Pak Tea House » Uncategorized » Dialogue with Yasser Latif Hamdani
Dialogue with Yasser Latif Hamdani
From the Analyst World
What is your idea of Pakistan as lay man? And as a Member of the Bar and a Law Man?
YLH : I have tried but I cannot distinguish between my idea of Pakistan as a layman and as a member of the bar. As I understand it the idea of Pakistan arose out and as a result of the following:
- The inability of British Indians to evolve a common nationality and this itself has three factors: a. The insecurity of Muslims – having taken to modern education and British rule much later than the Hindu Majority (a gap of 80 years almost b/w Ram Mohan Roy and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan) b. The unwillingness of the Hindu majority to meet the Muslims half way and allay their fears and c. the role of the British rulers i.e. making Hindu-Muslim settlement a sine qua non and a condition precedent for responsible government in British India.
- The introduction of separate electorates for Muslims in 1909 (which was – it must be emphasized- opposed by Jinnah) which created a fissiparous tendency.
- Congress Party’s insistence that it spoke for all India and not just those Indians who supported it.
- Gandhi’s support for the Khilafat Movement which introduced a permanent religious angle (of the Mullahs) and made religious identities non-negotiable destroying the top down Indian nationalist unity constructed painfully through the Lucknow Pact of 1916.
- Congress’ unwillingness to accept the Delhi Muslim proposals in 1928-1929 which would have undone the separate electorates. Jinnah had convinced almost all of the Muslim opinion makers to endorse joint electorates in return for reserved representation and constitutional reforms in Sindh and NWFP (KP).
- The Punjab Muslim thesis at the roundtable conference i.e. represented by the British backed Fazli Hussain and the Unionist Muslims who wanted a watered down Indian federation as opposed to Jinnah’s faction of the Muslim League which wanted a workable federation and Congress which wanted a strong central government.
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Read more here from the Analyst World Mumbai.
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Tilsim,
I wrote a long post yesterday and it didn’t get posted. I have no idea why but your guess is as good as mine.
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“You are pretending that discrimination against Muslims does not exist in India. I find that wholly untenable. It exists against minorities in pak and their plight is not good and it is the same in India. You are pretending that discrimination against Muslims does not exist in India. I find that wholly untenable. It exists against minorities in pak and their plight is not good and it is the same in India. ”
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It always amazes me when reasonable, well-informed people like you make such a parity, just like Muslims periodically say when it comes to blasphemy: that it is the same as Holocaust. Few people deny that the Muslims are not discriminated against in India but to conflate it to the situation in Pakistan is not only only bizarre but not conducive to a healthy debate. There is no, and I repeat, absolutely no comparison between the plight of minorities in India and Pakistan. Sachar Committee has rightly pointed out that glaring condition of Muslims, in general. But that is true for Muslims all over the world, even in Islamic countries, where they fare even worse.
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Likewise, to put Jinnah and Nehru and Ambedkar in the same bracket, as far as secular practice is concerned is just plain ridiculous. Jinnah may have been a gold standard for secularism in Pakistan, but his politics cannot be termed as secular by any stretch of imagination. He may have been secular in his private life; this is certain but his public utterances were of the worst sectarian kind. Politicians at his level are rarely extreme in their views but that is not our concern. Even Modi’s most strident critics don’t doubt his personal probity. Some even claim that privately, he is quite catholic in his outlook. That cannot preclude the way he practices politics. Jinnah’s speeches are no different from Modi’s. His only excuse is that he was arguing for a minority so some amount of leeway is acceptable. Even there, he didn’t merely, in the manner of Black political leaders, howsoever flawed the comparison may be, argue for a more equitable participation of Muslims in the Center. He emphasized and even rabidly peddled the notion that there was a civilizational different between Hindus and Muslims. Can you, therefore, blame Pakistanis for having such opinion about Hindus? To call him as a model of secular politics is a travesty that is only possible in the wonderland of Pakistan.
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Coming back to this stuff about how the Muslims flocked to the banner of AIML after suffering mistreatment at the hands of the Hindu Congress leaders. This is just plain untrue and a retroactive argument driven by a guilt about AIML’s actions. Your own Jalal has mentioned that AIML gained ground in the Central Provinces and UP among the landed Muslim gentry due to the rising awareness among the peasantry in the wake of Congress’ mass movement. So why this blatantly false narrative?
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As for the map drawn by Menon, the reference that you gave us says that it was alleged to be done in Jan 1947. So why such brouhaha?
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Syed,
It’s my humble request not to argue about historical events in the manner of arguing about scriptures. You will get nowhere and only end up embarrassing yourself.
DRPNACHARYA
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Please give your opinion on WHY PARTITON IS NOT A GOOD THING
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Today Hindus believe that Partiton was the BEST thing
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MORE points on WHY PARTITION WAS THE BEST OPTION
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Had the British left undivided India in 1947, the Muslim League would have continued its struggle for separate nationhood.
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Direct Action Day in 1946 was a Muslim orgy of violence aimed to demonstrate that Muslims would not sit by idly and acceptance Hindu dominance.
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That VIOLENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN REPEATED A THOUSANDFOLD after the British left. With each new riot, communalism would have deepened, and inevitably overthrown secular forces.
Pankaj.. i dont wish to break your heart.. but your presumption is wrong. There is NO guarantee which way the cookie would have crumbled. There was violence. Had India remained UNITED.. there would have been violence.. but I would put it in the realm of 25% of the mayhem that happenned.
People were living.. where they were. The main HOT SPOT was PUNJAB. Sikh-Muslim reproachment would have been possible w/Jinnah and Tara Singh. Infact TARA, worshipped JINNAH !
The Gujaratis are smart people. Patel (and his Junior Gandhi.. not in terms of age.. but status.. real power) and Jinnah and Gandhi.. they could have pulled on.
Though I have gr8 respect for Nehru.. i must say this.. Nehruvian AMBITION.. proved to be an obstacle. I dont wish to insuniate further.. but Pt. Nehru.. U.P. the hot-bed of hatred.. pulled the whole thing down. Left to themselves, the Gujaratis would have pulled off.
25% was of course guaranteed.. for 28.5 They wanted 33.3%. A measly 5% differential. It was manage-able nonsense. Khair.
