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Pak Tea House » Islam » Victory of religious control

Victory of religious control

By Saad Hafiz:

The unequal battle between the depleting ranks of secularists and the growing band of Islamists in Pakistan is all but over. The dream of a progressive, democratic and pluralistic society is in tatters. It appears that secularists could only take comfort from one speech by Mr Jinnah, which lent support to a secular society, while Islamists could count on decades of constitutional accommodation and appeasement.

The Islamist camp has also been boosted by the democratic and military leaders who have used Islam for political gains. Their contribution to the development of an obscurantist and sectarian society is no less than that of the orthodox clerics. Liaquat Ali Khan, the first prime minister of Pakistan, considered among the secularists, sponsored the Objectives Resolution under the pressure of the clerics. This happened immediately after the passing of Mr Jinnah, who had laid down secular guidelines in his speech to the Constituent Assembly. In the following decades, there was a conflict between the secularists and the clerics. This conflict made the task of constitution making difficult, particularly since the Bengalis wanted to keep some secular clauses like joint electorates. Under their influence, a compromise constitution did come up in 1956.

In line with the Objectives Resolution, the preamble to the 1956 constitution spoke of Allah as having “sovereignty over the entire universe”. It spoke of authority exercised by the people of Pakistan as being within the limits “prescribed by Him as a sacred trust”. The preamble spoke of all laws of Pakistan conforming to the Koran and the Sunnah. Muslim scholars had been urging that all legislation be null and void that contravened, in letter or spirit, Islamic law as laid down in the Koran. They had been urging that the powers of government be derived from, circumscribed by, and exercised within the limits of Islamic Sharia law alone.

In 1962, martial law was replaced by a second constitution, with the preamble to the 1956 constitution remaining in place to appease the Islamists. The 1962 Constitution introduced two Islamic institutions, namely the Advisory Council of Islamic Ideology and Islamic Research Institute. The alienation of the Bengalis and the corruption of the generally secular General Ayub’s regime brought another martial law headed by General Yahya Khan, who ordered general elections in the country, which resulted in the total defeat of the fundamentalist parties. Balochistan and the Frontier provinces backed the secular parties. It was under their influence that Pakistan got a somewhat balanced 1973 Constitution with cosmetic and vague Islamic content. Mr Bhutto under pressure from the Islamists soon started to tinker with it. His end came at the hands of the very obscurantist elements that he tried to appease.

General Zia took over after deposing Mr Bhutto. In a self-serving referendum, the people of Pakistan were asked to endorse “the process initiated by General Muhammad Ziaul-Haq, the President of Pakistan, for bringing the laws of Pakistan in conformity with the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and for the preservation of the Islamic ideology of Pakistan, for the continuation and consolidation of that process, and for the smooth and orderly transfer of power to the elected representatives of the people.” General Zia, through a rush of ordinances, also changed the basic laws of the state. Hudood and blasphemy ordinances changed the political culture of the country. Pakistan was on its way of becoming a theocracy.

Benazir Bhutto and Mian Nawaz Sharif who came after Zia did little to reverse the tide of fundamentalism and the exploitation of Islam for personal benefit continued. In fact, the emergence of the Taliban and profusion of the fundamentalist elements were the landmarks of their rule. When General Musharraf took over, he started projecting a secular and liberal image for himself by praising Kemal Ataturk. The orthodox clerics reacted against it and the concessions on relaxing the blasphemy law were quietly shelved.

The imposition of one vision of the ‘good’ on others who may not share it is almost complete. This is indeed antithetical to the notion of a democratic system that protects individual and minority rights. The main fault of organised religion is the reliance on violence rather than on the trust in its own truths. Secularism is not a renunciation of religion, but is a recognition that violence and state-sponsored force should not be the mechanism to spread any ideology. Religious control will inevitably lead to despotism, not democracy, because it privileges power over reason. This should have been reason enough for opposing the efforts of Islamists to enter and seek to seize control of the state and the political marketplace. However, a clear unified lobby who are strong proponents of religious domination, and who provoke attacks on those who value their own autonomy and political choice, are in the driver’s seat. On the other side, there is just a silent populace that has lost its nerve through decades of internal harassment by the ruling forces aligning themselves with the fundamentalists. This one-sided struggle assures victory for those elements that want to ram through their agenda of religious control of state and society.

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213 Responses to "Victory of religious control"

  1. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Dhoort:”WE do not reply to cheapstakes like Magoo”
    .
    You dont have the brains to reply. IF you did you wouldnt have gone for treatment for two months. The electric shocks have only worsened your disease

  2. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    GOTTAM: You even converted to buddhism and took the new name gautam since you are ashamed of the name your parents gave you. You are a munafiq who wants to deny his birth religion

  3. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    DHOORT:”WE do not reply to cheapstakes like Magoo”
    .
    Mark Twain said that the only people who can use the first person plural are these three categories: Kings, Editors and people with tapeworms. Now the only place you can be the king of is the asylum from which you escaped, the only editing which you can do and you dont is your posts. That leaves the last option, get some treatment for your tapeworms.
    .
    They can cause quite a lot of irritation and also explain why you are in such pain causing you to write gibberish always

  4. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The first person plural means “WE”… just to cover your lack of education

  5. Thomas United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    Rex….. I don’t understand “I am the wrong address for you! ” As far as:
    “if your leader was a holy man and in your opinion was a messiha, he is now dead and I can assure you that he is going to stay dead for a very long time”

    I have no leader though there are some leaders I attempt to learn from and emulate.. Buddah, Ghandi, Martin Luther and Martin Luther King…& others. If you are speaking about Obama he is the leader of the country of my current residence but holds no sway for me. I voted for Jill Stein… Obama has killed too many children for me to give him any electoral consideration… I would like to vote for Imran Khan. He seems to me to be one of but a handful of statesmen on this planet of 7 billion…

  6. Thomas United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    I myself am in favor of secular government by nature but believe in religious freedom and religious evolution.

