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Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » “Innocence of Muslims” and Muslims….

“Innocence of Muslims” and Muslims….

Raza Habib Raja

“One of the “best”ways to protest against a movie which portrays your faith as crazy, fascist and violent is to go and protest in a way that is crazy, fascist and violent !”

The above is a Facebook status of a friend (may be an excerpt from an article) which accurately describes what right now we are witnessing all across the Muslim world. How an obscure and crude movie on YouTube ( which by no stretch of imagination is state sanctioned or censored in the conventional sense) can spark such violent protests is something which really needs to be pondered upon.

Frankly I will not defend the movie as I have seen the thirteen minute trailer. I fully agree that it is crude and frankly aims at humiliating Muslims. But in no way, does it lead to any justification of the violence which has erupted all across the Muslim world.
Whenever I want to refute the increasingly voiced and accepted opinion that “ Moderate Islam is a Mirage”, something like this happens which leaves me completely speechless.

It is not the protests, as it is natural to protest against what a community feels is offensive and inflammatory. It is the ugly nature of protests which is extremely worrisome. Muslims really need to ponder over the fact that their excessive reaction actually ends up leaving them virtually isolated. The world does not feel any sympathy for them and correctly interprets them as perpetuators of hate and bigotry. This behavior also has a spillover effect on virtually all issues which involves Muslims and creates a universal impression that perhaps everywhere, even where they are actually prosecuted, Muslims are the main culprits.

And by the way let us not forget that while Muslims continue to rage over Blasphemous cartoons, movies and images, their own record with respect to treatment of minorities is pathetic. What they need to learn that world will only sympathize with them if they themselves show the same kind of respect they expect of their faith.

And besides the ugly nature of protests, the Muslims also have this misplaced anger towards the Western governments. An obscure movie, made by someone who has even been convicted in a fraud, is in no way connected with US government or West in general. However, in this strange Muslim mindset ( which by the way is roughly similar all across the globe reaffirming that Islamic identity cuts across the world), everything is being deliberately planned to insult them.

Much deeper and frankly important issue is the confrontation between Western ideals of freedom of speech and Muslims’ extraordinary reverence of their religion. I have pointed out before also that one of the major reasons as to why Muslims are like that is the extraordinary reverence which is instilled in their minds right from the childhood. Even those who are moderate ( and they exist in majority) and for that matter those who don’t follow Islamic rituals, have a tendency to get riled up when anyone mocks Prophet Muhammad or Quran. Religion for Muslims is like race or ethnicity and in fact even more than that. This is something which the West needs to understand.

While it is perfectly right to be critical of radical Islam and also question inhuman laws, but mocking or insulting the Holy Prophet will be completely counterproductive. It is just like calling African Americans as “Niggers” and expecting them not to even notice! Yes I am fully admitting there is a huge issue with the way Islamic World is today and we need to address the issue but mocking won’t just do it. I am being extremely realistic and pragmatic here. It is how you deal with the problem that will make any difference.

Yes I agree that religion is not that sensitive matter for many in the modern world but in Muslim world it is. And through mocking and ridiculing, we only further alienate the Muslims and in the process lose any realistic chance of engaging them for reforms.

However, at the same time it becomes difficult to just bow down in front of violent pressure exerted by Muslims when Muslims themselves show little credibility in terms of how they treat minorities and respect their religious freedom. Moreover, since freedom of expression is often construed as a hard won right therefore making exceptions for Muslims and that too in the face of violence, does not appear to be the “right” choice.

We need to nevertheless agree on something with religion’s criticism in the media. For example just like race, religion’s criticism also needs to be pondered over. For example, perhaps we can broadly agree that criticism on religious laws and customs is acceptable while ridiculing its symbols is not. There has to be at least some consensus, of informal type, which should guide media in general.

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1,085 Responses to "“Innocence of Muslims” and Muslims…."

  1. Vajra India Safari iPad says:

    tr.v. boy·cott·ed, boy·cott·ing, boy·cotts
    To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.
    The act or an instance of boycotting.

    tr.v. ig·nored, ig·nor·ing, ig·nores
    To refuse to pay attention to; disregard;

  2. Fingolfin United States Google Chrome Windows says:


    well i only assumed you thought so posting all that you were about them. So do you or do you now believe them to be more intelligent than most?

