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Pak Tea House » Democracy, Islam, Jinnah, Pakistan, south asia » What Thomas Friedman has wrong on Egypt, Pakistan and India

What Thomas Friedman has wrong on Egypt, Pakistan and India

By Yasser Latif Hamdani

Thomas Friedman’s latest piece deserves to be read by every Pakistani, not because it is accurate- there are several glaring mistakes in it- but because it shows pretty much how the world views us- a basket case anti-people state. The important thing that must be underscored is that if the world views it like this it is entirely our own fault.  We have made a horrible mess of things in Pakistan.  

Still for the sake of fairness, one must point out the glaring mistakes in Friedman’s article. Let us first state the facts, Pakistan is – with all its faults and mistakes- a country far ahead of Egypt on the democracy curve. There is no chance Egypt under Morsi is ever going to be Pakistan, let alone a stable secular democracy like India.  Besides Pakistan has had a Christian Chief Justice and several Non-Muslim Supreme Court justices, not that it matters one bit because despite that minorities in Pakistan are persecuted terribly.

Nor was Indian National Congress the epitome of inclusiveness and tolerance as Friedman likes to paint it. Had Congress been suitably inclusive, it would not have alienated a secular liberal Muslim like Jinnah or a Dalit leader like B R Ambedkar.  Indeed had Congress been willing to give the Muslims what Coptics in Egypt want, there would not have been a partition of British India.  Congress’ own token Muslim president Azad is on the record admitting that Congress did not live up to its own tall claims about inclusive national ideals.

But what Congress did right was get Ambedkar – who was a known opponent of the Congress- to write the constitution of India and the constitution he drafted as a result is arguably one of the finest constitutions in the world.  It must also be stated that any critical examination of the record of the big three of India’s freedom struggle, Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah will reveal that Jinnah stood head and shoulders above both Nehru and Gandhi when it came to practical steps taken to ensure civil liberties and religious freedom to Indians.  Jinnah’s legislative record speaks for itself.  However the difference was that while Gandhi and Nehru had an established political party behind them, Jinnah’s followers were politically immature, inexperienced and without any grasp of real issues.  While India embraced Ambedkar, Pakistan drove out J N Mandal, the scheduled caste Hindu leader appointed by Jinnah himself.  Too confused, too caught up in their own ego trips and insecurities, the Nishtars and Liaqat Alis failed Jinnah and his idea of Pakistan.

Pakistan it must be stated however was led by men who has been brought up in British tradition of law and parliamentary politics. Still they failed.  Pakistan is a federation with contending multiple identities at play and still the military dominated it in cahoots with local vested interests.  Egypt is being led by Syed Qutb’s followers. Syed Qutb’s equivalent in Pakistan Maududi and his party have never won widespread support in Pakistan.  Yet their threat alone has made Pakistan’s liberal leaders like Bhuttos take retrogressive and reactionary steps.  In Egypt the Qutbians lead and are being pressured by an even more extreme group i.e. the Salafis.  The real question is if Pakistan is going to go down the Egyptian route! The battle for the heart and soul of democracy in the Islamic world is not going to be fought in the Arab world.  The battle is right here in Pakistan and in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Turkey and in Iran.

The question should have been asked – Will Pakistan follow India or will it continue to look towards its Arab co-religionists?  If Pakistan becomes the Muslim majority version of India- as it was always meant to be- the whole region will benefit.  Unfortunately writers like Friedman are too obsessed with the Middle East to see, that Islam’s real battle lies outside the Middle East.

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100 Responses to "What Thomas Friedman has wrong on Egypt, Pakistan and India"

  1. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    YLH Bhai – Salaams. Please bear with me. I hope I don’t sound arrogant. Get rid of what Freidman thinks or doesn’t think. Why do you/I need a certification from XYZ ? Go deep within. Undertake an inward journey. I want you to visit the innermost recesses of your heart.

    If you have some rich friends… (who can spare something for the “macro”.. in other words who have enough of micro.. and can spare a little beyond that.. in the spill-over effect), I want you to go into the field of Education.. Since Law is your first love.. why don’t you start a Law College in Pakistan… in your village ?

    In India, you have to bribe officials from A-Z., even to DO CHARITY. Start your Law College in HUTS. Let people laugh. You must allow people to laugh. They laugh because they are inferior. Leave behind a legacy. There are no short-cuts.

    Articles wont help. Nor do novels (unless they are world-class). Literature has ceased to impact people. They are glued to the idiot box. Iqbal and Jinnah would have been failures in the world of Rakhi Sawants today.

    Go for institution building.. IF it were possible. Not to win accolades. Do this with detachment.

  2. yasserlatifhamdani Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    BJ Kumar,

    Here are the factS: No historian has ever accused Jinnah of being complicit in direct action day violence. Direct Action does not mean violence. Direct Action has always meant civil disobedience. Besides the record shows that Calcutta Killings were largely one-sided massacre of Muslims… so blaming the victims – that is just rich. You are a biased and incorrigible liar who doesn’t want to read the facts and the record for what it is. Therefore I cannot help you on that count.

    Let me put it plainly Gandhi caused partition. This is what the record shows and this is what established historians keep saying… for example read Perry Anderson’s latest book. Most historians have come to this conclusion.

    Your claim that a demand for Pakistan would not have come from Jinnah if he wanted the same thing is as stupid as the claims Mullahs make. How about this … if Jinnah wanted an Islamic state or a theocracy, every Islamo-fascist would not have supported Gandhi.

    I can’t go on with this. Why don’t you just abandon this site and go to Desi Buk Buk where you belong?

  3. yasserlatifhamdani Pakistan Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    BTW I am really sick of your spamming BJ so I’ll state a fact that you don’t wish to accept… unlike Gandhi, Jinnah believed in the equality of man regardless of religion or race etc.

    Mahatma Gandhi it must be remembered said that he was a Hindu first and therefore a true Indian and also that Black people were lesser human beings than other people.