    In the case of Pakistan and India though it seems to me that their partition becomes meaningless if they are both equally secular without any accommodation to the religious foundations of that partition…. But I have no solutions to to offer for this problem.. Some situations are easier to tolerate than to change for the better…

  7. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Thomas,
    Sorry, the 2nd half of my post was for Mahee, the follower of the Mesiha. Sorry.

    Rex Minor

  8. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    rex minor, when you say
    ***///There is only ONE Islam not two! A muslim simply promises to follow the way of life as specified, but does not automaticaly attains the status of a muslim until God so commands it////***

    ALHAMDULILAH, im more muslim then any of you,and i dont need your certification or any of your parliaments and supreme court cerification as well.i have a veryy deep and strong connection with Allah, and INSHALLAH, if ALLAH wills the bond will strenghthen, so yes im crystal clear in my mind about my path.
    secondly when you call yourself muslim i dont know why you forget, that being a muslim we have to follow each and every command of ALLAH, and HOLY Prophet (s.a.w). and i think when i hear a command by any of them it cannot be forgotten. so yes when holy prophet saw said as narrated in ibne majah, “” swear allegiance to the mahdi, when you discover him, even if you have to crawl towards him”,
    and when in sahih bikhari Holy Prophet is narrated as saying “any of you who doesnt follow the mujadid of your time is from the jahilia”
    and when he prophesied about how to discover coming of messiah in the great prophecy of lunar and solar eclipse which you may have heard so many times, i dont think he was joking.He meant his words and being a better muslim i follow his every command, i pray , i fast, give charity i try my best to perform all the basic obligations of a muslim,and then i try my best to follow his each and every command that reaches me.
    so , when a very noble,high charactered, popular missionary of islam, truthful, gold standard muslim saint declared that he is the prommissed messiah ,and his claims to prove his point came true as it is, it was my obligation to fullfill the commands of Holy Prophet (saw) and accept the messiah. because i being more pious then any of you parliament certified muslims, realised divine intervention in the holy coming of messiah.No man has the power to bring moon and sun in one line.you tell me is it possible for you, then please do it right now, and its not by chance these things happen you should know more about this than me.the predictions a meteriologist makes are only predictions with a small probability of their happening so this simple man of a small rural area of punjab who was declaring himself messiah in no way was making prdictions he was declaring himself messiah on god”S command and God proved his words true for us to see and follow him, not fight like we always do with all the prophets.
    okay so dont tell me whose dead and whose not.all prophets were humans and died like humans, like i dont kno that but what you dont realise when people from your group say that jesus was not dead he was taken to mars.thats the most absurd idea muslims scholar have ever come up with, but yes thats okay with you. jesus is dead and he is not coming back, every saying of Prophet related to coming of messiah was fullfilled in the face Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (a.s) so i will follow him , in compliance with the command my beloved Holy Prophet (s.a.w) gave.
    if you dont believe in those ahadees or you dont believe in the sayings of Quran related to messiah then thats your problem.you have selective listening problem and are a selective practicing muslim, well thats between you and God, i m no one to judge you.
    you have passed a judgement here , that my messiah will be dead for a long time, well thanku for sharing your clairvoyant side with us, im sure your words will prove to be completely detrimental with their meaning. get ready for bigger ironies than you can ever imagine. coming of messiah is not a matter in your hands to decide , your duty as human is just to obey him when he comes , to make ALLAH happy.i wish you can understand its the divine forces of ALLAH which have created Ahmaddiyyat,in order to correct all the malpractices that have emerrged in islam over the period of time.It was GOD behind the Messiah who guided him through his journey in creation of Ahmaddiyyat and who showed us clear signs to prove his being messiah.you want to see selective things and stay unaware thats your choice, but trust me , that, in no way makes you a better muslim!
    Good to kno you are the wrong address, but anyway doesnt stop me from fullfilling my obligation,i will pass on the message and share as much as i can.And any one who is not having bias, will see the reality through them.

  9. Maggu India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “A Muslim man was jailed for life today for stabbing his devout Christian ex-girlfriend 13 times after they split following bitter rows about him wanting their young daughter to convert to Islam.”
    .
    Stupid woman, she didn’t know her daughter was getting the final word of God.

  10. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Two
    decades is almost a third of the journey that independent India has
    covered since 1947. It’s been a long journey, chequered with events that
    challenged, threatened and sometimes even sustained – in their own
    convoluted way – the idea of the Indian state. The epoch begins with
    what happened in small-town Ayodhya on Dec 6, 1992 when a medieval
    mosque, labelled as a monument of Mughal pride and persecution, was
    pulled down by a frenzied mob of right-wing Hindu ‘activists’. One need
    not go into the well-documented details of what happened that day.

    The
    only aspect I want you to consider here for the sake of the argument I
    will be making later is that the demolition of Babri Masjid, organised
    by the BJP government in UP and tacitly supported by the Congress
    government at the Centre, was still considered an assault on the Indian
    state. It was constitutionally a ‘crime’ and therefore liable to
    prosecution, which of course did happen. That nobody has been punished
    yet for the demolition and its protagonists today grace the Parliament
    and dream of
    becoming the Prime Minister of the country is a different story.

    Two
    decades later, there is a lot of talk about the nation moving on.
    Presumably towards less hatred and more ‘development’, thanks to another
    epochal event that happened a year before Ayodhya 1992 – the opening of
    the Indian market. But has the state really moved on? If so, then has
    the state moved forward on a trajectory of democracy, justice and
    equality, or has it actually regressed into a delusional and scarier
    behemoth? Let’s consider another example on the ‘decadent’ (couldn’t
    resist the pun)
    timeline as the title of this piece suggests.

    Let’s
    move a decade forward to an event that is again simply called Gujarat
    2002, undeniably the most unfortunate event since Ayodhya 1992. How do
    we look at Gujarat 2002 vis-a-vis the Indian state? Well, we can’t,
    because Gujarat 2002 was all about the state. It was a state-sponsored
    and organised pogrom against its minorities, the main protagonist of
    which has grown more powerful since the violence and represents the
    collective dream of Hindu middle-class as well as its corporates of
    becoming India’s next Prime
    Minister.