United India would not have plunged into a civil war ! Infact it would have strengthened the secular space.. and choked the communal elements on both sides (RSS/Mullah). WIth partition.. the secular space is dead (or dying). Both went Right-wing.. and moderation.. balance.. secular space.. went to dogs.
Dont mention articles… Ive read them most (if not all). This was avoidable nonsense. I would put a substantial blame on Nehru… and Gandhi… as usual… backed off JUST AT THE RIGHT MOMENT.
THE OLD HYPOCRITE.. as Vijaye Raje beautifully put it. He said “A” and then when it came to the crux always acted “Z”. In the interim he fooled the nation with his dramas.. nude dancing (it was Vedic Break-dance).. music.. and singing “SAKKA REY SAKKA.. NAKKA REY NAKKA”.
DRONACHARYA
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Please give your opinion on WHY PARTITON IS NOT A GOOD THING
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Today Hindus believe that Partiton was the BEST thing
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MORE points on WHY PARTITION WAS THE BEST OPTION
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But suppose India had not been partitioned. Suppose this had led to a thousand Direct Action Days and civil war. In that blood-soaked mess, would Nehru or anybody else have been able to keep India together? Not a chance. India’s Partition avoided civil war, and so provided the space for nation-building.
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Civil war in India would have created multiple partitions, as in Yugoslavia. Instead of two states, India and Pakistan, civil war would have created maybe a dozen countries, with multiple disputes and bitter civil war memories.
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Unity in India was created after 1947 by the statesmanship of Nehru and his colleagues. Many British critics sneered that an independent India would disintegrate. Nehru proved them wrong
partition of india.. led to Hindutva becoming centre-stage in 65 yrs ! What was a fringe element becomes mainstream after 65 yrs. Today.. it is SAVARKAR who is the father of the indian hindu heart. Accept the reality and the truth. why the pretension ?
subsequently, hinduTVA will destroy eclectic HInduism. But it will take time. 100-200 yrs.
In similar spirit.. Islam was hijacked by the Mullah.. and it is gali-galouj mara-maari in Pakistan.
RSS/MULLAH inherited INDIA-PAK.
This article is a MUST READ
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Independence Day: Why Partition was a good thing for India
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http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-08-15/news/33216643_1_hindus-partition-muslim-league
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This article PROVES HOW it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR
CONGRESS AND MUSLIM LEAGUE to Work together
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The British had a FORMED an INTERIM govt in 1946
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But the Muslim League in that Cabinet HAD
ONLY a NUISANCE VALUE ie DESTRUCTIVE AND OBSTRUCTIVE ROLE
NOW WHAT ? Ab kya karna hai ! Waste another 65 yrs on nostalgia – barbs – scoring brownie points ? OR.. putting the shoulder to the wheel and changing reality.
YEH HAI CHOICE ! Look at Lake Lucerne… and look at what the Hindu has done to Ganga… and what the Muslim has done to Raavie. Idiots.. couldnt maintain what they have.. abusive language.. killings.. barbs.. taunts.. aur bas.
RESEARCH.. SCIENCE KAA NAAM LO.. TO GAALI-GALOUJ.
Why do we waste time fighting the wars of our ancestors? Be they verbal or physical or armed?
What is the situation in Pakistan TODAY? Is it due to islam? Can we hope to get honest answers in public? Is islam uncriticizable (which would directly mean that it is a fascist-totalitarian ideology)? Why is there no islam-criticizing literature being published in Pakistan? That too proves the fascist nature of islam. When islam (and kuran, Mohammad etc.) remains uncriticized then it will become only more fascistic in future.
Any discussion with the intention of protecting the feeling among muslims that they or Jinnah did no wrong and that muslims are entitled to a life without any criticism of islam/kuran and that muslims are innocent victims only of the evil deeds and conspiracies of the non-muslims – such a discussion will only strengthen fascism among muslims.
The events before 1948 cannot be changed. May be Jinnah, Gandhi, Patel, Savarkar etc. are fighting/discussing it out in heaven or hell.
It is obvious that muslims and hindus had and have two different narratives of history. That should rest the matter.
jews are our brother not yours.”
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I am very happy for your new found love for Jews.THERE IS NO NEED OF LOVE.WE ARE COUSIN.…. Tell Ahmedinijad too please that Israel is a brother country and they not try to wipe it off the map……25000 jews are still living in iran.inspite of offer of huge bribe and temptation they did not left their motherland.israel america are threating iran to nuke not otherway around.he says this type of decrimatory israhell will not rmain.he is right,most of russian jew returned back.ethopian and arabs are not happy.trying to settle in usa.isreal is corporation not a country.
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“hundred of mosques are also attaacked”70%of bomb planting were on sunni mosques.
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Which are these hundreds of mosques? Yes ahmedi mosques are attacked and so are Shia and brelvi gravesites and dargha… But Sunni deobandi mosques? Name a few. The rabid attacking dogs are the Salafi deobandis and they are the majority of population in Pakistan.salafis like rss are jews they have no support among pakistqanis.sunni religious parties have very little share of vote.salafis were created by britishers.now they are in power.but they are not muslims.have no support among muslims.
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Lets hear the names of the mosques that have been bombed in Pakistan,
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mosques attacked by drones don’t count whoever dies in drone attack goes straight to heaven and america can do anything they want since they feed Pakistanis.
they dont feed pakistanis zoinists dont anybody.they starve everybody.latin america is proof.total aid is 1%of their gdp.
mosques are not attacked inndrones.zoinism is root of all problem.
Notabene.
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My view is that your simple questions may have complex answers. Why is there lack of criticism of Islam in Pakistan? I believe that a full answer may have many facets to it but the basics are based on one single but very important fact. Muslims believe that Quran is the message from God, transmitted to Humanity, via Muhammad the messenger. If one accepts this as the core of the belief, then criticism of Quran is tantamount to criticism of God – who must be beyond criticism. A very similar concept exists in Christianity, which believes that Jesus was the only SON of God and his life and teachings are the ONLY path to God.
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There is no equivalent to these concepts in Hinduism. Hinduism as a religious system existed long before all the books which were subsequently adopted as being Holy Books.
