Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » PTH editor Raza Rumi and Co-editor Yasser Latif Hamdani discuss Jinnah with Samson Simon Sharaf
PTH editor Raza Rumi and Co-editor Yasser Latif Hamdani discuss Jinnah with Samson Simon Sharaf
Raza Rumi and Yasser Latif Hamdani discussed Jinnah’s life, vision and ideas with Brigadier (retired) Samson Simon Sharaf on 11 September 2012 in Brig Sharaf’s show “Insight and Foresight”.
Filed under: Uncategorized · Tags: Jinnah, PTH, Raza Rumi, Samson Simon Sharaf
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Mohan
Don’t you think many Hindus (and perhaps Christians too) in Pakistan would be very happy to pay that money if their lives and their womenfolk could be protected?
There is no harm using anything that is well understood by masses and which works. Pakistani Hindus and Christians should be demanding to pay jazia and receive protection for themselves and their families – so what if others don’t like it. Security must come first.
Muslims in India or elsewhere should demand the same. Minorities paying a jezia to authorities is a stable and valid political solution that must not be rejected simply because only Islam has promoted it thus far.
Kaal : If minorities in Pak or India pay Jezya.. then they must not pay OTHER taxes (like Income / Wealth / Capital gains Tax). Choose one of the two ! But this is 2012. Come on. If Pakistan is not protecting its minorities.. and kills them all.. do you want India to replicate the favour ? Kill all Indian Muslims. Reduce Indian Population by 13.5%. (Poverty too gets reduced by that %, thereby !). Is that what you want ?
On Vivekananda : Ah ! The meeting of Tata with Viveka. What a fine confluence of two of India’s finest sons.
I am sorry to say this… but i must. It may hurt people… but Indian Muslims did NOT produce Institution Builders. Tipu Sultan was one… (died 1799). A century after Tipu… another Institution builder.. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan established MAO College ! After a hundred years (approx.. i.e.).
After Sir Syed… there is a drought. Muslim India did not produce a TATA… because they were all employees (Naukri-Peshaa). They neglected industry.. commerce.. economy.. for the past 1000 years. Their vocation was jobs.. That is THE main reason this group of people DID NOT ADVANCE. There were Zemindars (Jagirs first confiscated… then dispersed by the British Criminal Looters/Gang of Thugs/Dakus/Occupiers of India)… Havelis… Horses.. and starched clothes. Muslim India did not have CASH FLOW…
The TATAs had money… because they engaged in COMMERCE. Merchant-Princes WERE THE FINANCIERS of the CONGRESS PARTY. They were the real BOSS(es) of PATEL. AND PATEL WAS THE BOSS OF GANDHI AND NEHRU.
Unless Muslims take to commerce.. enterprise.. and INSTITUTION BUILDING.. they are doomed. From Home-builders (Palaces).. they must graduate to Institution-Building. But they dont.. and they wont.
There is a certain joy in fatalism.. i suppose. Shahadat Ki Tamanna.. Marney ki aarzoo..
ahem
you should know how hilarious it is that you try and post in different pseudonyms. Your tenacity is admirable but your nom de plumes are simply delightful!
Although you have a point as far as Tajender is concerned…
Kaalchakra,
All the citizens of any country whether it is Pakistan or India should
be treated equally. Hindus or anyone from minority need not pay any
protection money and even in India Muslims should not pay any such tax. Sorry to say that but your comparison of Muslims in India and in
Hindus Pakistan is not correct as we have not seen Muslism from India going to Pakistan seeking any asylum.
KAALCHAKRA
==============
You deeply disappointed and disgusted me with the suggestion that minorities in India and Pakistan should pay jaziya or some kind of protection money for their safety.
India has loftier ideals- becoming like that degenerate war mongering, music banning imbecile Aurangzeb is not one of them.
TIPU SULTAN (1799) TO-DATE 2012 Via. Sir Syed (Approx 1899). Indian Muslims for the past 700+200+65=965 yrs.. became a nation of clerks. When Sir Syed saw the fall of Delhi 1857.. the NEED was IMMEDIATE. ROTI was the primary concern. Govt. was the only employer. There was NO Private Sector then. So Sir Syed set out to do something., that would produce Clerks.. so that the fire in the kitchen burns. He succeeded in his endeavour. Clerks in Black Sherwanis.. recovered the lost confidence (to some extent atleast)., and did what they did.