    So
    what changed? For the sake of argument, we can say with some comfort
    that the Babri protagonists were largely punished by India’s syncretism.
    Of course, the BJP gained from Ayodhya 1992, forming a short-lived
    government in 1996 and then coming back to power in 1998. Yet, the
    protagonists of the demolition – Kalyan Singh, Vinay Katiyar, Uma
    Bharti, Murli Manohar Joshi and even L K Advani – could never come out
    of its shadow. In contast, Narendra Modi’s only claim to fame, if you
    will, is Gujarat 2002. Modi without the pogrom has no resume to flaunt
    or
    claim his legitimacy as the tallest leader in the same BJP.

    Allow
    me to elaborate. What changed in a decade since 1992 – in the same BJP -
    was that while Advani, the supreme architect of Hindutva in India,
    could not become an accepted prime ministerial candidate because of
    Ayodhya 1992 and the violence that followed, Modi, on the other hand,
    has not only been largely excused from any serious prosecution by the
    law of the land for his role in Gujarat 2002, he is even the BJP’s only
    consensus candidate for the prime minister’s post.

    In
    other words, while we may bask in the growing secularisation of the
    state – marked by a larger rule of law as well as open-market capitalism
    - the fact remains that the Indian state continues to be schizophrenic
    about its self-image. If Ayodhya 1992 was about a bunch of non-state
    loonies pulling down a mosque, Gujarat 2002 was marked by the same state
    being an active participant in a pogrom against its largest minority.
    While Ayodhya 1992 sought to correct a perceived historical wrong by
    erasing its material testimony, Gujarat 2002 did not even care to show
    any pretension other than a crude and
    violent majoritarianism.

    Mumbai
    2012, to move on and conclude, further complicates the pattern of the
    Indian state’s failure to define itself in a more rational, democratic
    and more importantly, secular manner. By choosing to honour a rabid
    hate-monger who mocked at all the ideals a liberal nation is supposed to
    stand for, the state displayed its pathological schizophrenia like
    never before. The state funeral of Bal Thackeray, in other words,
    expunged him of his role in the killing of hundreds of Muslims in Mumbai
    post-Ayodhya 1992, which is just one among his and his
    party’s many assaults on the state. Moreover, as the year 2012 closes,
    the killer of Gujarat 2002 is set to return as the Chief Minister of the
    state for a record fourth term.

  11. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mahee,
    There is no such thing called “more muslim”. Stop qualification and quantification of ‘Islam’, ‘muslim’ or even ‘human’. Either one is or one is not! No mortal has the right to issue certification for a muslim, God the merciful alone is the one who determines our fate.

    I do follow the advice of Mohammad(pbuh) to use my brain to understand, interpret and try to follow Gods commandments. Recognising that I am a sinner, I do not recognise your Messiha nor have the need to discover the coming one.

    You keep firm in your faith and let me please keep mine. I am hus a plain born sinner.

    Rex Minor

  12. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    DISHAA BADLO – DASHAA BADLO.

    It is time to set this to a new Raga. The discourse must change. The topics that we talk of, must change.

    It is hard. But bury the Past. Look towards the Future with confidence and MOVE ON. The first step is always the hardest. DO not focus on what you do NOT have. Thank for what you HAVE… and how you can use it for optimal use.

    No one will give a cent. No one will send a hot-hot Pizza. No one cares whether you live or die. So be your own master. All muslim participants on PTH.. must do MBA or CA. Mere talk is a waste of time.

    Au revoir.

  13. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex

    I am sorry, I could not follow your entire discussion with our Ahmadi friends but hopefully you might have seen by now, at least partly, why so many Muslims view Ahmadism as they do. An Ahmadi is not only ‘more Muslim’ than you, unless you accept Mr Ahmad as a Prophet (which implies, accepting his views and ‘interpretations’ as being tinged with ALLAH’S DIRECT GRACE) you are not a Muslim at all. In effect, in rejecting Mr Ahmad, you are rejecting Allah.

    Although I have never claimed to be a Muslim, but simply logically, the above seems to be a very offensive stand to take against all Muslims – a point that I am not afraid to make – unfortunately much to the displeasure of all other non-Muslims who, understandably, would like to protect, promote and support Ahmadism.

  14. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    HF

    Chowk is, mercifully, dead. Its management lost interest, so it was better to let it fade away.

    Well, remember the war between Pakistan of the ruling classes and Islam of the masses? So we now have Pakistanis sitting in Karachi and Islamabad trying to rename schools in far away places after Ms Malala, and you witness the spectacle of local girls in Islamic attire protesting this imposition.

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/478808/students-protest-against-naming-of-saidu-sharif-college-after-malala/

    Or of the (first instance of?) Pakistani police officials refusing register cases against an alleged blasphemer till they are forced by local people to do so. Now blasphemy is a well-established crime in Pakistan and people who kill blasphemers, like Illumuddin, are heroes.

  15. abbas haider United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    rex drona,news from country of avtars,

    RELATED.
    NEW YORK: An Indian-origin woman has been sentenced to 20 years in prison and ordered to pay a penalty of over $14 million on charges of healthcare fraud.

    Meera Sachdeva, 50 of Mississippi was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison followed by three years of supervised release on charges that she defrauded federal insurance programme Medicare by submitting false claims for chemotherapy services, US attorney Gregory Davis said in a statement.

    Sachdeva, who owned and operated a cancer centre, had pleaded guilty in July this year to submitting claims for chemotherapy services that were supposedly rendered when she was out of the country.

    She was also ordered to pay a $250,000 fine and restitution of over $8.1 million.

    The forfeiture of approximately $6 million and property was also ordered.

    She had admitted billing for more chemotherapy drugs than she actually purchased from drug suppliers from 2007 to 2011.

