeup, without which this noble edifice will remain incomplete…. (Abdul Kalam Azad)
Mythbuster,
Thanks for referring to the beautiful quote of Azad. It must also serve as a useful reminder to all the wannabe arabs in our subcontinent that of all the arab posers here, Azad could genuinely claim to have at least 50% arab ancestry but he chose to emphasize his subcontinental ancestry.
Romain,
Christianity and Scientific Evolution could not have gone together, so the society decided to divide itself in two, the rationals responsible for science and the religious responsible for Christianity, with some haphazard but failed efforts by some Western philosophers to marry the two.
.
The European experience is not relevant to India, simply because Hinduism does not share the same relationship with science as Christianity does. Ignorant Pseudo-seculars, Marxists and Macaulayites, who have only read Western stuff buy the argument whole-scale that scientific temperament and spirituality cannot mix. They cannot mix because of the Abrahamic religious model.
.
Hinduism has no such issues. The birth of Hinduism has been in science, in astronomy and nature. Much of Hindu mythology can only be explained in astronomical terms or natural phenomenon. The grand idea of Vedic thinking has been the reflection of the same patterns in all three realms – cosmic, social and psychological, and man’s effort to align the three realms.
.
Individual Freedom lies at the very core of Hinduism, where everybody has a right to forge his life and choose his varna according to his gunas (qualities) and his svadharma (individual spiritual path).
.
The foundation of Hindu Society lies on the mighty rock of Dharma, which is not some program of ten commandments and a list of dos and donts, but is a system to teach every individual how to judge right from wrong using his own intelligence, specific to his own context – both situational and professional.
.
The reform and evolution of Hindu society is all about getting rid of customs which have entered the society due to greed or fear, bringing it back to her primary ideals.
.
That is why India has the fortitude in social fabric despite centuries of influence from Islam, Christianity, Marxism, Macaulayism, Pseudo-Secularism and now Yuppieism. Some here may think India runs on tolerance inducted into India by Nehru and his clan, but it is not so. Gandhi was able to tap into this social strength. Indian Constitution may be good, but it is the inherent Indic Civilization which ensures India’s positive trajectory.
.
I see there are innumerable Indians here thinking that Indian history starts and ends with the Indian National Congress! It doesn’t!
Mythbuster,
in that quote from Azad, can you reproduce anything which says he did not want to convert whole of India to Islam and that that was not his primary aim of keeping India together?
.
The difference between him and Jinnah was that that Jinnah wanted to have the power right away and wanted to ensure the longevity of the fortunes and land of the Subcontinental Muslim elite. Maulana was more in the mold of Maududi, just clever enough not to let his Islamism hang out too much. Azad was willing to let the Muslims bide their time in the Subcontinent, increase in strength with time, and then take over everything, putting the Hindus either to the sword or to conversion or to eternal Dhimmitude.
.
That is Islam Standard Operating Procedure (SoP). They divide themselves when weak, so that one part looks for strength and purity (Pakistan) while the other part sees its role as a cancer, eating away at the host. The division allows the host to remain affected. It is a strategy of both short term and long term gains!
.
Then there are pseudo-seculars among us, who ensure that all efforts to eradicate the cancer never succeeds and they keep the immune system of the host deliberately weak using their hollow sermons of secularism (one-sided) and constitutionality.
Mythbuster wrote:
Your interpretations neither change the narrative nor spoil it.
.
Your loyalty to the country and constitution may be real but it is based on naivety. The monkey who held the sword and protected the raja from the flies was also loyal! This makes such naivety particularly dangerous. This naivety is based on putting talcum powder and make-up over all the cancerous sores and lesions, not willing to see it for what it is! This naivety is dangerous because one may use one’s social status to vouch for a cancer-free body and people may simply believe you, considering your assessment trustworthy.
.
One need not take ahem’s position of keeping on throwing adjectives and abstractions at Islam incessantly, but talcum powder and make-up is also stupid.
Romain:
.
A large part of our problems in India today are because we interpret our history in light of the European experience and thus vainly look for solutions in the same European framework. European nations are is much more homogenous and fall smaller than us. Over half a Millennia they browbeat and bludgeoned their other identities; of religion, ethnicity and language and somehow shoehorned them into that which they call ‘national narrative based national identities’.
.
I am not sure how to make it work for a large number of our compatriots.
.
Take for example the latest Indian we are all proud of today; Mary Kom.
How much is the commonly agreed upon, Ganga valley civilization a part of her?
How much is she part of it? What is the narrative from her POV? Should her narrative be any less important for her? Does it make her any less Indian? Aren’t we proud of her just the same?