There was no movement among Muslims for ECONOMIC RENAISSANCE. Perhaps it was not too important a topic to dwell upon. There were more pressing things for them to do. Counter Arya Samaj’s “Shuddhi Sangathan”, Protest books written against the Holy Prophet (Lahore / Jus. Dalip Singh.. or was it Jus. Dayal Singh ?); there was the urgent need to protect “Urdu”; and be a Laboratory for implementing Islam on the ground ! These were things that EXCITED the muslims. (India had 560 Princely States. Where No Voting in /about Pakistan took place. EVEN in British India, the common man had no right to vote. Only selected Elites participated in the elections !).
To this date., protest against a cartoon (J. Posten); a novel (S. Rushdie); and now a movie clip on Facebook ! Protests-Protests-Protests. Now almost everyday some one will draw an insulting cartoon… write a novel… a song.. and make a home-movie and post it on You Tube.
Protest Kartey Raho. The US will pull back its Embassies from 53 muslim bastis., but not curb the freedom of one of its citizens. You cant to boycott US made goods. Go ahead. With pleasure.
Fakir ka gussa – Fakir ki jholi mein !
Muslims must IGNORE these cartoons / songs / novels / movie-clips on Youtube., and move on. Accept the fact that some people will abuse the Holy Prophet.. but His stature is not affected in the least. It is like spitting the sun/moon. The one who does it.. his face will be smeared ! So ignoring such nuisance is advisable.. but muslims come on the streets and die.
WHY do not they show the same excitement…for Physics… Math… and INSTITUTION BUILDING ? Only love for Prophet can bring them on the streets.. not love for Math and Physics, eh ?
If they really want to strengthen Islam at its roots, they must take to Education (Secular Education : Physics & Math)., and take to Institution Building. Cartoons Novels and Movie clips will die a natural death.. but no.. they wont take that root.
IS ISLAM and Muslim Faith in it so weak, that it could be destroyed/weakened by someone’s endeavour (SOng/Novel/Cartoon/movie-clip). If it is so… then it is a very weak faith…that cannot stand nuisance. Face the nuisance – ignore it – love your Prophet as b4 – and move on… Kaar-e-Aalam (worldly affairs) beckon you.
Jalsa-Jaloos Band Karo. Muslim Agenda should be Education & Institution Building (Commerce/Economy/Production of Goods & Services) Muslim Swadeshi for 200 yrs.. and then see how you rock !
@NDelhi
ROFL.
It was not a threat.
Translated into Delhi English, the sentence meant that if you had known me better, you would not have asked silly questions, knowing that whatever has to be said will have said plainly and clearly.
@Mohan
Looking back at what I wrote, I clearly mis-stated the whole thing. That sentence should have read,”Jizya is impoosed to guarantee full protection rights to non-Muslims living in a Muslim state.” Technically, Jizya being imposed implies that the state is a Muslim state, that the citizens are the Muslims resident in that state, and that non-Mislims are residents but not citizens of that state.
While your analogy is a little coarse-grained, Jizya is literally money – a poll-tax – paid to signify the payer’s acceptance of the Muslim state and its rules, to obtain exemption from military service, obligatory on every citizen (=Muslim resident) and TO OBTAIN PROTECTION FROM ANY MUSLIM.
If you want to be literal, it is protection money.
@Dronacharya
You must study Islamic jurisprudence and taxation more carefully if you are to comment. Payment of Jizya did not exempt a citizen from paying Ushur, for instance, so your formulation that payment of Jizya exempts the payer from all other taxes is not a good one.
Have you considered asking your madrassah for compensation for a job badly done?
VAJRA : I am interested in preserving Muslim Economy in Muslim Hands. Call it “MUSLIM SWADESHI”., atleast for the next 2-3 centuries.. till they outgrow the Infant Industry Maxim-stage. I do not care for any damn thing beyond that end goal. Secular Education is a route to reach THAT goal. When Marwaris suck billions of Muslim Money., it cuts my heart., because i know that the same Marwari FINANCES pogroms against Indian Muslims ! It means, in effect, that i am financing my own killing !