    Her patients believed that they were receiving an amount of chemotherapy medicine that was equal to the amount being billed to their respective health care benefit programmes, but she was not providing each patient with the fully prescribed dosage of many of the billed chemotherapy drugs.

    “The health care fraud perpetrated by the defendant was an abuse of public trust motivated by greed,” Davis said.

    Special agent in charge of the US department of health and human services Derrick Jackson said Sachdeva violated her duty to provide appropriate care for the patients at the cancer centre.

    “Our office takes quality of care concerns very seriously, and we will vigorously investigate any provider that shortchanges patients and steals from the Medicare Trust Fund”.

  16. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Every male Muslims should be named muhammed because muhammed was allah’s favorite profet and every female Muslim should be named as Aisha because she was muhammed’s favorite wife.

  17. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Muslims should move away from kuffar education. Kuffar education leads to kuffar lifestyle and takes one away from Islam. Muslims should focus on Islam, muhammed and Allah because only Allah has the power to get people into jannat.

  18. abbas haider United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    mtg kee ch…ree

  19. abbas haider United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    from country of avtars,……………………A newborn at a Hyderabad hospital was seriously mauled, allegedly by a cat.

    Three of his fingers have been bitten off.

    His parents, both daily wage earners, say that hospital officials wrapped up his hands in bandages to conceal their negligence and his injuries.

    Most Recent
    Elizabeth Hurley is suffering from flu
    Rajinikanth’s 12.12.12. birthday sees the superstar mingling with fans
    The child was born on November 18. Earlier this week, he was sent to his parents’ village in an ambulance; the parents say they were told not to show the baby to anyone or to remove his bandages.

    Yesterday, they discovered his injuries and complained to the hospital. The baby is now being treated at another government hospital.
    ,

  20. Maggu India Google Chrome  GT-N7100 Build/JRO03C) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.166 Mobile Safari/535.19 says:

    Abbas is gottam. Sharma gaya beycharaa

  21. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Since no one is interested in doing C.A. (us mein mehnat bahut hai)., and/or MBA., let me switch over to something “LIGHT”. This will delight hearts. So., here it is :

    Pt. Ravi Shankar. died in San Diego. He was a gifted musician.. but was not cut out for Film Music. Though a song tuned by him…(Anuradha)

    Jaane kaise sapnon mein kho gayee, ankhiyaan ?
    Main to hoon jaagi… meri sow… gayee ankhiyaan… ! Its a beautiful song.

    He also played the SITAR INTERLUDE in the fantastic rain-song..

    O’-4 Sajana… Barkhaa Bahaar Aayi… Rass kee Phu`haar laayi..
    Sapnon mein Pyaar Laayi Ho… Sajana…

    Hrishikesh Mukherjee made a movie on the life of Pt. Ravi Shankar.. and his 1st wife.. that great Mastreo., Roshanara Khan (popularly known as Padmavibhushan Mrs. Annapoorna Devi… Her music is divine. She hasnt given a concert for the past 50 yrs.. She plays only for her God / Allah /Eashwar in her language of “music”. She is a saint.).

    I saw him in Concert.. What a presence.. What depth.. He was a deep man. His music was like an “ocean”. And he was recognised, very early on. I mean., he was a celebrity for 80 of his 92 years of life ! The whole family is “immensely” talented… not to sound flattering.

    RIP.. Pt. Ravi Shankar.. and he carried his music and celebrity-status very lightly. He was always laughing.. and joking.. Was not a bore.

    He tuned Iqbal’s “Saarey Jehan Se Achcha”… from its traditional to a NEWER tune. Its very hard to tune Iqbal’s work.. but very few people could do that.. like Ravi Shankar and Roshan (Roshanlall – An “A” Grade Artiste w/AIR).

  22. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    we will know our disinformation programm is complete only when everything the american public believe is false.general causey cia director 1981 followed by brhmnst of india.

  23. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    ////”"”"There is no such thing called “more muslim”. Stop qualification and quantification of ‘Islam’, ‘muslim’ or even ‘human’. Either one is or one is not! No mortal has the right to issue certification for a muslim, God the merciful alone is the one who determines our fate.
    I do follow the advice of Mohammad(pbuh) to use my brain to understand, interpret and try to follow Gods commandments. Recognising that I am a sinner, I do not recognise your Messiha nor have the need to discover the coming one.
    You keep firm in your faith and let me please keep mine. I am hus a plain born sinner”"”"///
    well yes mr.rex, i donot get you at all, you keep jumping on from top to pit bottom in moments like a sinus curve, you keep chanaging statements, are you all right??
    first time you ask me,to suggest you some place which promotes joining all and not dividing all, i give you a reasonable explaination of why ahmadi community is in to joining all, my reasonable explaination makes you blank and you tell me my messiah will be dead and all of a sudden your orthodox side is all bubbling in your words, i dont understand your moderation, cause every moderate well read literate man i come across, doesnot believe in the promissed messiah yet he has the grace to give respect to him, thats how i always expected you to behave , but you are so dissapointing in the name of “”well read”".
    secondly if you dint get my, more muslim less muslim concept, you should agree there is a good muslim and a bad muslim even then i am no one to judge that, it,s only GOD who knows.a muslim who drinks alcohol is a bad “muslim” anyone can see that, a muslim gay is a bad muslim, but a steadfast pious philanthropist is a good “”muslim”" okay we should be clear on that.yet your above bitter words are jumping out of the screen and speaking loud and clear you are a selective reader, and a selective follower.the ahadith i quoted were for a well read man to understand what Muhammed (s.a.w) was commanding his ummat about, his language is easy, the souces are authentic and in direct compliance with Quran, hence a righteous Muslim will understand easily what he means in those sayings, a good muslim has no issues understanding it just like banning alcohol is, abstaining from
    fornication is the above ahadith are easily understandable.yo must have the civility as least accept that these are his words, you are not supposed to accept the messiah, but staying blind is not gonna do any favour to you!!