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This basic difference in the genesis of these religions has led to the varying degrees with which criticism of founders/ideological basis of religion is tolerated or not.
to ravi
Questioning beliefs, faiths, so-called revelations and god’s commandments etc. is the only way out of religious (in case of Pakistan: islamic) fascism.
To equate belief/faith with truth is the start of fascism, it is misuse of the god concept and hence the real blasphemy.
That is what we have to tell muslims again and again.
But PTH is wasting time on 1920-48 and Jinnah and Gandhi.
My posts are being sidetracked and I am being called abusive names and ridiculed. What malady does that point at?
This was said by Maulana :-
“I made a reappraisal of the situation and decided to devote all my time and energy for the attainment of our national freedom. I was firm in my belief that freedom of Asia and Africa largely depends on India’s freedom and Hindu Muslim unity is key to India’s freedom.
Even before the First World War, I had realised that India was destined to attain freedom, and no power on earth would be able to deny it. I was also clear in my mind about the role of Muslims. I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence, Muslims were looking on as spectators. Let nobody say that instead of fighting the waves they were standing on the banks and showing mirth on the drowning of boats carrying the freedom fighters [¼].”
This is exactly Musalmans did as norm. They watched while sons of soil were battling the British Imperialists and when the time came , along came the demand of MAJ with usual spread of hand asking “give me this, give me this “. Reward without hard work and sacrifice , no love of land or loyalty to soil. This why no Paki has the list of freedom fighter. Their society is simplay incaapable of producing such gem of men for simple reason that on Inbreeding makes it impossible to infuse such qualties in body and soul. Only Aryaputras are capable of holding high prinicples while Mleecas easily falls for low standards.
I ardently wished that Muslims would learn to walk together with their countrymen and not give an opportunity to history to say that when Indians were fighting for their independence
soon most of india will embrass islam like indonesia.then there will be no problem.parsites will fly to america to spoil that place.
BM
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Today is the Maha Saptami of the Sharadiya Durga Puja. Since lately you have become much too combative towards Bengalis, on this auspicious second day of Durga Puja let me condemn you to perish under traditional Bengali women power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSm8Tg4sxA4&feature=related
P.S. The women in this video seem to be married and perhaps are fit to be your Boudi’s (wife of your elder brother). Don’t cast an evil eye on them.
Fingolfin
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Since you are a lot younger, this one is for you. Same rule, this is Durga Puja, no evil thoughts please!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE4uk2jLGzw&feature=related
NC
Thank you very much!
). Have never been to something like this before( once at home in Bangalore but that was just to pay a couple of food stalls a visit). But will definitely go sometime.
i have never seen or heard of the dance before. Was wonderful.
And wish you a very happy and auspicious pujo
P.S I am sure you are missing Cal but i have heard that where there are Bengalis, there on this day, you will have a lot of fanfare and pomp.
My university has a Bengali group and they go to the city close by where the pujo is celebrated in a big way. Wish i could go but i don’t think i have the right Bengali credentials!( to be fair to them, they don’t know i know Robindro Shongeet
I am sure your area has something similar too. So happy pujo again.
YLH
This is your favorite historian quoting Jinnah in which he emphatically states that Pakistan has always existed. This is pretty much the line that those nonsensical Pakistani text books have always towed. That Pakistan existed since the 9th century when bin Qasim came and defeated the Hindu Kings of Sindh.
I was looking for this one for a while. This, i think, should settle once and for all the question between us. That Jinnah DID in fact ask for an independent Pakistan.
The Congress could have stopped partition had the agreed to certain situations in the 40 to 47 period. But i am glad they did not and i remain convinced that that would have resulted in an extremely messy and protracted affair.
But there is no doubt that Jinnah asked for an independent Pakistan. I think you have overlooked or misinterpreted what Jalal has said in your attempt to glorify Jinnah.
Here it is. She starts talking about it in the third minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbD8AkkBI4k&feature=relmfu
Fingolfin
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Sadly this Puja we are at home because of something in the family. I am reduced to internet surfing and getting some of the flavor from the virtual world. Dhunachi naach is nothing to hear much about. It’s not an artistic dance, just a somewhat amorous dance by men and women in the pandals (with incense burners (dhunachi) in hand)). Someone recently described it as,
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“I am still scarred by a pujo I attended where various men and women took to the floor in front of the protima and gyrated and made eyes at each other in a wild, unshackled, slightly unhinged display of animal desire and very good footwork. It was something akin to what you would usually see on a wildlife program.”
(http://www.firstpost.com/living/sex-in-the-city-what-durga-pujo-does-to-kolkatas-hormones-496430.html)
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Puja season is mating season in Bengal.
NC,
Great videos. Enjoyed watching Dhunichi Naach . Happy Durga Pooja.
NC
hahahahaha!! no wonder you asked BM and me to be careful! Well this makes the Pujo so much more ‘fun’( to use a gross understatement). Now i just have to go to one of these.
I was just skyping with mom and she said that the pandal in my area in Bangalore is all set up and she was trying to find some company. I told her to look out for this dance.
Now i know what it is about the Pujo that galvanizes the entire Bengali spectrum! Nothing can work better.
i also found this bit in the article to be something i never knew.
” During the pujos, roads which had nary a food stall, are suddenly peppered with food carts and pop-up restaurants serving everything from phuchka to rolls to Bengal’s state cuisine – Chinese food.”
haha never knew Bengalis liked Chinese so much but all this explains the one pandal i visited coming out slightly confused but amazed.
ALL THE MONEY spent on Pujas and Pujaris.. have to be kept aside.. and given to Poor Hindus.. for the purpose of : FOOD., EDUCATION., MEDI-CARE. Its a waste. All the money spent on Ganeshas.. (Rs. 200 billion wasted).. Durga Puja.. (I dont know how many millions are wasted).. All this is bluff.. and a tasteless waste.
Argument: But others also waste. Christians waste during Christmas.. (Jesus was born on May 27.. “The dates fell.. as Mariam (Mary) touched the tree”.. Date harvesting season is May-June and not icy December 25.. in Bayt-al-Laham the house of meat/butcher.. [Bethlehem], Nazarath (Nazereth).. Muslims spend on Idd and Bakrid..
All these are wasteful expenses.. completely waste.