I believe in peaceful INTROSPECTION.. inward looking strategy.. and MUSLIM SWADESHI. People in Dubai are running Restaurants/Hotels., and they send Rs. 1 crore to Shivsena (on a daily basis). I am not comfortable with THAT., and i do not give a damn., if i am criticised/abused. It really doesnt matter.
Why have things come to this stage ? This ILLNESS (outsourcing of economic / worldly matters) must be addressed to. ISLAM is beyond Rituals.
IT IS LIVING LIFE. No need to read Law. It is implementation of LAW that i am concerned about.. not the dead letter.
Not the letter – but the spirit !
For the letter killeth – but the spirit giveth life !!
- Corinthians
Drone
A very effective form of economic swadeshi is achieved by some folks in the US. They are true patriots. They don’t visit stores nor patronize restaurants owned by Indians or Pakistanis or Hindus or Muslims – depending upon who they are. Comparing price, selection, availability and quality of goods across stores and shops that do not belong to members of their own communities is not for them.
A generalization of this vision for a global partition of economy between Muslims and non-Muslims is the need of the hour. For its symbol, may I suggest a Muslim charakha with inspirational calligraphy? On second thoughts, that may be too Marwari. How about Waliullah’s beautiful lota?
Mohan
I don’t think you fully grasp the utter misery, pain, and state of continuous helpless deprivation people like Drone live in.
Just because you as a non-Muslim think he has full rights and opportunities and just because he is good enough to not curse you at your face when you may meet him in social interactions or is unable to migrate to Pakistan, it does not mean that he and his economy do not deserve the protection that a system of jazia will offer him.
Jazia, Swadeshi, and economic separation – these are the pathways to attaining all that a rightly-guided man needs.
@KC
My question to AKB was the same would they like if jizya is imposed on muslims in non muslims land?
Lot of people in India & in other respective countries would be happy to reduce minorities to mere residents and not equal citizens.But why not if peace can be achieved.
@Dronacharya
I really did not understand. More and more, it is beginning to dawn on me that there may be, in fact, precious little to understand. If ever I can figure out what you are trying to say, I will respond. Until then, forgive the baffled silence
Kaalchakra,
Who ensures protection even after Jizya is paid by minorites ?
Goverment at centre, military, sunnis, shias or any other group?
Will they – people from minority group – be carrying placards claiming that they have paid Jizya so they should not be harmed
or should they always keep tax return statements with them which will
show that they have paid Jizya. Or maybe government will put notices
outside their houses that people living in these houses are not to be
harmed as they have paid their Jizya.
Assuming Muslims are facing same problems/discrimination in India as
minorites are facing in Pakistan than shouldn’t all the above apply
in India also?
to vajra
Jinnah claimed that islam teaches democracy and secularism since 1300 years. So what is your take on jiziya in the light of the most intelligent lawyer and human being who lived in the indian subcontinent (namely Jinnah!) saying islam taught democracy and secularism 1300 years ago?
—
to rhr and ylh
Jinnah saying “you are free to go your temples …” was just a ploy by him to save his face. “Chuhaa maaraa khaayaa, aur billi haaj karane chali.”
Why did he not say hindus are free to do missionary activity among muslims and teach the hindu-narrative of history to ALL children in Pakistan and publish islam-critical articles and books etc.?
JIZIYA- Vajra and ? Hayyer
===========================
I read some absolute nonsense posted by Vajra, as also perhaps Hayyer, and maybe kaal- cant remember.
Now educate yourself-John Keay’s magnum opus India- a history from the earliest civilisation to the boom of the 21st century- Harper Press-2000
“Jaziya was a variable tax, which for a poor artisan or farmer could amount to 25% of their income. Powerful Brahmins and Rajputs could be spared completely. Its purpose was clear- it was a reminder to the indigenous infidel of his perpetual inferior status in a Muslim kingdom. Release from this often back breaking tax was always hinted at- conversion to Islam and joining the victorious side !”
—————————-
sorry Vajra, as also hayyer and maybe kaal- any attempt to wish away the evil of jaziya does not wash. There were 2 famines recorded in Shah Jehan’s time- the govt machinery always looked after the muslim populace first, much like in modern Pakistan today (remember the flood and quake relief which was kept from the Christians and Hindus)…
@ Dr Mishra, Yorkshire
.