  24. HistoryBuff United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    Well, KC, I hope you will keep writing, then.

  25. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @kaalchakra,when you said
    /////****Rex
    I am sorry, I could not follow your entire discussion with our Ahmadi friends but hopefully you might have seen by now, at least partly, why so many Muslims view Ahmadism as they do. An Ahmadi is not only ‘more Muslim’ than you, unless you accept Mr Ahmad as a Prophet (which implies, accepting his views and ‘interpretations’ as being tinged with ALLAH’S DIRECT GRACE) you are not a Muslim at all. In effect, in rejecting Mr Ahmad, you are rejecting Allah.
    Although I have never claimed to be a Muslim, but simply logically, the above seems to be a very offensive stand to take against all Muslims – a point that I am not afraid to make – unfortunately much to the displeasure of all other non-Muslims who, understandably, would like to protect, promote and support Ahmadism////****

    i dont kno why, you ignorant man, you keep writing crappy opinions about, ahmadis without knowing any thing about ahmadism. just reading a few lines will not make you knowledgeable about ahmadis at all okay! Ahmadis are an opressed society of pakistan, because they have been rejected by parliamnet as muslims, okay even though it’s no business of parliament to budge its nose into matters of faith, yet because the maulvis of pakistan, were so afraid of rapid rate of spread of ahmadi islam that they made it sure , that the parliament declares them non muslims. do you kno why, maulvis were so afraid of ahmadi islam,well they were afraid because their inherited shrines and disciples and economically profittable businesses under the name of sufi orders will have to break okay. because if you dont know islam is not about temples and idols, its about believing with conviction on the one and only unseen, omnipotent GOD. and if you dont know mr,ignorant chakra, conjoining anyone with GOD is the greatest of all sin in islam, the unity of god is everything in islam,and supremacy of god is greatest than anything human like,idol shaped or grave of dead in shrine.therefore we have been trying our best to follow this purest form of islam in the best possible manner. Ahmadis are fullfilling all of their basic obligations as muslims yet they are not accepted as muslim in their home country, but yes you,ve got no issues with it, its good the government getting involved in faith of the hearts now. but you mr.freak are so hasty in passing pathetic judgements about what ahmadis are blah blah.
    firstly, Hazrat
    Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (a.s) was a prophet sent by god,he proved his prophethood with divine help.okay and when ALLAH had proved his prophethood as messiah, every human who got the message was supposed to follow him ,just like when ram chandra came in his nation as divine, all those in his nation were supposed to follow him, what do you call those among the nation of ram chandra who got his message saw him but still insisted on denying him as holy or divine?? what do you call those rebels mr.KC answer me using your brain????do you still insist them on calling good hindus, do you still believe they are faithful subordinates of hinduism????
    i dont know why, when youve never been a muslim, yet giving extremely devious logics about muslims and islam are you seriously qualified for that, even partially, do you know unlike your innumerable GODS we have only one, undefinable into any humnaly physical or spritual shape? how can a devout hindu like you pass judgements about muslims and islam? how absurd is this idea sounding? do we ever go to hindus for knowing how islamic a family is? a family that drinks is totally normal for a hindu but totally unacceptable for a muslim, can a hindu tell about muslim no he CANNOT??? you sound extremely offensive to me now, i can listen to whatever mr.rex says because we both are on the same page called ISLAM, we both believe in holy prophet MUHAMMED(s.aw),he doesnt believe in the promissed messiah yet he is a practicing muslim and so am i, we both know what we are talking about,what is your business here is completely non understandable.
    i am trying to bridge a difference with mr.rex, but you are fuelling the fire between us here is completely not understandable! whats your purpose with creating this disharmony ? what are you trying to do? are you afraid of ahmadis, islam or unity in islam??and why are you so afraid? why are you being so uncomfortable, when you dont even realise the complicated situation this is between ahmadi muslim and non ahmadi “MUSLIM”, we accept every muslim as muslim , because its between GOD and them, but the muslim community doesnnot seem to accept us muslims?? is it very reasonable to you K.c???
    p.s what are you trying to imply, with your false knowledge.

  26. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @k.c,
    ///***So we now have Pakistanis sitting in Karachi and Islamabad trying to rename schools in far away places after Ms Malala, and you witness the spectacle of local girls in Islamic attire protesting this imposition///**.
    again painting this story in your colour , will not change its face, the girls are protesting because they are concerned about their security! yes there are militants in pakistan, and they are against malala , and girls of the school are afraid of those extremists , not rejecting malala, they are rejecting militant attacks??isnt, that their human right to enforce more security measures for staying safe ??whats so funny about that???even if they are in islamic attire they have every right to protect themselves from terrorist attacks!no where in the article are they protesting against Malala!!whats wrong with you, conspiracy factory?

  27. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mahee,
    I do not mean to be rude, but your first mistake was to address me, a European, about your Ahmedi leader, which I have no doubt was a learned individual and a very fine person otherwise people like you and those before you would not revere him, without having the faintest idea about me. Your second mistake is to question the motives of KC, whom I consider an enlightened person who freely crosses over the faith barrier and stays within the cosmic circle of truth. This is very rare.

    You are a political person and politics has no place in religion of Islam since it generates a chemical reaction. India subcontinent has a hisory of caste system, hence so many muslim groups from Ahmedi to Deobandi, wahabi, salfists and not to ignore shias and sunnis. Perhaps these groups should meet in a neutral place to become a single group instead of going separate ways.

