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Two Nation Theory and Creation of Bangladesh

Raza Habib RajaThis article is not a “defense” or repudiation of the two nation theory (TNT). Rather it tries to critically evaluate the argument that creation of Bangladesh in fact proved that the two nation theory was not valid. Those who claim that the two nation theory has proven to be a failure cite creation of Bangladesh as an example. It is claimed that ethnic nationalism trumped religion and therefore the two nation theory has proven to be a failure. I do not intend to prove that the two nation theory is wrong or right but just evaluate it with reference to creation of Bangladesh.

Frankly speaking I am not a history expert and do not claim any command on minute details of partition and its various narratives. However, as a student of political thought and comparative politics, I have often been fascinated by the two nation theory. Now for someone who calls himself a “Pakistani Indian”, it may appear that I will be a staunch opponent of the “two nation” theory. The way, it is often interpreted is that Hindus and Muslims are two distinct nations who would have found it impossible to live together and therefore Muslims who were the minority at that time would need a separate politically autonomous state. I do oppose this version and I think that it is highly debatable. If being a Muslim is the criteria of a separate state then why stop at India? Why not also include all the Muslims of the world and merge them into one nation state?

We know such a thing is not possible and is in fact laughable. The two nation theory would start making sense if only we understand the fleeting concept of identity. We are not just Muslims, but are also have ethno linguistic identities which at times may be competing with each other and at times complimenting each other. Everything revolves around a complex phenomenon known as identity and in politics that is often the most important factor in mobilization. Identity itself may be constructed or at times may simply be something you are born with. Moreover, identity may be dormant and can become active. It is when an identity becomes active, political expression follows.

How a particular identity becomes active often depends on the perceived benefits as well as drawbacks associated with it. It also becomes active, if there is a perception that you are being victimized on the basis of that particular identity. Once an identity is activated, it can form various political expressions which range from political mobilization to demand greater rights to outright demand s for a separate nation state. What determines the exact form of political expression depends on many things. For example gender identity can form a political expression but it is not possible ( at least has not happened ever) for women to demand a separate country! Demand for equal pay and improved civil rights are expressed largely through civil society and do not aim to change the geographical and administrative structure of a particular country.

On the other hand ethnic identity can form various political expressions ranging from formation of political parties on ethnic lines to demands for a separate state. Ethnic nationalists can demand a separate state particularly when an ethnicity views that it is possible to secede and the secession will lead to better standard of living and greater rights. The demand for a separate nation state is also hugely dependent on actual geographical dispersion of the population belonging to that ethnicity. If there are geographical concentrations then the demand for secession is more likely compared to a situation where the ethnicity is evenly dispersed all over the country.

Religion like ethnicity is an identity though compared to ethnic identity is less “rigid”. It is generally said that religion is merely set of believes, but at least in political literature, it has always been considered much more than that. In fact, some have gone to the extent of calling religion of birth as a form of ethnic identity. Yes theoretically speaking it could be changed, but religious identity is a powerful identity particularly in circumstances where discrimination or perceived discrimination is conducted on religious lines.

Put simply religion can also be an effective political identity provided certain conditions are there. And like other identities, it can form a political expression of demanding a separate state.

Demand for Pakistan ( whether we consider it as an actual demand or as bargaining ploy by Jinnah) was a consequence of an activated political identity. There were incidences which activated the Muslim identity and Congress is equally responsible for that as much as the Muslim elites.

Like ethnicity, religion can be a politically potent factor leading to possible demands of a nation state. In Pakistan’s case Muslims were also concentrated in two geographical zones (present day Pakistan and Bangladesh). While a substantial number was also dispersed all over the country there is no denying of the fact that areas forming West Pakistan ( Present day Pakistan) and East Pakistan (Bangladesh) were Muslim majority areas.

It is true that ethnic identity on its own is often a stronger motivating factor though at the time of independence there were no mass movements demanding independence on ethnic lines. In fact if demand for a nation state is only justified on ethnic lines then India itself should have been divided into many parts as there are so many languages spoken there.