  4. nosense United States Safari Mac OS says:

    So 600+ of muslim rule was not evidence
    enough for the hindus to know how
    to deal with muslims. No we have take the word of Jinnah the twit.

    Congress didn’t have to accommodate just like Muslim Brotherhood is not accommodating
    its opponents.

    Congress main position was to have independence then we deal with issues of minority.
    Jinnah wanted absolute guarantees and he wanted to be a soldier of the The Great Game.
    That is what Pakistan turned out to be. An Army that sold itself to the highest bidder.

    More Arabization please so we don’t have to listen to pakistanis whine incessantly
    over no body followed jinnah’s vision. woh is me. What even happen to God’s will
    and other such nonsense.

  5. tajender United Arab Emirates Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    nosense

    non sense u are are an absolute and real nonsense.600 years of muslim rule was golden period of indian history.roads building cities were built by muslim rulers.india had gdp 25%of world gdp and literacy was 93%.there was complete communal harmony.shudras were given good posts in armed forces.everybody was equal before law.education was free and state was obliged to pay even for books and copies.

    britishers called muslim india as sone kee chidia.

    in 65 years u destroyed indianness of indian.
    in vedic period doors of education were closed to nonbrhmns for 3000 years .justice was according to caste not crime.even swarsati is jahil.it is because of muslim rule india was better than its neighbour.see nepal,lone hindu kingom of world.

  6. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    YLH : YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. CAN YOU DOCUMENT IT WITH COLD PRECISION. DEVELOP THE THOUGHT ON THESE LINES.

    GANDHIJI : IF HE CALLS for civil-disobedience., non-violent non-cooperation (its like a virginal rape)., it is peaceful (even though it resulted in deaths.. like for instance Chauri Chaura… he goes into silence.. repents.. FASTS..) AND ALL IS FORGIVEN. AAL IZZ WELL. BECAUSE HE REPRESENTS 75% (NO MATTER HOW FRAGMENTED THAT BLOC).

    JINNAH : ONCE in his lifetime.. calls for “Direct Action Day” in Kolkata. Novels have been written – Movies made. So he planned to kill all Hindus of KOlkata., and convert it overnight into a Muslim Majority City ! Woaw !!

    (So Jinnah was the Narendra Modi of 1946, eh ?). But even if we take that argument as is… the casualties of Direct Action Day Kolkata prove the opposite. 75% of casualties were Muslim.

    IT IS BECAUSE : RSS WAS ACTIVE IN KOLKATA. EVERY HINDU HOME WAS ARMED. THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. Muslims in Bengal (united) were poor.. peasants. Zamindars / Landed gentry was Hindu (Bhadralok).

    THIS IS THE STORY. Jinnah had no right to protest.. because he represented 25%. So he was supposed to behave.. be silent.. like the Muslims of Gujarat under Narendra Modi today.

    There is peace in Gujarat today… because Narendra Modi… broke the will of the Muslims… They do not protest.. they have accepted their fate. Gandhiji wanted Muslims to do exactly that.. Muslims of pre-partition India protested.

    THEY PAID A PRICE FOR THEIR EGO. LOSS OF LIFE. PROPERTY. PROSPERITY. THE ENTIRE ELITE OF MUSLIM INDIA WAS WIPED OFF. MUSLIMS FELL INTO THE BANIA TRAP BECAUSE : THEY DID NOT STUDY SOCIOLOGY AND HUMAN ANTHROPOLOGY.

    VISION WAS NAIVE. ANA-AL-MALIK.. BYJ’S ROMANTIC SPEECHES.. MS. JINNAH’S ASSERTION : ‘LET US HAVE A STATE FIRST.. AND AAL IZZ WELL’.. WAS NAIVE. IM-PROPERLY THOUGHT.

    KHEER THANDI KHAAYI JAATI HAI. Muslim kheer paki hee nahin thee. 200 yrs agar education par dhyaan detey (as advised by Sir Syed).. to scene kuch aur hota.. Jaldi bahut thee Musalmaanon ko… to evict the Brits.. and re-create the Mughal Darbar-e-Aam.. USI SE KHARAAB HUA MAAMELA.

    Muslims : should have accepted HINDI as a national language and moved on. Lekin URDU Culture.. ISLAM.. khatrey mein tha ! (with 25% pop).

    Urdu exists in India (and after 200 yrs, may as well thrive). Muslim culture is dead.. both in India and Pakistan. Its western culture thats rocking.

    It was a loss deal for Muslims.. it was a very dangerous Marwari TRAP. The marwaris did the dirty job.. on the Direct Action Day.. to stain Jinnah’s spotless reputation.

  7. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Drone

    I do think you have thrown in the towel too quickly. It should take just a few good Muslim men of faith to turn the tide. If you organize the revolt from the South, Tajender comes in from the East, and a few sturdy Afghans respond to your letters from North West, you can have it all back with a few short weeks.

    Even if we don’t exert ourselves so, here is another reason why we need not regret that Jinnah acted too soon. Could Allah have a two-step divine plan for the subcontinent? In the first phase He removes non-Muslims from Muslim majority areas so a real base of Islamic power comes to exist. Then, in the second phase, using its powers, its tools like PTH, and thoughtful and redoubtable “Indian” believers like you, He overwhelms Hindus in the rest of the land over time!

    There are many ways to skin the Hindu cat yet, Drone. But you have to keep faith. Sometimes, in your understandable – and quite admirable – desperation, you cast your nets too widely – even giving away Pakistan to China! Best.

  8. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    COMMUNITY COLLEGES ! ALL ARE WELCOME. EDUCATION + SKILL + EMPLOYMENT.

    DWAAR PE ROZI / DARWAAZE PAR ROZI.