  3. Fingolfin United States Google Chrome Windows says:


    You also have not been able to find much on social evolution linking genetics and particularly intelligence because as you say, i don’t think there is much.
    I have not found anything actually when it comes to a research paper or a thesis. Just something i have been thinking about.
    If there is anything i can suggest you take away from all this is that you think about it and keep an open mind towards it( I know you think this is really rich coming from me, I can be pretty stuck up but give it a thought nonetheless) because it is my personal belief that it will explain a lot especially in the context of India( where things have been so rigid for so long) but in general as well.

  4. Bade Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    I mentioned that article only for its methodology. It might as well have argued for the intelligence of Chimps. As for the question of IQ of the Jews, I have no thoughts either way. There have been strong arguments for both sides.
    “and keep an open mind towards it”
    I did and that is why I scoured the articles, gave you examples of real data.

  5. Bade Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    “That leaves only the bloody Punjabis to blame. Is there no one on PTH to proclaim their innocence?”
    For some weird reason, my posts do not appear on the article where it should be posted so I am writing it here. It’s not my argument about blaming Punjabis, Sindhis, Biharis, Oriyas, etc. Some months ago, I had a discussion with Mythbuster regarding this issue and he brought in the (Hindu and Sikh) Punjabi perspective. There was much to learn from his perspective. My broad theme has been to understand it on a holistic scale. It’s rare in history that events happen on such a sudden note without any relevance to past whatsoever. That is why I have criticized people who have assigned Gandhi as a sole repository of blame when it comes to introducing religion in politics. It just doesn’t square up with facts, nor with the prevailing conditions, and, above all, not with the flow of history as well. It was a time of nascent nationalism all over the world. Muslim nationalism didn’t just happen in India. It was all over the world. Likewise, it’s a lazy scholarship to claim that Muslims from the heartland went and sowed the seeds of TNT everywhere. TNT came from Punjab. The first conference of AIML was held in Dhaka. Does that prove anything? Did Gandhi or the Up_ites start the Mooplah revolution? I firmly believe that if Iqbal didn’t come up with that nutty idea, someone else would have. What Gandhi’s biggest blunder was not to recognize this seismic change in events. His excessive espousal of anti-modernism was ultimately a (ineffectual) tool to counter this new train of thoughts. As Dr. Ambedkar has wonderfully argued, when that scepter of Muslim nationalism had already reared its head, it was prudent to recognize it and deal with as soon as possible rather than rely on the Hindu-Muslim tradition of unity and coexistence as a means to counter this new idea. Gandhi’s arguments were for the past than for the future (an argument repeatedly hammered home by AIML) and it was a losing argument. You must remember that even among Muslims, there were two distinct streams of thought, at least in the heartland: the traditionalists and the Aligarh types. The Aligarh type were not looked with favor in the backwaters. In fact, a lot of Muslims regarded them as a new source of fasaad.
    There is the question of the behavior of UP Muslim elites. I don’t think there is anything distinctive about their actions–they behaved like elites. Their first priority was the maintenance of the status quo. In fact, it was in their self-interest to make sure that Punjab and other Muslim dominated regions stayed in the Union. After all, they had used that threat on the border to secure their own positions. Starting with the grassroots movements initiated by Gandhi, their positions had started to become untenable in the mid 20s to 30s. That made them fall for AIML to play the communal card and hang on to their positions. Likewise, in Punjab, no matter what the outer pronouncements of Sikander Hayat Khan may have been, the Unionist Party was a party of the elites. In that sense, the Muslim elite believed no different from others. It’s not a credible argument to claim that they were fine as a member of the ruling class for 800 odd years and developed cold feet when it came to sharing the spoils with the plebeians. The Hindu upper caste behaved the same way when it came to job reservation. Of course, depending on how you see it, it could be seen as a federal vs center argument as well. As things stood, it was difficult to be a federalist without being communal and this is one of those grey areas which we have to recognize.

  6. Fingolfin United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    the issue with your articles is that they are only a point of view and nothing solid to argue otherwise. Your data also never took into account that the population of Brahmins in India is minuscule.
    A couple of years back, the Indian test team had 9 Brahmins in it( the One day team a little lesser but still overwhelmingly Brahmin). This has been consistently the case for many decades now. Should we then presume that they are better at the game than everyone else?! Of course not! Data can be misleading and should be treated with care. Even though there is no bias in selecting cricketers, no one can conclude that the Brahmins are better at cricket. There is no theory behind it.
    Your IIT results were not keeping in mind the fact that the populations are so vastly different. The articles were just vague write ups about the Jews and no solid theory to undo mine. These are the only problems i have with what you provided since otherwise i found them to be very informative.