MUSLIMS MUST NOT WASTE A SINGLE RUPEE. Moo mein pakad ke rakkho.. ek ek paisa.. ek ek rupia. The Bania is out to steal your money and kill you. Remember this 24×7. Do NOT fall into the Marwari TRAP. Defeat the Marwari. Muslims waste Rs. 500 billion annually. All this waste must stop.
Muslims must live in thatched Huts.. (with internet connectivity). Huts made of Cardboard.. with insulated walls.. can survive for 30 yrs.. Nothing is waste. We have to recycle everything and use everything. Recently in israel., they built a bicycle out of Cardboard.. to be sold for USD 10/-.. So Muslims must live in Huts.. (roof will be lined with thick plastic sheet to protect from rain).. walls made of bamboo and CARDBOARD.. Doors of insulated cardboard.. An eco-friendly hut can be built for Rs. 20 to 30,000/-.
Muslims must spend only on 2 items : Food and Education. All else is waste. I repeat : ALL ELSE is waste. We are poor.. so brands are not for us. They do not exist for us. We ourselves are SUPER BRANDS.. so we dont need Armani.. and Louis Vuitton.. They are for “other people”.. let them enjoy it.
Muslims worldwide.. must not waste a GRAIN of food. Ek daana waste nahin hona chaahiye. Do not throw away food.. cuz if you do so.. you will starve.. and beg one day. Respect grain. Respect food. DO NOT THROW AWAY FOOD.. Eat unpolished rice.. whole-grains.. rotis.. Grow some vegetables in the garden.. atleast 50% of your food-needs should come from the vegetable garden..
EDUCATION (24×7).. GARDENING (Kitchen-Gardening.. with a lots of vegetables growing).. FRUIT-LADEN TREES (Supplying fruit all the year-round).. and EXTREME FRUGALITY as regards money.
EMULATE WARREN BUFFET. That is the role model. An old 2-room home. An Old Volvo. Old clothes.. NO BRANDS.. (All brand-tags were flushed out ages ago)..
THE MARWARI IS OUT TO STEAL YOUR MONEY.. O’MUSLIM.. BEWARE
Drona
“ALL THE MONEY spent on Pujas and Pujaris.. have to be kept aside.. and given to Poor Hindus.. for the purpose of : FOOD., EDUCATION., MEDI-CARE. Its a waste. All the money spent on Ganeshas.. (Rs. 200 billion wasted).. Durga Puja.. (I dont know how many millions are wasted).. All this is bluff.. and a tasteless waste.”
The money spent in Puja’s does go to the poor. You have no idea how many poor are employed during the puja time. they earn their money. I know Islam believes in charity but i don’t.
Charity is just a method of assuaging your guilt but doing nothing substantial. You are just perpetuating the status quo.
That is why it is so important to earn. You cannot be dependent. I actually sometimes get the feeling that it is because of these flawed economic concepts that Muslims have such poor social indicators. THey have to try a new angle.
Charity does not work. Work does.
Mohan
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Thanks very much. You are one of the nicest guys around and a pleasure to talk to.
Dronacharya
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Fingolfin is absolutely right. A lot of money is indeed spent in the Pujas and such but much of it goes to the craftsmen pandal makers clothesmen artisans hawkers food vendors flower vendors decorators and guess what many of them are Muslims. a lot of the workers that make pandals such as these,
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(https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=902&bih=530&q=durga+puja+pandal&oq=durga+puja+pandal&gs_l=img.12..0l10.87.87.0.2551.1.1.0.0.0.0.122.122.0j1.1.0…0.0…1ac.c4gQUfPWiFA)
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in Calcutta and the mofussil towns do come from the poor background.
Ravi wrote:
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That is the big difference! In Hinduism gods are not beyond reproach. When Rama sends forth Sita because of hearsay in his kingdom regarding her virtue, he is criticized even to this day, and the subject is discussed. When Shiva as Bhairava cuts off Brahma’s fifth head, he too is forced to do penance and wander around in the forests almost naked. When Vishnu severs the head of the wife of Sage Bhrigu in an incident, Vishnu is cursed to take avatars on Earth as penance and to experience death and loss.
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So nobody is above Rta and Dharma. Even gods have to live by Dharma. It does not matter if the gods are real, symbolic, cosmic or mythological. The fact is that they too are bound by Dharma.
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In Islam, allegedly Allah gives the laws and everybody follows them, but nobody can question whether the giver of “laws” acts within those laws or not. There is no system to question whether the “laws” themselves are according to any principles.
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It is this lack of accountability of the highest instance and those who speak in his name that forms the main difference between Hinduism and Islam. Only if there is accountability would the people be encouraged to check for it, and thereby to discuss all aspects of the religion – the law-giver, the laws, the law-bringer, and the law-upholders.
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The perfect system demands accountability as a principle right at its core! Everything else is fascist.
Fin : You have a fine mind.. and i really love to interact w/u. However, be it Hindu, Muslim.. Puja or Idd.. I HATE WASTEFUL EXPENSE. You can call me frugal. I can live with it. As regards MONEY : Earning money is hard.. but handling money even harder. Do not wear branded clothes. I dont mind wearing a shirt with 70 PATCHES.. or living in a hut.. just an existential life.. and i will fight for pennies.. but at the same time.. i must have the grit.. the backbone.. the strength.. to write a check for a few crores.
I got your point.. Charity.. do not perpetuate poverty by charity.. Its a deep thought. I dont care who the artisan is.. But these SOCIAL MORES.. THESE FUN CARNIVALS.. provide jobs.. and incomes.. (TRICKLE DOWN THEORY.. but in an indirect way). You say that.. I do not like the direct.. nor the indirect way.
DO NOT do charity.. Keep Money With Yourselves. Be like WARREN BUFFET.. Do not throw money away. Do NOT throw GRAIN (ANNAH).. AWAY. What is wrong with this. Is there a fight over this.. There is NO Fight over this. Not a single roti must be thrown away. Not a morsel of rice must be thrown away. Go for kitchen-gardening.. grow your own vegetables. Where is the Argument on these points.
I think very deeply. Muslims are very very poor.. sometimes i think.. will it be possible.. if HOME SCHOOLING were given a boost.. but a home (A HUT) would need 4 TVs.. and 4 connections.. if there are 4 kids in the house.. (of varying age/comprehension).. I put my mind to that.. and i believe.. HOME SCHOOLING.. DISTANCE LEARNING is the future..