    Popularise concept of community colleges in each district
    Krishna Dhir, a management professor points to a construction site on the campus. “You see, all those working here are our students. No paid employees,” he says. The ‘students’, whose age ranges from 16 to 70, are doing everything that goes into the making of a college building. Digging, preparing concrete mixtures, plumbing, carpentry, wiring and interior decoration are all being done by students who were trained in those crafts !!!.
    The 27,000-acre campus, the world’s largest, has over 2,100 students in around 100 vocational trades. Martha Berry, who wanted to impart first-hand training of the “Head, Heart and Hands” to students, founded the college in 1902. There is no upper age limit for students. They attend theory classes for three days a week and get training for the next three. Many students are married or between jobs. There are even the adventurous kind — successful professionals who want to unlearn their craft and explore completely new career opportunities. A water mill built by Berry students across a stream on the campus has become an icon of vocational education in the U.S.
    Berry is considered a pioneering community college that provides a wide spectrum of education that ranges from accounting and animal science to women’s studies and writing.
    The success of such institutions across the world in providing vocational education, reducing dropouts and in establishing industry-institution partnerships has influenced Indian Government to promote community colleges. The Planning Commission is trying to popularise the concept and is asking the States to set up at least one community college in each district. It is also goading the States to explore introducing vocational skills
    Most of the community colleges are in south India, with Tamil Nadu accounting for a fourth of them. The study that covered over 1,000 students in 30 colleges found that the colleges run by communities, in collaboration with local industries, had provided gainful employment to men and women or made them self-employable. This was achieved through courses that were a few weeks or a few months long. The students had also benefitted from the teaching of life skills, communication skills and English.
    A statistical analysis revealed that the concept had served the target groups. Women formed 70 per cent of the students; Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and other backward classes added up to 92 per cent; and those from the economically backward section, 78 per cent.
    Since there is no age bar on entry, the age of students range between 17 and 47. A large portion of the students were dropouts and some had been out of school for 19 years. The placement rate was 83 per cent. A small percentage of men had started their own enterprises.
    Training covered 20 trades such as electrical and electronic gadget servicing, computer hardware and networking, kindergarten teaching and day care, nursing care, office management, photography and videography, printing, catering services, bakery and confectionary, and welding.
    Financial aid
    A proposal paper by the Union Government released in August this year offers financial aid of up to 80 per cent to States planning to open community colleges and affiliation by the Union Human Resource Ministry.
    The proposal also asks States to introduce vocational courses in secondary school for those who have passed eighth standard, or those who failed in 10th standard or who were dropouts.
    The Karnataka Government is seriously considering the Centre’s suggestion, says Vishweshwara Hegde Kageri, Minister for Primary and Secondary Education. “Introducing vocational education at both secondary school and college levels is a good idea,” he said. “That will help reduce the dropout rate, create incentives for completing school education and help dropouts come back to school. It will also help young people get jobs without needing to undergo training in long-term courses.” Such a system of teaching life skills in secondary schools was prevalent in the 1950s and 60s. It had its definite benefits. The present system is an improvement on that, the Minister said.
    Flexible
    The Karnataka State Higher Education Council has also favoured the idea. In its Vision 2020 document, it has recommended the starting of new community colleges or starting vocational courses with flexible entry and exit systems in existing colleges.
    The Higher Education department has already identified 11 polytechnics and first grade colleges for introducing vocational courses. The State Government is also in talks with some corporate companies to allow students to work in their factories or companies or pay stipends to students. These colleges are expected to admit students from the next academic year.
    Officials of the Education Department say that implementation of the idea is not easy at the level of secondary education. “We will need to restructure the colleges to include a totally different teaching-learning method, hire more teachers, create labs and tie up with communities. We may also need specialised guest lecturers. All this may take some time. But we will do it, even if it is implemented in phases,” a senior officer said.
    It is a welcome move, says Syed Tanveer, media cell in-charge of the Jamaat-E-Islami Hind. “We were planning something similar for poor Muslim children. We circulated a concept paper among entrepreneurs and donors in the community and had begun consultations. We are happy that the Government is thinking on similar lines.”

  9. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    The land which is called the cradle of human civilisation, and where the Ibrahimic faith was born is in the premier leaague to establish aan Islamic State which is democratic, and guarantees freedom and justice for all men and women despite their different personal faiths.

    There is no doubt as the Prime Minister of Egypt admits on CNN, the implementation of this mission is not going to be easy. Mr Morsi has a task, a great task and his Phd in Egineering is going to facilitate his task but we should not underestimate the machiavillean cunningness of El Baradai, the child from the family of the High Priest of Pharaoh and Abu Musa, the illegitimate child of the house of the Egyptians royals. It was Baradai who facilitated the Iraq war by not giving a clearance on Iraq nuclear capability and it was Abu Musa, the right hand man of Mubarak who as General Secretary of the Arab League prevented sanctions against the USA.

    Rex Minor

    PS Pakistan under the leadership of Mr Jinnah had the opportunity to lead the world of Islam! Not any longer, Islam has no room for a second chance. Egypt is the next Power Centre for Islam, after the fall of Ottomans. Turkish current rulers have made the same mistake that of their forefathers. There can not be an Isalm without the arabic Islam.

  10. [...] Pakistani blogger takes issue with Friedman’s generalizations, but sees little hope that Egypt now will ever be as free as [...]

  11. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Pardon my language but Thomas Friedman is an Arsch ho, as we call the zionist actors and so is his friend Zakari another Zinoist but with an arab name from India. Let Thomas tell us about Israel democracy and the protection of the minority rights in Israel constitution and let the Indians hindus, muslims and christian tell us if the so called Indian constitution has any practical influence on the life of Indian citizens. It is important to know the views of Indians about India and not the American zionist who owes his loyalty to zionism. Thomas could tell us based on his experience and analysis how the western media is in the hands of the minority jewish community as well as the State department which todate takes direction from Henry Kissinger, who once said that the USA should not have supported the creation of Pakistan.

    There is no such animal as minority and majority in a democracy and ot in Islam as well; all citizen must have equal rights without any discrimination or restriction on account of…..! There is no intent on the part of the Muslim Brotherhod to treat coptic christians at least for the present, as minorities? There was no discrimination in Iraq under Saddam Hussain, his vice was a christian and there is no discrimination in Jordan whose foreign minister is of a jewish faith. Israel wants its arab neighbours to accept Israel as a jewish state, its arab population with minority rights and the occupied country as a demilitarised zone sorrounded by walls and wired barricades. Nathan the yahood, wants a Palistinian partner to negotiate the terms of the minority.