  7. Bade Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    The claim about IIT was made my you, not by me. I merely debunked your claim. You are arguing a scientific case as if it were an ideological argument. You are just going around in circles. You can discount all statistics and counter arguments but remember without a firm backing of data and scientific principles, your “belief” is just that, a belief. As free men, we are entitled to that. I don’t begrudge you.
    As for your data about Brahmins in cricket, I once again thank you for that insight. I never knew that and you are right! There were a lot of them in the team. Curiously, the team has started to perform better after there has been a better representation. Also, now I don’t regret not having grown up in metropolis like Bangalore and Delhi and Calcutta.

  8. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:


    your comments about guru nanak are false and hold no water against the facts. Nanak spent much of his time studying Islam and other religions. Finally he fantacised his own version of religion and was bold enough to declare it openly. He was a great man in this doing and very unlike Murja Ghulla who acted like a wolf in sheep’s garb. I respect him for his integrity but it is a fact that his new religion is a mixture of
    ashloks from here and there…including Muslims. If he hated Muslims he wouln’t have requested Mian Meer to lay the foundation stone of the Golden Temple. It were only the later Guru’s who spoiled the image of Sikhism by practically axing Islam. Their worse contention was that why do Muslims who claim to believe in One Allah announce the name of Prophet Muhammad in their call for prayers (azaan)??
    Thank goodness, Mirjza Ghulla was not born during his time or the times of his later gurus or they would have taken strong notice of his false claim and sent him to hell!!
    In any case, Nanak was great, his chelaa’s gurus were not.

  9. Tilsim United Kingdom Safari Mac OS says:

    “We are masters of the unsaid words, but slaves of those we let slip out”

    “Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.”

    “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.”

    - Winston Churchill

  10. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:


    Too bad that you take the words of the worst enemy of Hindustan who ordered its break up. It would be appreciated if you quoted from the teachings of Murja Ghulla as I am his ‘fan’ and want to know what arguments did he pose to Muslims mullahs and Xtian missionaries in his defence….

    Churchil may be your favorite but mine may be Hitler, Hitler was a great nationalist who lost despite his nation stood by his side!!

  11. Maggu India Safari iPad says:

    AKB, I can see why you are a fan of Mirza.. Mirza was a great personality who filled the gaps in Islamic theology and also blew apart the claim of finality of prophethood as a selfish falsehood. He did awaken the common Muslim who was in darkness to the light of the new prophet. Great service to mankind,I think. I salute you since you believe in the reformed Islam of the Mirza and follow the quadiani faith.

  12. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    @ Maggu


    You have a negative sense of understanding as you took my condemnation of a traitor to Islam as someone else. I can find gaps in you through your writing and say you are not what you are,,,,,
    Picking at scripture is easy….moreso when you are paid by your colonila British masters. What the hell has Murja Ghulla attained by his novation?? Nothing but eternal condemnation. Why should anyone, be it a Muslim, a Hindu or a Xtian trust him even as a saint?? He had certainly had no good qualities to be proud about Even there is a split between the followers of Murja Ghulla, a group call him a frofet whereas the other malign him for claiming so. Since there is NO agreement on the ‘status” of Murja Ghulla at home there is No sense in attributing any prophetic or otherwise label to him. He was simply a slave of the British, a traitor of United India and an enemy not only of Muslim but the Hindus and Christians as well because he denounce Muhammad, Jrishan, Messiah, Jesus and all!! Were he right his hypotheetical claims would have not found international rejection.

    for more info about your favorite Mirjai’s go to

    and don’t try your antics with me, I am very bad with bad people!!

  13. Maggu India Safari iPad says:

    AKB, I already wet my pants…. What do you do to bad people? But why do you deny that you are Ahmedi? Just because you belong to the Ahmedi sect does not harm you, it’s ok.

  14. Satyamukhi United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    AKB like most Pakistanis is Quaidiani believing in Muhammad Ali Jinnah and not Quadiani of Mirza. Give credit to AKB, at least he knows that Islam is Dogma non Gratis and Muhammad Persona non Gratis in Indian affairs.LIke many other Paki Islamic people, He is more honest that Mleccacharya or Ravizudeen trying to be Indian.

  15. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    do chootia nazar aaye
    ik maggu dooja satyaNas
    areeb in ke na jaana
    in se aati he gand baas!!

  16. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    irshaad.. irshaad.
    Bolo Mirza Quadian wale keeeeee JAI!!