John-Keay’s lines quoted by you bear no commonsense.There is no sense in taxing the poor and exempting the filthy rich Rajputs and Brahmins. The Moguls were no fools to butcher the already destitute and spare the rich from a single of which they could extract the amount which might be paid by the 1000 poor. In fact, it were the rich Rajputs and Brahmins who screwed their own men , poor indeed, and not the Moguls. BTW do you want to say that the rich and strong Rajputs and Brahmins were exempted because they offered their daughters and sisters to the Moguls and enjoyed high posts in their darbars?? If so you should not cuss jizya but blame your own caste system led by the Rajputs and Brahmins.
@
NDelh
I don’t mind paying a jizya type tax if i lived in a non muslim country provided they said so in their constitution and law and exempted me from conscription ( as they forced Mohd Ali Clay etc) and assured me full safety and security just like other citizens. BTW Muslims in the world have been taxed with burdens worse than jizya, you forget the apartheid in South Africa as well as on-going apartheid in other parts of the world.
Were it not for Muslim brotherhood, all non-Muslim countries would have imposed taxes worse than jizya on Muslims. But with Billions of Muslims spead all over the world this is NOT possible. Let some foolish nation try it out and see the consequences!
@relevant :
Yes, Jinnah’s was a ploy. He never said in clear and unambiguous terms that Pakistan would be a secular state. However, he did say it will not be a theocratic state which it is not. By uttering ‘free to go to temples, etc etc” he was just trying to please different sects of inimical Muslim sects and ratifying his position on sectarian places of worship which among Muslim sects are called by various names. Example, the Sunni’s call them mosques, the shia’s Imambara, the Aga khani’s and Bohris Jamaat Khana, and perhaps Jinnah was referring to Mirzai places of worship as Temples!!
@relevant:your post at 9:40 pm
You asked what was my take on Jizya, in the light of Jinnah saying Islam taught democracy and secularism 1300 years ago. My take is nothing; the two subjects do not intersect. If Jinnah thought that the democracy and secularism taught by Islam had included Jizya, he had ample opportunity to introduce it before passing away.
The subject is as relevant as saying,”Gandhi talked of Ramrajya. In the rajya of Rama, Sita was asked to face trial by fire twice. What is your take on trial by ordeal, given Gandhi’s mention of Ramrajya?”
I see now that you chose your nick on the same principles on which I should have chosen to call myself Sundar.
@AKB
what has apparthied in south africa got to do with muslims only ?
And yes why it is foolish to impose Jizya on muslims since it is just another taxation system and has benifits?
@Mohan
The way out to implement is also provided by taliban. Back in 2001 they asked hindus in afghanistan to wear a yellow patch in front to identify themseleves ofcourse it was for their own safety.
I am all for this great islamic equality and should be adopted in every non islamic countries on muslims & vice versa.
Why limit to muslims and non muslims only, In the wake of sikh killings in US may be the govt their can tag hindus sya with a radio collar and again it is for their safety.
Imagine so many posters from US in this forum typing with their radio collars on
What say KC!!
to vajra
Neither you nor I know which “ample oportunities” the opportunist Jinnah had or not.
He certainly had ample opportunity to write a book of 120 pages in which he could have clarified all his earlier opportunisms and contradictions and – knowing that he had not long to live and that there was none of his calibre to carry on/out his vision (a man of 69 years age should have that discerning ability, ain’t it?) – should have made his peace with India and hindus (and his hindu ancestors who surely curse him for all his lies against hindus and glorifications of Mohammad and islam) in that very document. He should have written clear unambiguous words asking for forgivance for what he had done to the hindus and for his unjustfied glorifications of Mohammad and islam.
@relevant alias ahem
The point remains that Jizya is still not a feature of Pakistani legislation or taxation. What relevance does it have to the Pakistani views on Islam having addressed democracy and secularism 1,300 years ago?
What you have written has nothing to do with the point you had earlier raised; naturally, since you could not justify it, you abandoned it and shifted to your original and only point: that Muslims and Islam are bad and owe Hindus and Hinduism an apology.
You are free to say what you want to say subject to being cut off by the administrators, but your repeated attempts to find some factual peg on which to hang your personal prejudices is quite boring. Any outrageous theory can be entertained, if only it has some partial support, but for it to have no support at all, in spite of the best efforts of its proponents, tells its own tale.
to vajra
Jinnah knew that islam levies jiziya on non-muslims – whatever its “divine” justification.