    It was wrong of the current Pakistan Govt. to introduce positive discrimination favouring non-muslims minority following Indian policy simply as a theatrical act, while in the same vein conducting a hate campaign in the schools against non muslims. There is no reason why a coptic christian can not be made a military chief and there should not be any reason why a non muslim should not be the head of the Pakisan Govt. if he or she are born in Pakistan.

    Rex Minor

  12. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Drona,
    Project funding is not a major hurdle; Imran Khan has the expertise. The development of the project is more complex and requires the think through process. There are many who will be willing to contribute if the the school has the arabic name of ‘Sharia’ in place of Law and is linked with Al Azhar University?

    Rex Minor

  13. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Drona,

    Bharaty comments which Google turned them into German are amazing! This guy knows a lot and is pissed off as well. I hope that YLH or AKB does ot respond, though strange that he did not mention his buddy Thomas! Nor did he care to talk about your proposals.

    Rex Minor

  14. Paktea United States Safari Mac OS says:

    B. R. Ambedkar rightly gets credit for drafting the Indian constitution, but that does not mean that he was the sole author of the constitution. Different parts of the constitution were drafted by different committees of the Constituent Assembly. For instance, the sections related to Fundamental Rights were substantially written by the committee on fundamental rights, minorities, tribal and excluded areas chaired by Sardar Patel. And there were separate subcommittees on fundamental rights (chaired by Acharya Kripalani) and minorities (H.C.Mookerjee). Jawaharlal Nehru also played a huge role in the shape the Constitution finally took. Finally, there were extensive, and in many cases contentious debates section by section, and the Constituent Assembly, dominated by the Congress voted for the Constitution. As much credit, if not more should go to them, as Ambedkar could hardly have got anything passed without broad support from the members of the Congress, and indeed its leadership.

    Here is where there is a fundamental difference between the situations in India and Pakistan. Even if J. N. Mandal had stayed on as Law Minister of Pakistan, he could hardly have influenced the course of Constitution making in Pakistan, because the mass of the Muslim League was not liberal. Indeed, the reason he left Pakistan is precisely that he did not believe that it would give minorities a fair deal. Even Jinnah’s lieutenants, the prime one being Liaquat showed that they were either illiberal themselves, or unwilling to stand up to the illiberal elements within their organization and outside.

    Thus, the key point of Friedman is sound. I did not take away from his article the claim that everything was perfect in India or that the Congress was the perfect embodiment of liberal, inclusive politics. But the fact remains that the Congress was the most inclusive of all the major political organizations that had any significant presence at that time. It had elements of all kinds, as a national movement naturally would, and made some critical mistakes that alienated large sections of the population for at least short periods of time. But its DNA was that of an umbrella organization, that had liberal and secular democracy as its aim. It might have failed to varying degrees in realizing this aim. But the aim was always there. And post independence, it was Congress and its leadership that delivered a liberal secular democracy to India. 60+ years of sustained democracy only strengthened that idea, despite relatively frequent setbacks.

    While Pakistan is farther along than Egypt in terms of the development of the facade of democracy and its institutions, Egypt may be farther along on some other dimensions, notably the presence of a significant number of people willing to stand up for liberal democracy. Also, the 10% Christian minority in Egypt is much bigger than that in Pakistan and that affects the nature of the discourse as well. Finally, there is an educated populace in Egypt, and while that is no guarantee that it will choose a liberal path, at least there is the potential for a more informed, and wider national discourse.

  15. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    What is a democracy should be the question for Paktea to define first and then try to grade the Indian and other democracies in the world including that of the USA, Israel and India.

    The majority in the USA, Israel and India has suppressed the indigenous minorities to a below human status and the three have the bloody cheek to talk about democracy. Let us please not use the word democracy for countries which have neither invented nor experienced in a country where the dignity of the individual is not violable.

    Rex Minor

  16. HistoryBuff United States Safari iPad says:

    Pakteahouse upholds the dignity of the individual, and should therefore democratically decide what democracy is.

  17. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    HB,
    One does not decide democraticaly what democracy is? Israel is not a democracy but a country which practices apartheid, illegal cofiscation of land for european settlers and has deprived millions indigenous people of the land who are scattered around in refugee camps and are now living in inhuman conditions under occupation. Indian military occupies Kashmir by sheer force; to call it a democracy is a farce. Who are we kidding, let us atleast be honest in academic discussions. As long as the jewish people enjoy a privileaged status in a country, for Thomas Friedman, Senator Lieberman and Senator Finestein it is a democracy in the USA, UK and European countries.

    Rex Minor

    PS The world will live to see the first Islamic state in Egypt which is destined to be a democracy which will guarantee equal rights for all its citizens.

  18. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Bhartty,
    you have lost two AA’s in your name. I thought most recently one of Ganndhi Baba’s friend wrote that the guy was a sex maniac, a debaucher and did not even spare his ow daughter in law. This is not democracy but pure Hiduism, which the non hidus would not have accepte. Good thing what happened to him, a real Dharma!

    Rex Minor

  19. Hayyer India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    “The question should have been asked – Will Pakistan follow India or will it continue to look towards its Arab co-religionists? If Pakistan becomes the Muslim majority version of India- as it was always meant to be- the whole region will benefit. Unfortunately writers like Friedman are too obsessed with the Middle East to see, that Islam’s real battle lies outside the Middle East.”
    That is the nub. Is a Muslim majority version of India possible? That begs the question. Is India a Hindu majority version of itself? Or to put it more simply, is India the way it is because it is Hindu majority, or is it the way it is because most of its leaders were educated in the western liberal tradition and only happened to be Hindu by birth. In both cases the answer is not encouraging for Pakistan as YLH has acknowledged in his article when he says that “Pakistan it must be stated however was led by men who has been brought up in British tradition of law and parliamentary politics. Still they failed.”
    Why did they fail. If a liberal secular Pakistan was contingent upon the survival of one man alone who knew his days were limited anyway one has to ask why he was so adamant upon his scheme playing out his way and in no other way. (The CMP we will exclude from the argument because it was not the only alternative).
    The other argument, that it is in the DNA is too dismal to contemplate.