Moreover, the term “partition” is misleading because India has rarely been politically a single unit. Throughout its history, there was just a loose geographical continuity which has always enabled this land to be called India. Within this geographical unit, there have been various political configurations. The right question is not whether there should have been a “partition” but rather whether the areas coming under present day Pakistan and Bangladesh should have joined Indian federation ( as visualized by Congress) or not.

So there were in reality various identities emerging out of Indian subcontinent. There was a broader Indian identity, religious identities, and ethnic linguistic identities. In other words there have always been nations within a nation. And then there is a concept of hybrid identity. It is not important for many to be just Muslims but rather they want their religious freedom as well as their ethnic and cultural independence. So I may be Muslim but at the same time I would prefer that my Punjabi cultural freedom is also safeguarded.

When Bengali and Sindhi Muslims voted for Pakistan (after all let’s not forget that these two provinces clearly voted for Pakistan), the idea was not merely preservation of their religious freedom but a combination of both religious as well ethnic/cultural freedoms. Thus when Bengali Muslims (who were also geographically concentrated) voted for creation of Pakistan, it was also for the preservation of their Bengali identity along with religious identity.

The choice was to join Indian federation or join Pakistan. Those who voted for Pakistan joined Pakistan with the view that perhaps their ethnic and cultural freedom would be better safeguarded in Pakistan rather than India.

The reason why Bangladesh came into being is less to do with fallacy of two nation theory but more with how actually West Pakistan treated East Pakistanis. It is not the idea itself but the way Pakistan tried to over centralize and negate Bengali culture and their ethnic identity. Pakistan superimposed Urdu over Bengali and adopted a policy of sustained repression. Bengalis seceded mainly because of the way we treated them. The discrimination activated the Bengali nationalism and led to secession. But once again it was the hybrid identity of both Islam and Bengali ethnicity which dictated the choice of independence rather than merger with India. What had earlier prompted them to opt for Pakistan, once again led them to become an independent state.

The two nation theory would have been discarded IF Bengalis had opted to join India in 1971 rather than opting for going independent.

Personally I think history is yet to give its verdict about the two nation theory. We cannot just say that just because Bangladesh came into being therefore it is wrong.

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542 Responses to "Two Nation Theory and Creation of Bangladesh"

  1. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    For someone who actually calls himself a “Pakistani Indian”, I find it ironical that I am defending the validity of an idea which I have never liked….

    But my lack of likeness does not disapprove the idea…

    Ideas in social sciences particularly those which make a political statement and demand some sort of political action are proven through their mass scale acceptance and NOT by what I think..

    TNT unfortunately has credibility…..simply because when you throw democracy ( which essentially is a number game) in, then it has mass scale acceptance..

    OK NC, HP , Romain and all others…

    Lets take a plebsite..

    Forget Bangladesh…

    If we hold a referundam in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh about a simple question that should Pakistan and India and Bangladesh become one country??

    We all know the answer……

    If the answer is YES then TNT would go out of the window

    As a formal student of political science….It is the ACTUAL evidence which is needed here….

    I hate myself for saying it….but TNT in subcontent context holds…

    My dislike for TNT, or my pride in my Indian identity, does not negate TNT…

    Regards

    Raza

  2. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    And yes

    Kaal was right

    I am more of an Indian…

    But sorry, TNT’s validity is not proven through what i want….

  3. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    @ Kaal

    “That is silly. Pakistan was broken by West Pakistan’s racist bigotry and contempt for Bengalis in general. It was also broken that Jinnah himself did not understand TNT as clearly as Bengali Muslims did – that implementation of TNT did NOT require Urdu.

    JI, seeing themselves as Muslims, first and last, tried to be a vehicle for West Bengali domination, but they did not play a primary role.”

    You see that is why I call Kaal brilliant despite disagreeing with him INTENSELY over certain things ( Ahmedis in particular)and other things also..

    Truth for me has never been what I like…..

    Acceptance of TNT as an effective idea was extremely hard for me….but frankly it is validated not only by what pakistan does but also by what parties like BJP in India do…by what RSS does…

    TNT is also validated ( rather ironically) when Indians start comparing Pakistan with shining India….