    Your leader was not a bright guy otherwise he should have joined resistance against the Inglez which the then Indian citizens undertook. Throughout muslim history unlike christian priests, Bishops and cardinals, the muslim preachers were upfront in the first row to combat the infidel enemy forces. Love for all and hatered for none is the slogan of Buddhists and lamas who then attack the enemy from behind as the Buddhists do! A sikh or a hindu or a lama in orange dress would not even shake hand with others which is the universal sign to show the other that one has no weapon in hand. You people are the victims of the thousand years of caste system which is now spread among muslms as well. The certification by Pakistan parliament is a limit. The requisite for the Islamic country is to protect its citizens, not showing respect or recogition of the aspirations of non-muslims, is not a vitue nor does it encourage muslimness of others. When the official curriculam of the school includes a “hate campaign against non-muslim students” in the school, then the Govt. is deliberately encouraging radicalism and zero tolerence. For all practical purpose It is a dysfunctional State. Like headless chickens its citizens are running around to influence the military to remove the Zardari Bhutto clan, who have several times in Pakistan history have been forcefully degraded from the office by the Generals. How on earth can a country rid itself of calamities if Zardari Bhutto cotinue to function? But ths is another topic for Saad Hafiz.

    Rex Minor

    PS I regularly get visits from christian preachers, and after a period one is replaced by another an when I enquire about the guys absece, they tell me either the guy has died or converted to Islam. This is not meant as a fib but to tell you why I do not let anyone near me simply for his protection.

  28. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Abbas Haider,

    No country or people can match the crimes Americans commit every single day. Its jails are overfilled and the Nations third biggest employer is the Prison establishment. What did people expect from the afroam when they voted for him?

    Rex Minor

  29. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    rex”"”
    ////PS I regularly get visits from christian preachers, and after a period one is replaced by another an when I enquire about the guys absece, they tell me either the guy has died or converted to Islam. This is not meant as a fib but to tell you why I do not let anyone near me simply for his protection////***
    too bad im already, proudly a very pious muslim, but yes may GOD be my witness on the day of judgement, and secondly im alive and breathing right now! converting christian preachers is a not a very big thing, considering what altered and illogical state their religion is in! Quran is simply the answer to transformed soiled christianity no doubt in that, so whatever you are doing we are doing the same, we have long list of converted christians and we also have a long list of dead christian preachers as well as islamic maulvis as well as hindu priest too who challenged Mirza sahab in the religious duel and died they got their answers in compliance with the conditions they laid , mostly died before mirza sahab as per the rule of duels that the wrong one would die in the life time of the right one, so yes “”UNIMAGINABLE irony right”"!should i send you the list? would you like to see how many lost their lives rejecting ahmaddiyyat, while ahmaddiyyat flourished.
    and, whatever feelings you have for k.c, kindly dont share, because i m sorry but im unable to respect your feelings you are not worthy of that nor is k.c.
    his biggotted words about ahmadis are so disgusting , he doesnt even no shit about ahmadis or islam. the fundamental principle for passing judgemental remarks on something is to have basic knowledge of that thing. he is a bigotted orthodox hindu, and nothing else, and he must stay in the cosmic circle of truth related to that not cross into other circles beyond his reach or grasp. and if he has to he must expand his reach and grasp first. i would like to say the same for you, i have already defeated your best friend akb, and i thiink if kaal chakra continued this biggotted approach, i will catch him in a matter of days too.dont worry truth will triumph, and biggottry will die.

  30. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    rex, i told you were a narcissist and i realise how right i was, wanna see how a narcissist talk,
    “”" why I do not let anyone near me simply for his protection”"”

    p.s “”im a muslim,its against my pride to be afraid of anyone or give death curses to some one because im afraid of just one GOD, no human, no demon”"
    “”LA HAULA WALA KUWATA ILLAH BILLAH”"

  31. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mahee,
    O’h I am not a preacher. No christian has converted on account of me; I have a clean record. I wish them to stay put and be happy the way they are and I wish you the same, Be happy and this is very important.

    It matters not what your opinion of others is? I use my jugement about the people not only the way they are but their potential and the future which I can see more clearly than others can. I have have never read anything from KC which is objectionable.If I were you, I would keep cool and stay away from AKB as well. Do not forget your blood pressure.
    Let people be free to have their opinions.

    Rex Minor

  32. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    rex minor, as usual youve, jumped from outright extremist views on the top of the curve to pit low peace again”" dint i tell you this before sinus curve completely reflect the tone in your view , up and down , up and down, i dont get it.. but any ways whatever have fun stay happy..

  33. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Dear Mahee

    I really do not wish to be the cause of any personal anguish to you. As a desperate measure, will it help if I advised you as a senior Ahmadi might. Hope it helps.

    Mahee, Rex follows a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Islam through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So Rex is living in sin. He is headed to jahannam.

    I follow a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Hinduism through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So I am living in sin. I am headed to an even worse place.

    Sufis follow a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Islam through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So sufis are living in sin. They are headed to the worst place reserved for those who engage in shirk on this earth.

    Except as a good human being, you need not lose sleep over what we say or write. We are headed to hell anyway. You have done your part – warned us, now let us all say and write what we will, while you just take it easy and relax. So long as you continue to offer complete obedience to your Khallifa in all ‘right matters’, keep sending your monthly chanda to him, you can look forward to the joys that await you uniquely in the world hereafter.

    I really hope that sense of heightened anticipation would calms your nerves down.

    Best regards.

  34. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    The division of India into two states was in itself the Victory of religious control!! Stop!

  35. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ kaalchakra

    well said, kc. I hope mahee will make a mental note of your good advice.
    .
    C ya in the eternal abyss of hell!!

  36. HistoryBuff United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    Kaalchakra, the greatest pleasure vouchsafed to the true believer in the only True Religion, during his/her lifetime, is that of berating everyone else, in self-assured superiority of his/her greater virtue and likelihood for a better afterlife.

    How can you cruelly try to deny him/her of this joy granted by The True Allah?

  37. NDelhi Singapore Internet Explorer Windows says:

    AKB writes ” C ya in the eternal abyss of hell!!”
    You are sure you’ll join mahee there and enjoy together or is their a window in heaven to watch the abyss of hell..

  38. NDelhi Singapore Internet Explorer Windows says:

    KC your post to mahee at 2.28am

    Does the same logic not applies to the religion of 7th century muhammed of arabia?
    Our friend Mirza ghulam ahemad only tried to fit into a provision left open by an old charltan for future charltan?