    Pakistan is a federation with contending multiple identities at play and still the military dominated it in cahoots with local vested interests.

  20. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Bharatiy: a new addition ! Who intends to turn this forum into a gutter. To answer to his cheap post is an outrage. Ignore and move on.

    Well.. Rex.. Kaal.. YLH.. (Fingolfin has left.. and rightly so).. : I dont get moved by garbage.

    How about some talk of a C.A. Academy ! Accountants are the most well paid profession today ! A C.A. earns twice than that of a Doctor ! So how many Muslim boys/girls are doing C. A. ? Can I have the statistics, please.. C.A. (CPA in American jargon), I.C.W.A., Cost Accountancy., Mgmt. Accountancy ?

    MBA –

    Start-ups ? How many muslim boys/girls are going for Start-ups.. Entreprenuership.. Nurturing.. Hand-holding Angel support system (?).. Venture Capitalism ? Whats happenning on that front ?

    Sciences.. Math.. Creative Thinking.. Kya ho raha hai ?

    Saa Vidyaa Vimuktayey.. (True Knowledge that liberates you.. and sets you thinking.. takes you to the Lab.. and to Entreprenuership !).

    What about Industry (Manufacturing). For this… a 24×7.. un-interrupted Power Supply is VITAL. Otherwise how would you run an Industry ? you have to pay the labour… who sit without work.. as there is no Electricity !

    There is no infrastructure ! Roads.. Electricity.. Drainage.. Potable Water Supply.. SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE.. (To feed us.. otherwise what will we eat ? Grain-Self-sufficiency IS THE FIRST ITEM TO ADDRESS).

    But the above topics (which I love)., are BORING, eh ?

    SO.. lets switch to theology.. abuse.. and of course CRICKET ! Us mein mazaa hai.. Instant gratification hai.

  21. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    HAYYER wrote very well.. “Why did they fail. If a liberal secular Pakistan was contingent upon the survival of one man alone who knew his days were limited anyway one has to ask why he was so adamant upon his scheme playing out his way and in no other way. (The CMP we will exclude)”…

    They failed because GROUND WORK was not yet done. Kheer thandi khaayi jaati hai. Inhoney pateeli khaana pakne se pehle.. choolhey se utaar lee. Isi liye.. yeh sab hua.

    Sir Syed had advised : 200 yrs.. Concentrate on JUST PLAIN SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION. But Mohamed Ali Jauhar.. couldnt wait 25 years after his death. Jaldi bahut thee. Mughal Durbar ko re-create karne kee CHAAH.. AUR AARZOO. (Albeit on a smaller / miniature scale). Pakistan was thought of with the heart., not the head.

    It will destruct itself. There is no other way. I do NOT wish it bad., but it will NOT work. The only way is : what Jus. Markandey Katju has so sincerely said. There will be casualties in that option.. but it will be minimal.

    India must take over Pak and BD.. in a swift operation.. and save the AAM AADMI of India-Pak-BD.. from the clutches of right-wing criminals of the 3 parts. THat is the only way. Otherwise the RSS criminal will crush the Ordinary AAM Hindu.. rape his daughter.. steal his belongings.. the same goes for their counterparts in Pak and BD. India does not have SUCH A STRONG LEADERSHIP to bring together these 3 and make it 1. AKHAND BHARAT is not a loss for any one. The real criminal is FEAR. Muslims fear, Hindu culture would swallow them (is Islam so weak ?). Hindus fear that Muslims would over-power them and kill them (they did not eliminate Hinduism in 700 yrs of solid rule.. so why would they do now ?).. Once you remove the fear.. and start a RECONCILIATION PROCESS.. it is ONLY then., that peace will prevail in the USI (United States of India).

    Then corruption will come down.
    Then bigots (of all persuasion) would be contained and side-lined (marginalised).

    The secular space would WIDEN. The air of Freedom would blow and the country would glow.

    But if they do not want secularism (godless).. and want a Religious State., then., that argument leads to the foll :

    Pak : Islamic : leading to strife & destruction 24×7.
    India : will go the HinduTVA way., sooner or later. Its secularism is a bluff, fraud, and convenient. Congress believes in pragmatic communalism, BJP in POGROMAtic Communalism. Its only a matter of shade. So does CPI., and others. (CPI ruled W. Bengal for 34 yrs.. WB has a Muslim population of 25%… and yet… they are less than 2% in Govt. Service ! CPI’s record was worst than Narendra Modi’s).
    Bangladesh : would become a cheap labour factory for God’s unwanted children.

    Aise hee shauq mein paida kar diya.. aur poori duniya mein chhor diya.. ke jaao.. aur 2 roti ke liye kaam karo. Cars wash karo. Roads sweep karo. Is quality ke stuff ke saath.. World Conquest par chaley hain ?

    One bomb = 1 billion human beings.
    That is the power of science (quality) over human beings (swords) or quantity.

    Sword ka zamana khatm hua. Ab air-war-fare ka zamana hai.

    INDIA is playing a waiting-game… for Pakistan and BD to destruct itself… while it is on the consolidation path (economically). It will settle matters with China (on Chinese terms).. and leave the small players to their God.

  22. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Bharaty,
    You are a demon zombie, go back to sleep in the caves of himalayas with your Gods before the sunlight appears and burns whatever is left of your torso. Your BC time is up long time ago, this is 21st century for people to explore the cosmic world who have neither the time nor the patience for your Hari Krishna Dharma or to read your flowery language of prehistoric hindu culture. Enough is enough; not the arabs but the Chinese dragon is meant to civilise the rest of your kind and your oversexed Gandhis,lama buddhists and godless creatures.