    That comparison itself lends support to TNT……

    Sorry…

    Give me evidence….

    And frankly as an indian….I will lap on to it…

  4. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    @ Kashif

    Thanks..

    Very pertinent points..

    Regards

    Raza

  5. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Raza
    .
    “If we hold a referundam in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh about a simple question that should Pakistan and India and Bangladesh become one country??”
    .
    KC gave a response to that before in his own inimitable way. After the goat is cut into three pieces, it is very difficult/impossible to stitch together the head the body and the tail and infuse life in it. This is why I said earlier that Bangladesh rejoining India is a wild proposition. Such things do not happen. Once a separate nationalism develops (and Bangaladeshi nationalism developed in the period 1947-1971 itself, reasons why they went to war with West Pakistan) nation states do not merge back. It would be impossible for the Bangladeshi leaders, even if they wanted to, to convert the already well entrenched Bangladeshi nationalism into an Indian nationalism. As history shows, the maximum that happens in such situations, is some sort of European Union like formation, which can certainly happen between Bangladesh and India in the long run, once the remaining minor hostilities and disputes are ironed out. Had East and West Bengals been independent entities by themselves, like the former West and East Germany, the question of them rejoining may have been practical, but that is not the situation with EB and WB.
    .
    After the partition riots, millions of homeless, and decades of discord, squabbling, and outright war the question of asking the people of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh whether or not they want to rejoin and a taking a negative response to that as some sort of validation of TNT is hardly the right way to analyze TNT. I know this is how most Pakistanis view it, especially the question of Bangladesh not rejoining India, as Bin Ismail, Kashif, Syed etc are putting it, including yourself and KC for some strange reason, as some sort of ex posto facto validation. But I think the most you can ask for is a European Union like formation not outright rejoining.
    .
    One more point, Jinnah’s Aug. 11 speech was not TNT, that was the repudiation of TNT , once his political goals were met. A sample of TNT speech was what I quoted before, delivered in the famous Lahore Conference, and which clearly stated that Hindus and Muslims could not co-exist with one as a majority and the other as a minority. Bangladesh has proved that wrong since 1971, I am sure it would have proved that wrong even with a 22% Hindu population had it been the maker of its own destiny since 1947.

  6. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    NC..

    I am fully aware of the actual difficulties in reunion…of course once u cut a goat then it can not be “reunited”..

    But opinions and sentiments are not goats….

    I am just asking about a sentiment….of course practically it is difficult…but do they even harbor a desire..

    You see when hindu rightwingers boast that how well india has performed without Pakistan…do u see the irony here..

    anyways….for me..this is difficult……I am a rajput for thousands of years…..a muslims for hundreds of years …..and a pakistani for just a few decades..

    Sorry..i do not like it….

    BUT contrary evidence is so weak….

    I wish it was stronger…

    As a social scientist, at times you have to accept evidence which is NOT according to your liking..

    Pakistan, if I was alive in 1946, I would have in all probability not supported it…

    But Pakistan is a reality..born out of TNT…..which contiues to survive and will continue to survive UNLESS majority of those in PRESENT DAY INDIA, PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH, decide to rol it back..or at least DESIRE to roll it back ( come on mere desire is not suject to pragmatic difficulties)

    Regards

    Raza

  7. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    If only Hindus could see the truth of Islam and convert there will not be any need for TNT.

  8. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    If Hindus keep clinging to the pagan lies than there is no alternative but another partition. Kashmir and a part of north India connecting east and west Pakistan should be given to Muslims and Hindus should take the central and south India.

    Complete separation between Muslims and kuffar is the only solution to restore peace in the sub-continent.

  9. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    MTG

    contribute positively if you can on which is a difficult topic..( for me personally)

    rather than coming up with your typical rants..( which you always utter while carefully hiding your real ID!!!)