SO NO EXPENSES, PLEASE. EVEN IF YOU HAVE MONEY.. KEEP IT.. KEEP THE BILLIONS.. AND ESTABLISH INSTITUTIONS.. That is a NICE WAY of TRICKLING DOWN.. to the labour (i dont care the labour/craftsmen/whatever.. are of X religion or Y.. they must be good labour.. thats all).
There is too much of religion (which is symbolism sans feeling) in India.. but very little of humanity. It has become a nation of BARBARIANS.. thanks to RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal… It has turned Hindu boys/men into rapists/killers.. and Hindu women devoid of MAMATA.. Hindu women are killing muslim babies with swords and hands.. If they have reached THOSE levels.. then Hinduism is close to death. HINDUTVA will destroy Hinduism in a few decades.. maximum a century.
Man doesnt learn from history.. Alas.
The Pujari Must Work. In the fields.. factory.. whatever. The Mullah Must Work. In the fields.. factory.. whatever. IF ANY Religious person asks for MONEY, then that guy (he/she) is a fraud. I respect religious-inclined people.. but they must be in poverty. The moment i see a Guru in Car.. in good health.. i know.. he is a CHEATER and A FRAUD.
Do not give a single penny to a Pujari or Mullah or Priest. Tell him to go and work.. in the fields.. factory.. whatever.
Do NOT give coconut in the temple.. He collects all coconuts (half) and sells them all at the Mithai Bhandar.. (Nariyal Ki Mithai). THe Pujari is a crook.. rapist.. killer.. and blackmailer.. When you buy a new bike/car.. do the puja yourself.. Do not go the pujari. he charges Rs. 5000 for bike.. and Rs. 10000 for the car. Keep this money.. and build an institution..
NOT CHARITY (Sau Pachaas de dena.. to boost one’s ego).. but INSTITUTION BUILDING MY DEAR..
INSTITUTION BUILDING is the REAL PUJA.. THE REAL PRAYER.. for the elated mind.
NOTHING IS WASTE. Nothing must be wasted. Wash your clothes. Iron them. Give them to the poor. Food : NOT a morsel of grain to be wasted. Eat unpolished rice. Not a single roti to be wasted. Housing : Start living in Thatched Huts. Building Homes is a wasteful expense. I think we can build Eco-friendly Huts with Cardboard walls.. and THATCHED roofs.. very airy.. and eco-friendly. Kitchen-gardening must be encouraged to provide 50% of the food requirements of the home.. Education : For those who are very very poor.. DISTANCE learning is the future. The age of Diplomas..Certificates.. Gowns is over. Its THE SKILL that will count. Throw away the papers.. they are trash. Grab the SOUL.. grab the skill.
Muslims too waste a lot of money. Rs. 500 billion are wasted on Eids. Oh ! What a waste.. Oh ! What stupidity.. In these Rs. 500 billion.. how many CBSE (K-120 high schools can we build. The Govt. will NEVER build even a single school for muslims.. AN IFTAR PARTY.. AN ANNUAL MUSHAIRA is enough. Muslim-vote does not matter anymore.. BJP openly says : “We dont need your votes”. This is indirect dis-enfranchisement !
THERE IS A COMPETITION OF SORTS.. of WHO CAN DESTRUCT HIMSELF ! Muslims spend on Eid.. so Hindu must spend 200 times more on Puja ! Hunh ! Both are Stupid. There is no soul in these festivals.. Only Symbolism.. In REAL ISLAM.. muslims must work on the Eid day.. there is no concept of HOLIDAY in Islam.. All this crap has accumulated over the years. People carry Muslim-names.. thats all. The spirit is gone.
REVIVE THE SPIRIT… and then the Glory is yours.. As above.. So below.. THY KINGDOM COME.. on Earth.. as it is in heaven !
Prophet Muhammad.. established The Lord’s Kingdom on Earth !
Hz. Eissa (Esau/Jesus) had said : “I have seen HIM (Noor-e-Muhammadi.. the Pre-creation Tower of light.. and the life-source of every living cell.. ) in heavens.. If i were to live in HIS times.. i would gladly tie his shoe-strings.. and consider it an HOnour !
Allah O’Akbar.. God is great.. PRAISE THE LORD.. in any language you know.. and you will get DIVINE ENERGY. God..He is very close-by.. and he knows all languages.. and also knows your INNERMOST thoughts.. Feel HIS PRESENCE around you.. and you are filled with DIVINE ENERGY.
He is neither the subject.. nor the predicate.. HE is the VERB.. Action.
Make money – billions – but learn to use judiciously. Every penny counts. Every morsel of grain.. every roti counts.. DO NOT WASTE A SINGLE PENNY. NOTHING IS WASTE. EVERYTHING MUST BE RE-CYCLED.. AND RE-USED.. AND RE-USED.. AND RE-USED.
I really love this gentleman Drone. He says make money – billions -
but don’t spend. Only make educatinal institutes . Live in huts, wear
torn cloths with patches, no TVs, no mobiles, no cinemas, eat simple that means not going to restaurants, sleep on floors etc etc.
Now I am wondering if everyone does that how willa person make his billions. If I an a builder who will buy from me houses if everyone
is staying in huts. Who will buy cloths from a cloth merchants, Manufacturers of TV, mobiles, videos will go bankrupt, all cinemas will close down and with that whole film industry will collapse and in
process millions will lose jobs, all restuarants will be closed, furnitrue shops will down their shutters. Almost every business will come to standstill and we will have few billion educated people
without jobs
.
I really love this gentleman, Drone.
Drona
Thanks a lot for that
Yes institution building is extremely important but so is profligacy. Austerity also does not work from an economic perspective. When people are stressed and buy less, the poor are affected the most. Inflation rises and that further decreases spending resulting in a vicious cycle for all.
Economists today do not think that austerty measures are good for a country even when executed as policy when countries are stressed. Money in the market has to flow rely for the general upwards mobility of all.
NC
those pictures were mesmerizing. Really missing India right now. Miss the colour, the excess and the fact that something or the other is happening all the time back home.