    Rex Minor

  23. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Its not his fault.. its not anyone’s fault. We have brought ourselves to this level, when people abuse us at will without FEAR and get away with it. So that structural weakness must be addressed.

    The cure : is not possible in a day. Sorry, there is no band-aid / quick-fix solution to this. YOu need Surgical operation… Ah ! That is someone else’s phrase.. but in spite of a great surgeon due to poor tools, it has led to septic. The whole body is rotting now. There is NO cure. When i see the news that emanates from the region.. it cuts my heart. I see no hope at all. There is no law and order on the street (1st requisite). There is no elite to do something. The state has abdicated in its duties completely. Its now left to Non-State Actors to run the show.. at the street level.

    MAFIOSOS ruling ! Its not a state at all. No sovereignity. Musharraf, The Matriculate had said : “There is no such thing as sovereignity”. What would The Matriculate know about ? Idiot, ate beef and did the stupid Kargil fiasco (as a revenge for 1971). This desire for Revenge-Revenge-Revenge (Badlaa-Badlaa-Badlaa) will destroy what remains.

    Jab tak mukammal tabaah nahin karenge.. nahin chhup rahenge. The W.Punjabis are taking revenge against the IDEA of Pakistan. They were against it as late as 1947 (Sikandar Hyat Khan – Unionists). History repays very badly and fiercely.

  24. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    What a great achievement for people of Pakistan and its political elites like Mr jinnah to make a country from the muslim majority areas of India with the objective to later make a secular- non religious entity- after independence. The next task appears to be in the like minded pakistan liberals is to make a secular Pakistan along the lines of India. Not bad at all! A secular India side by side with a secular Pakistan and I guess secular Bangla Desh! But why all this complicated hocus pocus if the objective was to have a secular non religious entity after all. No civilised western country is of secular nature and the majority of the people are still hanging on to the values of the scriptures which are more or less reflected in their constitutions. Was Mr Jinnah not familiar with the constitutions of the countries such as the chinese, the japanese and cambodians etc etc. And what about the human rights which were not known in the secular world?
    As an outside observer, I get the impression that Mr Jinnah was a cherry picker and had no fixed political agenda, other than to bring out the like minded compatriots from India to the new land at the expense of non-muslims elites who left the territory of Pakistan at the behest of Indian congress leaers.

    Rex Minor

  25. HistoryBuff United States Safari iPad says:

    People abuse Pakistan out of fear, not without fear.. They fear the disorder, and want it contained.

  26. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Drona,

    Do not despair, no one abuses no one. The caravans march on while the sound of the barking dingos gets merged in the sands of the dsert. I know that people of a small Town in Pakistan are born with golden hands, most probably without the knowledge of their neighbours. They specialise in the manufacture of surgical equipment as well as sport products which are utilised in most European countries. Anyone who is involved in this industry has placed himself in the premium league of industrial Nations. Is their a technical university in this town which allows its residents to study for advance engineering.

    Rex Minor

  27. Kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Rex

    The theory is that Mr Jinnah did not articulate any fixed political agenda because he wanted everyone to sign on. Some versions of this theory state that he represented all non-Hindus (Sikhs, Christians, Atheists, Paris, Ahmadis, Jains, and Buddhists), some suggest he represented all non-brahmins and non-banias. A couple of articles published on PTH have implied that Jinnah represented everyone who lived in the Muslim-majority states of the current Pakistan. As you can see it gets a little murky.

    Jinnah did consistently speak of Islam, but there again, few really know about his Islam. Debates exist about whether he converted to this or that ‘sect’ and when. So Jinnah today cannot be understood as any real human being, only as as political tool in the hands of people fighting for the soul of Pakistan. Everyone reads his or her own vision in him. Liberals say that Jinnah always used Islam as a code word for Western-style or Indian-style secularism. In fact, the liberal position is that (1) Jinnah was hoodwinking everyone else – Hindus and Muslims alike – all his life, or at least after he began to speak of Pakistan, and (2) he did not get sufficient time to unhoodwink everyone back after independence, except for one speech. Whether it is true or not, it is a very weak political position to take in the real world, and therefore does not have much political influence outside of the living rooms of a few.

    Outsiders like you can reasonably be less interested in what might or might not have existed in the mind of Mr Jinnah, and more in the actual process of participation and non-participation by which his goals were obtained and in the real consequences of that process. The rest is really religion.

  28. Paktea United States Safari iPad says:

    Thomas Friedman’s account of the extraordinarily diverse nature of Indian national leadership today does not give a full account of it. He mentions that the Prime Minister and the Army Chief are Sikhs, and that the Foreign Minister, Supreme Court Chief Justice and Intelligence Chief are Muslims. That is true, but there is more to the story. The Air Force Chief is a Christian, as is the Defence Minister. The Home Minister is a Dalit Hindu. The most powerful politician in the country, and the leader of the ruling political party is a Christian as well. The speaker of the lower house of Parliament is a Dalit Hindu, and the Vice President, who is also the Chairman of the upper house is a Muslim.

    Thus, if one looks at the order of precedence, only the titular post of the Presidency and only one of the big three ministries – the Finance Ministry – is led by a person who is not a Muslim/Sikh/Chirstian/Dalit. And of the three services, only one – the Navy – is currently led by a Hindu.

    The most important point, however, is that such a situation would be considered extraordinary in almost any other country. But you would be hard put to find even a single article in the Indian media, or a single story on Indian television that highlights this fact.