And yet he said that islam taught us muslims democracy and secularism 1300 years ago. He lied. That was my point.
I did not abandon it.
I have constantly maintained that islam is inherently and unreformably fascistic and muslims are its victims and tools and agents.
“Bad or good” are not my words or categories. Don’t simplify my statements to a low level of debate.
My theory is not outrageous, since muslims are enthusiastically proving this to be true everyday.
What is outrageous is your collective attempt to ignore this fact and truth.
THE JEZYA BULL : I will tackle this now, by its horns. Muslim Society (by consensus) dropped the Jezya.. centuries ago ! Do you want Muslims to revive it now… to support your failing argument ?
Hindus are making billions in Muslim lands. They own businesses in Dubai. Are you aware, that everyday., Rs. 1 crore. is sent to Shiv-Sena from Dubai ! That is the Daily Contribution from Dubai alone. Hindus are a very evolved people. They say “Salam-alaikum” to make money ! Unfortunately the Muslim is innocent and naive… and doesnt say “Namaste” to succeed ! He will remain that way.. because he has made a covenant with another “power”.. to remain true to his faith… and not compromise for 30 pieces of silver. For a Hindu, there is no such compulsion at all.
MONEY is everything ! Success at any cost. Control the ECONOMY (even if you have to lose political power). Money is God. LUXMIE… and the whole world is a Luxmie Mansion !
So you see the Hindu Bania/Marwari.. controlling the Economy… irrespective of who is in power. Kings with Muslim Names.. 7 centuries.. Britishers.. 2 centuries.. They CONTROL the economy.
The Muslim is naive and innocent. He is bothered about beef/mutton/chicken/cartoons/novels/home made video-clips ! He comes out to protest against S. Rushdie and Cartoons and Video Clips… but he doesnt take to Math and Science.. with the same PASSION with which he loves the Seal of the Prophets (PBUH). So while he is well grounded in FAITH., he is losing “The World”… matters of the world i.e.
Kaho dayr-o-haram waalo – Yeh tum ney kya fasoon phoonkaa ?
Khudaa kay ghar pey kya guzree – Sanamm`khaaney pey kyaa guzree ??
- Jagannath Azad.
The elite of what is now Pak was HIndu. After partition they came to India. The Sindhis are rocking in India. Top builders. The Hindu Punjabis rocking thru-out India. Delhi, a muslim city… became a Punjabi city.
No matter how well intended, no matter how great, Yet., Mr. Jinnah made a great and historic mistake…
But what to do now ? Muslim compact is broken into 3 pieces. Zone A (Pak), Zone B (India) Zone C (BD). They can never be one now (nor were they earlier.. it was a bluff.. people were more bothered about food.. education.. jobs.. health care).. as Khwaja Ahmed Abbas rightly said in his short story “HAKKU”.. Who is a real muslim.. who represents an Indian Muslim ? and Abbas was absolutely right in his assessment..
Among the 3 bits… Indian Muslims have the BRIGHTEST chance of success. By default their strength has been broken… to a level.. where they are decent in number… but… cannot influence polity. We dropped Persian/Urdu in 1901… in 2012., we must drop all the regional languages/Urdu/Persian/Arabic.. (we know only 7 lines of Fatiha.. and 4 one-line surahs anyways).. and take to English as our language of communication. For 2nd languge.. we may learn French or Chinese !
So what if we are poor.. let us uplift ourselves mentally. I dont mind if a Muslim boy is a Rickshaw-walla… but he must be a M.A. Rickshaw-walla.
THAT will herald change.. in the decades to come. There is no quick fix… These are civilisational sweeps….
@relevant
Jinnah knew that Islam levies Jizya on non-Muslims – whatever its “divine” justification.
And yet he said that Islam taught us democracy and secularism 1300 years ago.
He lied…..
Where did he lie? And wher did he contradict himself?
Obviously he knew about Jizya and the applications of Jizya. Just as obviously, he never had an intention to introduce it and never referred to it. Why should he have? It is quite clear from the proceedings of the last few years of the freedom struggle that the Muslim League was seeking an arrangement whereby India would consist of three separately administered segments, under a generally constitutional secular administration.