  17. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    AKB, bolo naaa bhai… zooor say bolo.. JAI!!

  18. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    tum bolo
    phir kholo
    aagay he khandaala!!

  19. RajTOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex Minor,
    coming back to YHWH, Abraham’s God’s equivalence with Shiva.
    Here is some analysis from a Jew, a Rabbi

  20. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:


    learn to post hyperlink…..boy!

  21. RajTOO Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Arab Ki Bund,
    in order to avoid my posts being stopped for moderation of links, which BTW never really takes place, I encode the links.
    I thought even an idiot like you would understand, but Paki brain is really a mirage!

  22. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    coming back to YHWH, Abraham’s God’s equivalence with Shiva

    SHIVA…..choree ka maal hai egypt se aya hai.made in india nahee hai.

  23. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:


    I don’t want you to be blocked by mods as you are a good boy who loves heavy bashing!! RajTOO kee bund-ay maadar-um!!!

  24. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    ”’Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:
    October 8, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    irshaad.. irshaad.”’

    I can see how deeply you love Irshad..!here it is
    Enjoy the heat!

  25. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Roman Urdu اردو العربية
    Mansokhi, Insidad, Khatma منسوخی٬ انسداد٬ خاتمہ الإلغاء :: الإبطال :: القضاء على
    خاتم ٬ مختتم ٬ ختم کرنے والا طرف
    Khatma, Akhtamam خاتمہ٬ اختتام الإنتهاء
    مرصع ساز ٬ خاتم کار ٬ پچی کار المبطّن
    Khatma Taqreer خاتمہ تقریر الخطبة المنمّقة
    Khatma, Imtanae خاتمہ٬ امتناع الإخماد
    Khatma Karna خاتمہ کرنا إجتثّ

  26. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    WITH a hat-tip to Harper’s Magazine, which invented this kind of index, here are some enlightening numbers regarding the fighting in Gaza, as of 8.00am GMT on November 19th.

    Number of Israelis killed by fire from Gaza between January 1st 2012 and November 11th 2012: 1
    (Source: Wikipedia)

    Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire during the same period: 78
    (Source: United Nations)

    Number of Israelis killed by fire from Gaza, November 13th-19th 2012: 3
    (Source: press reports)

    Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire, November 13th-19th: 95
    (Source: IDF)

    Number of those killed in Gaza under 15 years of age: 19

    Total number of Israelis killed by rocket, mortar or anti-tank fire from Gaza since 2006: 47
    (Source: Wikipedia. This is disputed; another source says 26)

    Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire from April 1st 2006 to July 21st 2012: 2,879
    (Source: United Nations)

    Number of Egyptian schoolchildren killed when a train hit their bus on November 17th 2012: 53
    (Source: press reports)

    Number of people killed in traffic accidents in Israel in 2011: 384
    (Source: Wikipedia)

    Number of Syrians killed in fighting between November 13th-19th 2012: 646
    (Source: Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR)

    Estimated deaths in Syria since beginning of unrest in March 2011: 40,000
    (Source: SOHR)

    Estimated deaths from all Israeli-Arab wars between 1945 and 1995: 92,000
    (Source: Wikipedia)

    Number of targets in Gaza struck by Israel, November 13th-19th: 1,350
    (Source: IDF)

    Number of projectiles fired at Israel from Gaza from November 13th-19th, 2012: 848
    (Source: IDF)

    Number that did not fall in “open areas”: 35
    (Source: IDF)

    Number intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome defence system: 302
    (Source: IDF)

    Percentage of projectiles targeted by Iron Dome shot down, as claimed by Israeli military: 80-85%
    (Source: IDF)

    Reported cost in dollars of one interceptor missile fired by Iron Dome: 62,000
    (Source: Ha’aretz)

    Estimated cost in dollars of one short-range Qassam missile built in Gaza workshop: 800
    (Source: News reports)

    Cost in dollars of one Iron Dome battery; Israel has deployed five and plans 13 in total: 50m
    (Source: AFP)

    Number of kilos explosive equivalent in payload of Iranian-supplied Fajr-5 longer-range rocket deployed by Hamas: 90 (200lb)
    (Source: Wikipedia)

    Number of kilos explosive equivalent of Israel Military Industry’s MPR-500 advanced-penetration precision-guided bomb: 900 (2,000lb)

    Area in square kilometres of Gaza: 365 (141 square miles)

    Area in square kilometres of Israel: 20,700 (7,992 square miles)