  29. krupakaran India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    rex and kaalchakra

    (1)Jinnah’s representative capacity in 1946 is very doubtful and at best, partially true. Nehru wrote to Cripps in jan 1946 : ” the pakistan movement would collapse if the British stop supporting it” Nehru also said: “Pakistan is an impossibility as NWFP will not be part of it”. True, ML won handsomely in 1946 election in Bengal, but Bengal was only one of 5 muslim majority provinces.ML was roundly defeated by Fazlul Haque’s Krishak Praja party in the 1937 election. Fazlul Haque was a bigger and more solidly-based leader than Jinnah. Nehru wanted Haque in the interim govt, but wavell lost his temper and blocked it. This thug wavell was a churchill appointee and churchill had already suffered the most ignominous electoral defeat in Brit history. Nehru should have got this cheap social climber of a wavell booted out, and someone from the Labour left shud’ve come over.Ev en earlier, in 1937, Subhas Bose wanted congress to support Haque but at G D Birla’s instance, Gandhi blocked it. If congress had done that, history would have been different
    (2) True to repeat, ML won in Bengal. But thhat was with the Brits concealing their role in Bengal famine. Had those facts been known, ML, which was accountable for lapses in the famine and for obeying the british orders to commit atrocities, may have lost. Also, there was no mandate for jinnah or nehru or patel to divide bengal or punjab or india. In their ignorance, Cong accused ML govt in Bengal of lapses and ML blamed Hindu members of Viceroy’s councl. The real culprits smiled and intrigued on. And when partition was announced, the elected Premier of bengal, Suhrawardy would have none of it and wanted bengal to remail united!
    (3) In NWFP , Cong ruled under Frontier Gandhi. Brit governor intrigued on behalf of ML and Cong accepted the idea of a referendum which the Brits rigged.We betrayed NWFP. Mountbatten bargained this surrender of NWFP ffor granting division of bengal and punjab.
    (4) In Sind, again the Brit Governor, Francis Mudie rigged an election after first saving the ML govt with a solitary vote of a European member.
    (5)Nehru in talks suggested in april 1946 that Viceroy declare that european members in the assemblies wud not vote on these issues.That did’nt happen. Cong should hv burnt effigies of each european member in front of their houses. It would signal to all ML members that th Brit days were numbered and we could hv evolved our relations differently.
    (6) When great kolkata killing happened, cong shud’ve made it known to the Brit commercial interests in Kolkata that, anyhow. there was no question of unified bengal and punjab going to pakistan, and if the brits continued to act smart by increasing the divisions then their jute mills and tea gardens wud be nationalised in independent india. That is the only language those worthless limeys understood.

  30. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kaal, KKara,

    well said, though the details are important for people who research and those who were familiar with the prsonalities of the living political leaders. YLH has been kind enough to write as much as one should know about this visionary individual, who for better or worse influenced the destiny of the people of the Indian civilisation.

    Once you are able to use Hegel’s speculative logic it is not difficult to read the mind of a living or the one who is no longer with us, we are even able to reconstruct the reality without much difficulty. We have done it with the most ancient body of the individual which for thousands of years layed intact in the snows of the Austrian alps as well as those who were mumified to protect their human bodies for thousands of years.

    We tell our children what is right for them to follow, though we occasioaly do not adhere to it ourselves. Is this the margin of error which one comes acroos the person who was a modern western educated and cultured individual and yet he talked so passionately and persistently about the land he opted to see as an independent Islamic Nation, in place of Bharat, the Jai Hind which Congress leaders including the Khan Bros. who at the time were ruling the land of Pashtuns, genuinely aimed for?

    But this is not the topic, thomas friedman is the subject of this article and YLH is praising the Indian secular constitution which I am afraid may be suitable for a Godless society of non believers but falls short of what a believer, the western educated and cultured individual expects from the constitution? In Indian culture we are told that the woman is permanently regarded a sex object and has been given a second class status. the people of schedule castes and untouchables must according to Hindu faith be subject to torture and humiliation, let alone any rights. The crime against women including gang rapes and torture is a regular feature of the Indian society and the Govt. of Mr Singh has no plans against this pest, but BJP is now proposig according to BBC a death penalty for the rapists. Not bad idea to cotrol the populatio.

    Does the Indian secular constitution have no remedy for this social illness, and is this the reason that BJP is proposing the 7th century Sharia for the land? The breaking news across the cable network in Europe, headed by BBC and Al Jazeera are busy with this subject and according to an indian human rights activist the Hindu religion violates basic human rights.

    Enough with double standards and hypocracy. People of the christian, jewish and muslim countries violate human rights despite swearig to the religions which stipulate morality and ethics, whereas Hindus do so because of their faith. What a farce? Do we now have to listen to the man from the land of opportunity to tell us that secularism is a baby of the jews, where children are being targetted as little birds.

    No thanks. Let Egypt find the right course for their people and let the Yanks clean up the slaughter which is a recurrent feature clearly due to mental illness.

    Rex Minor

  31. Paktea United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Perhaps the worst record of treatment of women, non-believers and other weaker sections of society is in Islam. Not just in the rule of the Muslim tyrants, but in the idealized example of Prophet Muhammad himself. His destruction of the idols in Mecca, his killing of Jewish subjects, his ownership of slaves – all of these should be unacceptable to anybody with a head on their shoulders. And I know that all of these are rationalized, but any thinking person can tell that these are weak rationalizations of the kind people do for Hitler. It is therefore a bit rich for people like Rex Minor to rail against the Constitutions that try to protect people against tyranny in the name of religion, whichever religion it may be – Hinduism or Islam or anything else. They are not perfect, but at least the ideals they espouse are universal, and moreover they have internal mechanisms for self-correction and are not immutable like the words of Gods and the examples of prophets.

  32. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    India has been named as the worst country among G20 Nations for women to be born in, says AL Jazeera! I am sincerely sad for the avatars who thought that their secular constitution would support their standing in the world. Wrong are the Pundits of ‘secularism’ per say who underestimate the influence of faith on morality and ethics an igore the statement of Voltaire and Immanuel Kant.

    Rex Minor

  33. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    PakTea,

    Your analogy is wrong, listen straight from the horses mouth, the Indian human rights activist reporting from India about the 23 years old woman who was gang raped in a Bus and thrown out on the street and is now on ventilator. Hinduism is not a religion and stipulates torture and violece agaist schedule castes and untouchables, says the human activist. The ancient culture which sent women to accompany their dead men for cremation live cannot be reformed to make it a socialy acceptable culture in our times.