Rajtoo,
Thank you for the the Arya Samaji lesson. Yes, I am aware of it. The varnas become by birth because of economic and social benefits. and your thought represents that half of the Indians that have. At least that is the observation I have made. Why, because it is much more convenient and meaningfull now. The fact that the transition is not inhibited by the book is what i was trying to say.
“The monkey who held the sword and protected the raja from the flies was also loyal…”
.
Fortunately or unfortunately; democracy is a great equalizer and the monkey and the Raja are at the same level and strange things happen, not to everyone’s liking.
.
If you follow Drona’s narrative for example, today the Monkeys are sitting on the throne and the Raja’s are charged with keeping the flies away…
Mythbuster,
Me thinks Bill Clinton (of the I did not inhale fame) got it right in his speech to the Indian parliament.
The very fact that Mary Kom a non-saraswati civilation (a minor correction here), non hindu, non Aryan descent is being hailed speaks volumes. Everybody loves a winner. It shows that the impossible can be achieved. But in India this is possible only in the areas where TV has penetrated. What about areas where there is no TV?
If you remember this poor bihari who broke the bank with Kaun banega corepati (albeit he was helped by some ez questions) ? This tone is changing the narrative for some of the Indians.
The problem with the diaspora is that they are not in tune with this change of narrative. That is why you see the ahems (who in my opinion is not wrong with his message as it pertains to the Pakis but I wish this record would not be stuck on the single grove), unable to let go.
Folks, the folks back home do not give a shit about somebody being a muslim, dalit, etc. Its all passe unless they are economically affected by it. That is why, I like the elections in UP. Peeps are now voting for economic benefit but the politicians still whip up the caste/communal card to differentiate themselves. – No different in US or France or Greece etc.
I wish for once the discussion on Pakteahouse would remain focussed on the topic of the board.
The question I have for Pakis is isnt there something nice happening in your country?
Myth and Rajtoo, shouldnt it be this way?
Mr Ghandi, become unconditional Indian before you make demands on Indians. India is a Kaffir Mulk and society proud of its Kuffar values and civilzation. IMHO, people like you are the honored and honest candidate to enjoy TNT previledges and rightful owner of Paki islamic dream. Sir, why do you think Kuffar is responsible for your over all progress and well being when you very islamic identity calls for the negation of Kuffar in india, Asia, Europe, Amercia and Africa? FYI, islam is the reason Indians lost land as well 80-100 Millions IndiAN lifes and you expect out of way favours at our own expence becaUse of medieval Islamic chains wraped around are now suffocating you. The enemity of Pakistan with India is because of islam and you also demand concessions in the name of Islam . Please tell how and why Kuffar need to oblige.
Interesting response from a well placed Indian friend who like me does not think the roots of extremism lie in historic precedents alone but have a modern cultural and social context probably in the preponderance of ignorance and illiteracy.
“Now to the subject: The Khaps are regressive idiots and to crown it all they are in the areas around Delhi. India, despite its diversity, has lots of morons (far too many) and criminals (many in Parliament and State legislatures). I suppose we will middle along.
I don’t think I will see a modern India in my lifetime. Maybe not in my childrens either. Maybe not even in my grandchildren’s time or indeed ever. The people are far too ignorant and passive and care only to get through the day. That and illiteracy. It is the illiterates who elect the thugs in power.
Thank God we have been spared the pain that Pakistan is currently facing and that our people have not gravitated to the Taliban’s terrible ideology.”
Saad Sahib,
For a time i thought you a smart man. Your last post removed that delusion.
The Khaaps are both good and bad. The good part is that they are against cousin marriage thereby preventing the procreation of biological (as opposed to intellectual) idiots. The bad part is that they are too scared of societal change and want to codify the caste system.
Yet, they are failing in both the good and bad parts. the further one moves away from the Hindi belt, the less relevant the khaps become. Perhaps due to the lack of muslim influence.
But you are correct, maybe the Indians wont make it as whole till even your great grand children. Maybe they will never make it. Whatever make it is.
But a lot will make it and will be happy that they made it.
That should read “lack of historical muslim influence”
Mythbuster
Mary Kom is kaffir thus cannot be compared with Musalman. On top of that she is representing India. Comparison with her is like that of between Orange and apple, between Gandhi and Ghandi. Just like European framework dont apply on us , same way Arabic framework is not only irrelevant to us but also antithesis to our Civilizational values. Indians have no reason, obligation to honor, maintain and work within this non Indian pheneomenon. Talk India, indian issues and become Indians: Talk islam and its irrelevant mileu and expect indians to bend , Pakistan is your place.It was made for this very reason.
… And Saad Sahib, I hope you are alive to see it
Sachbol,
read my post to Anoop!! Applies to you as well