    Population of Gaza: 1.7m

    Number of Israelis within range of Fajr-5 missiles: 3.5m
    (Source: IDF)

    Jewish population of Israel/ under Israeli jurisdiction (ie including West Bank settlements): 5.9m

    Non-Jewish population under Israeli jurisdiction (ie including Gaza and West Bank): 6.1m

    Per capita GDP of Israel in 2011, in dollars: 31,000
    (Source: Wikipedia)

    Per Capita GDP of Gaza in 2011, in dollars: 1,483

    Verse of Exodus containing the phrase “Pillar of Cloud”, the official codename for Israel’s current Gaza operation: 13:21

    Verse of the Koran containing the phrase “Stones of Clay”, Hamas’s codename for its current operations: 105:4

    Number of days before Israeli general election: 64

  27. All are not but most of them Innocent

  28. AKB Pakistan Opera Windows says:

    تصميم المواقع

    Wiping out the whole population of a town for the sake of catching or killing one killer is neither fair nor justifies the act.

  29. akb Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    this is how minorities enjoy freedom in Muslim countries..

    Guru Nanak Darbar – In Dubai

    Visitors say that it is even more beautiful than the Golden Temple of Amritsar.
    The only Gurdwara of its kind in the modern world, some are even comparing Kandhari to erstwhile kings,
    who made such iconic monuments of importance during their rule. A beautiful fact in religious harmony,
    when he brings home historic significance that the foundation stone of the Golden Temple was laid by Muslim Saint Hazrat Mian Mir and land donated now by Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum, the ruler of Dubai.
    Large part of the 65 million dirham spent on making it has been spared by Kandhari himself.
    Heavenly spirituality meets with earthly opulence.
    A spectacular combine made possible by the will of God, through his chosen man, Surinder Singh Kandhari.
    From 24 carat gold canopies to exclusive Italian marble, the temple of worship is a masterpiece in architecture,
    aesthetics & grandeur, all in the name of God.
    The serenity as you enter is just the same as one would find in any other place of worship.
    But behind the faith lies six years of toil and treasure spending in what stands as an icon of Sikhism in the Middle East.
    Situated in Jebel Ali, a prominent location, measuring 100, 000 sq. ft. spread across four levels,
    it is visited by hundreds of devotees from across the globe.
    The building contractor has guaranteed the structure for 100 years. It has high sped silent lifts.
    The kitchen is made & manned to five star standards.
    “I told the ruler that one can’t surpass the Golden Temple but what we will have is the most modern Gurdwara in the world” said Kandhari, chairman of the Al Dobowi Group, and one of the most prominent NRI’s in the Middle East.
    The community box collections are already very high which pleases the management as
    they plan to spend it all in binding the Indian – Pakistan community closer.
    The next steps unveil opening of hospitals & schools for public good, as well as teaching native languages and religious strictures.


    Pictures are brilliant but can’t be posted due to no provision here…
    however, those can be googled and enjoyed seeing!!

  30. Maggu India Google Chrome  GT-N7100 Build/JZO54K) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/30.0.1599.92 Mobile Safari/537.36 says:

    Some idiot has been posting in my name.
    Whoever it is should have the courage and the conviction to use their own

  31. Mohan United Arab Emirates Google Chrome Windows says:

    ” Guru Nanak Darbar – In Dubai
    Visitors say that it is even more beautiful than the Golden Temple of Amritsar.”
    I have seen both and I can confidently say that Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar is much more beautiful then the Gurdwara in Dubai which is also very good.

  32. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome  GT-N8013 Build/JZO54K) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/30.0.1599.92 Safari/537.36 says:

    Reason, with good reason . In his position, I would do the same. Rex never abuses while Tajender mostly does not (except non-Muslim women). Both work constantly to create Islamic reality. You should study how my friend tajends operates. He carries forward the great intellectual and moral legacy of fourteen hundred years. He presents ideas . He offers facts. You simply drop upon us the same denunciation of Islam in every post.

    If You mon Muslims are really serious about dialog with your Muslim friends and neighbors, accept Tajender as your Master for a few months. Learn how Islamic facts are presented. Learn how Islamic argument are advanced. After all what is the point of conversing if you talk only to yourselves?

  33. akb Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Maggu

    I too noted that some buster was posting under my name as well.
    Let’s kick their ass!

  34. akb Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Mohan

    so you agreed both gurudawara’s are elegant….one in Hindu-Sikh land the other in a Muslim empire. Good!!

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