    What has occured in history when prophets of God were crucified and the exchange of people with one another took place on the battle ground, is for the historians and the students of history to elaborate on how and why this and that event occured. What the occurances which cocern us today after centuries of civilisation and the arrival of Prophets of God and the written commandments through Moses, Jesus and Mohammad(peace be upon them) to name a few who brought scriptures outlining the morals ad ethics for humans and the subsequent conflicts of Nations with one another and two World wars and those which followed after this period, it is hypocracy to seek refuge in the world of idols and worship of statues simply to divert from todays shabby animal behaviour agaist women which uder no circumsatnces is forgivable.

    No civilised western constitution is based on secularism; Secularism was introduced by Hitler in Germany and by Mussolini in Italy after enterig into a concord with the church, the vatican, with the agreement of each responsible for their functios without any interfearance of the church in the administration of the Govt. and legislature and equaly the Govt ad the legislature shall ot interfear with the authority of the vatican who as head of the church must receive the religion tax from the faithful. This concord is in place today and the german Govt is obliged to collect the religion tax and pays to the church.

    The German constitution reflects the value of scriptures. capital puishment has been abolished and article 1 stipulates that the dignity of the indiviual is not violable!

    Rex Minor

    PS.Why pick Hitler, he was no different than Churchil, Stalin or the Napolean and other French leaers who caused the death of millions of Algerians. just Google and make your own biased subjective judgements and rate them for your pleasure.

  34. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Paktea,

    Your comments remind me of Mohammad Asad, who was born a jew but later converted to Islam, a European muslim but served the interests of not only Islam but also worked as a diplomat for Pakistan. I wonder what have been his reaction to your statement about jews of Madina (who granted asylum to the Prophet of God,peace be upon him) and a secular constitution.

    Rex Minor

  35. Paktea United States Safari Mac OS says:

    I wonder what the Banu Qurayza would have thought of Muhammad the Prophet. Oh wait – the men (and one woman) were all murdered in cold blood “after” surrendering unconditionally. And the women “and children” were enslaved, including one who became the Prophet’s personal slave. And their property was stolen, with a full one-third of it going to the Prophet. What an example! And you want to impose a state that is based on the examples of this kind?

  36. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Paktea,

    No I do not, they happen to be your narrative, your words and your conclusions. I like the state I live in with the costitution it has and even the Govt. which is currently in office. And we are in the 21st century and not in the 7th!

    Rex Minor

  37. Dronacharya Saudi Arabia Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Muslim Girl Raped in Delhi by 7 RSS/BJP workers ! She is long dead. They are prolonging the matter. GOI is not sincere.

    LK Advani took a Rath Yatra (to destroy signs of slavery – babri masjid – and re-build a new india thereon). THat was not the destruction of a building. it was destruction of an era., a heritage, a worldview. After that, VIJAY DIVAS (Day of Victory) the old India (Nehruvian) was thrown off the cliff (off the domes of Babri masjid) and a new India took shape. LK Advani and RSS never believed in the :

    1. constitution of india
    2. flag of india
    3. national anthem of india.

    to-date RSS does not acknowledge the above 3 as binding upon them. RSS, the world’s largest terrorist organisation with its institutionalised riot systems, is not even a Registered Body (under Regn. of Societies/Trusts Act!). and does not pay a single rupee in Tax ! Hello !!

    But LK Advani’s Rath (RAKK`T – meaning blood) Yatra gave the hindu boys a slogan : Rape muslim girls / kill muslim men / steal muslim private property (ies) WITH IMPUNITY. Police tumhare saath hai.

    Provoke & Attack Strategem :

    Subsequently Bal Thackerey unleashed a pogrom on Muslims in Mumbai killing thousands of Indian Muslims and destroying their economic backbone/livelihood literally bringing them on the streets.

    (And the perpetrator of the pogrom gets a ‘State Funeral’ – wrapped in the national flag – he never recognised !!). Hello !!

    In 2002, Narendra Modi emulates Bal Thackerey in Pogrom-II in Gujarat ! (Godhra and Post Godhra were scripted by the same Bhaand/Film Script Writer: Narendra Damodardas Modi). The people of Gujarat voted him., NOT BECAUSE OF DEVELOPMENT (There hasnt been any.. except for Nano factory)., BUT BECAUSE HE KILLED MUSLIMS. That planning and executing the Pogrom is his biggest achievement – and he is being repaid for that favour. It is an intellectual/emotional RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

    RAPE OF MUSLIM GIRL IN A MOVING BUS BY 7 HINDU BOYS IN DELHI : These boys were born / grew up in the environment of LK Advani’s Rath (RAKK`T) Yatra. They grew up dis-respecting the Law, Constitution, System. So they broke the system with impunity. This is the Post-Vijay Divas GENERATION.

    That kills / rapes / burns / loots Muslim Property (THE OTHER) with impunity as the Police/Army/System looks ON ! If Muslims come out to protest… they are showered with bullets (Mir Waiz’s Funeral Procession was fired upon by the Indian Army/PAC/CRPF). It is this DENIAL of justice that is pushing muslims to think in “other ways”., which is inevitable.

    End result is : Destruction of India., and end of the India Inc. growth story.

    Who will invest in a country that is :

    1) A dengue country
    2) A country of social strife – where not a day passes – without a riot somewhere.
    3) Where the country is the RAPE CAPITAL of the world (80 rapes / per day).
    4) Where there is no rule of law
    5) Where there is no constitution – police – army – system
    6) Where murder/rape/violence is done with impunity and PRIDE.

    In effect it shows that India is a banana republic. The India Inc. Story is now dead. One must think twice before investing a single penny in India, as that country is on the throes of a civil war.

    Vietnam / Philippines / Africa / is MORE PEACEFUL and a better Investment Destination.

  38. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Drona,

    I honesty cannot imagine how a country can function humanely with a secular constitution of a size of India and amicably live together with the minority who are beievers of a faith which places emphasis on family morals?

    Rex Minor

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