Why should Jinnah have denied something that was never in his mind, and that only find space in your feverish looking for sticks with which to beat his legacy?
to vajra
You seem to know what Jinnah’s legacy is. Since he said contradictory things – he had his meetings with mullahs and pacified them with words which are now having their effects in Pakistan – his legacy is ruined.
Furthermore how could he as a democrat have overlooked that he was a loner in ML. How could he have overlooked that there was no one to carry on his “legacy” after him?
In any case he gave bad examples/precedents in the Kashmir question and in the question of genocide on hindus.
I don’t have to look feverishly for any sticks to beat his “legacy”. The pakistanis have already done it – with his own words, dress changes, namaz attendances etc. Wasn’t he against his daughter marrying outside of the “glorious religion”. And so on.
This Jinnah is wasting too much space on the PTH.
FRANKLY SPEAKING: All discussions pertaining to Jinnah, Gandhi, Bose, Vivekananda, Panjab, Bangal, Kolkatta’s mayors etc. aren’t going to help a twit solve the problem of TODAY’S Pakistan. And this problem is the denial of islam’s inherent fascism and lies. And Jinnah helps in this denial, in the perpetuation of many of these lies.
When will you fellows come to the year 2012-2013?
You have to understand, Kaalchakra’s modus operandi is to show the absurdity of Islamic beliefs by agreeing with them.
to vajra
This shows why Nehru etc. did not trust Jinnah. He was a loner in the ML. His “good” promises had no reliable value and his demands were obviously made with later islamic hegemony in the mind of those who had made him jump on the ML bandwagon and given him the top position. In fact he even made a tactic out of making demands which he KNEW the hindus cannot fulfill without putting themselves into big difficulties later.
A lawyer that he was – he knew how to lie without appearing to have lied, be outwardly respectful without being really respectful etc. In fact ML chose him to be their boss just for these characteristics. The other muslim leaders could not do it with that rafinesse.
to vajra
There is this quote from Groucho Marx ( I had quoted it earlier too)
“The most important thing in the world is to be honest. If you can pretend honesty then you have made it.”
Jinnah was of that type.
You know why Gandhi left the lawyer-profession and why he was so unsuccessful at it, whereas Jinnah made millions?
Kaalchakra’s modus Operandi will work only with humans. There’s been many a Bulle Shah’s it didn’t help. We can’t expect cancer to realize it is cancer. Gandhian philosophy is irrational.
The video begins with two tributes to Jinnah, one is from the Indian National Congress President Surat Chandra Bose.
But the Indian National Congress Presidents:
1947 – Acharya J.B. Kripalini
1948-49 – Dr Pattabhi Sitariamayya
1950 – Purushottam Das Tandon
So who was this Surat Chandra Bose?
Ah, they mean Sarat Chandra Bose.
@ NDelhi
Either you are too naive or grossest ignorant. Taxation in any form is taxation, be it jizya, income tax, sales tax, vat , aabiyana , ushr or chanda (bhatt or contribution Mirzai’s and Aga khani’s pay to their cult for their safety and security and promoting their mission) ….taxation is not only pecuniary, you can be taxed morally and spiritually as well. This was what apartheid did and was a thousand times worse and abhorable than jizya or the income you conceal from taxation.
There is NO sense in taxing the poor or the tramp….taxes are to be imposed on the rich and the rajputs and brahmins being so were made to pay ….in return for exemption from conscription and atrocities from other citizens both Hindus and Muslims!!
/
Well, if non muslims don’t pay jizya then the only option left for them would to pay ransom or convert. This is what we learn from crusades and other golden chapters of history.
The general muslim mood is to insult, slander, vilify and humiliate non-muslims by words and deeds. The amount of violence, hate and humiliation resulting from kuran and hadith against the non-muslims far exceeds what any film or satyre can produce.
What needs to be banned then?
@AKB
I was actually happy to see that next thing that came to your mind once you heard Jizya is apartheid. Equally abhorable and in case of apartheid white race accepted and condemned it but in case of Jizya muslims like you are finding reasons to justify it . Can you see the differnce between saccha musalman & others.
The day you guys identify and accept the ills of islam matter ends and world becomes a better place