  39. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:1AM GMT
    56 9 Share | Email | Print
    In a Britain beset with Islamophobia, Muslims in the city of Blackburn have launched an initiative to gather donations to help the city’s food bank feed those in desperate need.

    The food-gathering planned for Friday December 14 will be centered on Islamic schools and mosques in Blackburn and is part of a long-standing and regular fund-raising scheme to feed hungry people.

    The organizers have asked residents to donate “non-perishable” food stuffs at designated schools and mosques on Friday in a bid to help struggling families across the borough.

    Blackburn councilor Salim Sidat says one in five people are living below the poverty line in the city, where the British government’s 2001 census showed 105,085 people live.

    “This is an issue that affects many people across Blackburn and this is the time to show good relations between both white and Asian communities,” Sidat said.

    “Muslims are being born and bred here and we shouldn’t have any divisions, we should look at everyone’s needs and address them accordingly,” he added.

    This comes as Britain’s 2.5 million Muslims face widespread discrimination and Islamophobic sentiments including by officials, especially after the 7/7 attacks in 2005.

    A poll by the Financial Times showed back in August 2007 that Britons are the most suspicious about Muslims in Europe and the United States

    Also back in October 2012, the Stop the War Coalition launched a series of protest actions to raise “awareness” about the “prevalent” Islamophobia in Britain and across Europe.

    “Islamophobia or anti-Muslim hatred is reaching worrying heights in Britain and across Europe. This ugly phenomena gained currency in part due to the popular thesis … about an impending clash of civilization between Islam and the West,” the group said.

    “Islamophobia prejudice is prevalent in the mainstream; on display in political life, in the media and in the attitudes of the police and the courts,” it added

  40. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    KC,
    Only you have the talent to articulate what others merely think. If Mahee succeeds, who knows one day there will be a shangrila with Ahmedi majority and will become the 2nd Khalifa state after Iran. I mean this seriously; there is more than one way to Rome.

    Rex Minor

  41. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Tajender,

    We are plain humans and as humans are sinners as well. We discriminate aginst others on a daily basis. We have likes and dislikes and dislikes feel discriminated. What is special about muslims being discriminated; you reckon the Brits love everyone else other than muslims? They definitely do not love the French nor Germans and efinitely either Irish or the scots? Yes, they love their Queen an that is about all not even the husband of the Queen. Have a nic ay.

    Rex Minor

  42. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Well said , Rex!

  43. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Indian Muslim are becoming more and more kaffirri by the day –

    http://youtu.be/0ejpJAu_Ans

  44. mahee Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    @mr. KAAL chakra,

    “”****I really do not wish to be the cause of any personal anguish to you. As a desperate measure, will it help if I advised you as a senior Ahmadi might. Hope it helps.”"”"**

    anything you say against ahmadiyyat is personnel,im sorry!you definately sound very desperate here, otherwise how could you relate yourself with a senior of the same ahmadis you never hesitate from talking shit about, the same ahmadi you loathe. what happened to you now you act like senior ahmadi, what happened to you , why are you so frustrated, did anything i said made you like that, well i m sorry in that case.Hope it helps.

    ***”"”Mahee, Rex follows a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Islam through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So Rex is living in sin. He is headed to jahannam.”"***
    well, k.c , i dont think any human has the power to judge whose going where , atleast not us muslim. but i dont know since you said that, are you the god now? should i take your picture and start worshipping you or at least let others of your religion know about this, they might be missing the oppurtunity of worshipping this new God who has arrived in there alive religion. please share your picture if this is the case.thanks to you i was worried amitabh bachan is going to be worshipped in india for a very long time , but you solved it for me.

    “”"**I follow a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Hinduism through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So I am living in sin. I am headed to an even worse place”"**

    whatever you are following is between you and your GOds, im no one to judge your faith.again
    Mirza Ghulam (a.s0 or me or anyone donot know who is going where?? im the one who speaks for the messiah, im the one who spreads enlightenment, im the one who shares divine wisdom.im the one who wishes good for you and all others.

    “”"****Sufis follow a dead religion. The True Allah whom you follow revived True Islam through Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah & Mahdi. So sufis are living in sin. They are headed to the worst place reserved for those who engage in shirk on this earth.”"”****
    there is no sufi , no mujadid, no hindu prophet, no baba nanak we dont give respect to. we have the highest level of respect for all the sufis, all the saints, all the holy founders of all the religions , and thats what we,ve been screaming on the highest of ourr voices here,Whats your problem with that? whats actually wrong with with giving respect to all, spreading **PEACE** huh!!our motto is that
    your problem??if their followers have taken their teachings in the wrong direction, and started worshipping them instead of one GOD who sent them , then its not at all their sins.but the sins are on their mislead followers.
    “”"***Except as a good human being, you need not lose sleep over what we say or write. We are headed to hell anyway. You have done your part – warned us, now let us all say and write what we will, while you just take it easy and relax.”"”****
    you nailed this part, cause im actually having the best sleep ever. i sleep like a baby, and the entire night even day i feel divine blessings on me.but even then im no one to judge even my ownself, i really have no idea where im going it might be hell, it might be heaven. i strive everyday for the right path and will keep sriving thats what “”jihad”" means literally to strive and to struggle, and whatever i struggle for i share with others thats my generous nature, but still the day i sit and relax will be the last day of the faithful life im struggling for to please ALLAH. the day my eyes and ears and head will stop working, the day world will not need me, and the day GOD will not be pleased with me.

    “”***So long as you continue to offer complete obedience to your Khallifa in all ‘right matters’, keep sending your monthly chanda to him, you can look forward to the joys that await you uniquely in the world hereafter.
    I really hope that sense of heightened anticipation would calms your nerves down.”"”*****

    anything, or anyone speaking immorally can never heighten my nerves, it rather inspires me to strive more.neither my chanda, nor my khalifa can help me on the day of judgement, the sad part. only my struggle in the way of ALLAH is gonna count. Its ALLAH alone, that i want to please and my KHALIFA is someone who strongly persuades me towards GOD and righteous way, just like every man needs reminder im always indebted to my KHALIFA for reminding us time and again and discouraging us from sinful , dead and immoral life.