Pujo, Dusshera, Diwali, Holi, Baisakhi, Id, Shankranti, Christmas, various new years, pongal, Jnamashtami, Rakhi…..endless list of amazing days. Each with a different celebration. So much more happening. Best part was getting holidays for each of them. One of the most important reasons we have remained secular
Fin : I grasped the essence of your argument.. it goes like this : “I make my money – so aint i entitled to a little fun.. excitement.. happiness. These religious symbolism (rituals/festivals) give me an opportunity to eat.. dress.. have a party.. so it is sort of a Brasilian Carnival.. with a religious excuse (again plain symbolism).. nothing to do with spirituality at all.. that is at a higher plane anyways ! But my symbolism provides JOBS.. my craving for fun feeds people INDIRECTLY.. Aint this too.. a way of Trickle-down Theory ? It is… but the means are wrong. Means are as important as the END. Casinos also provide JOBS. But are they right. They provide jobs to 200,000 but ruin 20 million families.. 20×4 = 80 million. So should i focus on 80 million or 200,000 ? Which is the larger good.. or the larger evil ? THAT is the question.
Festivals are OK. Carnivals are OK. Its your hard-earned money. YOU have a right to enjoy it. Either on religious-symbolism.. or in Carnival(s).. or in Disneyland. Afterall “all work and no play makes Jack…” So. that craving for FUN is understandable.. and apprecaited… and RECOGNISED as such.
But.. this is a lower form of enjoyment. Rs. 500 BILLION wasted on Ganesha Chaturti.. Handi-Breaking. What for ? Why the BIG-Sized Ganeshas.. To terrorise the Muslims .. that we march in Lakhs.. so be afraid of us. Today it is Ganesha in our hands.. tomorrow it will be swords and Acid Bombs and Gas Cylinders ? TILAK had used Ganesha.. to bring about POLITICAL UNITY and POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS.. but that became an excuse for MASS-MOBILISATION and RIOT-POGROM EXECUTION. This is the wrong use of symbolism.. These Plaster-of-Paris GANESHAS.. destroy the RIVERS. Do you know about toxic impact.. de-silting.. of rivers would take another Rs. 5000 Billion to clean. The Ganga is totally polluted… so are all rivers inside India. Look at the beautiful rivers in Europe. They did not dump plaster of paris in TONS… to destroy them. You destroy NATURE in the garb of Festivals and Symbolism.. that is not decent.
So many trees cut.. to burn dead bodies.. Electric crematorium : Again electricity is wasted. WHy dont you bury them.. that is eco-friendly.. economical… cheap. How many billions of Rs. are spent.. per annum.. on burning hindu dead bodies.. how many million trees are cut ? Apart from economic losses.. there are ecological losses.. loss of electricity (first of all.. electric crematoriums are few.. but they too burn electricity). this can be saved.. if hindus are buried.. What is wrong with that. It is ECONOMIC SAVING. SAVING OF MONEY. TREES. ELECTRICITY. Whats the big deal.
BUT THAT IS THE MUSLIM-WAY OF BURIAL.. So do you want us to convert to Muslims.. (as a dead body). What matters if you are burnt/buried.. once you are dead. BECAUSE ITS ECONOMICAL… AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
The muslim-burial is the cheapest.. economical.. natural element.. back to natural element.. mother earth… it enriches the EARTH.. because elements serve as fertilisers..
THAT IS THE ESSENCE. CONSERVATION AND PROPER USE OF NATURAL RESOURCES. MONEY. FOOD. WATER. All these have to be used with the greatest care. We are not owners.. only TRUSTEES.
All old clothes to be washed.. ironed.. and given to the poor. 70% of the clothes in the closet, we do not use. They are occupying space. Life is so cluttered. Get rid of the clutter. All the items not used in the house., must be gotten rid off.. but in a decent way. The receiver should not feel insulted. Give him wrapped.. decently.. in a nice way.
NOTHING is to be wasted. Everything re-cycled. Living in THATCHED HUTS (Cardboard walls.. with proper insulation.. the hut can survive for 30 years).. no cars.. travelling by BICYCLE… its good for health.. and legs.. Books.. papers.. all re-cycled..
Imagine the President, Prime Minister of India, Ministers, MPs… all living in HUTS.. the Cabinet Secretariat.. Ministries.. all in huts.. travelling by bicycles.. growing vegetables in kitchen gardens.. wearing ONLY KHADI.. eating simple food.. all in front of LIVE TV.. WHAT impact that will create in society.
Rashtrapati Bhavan.. all Lutyens Buildings.. released for SCHOOLS and Educational Institutions..
Drone
you being a more integral part of an interdependent system if you spend well on yourself. This is of course the best excuse for shopaholics, but also true.
I think you need to go on a big splurge. A shopping spree the likes you have never imagined. No more 70 patch shirts and rafu kiya gaya pant. You can comfort yourself by telling yourself that nothing is better for the poor.
Of course that is provided you come back home and do all that in India rather than Dubai!
Schools working days : 180 out of 365 ! Masha Allah..
Central Govt. Holidays / Bank Holidays : 22 out of 365.. plus sundays.. plus saturdays.. plus dharnas.. political hungamas.. strikes.. riots.. rains.. Oh My God.. they total to a minimum of 100 out of 365.
Curfews per annum ?
How many loss of man-hours.. production.. Anyone to do the calculation. WIth this definition of freedom.. we cant get rid of economic poverty. It will be a garbage-nation.
The whole thing has to be turned UPSIDE DOWN. Band aids do not.. will not work. Otherwise you have what we have.. Tolerate the nonsense.. Corruption (90% of money given by the Central Govt of India goes into Pvt. Pockets !). Ninety Percent. This is the condition of the supply chain. Tomatoes bought from the farmer @ Rs. 2/kg. Sold in the market @ Rs. 52/kg. The middleman (supply chain) profit : Rs. 50/kg.
I got your Lawrence Summers argument.. that austerity will CHOKE the economic jaggernaut. So SPEND.. and SPEND.. and SPEND.. so that THE MACHINE is turned ON.. remains ON. But sooner or later.. this will crash.
I want to go back to THATCHED HUTS – BICYCLE – RE-CYCLING OF EVERY DAMN THING IMAGINABLE – Every penny to be accounted – Conservation (Money/Water/Resources) – strengthen the base.. SCHOOLS.. SKILL BUILDING.. and throw the YOKE of the brands (East India company).