  45. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Tajender,

    I am in my car on road listenig to the music from car radio, the music is interrupted by the breaking news , a bomb is left in a bag at a railway station, supposedly by two salafist/Islamist suspects which were seen on the video watch. I am now in the traffic jam, and after a laps of fifteen minutes hear the additional info about the two salafists being picked up by the police about fifty killometer away in a different city. I say Bravo! In the next fifteen minutes the news one hears that the salafists have been set free.

    Islamists are the suspects now and more details about the unexploded bomb which was not detonated. The search goes on and I am now in the super market to buy a few items. Later I return home and forget all about the breaking news. The next day the hunt is still on for the Islamists and the additional news that the bomb had been detonated by the unseen terrorists but did not explode!! Now it is two days old.

    How many of the people heard the news about the salafist/islamist and the bomb, I have no idea. Is this Islamophobia or fear, my view is that this is simply fear, a paranoia and a bit of bias and discrimination as well. As we return to normalcy and the media witnesses and reports on horrible crimes being committed by lunatics from people of other faiths such as the latest in connecticut, muslims will become the sweethearts of the world once again. What is wrong with people fearing muslims for a change though for a limited period?

    Rex Minor

  46. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Brutal killing of 27 including 20 small school students by an American terrorist dispels the impression that Muslims only are involved in terrorism. The world propaganda is evidently replete with bias and animosity against the Talibans and other freedom fighters because they happen to be Muslims. The growing incidents of home terrorism in the United States is a prima facie proof that Americans are losing their minds due to socio-economic stresses, suffer from depression and are inherently built for bullying the weaker for their greed and supremacy.
    How the West touted the Malala case seems too insignificant in the face of current tragedy in Connecticut and confirms how evil men could be regardless of religion they belong to!
    The liberals must learn a lesson from this and stop trumpeting odd happenings in Pakistan or Afghanistan as brutal acts of Muslims….killers and terrorists are found in all countries and among adherents of all faiths. Buddhist oppressing Muslim minorities are yet another case in hand!

  47. HistoryBuff United States Mozilla Firefox Mac OS says:

    AKB, hold on to your hat. The Talibans, and various Sunni militia are supported by elements of the Pakistani government. Which American supports the Connecticut killer?

  48. AKB Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ HistoryBuff

    Prove what you said ….just stop surmising and laying aspersions on others.
    US is the greatest promulgator of state terrorism…..
    .
    Talibans are alleged to be against education because they blow up schools which they think serve as sanctuaries for their enemies, viz the security agencies and their touts. It’s also alleged that Malala was allegedly shot
    by some Taliban because they are against education. Nonsense. If this could be said about the TAlibs the same unequivocally also applies to the American killer who shot dead 20 innocent school children aged 5-10 and 7 others. Was he also a Taliban?? No,,,but you shy away from calling the Americans as terrorists because the this killer as well as several previous ones who shooted to kill in American educational institutional were not Muslims. For the love of God stop all this self loathing propaganda against Muslims and Pakistan by passing over freedom fighters as terrorists. something that needs criticism are American foreign policy and bad governance it supports in Pakistan and elsewhere. Like coal, the policeman of the world, the US, smears the hands when cold, burns when hot. Reasonable for her to stick to his own limits and stop spreeing on worldwide aggression to subdue the weaker by lethal force only to capture their resources.

  49. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    AKB,
    Excellet piece.

    HB,
    No one in the world supports the con… man from America. But go to the greatest special prison on earth and this is located in US, where criminals are kept away from the real world. Did Obama protest publicly against the bombing of civilian houses of palestinian children in Gaza? No he did not, since he is said to personaly authorise each unmanned drone mission in Yemen and Pakistan. And who is responsible for the paranoia against muslims if not the C in C who has been waging wars both conventional as well as through use of CIA and third parties as well including cyber attacks.
    All options are on the table are the words, Mr Obama has used more often than any other President including the Bush clan. Yes all ptios are on the table for every American student as well. Being an ex community worker Mr Obama knows about the sick youth of the American society than any other individual. Has mr Obama personaly introduce any program for gun control or to educate the street boys who grow in the environament of street gangs? No, nada, I was hoping he would. No sir, he keeps reminding the people that he has knocked out the head of AQ and the enemies but does not realise that his radicalism breeds extremism in his own country. The boy of twenty even eliminated the school Psychologist. The rule of law instead of might is right, should be the policy of the Harvard Professor of the constitution!

    Rex Minor

  50. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    IF USA is evil, as proclaimed 24×7, why do Muslims world-vide line up before US Embassies/Consulates begging for a US Visa ?

    Yahood-Nasara-Hunood Are all Evil… But you beg to go (subsequently live and die)to a Yahood-Dominated Countgry, USA.

    Nasara: You dance to Indian Songs. Watch pirated Indian Movies. You have no intellectual ability to produce your own music/films. If films are haraam., and not to be produced., they shouldnt be watched either. Lekin chalta hai. Raat ko pee lena.. aur Subha ko towbah kar lena. Enjoy the drink.. and seek forgiveness next day. If that is the case., why not eat Pork. It tastes great. (Just like Fish).

    Hunood : Hunood are rocking. You keep cursing them (reason : ENVY). The Hunood were always TALENTED.. but they did not have political power. They waited for their term.. The Brits came and liberated India on their behalf. After a century or so., they handed it over to the HUNOOD. They have 72 Million Gods., but there is UNITY among them.

    Muslims have 1 God., 1 Prophet., 1 book : But all that unity couldnt produce unity of heart and mind. 2 Muslims cannot sit at a table for more than 20 mts.

    They must reflect.. and go for an inward introspection.. thru the innermost recesses of their heart.

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