Brands will colonise/enslave us.. in a unseen way. Why so many cars ? Why dont Indians travel by BICYCLE.. ITS GOOD FOR HEALTH. You have 20 cars in a house.. then obesity.. then join the gym.. health club.. nutritionist… WHy dont you cut the problem at the root. WALK.. or BICYCLE.
Gandhiji walked 15/kms a day. Never had a car. Wanted to go meet the viceroy stark naked.. Mrs. Naidu said.. “but that is…”.. He corrected : “I aint nude.. Aint I wearing MY SKIN”.. Had Gandhiji climbed the stairs and met the viceroy naked.. believe me.. the fake 3-piece suited bluffer Mountbatten would have been reduced to ASH. Gandhiji had no qualms standing b4 a million cameras.. and live TV.. stark naked.. and smiling. HE HAD THAT LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE.
That confidence comes from a very basic BUT FIRM thought : SWADESHI. Without Swadeshi.. its enslavement.. traps.. bombs.. disgraceful death.. and enslavement.. again and again and agian.
I dont care for the Rating Agencies.. SWADESHI is my Rating Agency.
Drona
had not read your last post.
Well i really do not think that Ganesh Chaturthi has lead to any sectarian violence. I do agree with you that Tilak used it to Mobilize Hindus, but not to intimidate Muslims. These can be mutually exclusive and in this case it is so rest assured my friend.
I also agree with the pollution that the Ganesha’s cause and that is something that i have fretted about for a while now. Diwali too.
At home, i should tell you, Ganesh Chatirti is big. The whole household is in an uproar. I am proud to say that i have convinced my father to but eco=frinedly Ganesha’s with no paint. Ganesha’s and lamps(Diwali) really help the potter too you know.
How fast the opinion changes. Just few minutes back I was in love of the frugal ideas of Drone, but I don’t at all agree with his views on casinos. Casinos are great, I enjoy gambling in these casinos, – winning and losing is part of gamblig but the idea is to do what you enjoy doing -, half naked bar girls, strip shows and many other interesting things. How can anyone criticize casinos. I am forced to
change my views on Drone, don’t think I love him any more.
-
Fingolfin,
Drone lives in Saudi Arabis not in Dubai.
That is Saudi Arabia not Saudi Arabis.
Diwali : A beautiful festival of lights. As a child., i always placed the earthen DIYAS.. a dozen or two of them.. with cooking oil.. i used to take from the kitchen.. take some coton.. make the BAATI.. and lit them.. place them at the gate.. doors.. window sill.. It looked well.. very nice.. a few crakers.. the ANAAR.. the Phool-Jhadi.. but that was all. Not the Noise-polluting crackers… All night of disturbance.
CELEBRATE FESTIVALS.. but with DECENCY. So earthen diyas are ok.. Ganeshas are also OK.. if they are eco-friendly.. small.. and do not destory rivers (cuz cleaning is VERY EXPENSIVE). If you kill the Ganga.. its not cool. And Ganga is dying..
The same goes for Idd.. Christmas.. THE PRINCIPLE IS THE SAME. I dont change it for X or Y or Z. Have your festivals.. but dont OVER-DO it. Keep it simple.. and elegant. Do not try to OVERDO THINGS.. (TO IMPRESS THE OTHER). All are poor. 70% of the country is poor. 65% have no drinking water. 45% no sanitation ! With those statistics.. how can i have a feeling of being RICH.. even if i wear Armani / Prado ? Even if i do so.. at a macro level.. im still very very poor… and I realise the MACRO poverty that eats me up. HENCE SAVING EVERY SINGLE PENNY.. ITS ALL YOURS. USE IT.. BUT JUDICUOSLY.. NOT CHEAPLY.
I cannot submit / bow b4 Lawrence Summers.. (KEEP SPENDING).. or Alan Greenspan.. or the damn Rating Agency.
I am happy with my Swadeshi..v/s. Lawrence Summers / Alan Greenspan / Timothy.. whatever. At the moment.. our foundation is shaky and weak. Let us strengthen that. Once we improve the reality.. we can always buy Armanis / Louis Vuitton.. It may take 3-4 centuries.. So be it.
SWADESHI.. WE NEED IT.. FOR THE NEXT 3-400 YEARS. There is no other option/choice… Khadi-Huts-Bicycle-Recylcing everything-Austerity to the utmost/Unpolished Rice/Not a single morsel of rice to be wasted.. not a single ROTI.
Let others (US/EU) waste their billions.. They are rich people.. they can go to Las Vegas.. For me… KHEDA, BARDOLI and Champaran is more important than Vegas..
Mohan
i know. Just said Dubai because it is a very popular shopping destination.
Drona
Completely agree with Swadeshi and the bicycle bit. One of the bigger problems India is facing today is the problem of managing the fiscal deficit and that goes only by improving domestic manufacturing. our imports are too high compared to our exports( largely because of the oil import). Domestic manufacturing has to be beefed up to counter that so you are absolutely right about Swadeshi.
Also when i mean profligacy, i don’t mean irrational profligacy but that which is within your means. It should not hinder you from moving up the ladder. If you can contain t=it that way, and most people manage to do that without any instruction, then this system can last forever.
Expense Mgmt : Expenses on FOOD : OK., Expenses on Education: SUPER OK., Expenses on Medicare: Fine… Taxes : Pay on Time.. BEYOND THIS.. austerity. Austerity on Ganesha Chaturti.. Deepavali.. Dussehra.. Gawd.. we have 23 festivals in a year.. (2 p.m. on average). THAT is too much. Should have 2 or 3.. The christians have christmas.. and easter.. and thats it.. Here there are 23 (19 for Hindus). Simply too much.. Waste of money.
On Festival Day : Hindus can have a bath.. pray for an hour.. and go to work. That should be the way it is. Same for Idd/Christmas/Navroz.
BUT MAN NEEDS SOME FUN TOO : Yes.. Its an emotional need.. I understand. YES.. this craving for fun also provides jobs (the potter who makes diyas.. in Diwali).. Ganeshas..flower-garlands.. etc.. In other words.. your emotions have an Economic Angle.. that is for the greater good. So Taj Mahal also gets us USD 12 BN. per annum (Tourism).. and many jobs.. That is gr8..
But i still wish.. Shahjehan had built a Harvard (It started as a Christian MADRASA).. instead of a Masoleum. I mean both are beautiful. The Taj.. v/s. Harvard.. but the outcomes turned out to be totally different.
All Indian Rivers are Dying. And I dont want pollution in them. Small Ganeshas are OK.. but plaster of paris.. no. If these Ganeshas are dumped.. in the next 100 yrs.. we wont have the rivers at all.. so all the VISARJAN will have a natural death.. you will have to do it in the Bath-Tub in the Bathroom. Dont push NATURE to THAT level. Keep it simple..
Simple birthdays.. simple marriages.. simple festivals.. WHY OVER-DO IT.. To impress X/Y/Z.. that you are richer.. better.. Get off that DESIRE.. Some people have Sandalwood Doors in their home (Rahul Dravid’s home.. the main door.. is made of Sandalwood!). SO this is what i hate. Unnecessary expense.
Ive been thru the shopping-spree phase.. I outgrew it all.. I guess. DIKSHA is not complete.. but partial. But I think..
SWADESHI gives me comfort.. Its a word.. i love. It has a sea of meaning. I can fill pages about it. It has many dimensions.. And it sounds beautiful to the ear.
Nehru put it beautifully : “Even a HUT can be beautiful.. if its aesthetically maintained”. A hut.. with a Rangoli outside.. earthen pots.. but in 2012.. i would want the hut to have internet connectivity. And dont feel ashamed about it. Gandhi has the confident to go and meet the Fully dressed Cologned Viceroy stark NAKED. Develop that LEVEL of CONFIDENCE.
That is our reply to Alan Greenspan / Lawrence Summerce / Timothy … whats his surname.. They are all very enlightened people.. i respect them.. but we have huge numbers.. and we know.. there is no one to give us a cent.. and we dont want it too.. We can make bicycle from BAMBOO.. or Cardboard.. (Cardboard bicycle from re-cycled paper/cartoons.. will cost USD 5/-.. and can be sold for USD 10/-). Thats the sort of desi solution(s) I love.
Fingolfin,
For manufatuirng India has to compete with China and that is not going to be very easy. In India not only thnigs like cycles, shoes, furnitures items, stationary items but even things like rakhis,
diwali cracker, diyas and candels are also imported in huge quantity
from China.
Durga Puja Expenses : All the money must be sent quietly to Santiniketan. BAS. You can have a bath.. and Surya Namaskar.. and the Festival is done with. Similarly for Ganesh Chaturti : All the money must be sent to some fine society in Pune (for instance the Servants of India Society). and thats it. Small Mini-Eco-Friendly Ganeshas would look cool.
All Eid Expenses : Must go to some GOOD honest Charitable Organisation. You can have clothes/sweets.. have it.. simple, yet elegant. Same principle goes for Christmas/Navroz/Guru Nanak Jayanti.
I want Indians to WORK on Festival-Days (23 Holidays). Give them a Vacation.. one month.. if need be.. to relax.. so that they can travel (Bharat Darshan).. by Inter-class.. or 3rd class in Trains.. Develop Tourism Industry (LOCAL).. so that the money remains inside.. within the economy. At the moment.. i am poor.. so i cant think in global terms.. connexion w/the global economy etc.
Local Tourism.. All Indian Families must converge on Kashmir.. Srinagar.. Ladakh.. Gulmarg.. Sonemarg.. Spend your money there.. Buy Kashmiri Shawls.. Kashmiri Silk (the most beautiful garment manufactured thru-out India).. Papier Mache gift items.. Oak-wood boxes.. and return home. Travel to Kerala.. Travel to Rajasthan (Delhi-Agra-Jaipur triangle).. Tourist Trains must run.. with cheap tickets.. all 3rd class bogeys.. Cheap hotels/motels.. all run by the Govt.. and TIGHT/FULLY SECURE law and order.. so that Tourist can enjoy without FEAR. Once you have a grip on law and order.. you unleash joy.. and that unleashes the animal spirit in the economy. Its all inter-related..
Khadi.. spinning the wheel.. must be brought into FASHION. Khadi must be popularised. Khadi must be given respect. Do not mock at it. The threads have a meaning. “LIVERY of freedom” said Nehru.. Similarly.. use the hand.. kids must be encouraged to try their hand at Pottery.. Weaving.. SOME CRAFT. CBSE Sylabbus is beautiful.. i think we can inject/incorporate some FUN/CRAFT element in that. They are trying to inject SPORTS (I have always supported / pushed for that).. but schools today are run in apartments.. i know the reality.. it is not ideal.. so i accept it with its short-comings.. silently. I cant expect every school to be like Institut La Rosey.. or like Lovedale.. or like La Martiniere.. or Woodstock. I understand the gravity.. the reality.. and keep silent.. but also HOPE..
Pranab Mukherjee goes to his village in W. Bengal for Durga Puja. Excellent. Chartered Plane.. Other costs.. : TOTAL Rs. 3 crores. All to make an old corrupt man happy. Why didnt the idiot do the Puja in Delhi. He wants to be with family.. enjoy.. eat.. laugh. He is entitled to it all.. @ his own expense.
He should have travelled by Train (3rd class).. No probs.. with 2 aids.. thats all.. stayed in his village.. as long as he wished.. But here.. this old man.. has caused an un-necessary expense of Rs. 3 crores !
Pratibha Patil’s wasteful expenses cost the exchequer Rs. 800 crores.. The dirty corrupt old woman who stole from Sabzi-walli vendors in Kolhapur ! Pranab will also spend Rs. 800 crores.. in waste. Geriatric Care bahut mahenga ho gaya.
President of India… must live in a Hut. Rashtrapati Bhavan must be vacated.. have a school/college there.
IF any foreign guest comes (we have to impress them.. that we are also rich.. that we are not slumdogs..).. have the meetings in a 5-star hotel.. Thats it. Release all PWD Guest Houses.. There must be schools in them. Give them to the TATAS (Tata Trust).. they will do it.
Dronacharya,
As a Paki, why the hell do you care about Indian politicians and expenditure?
.
What is happening in India is nothing like what’s happening in Pakistan!
dronacharya knows how to dominate a website with his immature emotional outpourings. But can he do anything in reality? Has he done anything useful?
He has done keyboard jihad