    Ok…

  10. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    learn to say words beyond kuffar….and learn to narticulate ur argument..

    once u said that deep down we agree..

    may be WE do agree..but at least learn to articulate yourself..

    ok

    wink wink,,

  11. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Raza
    .
    You refer to the Hindu rightwingers, well, they were/are believers in TNT, as KC here will gladly testify. Among all the Indian leaders, it was Savarkar who understood Jinnah’s demands (There is a famous speech by him that I may reproduce later). That is the irony of it all.
    .
    There is no question of TNT’s relevance to Pakistan. TNT gave them a country, about which their whole nationalism is developed, discarding it entirely for them amounts to throwing the baby away with the bathwater. This is why we see an attempt by BI, Kashif. etc to even include Jinnah’s Aug. 11 speech within TNT. Which looks amusing from the outside, after all, if “Hindus would cease to be Hindus, Muslims would cease to be Muslims, in the political sense…” etc, then which separate nations are we talking about? But TNT, in the sense it was propounded all along starting with the Lahore Conference, and before the Aug. 11 speech, that Hindus and Muslim cannot co-exist as equal citizens in the same state, is irrelevant and harmful for both India and Bangladesh.
    .
    This is not to say that the “Hindu rightwingers” do not agree with it, they do. They would like even the remaining Muslims in India to migrate to Pakistan or Bangladesh. But most Indians and most Bangladehsis do not see it that way. That is the crux of the invalidation of TNT in these countries. Actually, for looking for the evidence of validation or not of TNT in the sub-continent, you should not look into the external relations between India Pakistan and Bangladesh (once the die is cast it usually stays), but the relations and dynamics among the various communities within each country separately. Even that is not free of the external influences (for instance Indian Muslims often bear the burnt of the existence and hostilities with Pakistan) but that is a better indicator of the validation of TNT than cross national relationships. On this more reliable indicator Bangladesh has proven the failure of TNT. This is also the point Ppaktea and Romain made some time ago.

  12. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    What is it that you don’t agree with? Let me break it into pieces for easier understanding and tell me which statement you disagree with –

    1. Hindu are kuffar as Allah states in Quran.
    2. Hindus follow pagan rituals and lies which is haram.
    3. Some Hindus embraced the truth of Islam.
    4. Other Hindus rejected the truth if Islam.
    5. If all Hindus had embraced the truth of Islam, then entire sub-continent will be Muslims.
    6. In that case there will be no TNT.
    7. But some Hindus will always reject Islam and so TNT is needed.
    8. So we need complete separation of kuffar from Muslims.

  13. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    What is wrong with kuffar? Kuffar is the basis for TNT. Allah has made me kuffar and he has made you Muslim. Lets not make kuffar a dirty word.

  14. Zainulabideen United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @ Kaalchakra (February 7, 2013 at 8:15 pm)
    I can sense a soft corner for Jamaat-e-Islami here. Don’t worry. Even if you are a committed Jamatia, I respect your entitlement to your opinion. The mention of the Al Badr and Al Shams wings of Jamaat-e-Islami seems to have caused some unwarranted distress here. Regrets.

  15. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    MTG

    since u have no intentions of coming out of your lunacy therefore NO comments…

    Keet on spewing whatever u r..

  16. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    NC

    Our fundamentil difference is that you think that TNT meant Muslims and Hindus could not simply live together and I think that Muslims wanted a seperate state to avoid hindu majority…

    since we dont agree on our basic premise theerefore we will eventually not agree…despite the fact that in essence BOTH of us do not endorse or support TNT!!!!!

  17. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Raza

    For once Tell me what’s wrong with what I said – or else keep articulating.

  18. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    MTG

    as I said do what ever u like to..

    it is pointless…to argue with you..

    keep on these rants abt kuffar islam blah blah..
    are these terms worthy of any intellectual debate???

    these merely show ur deep seated bigotry, which you hurl under the anonymity of internet..

  19. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Raza
    .
    “Our fundamentil difference is that you think that TNT meant Muslims and Hindus could not simply live together and I think that Muslims wanted a seperate state to avoid hindu majority…”
    .
    Yes, that is the difference. But what you are referring as TNT was the political goal behind putting forth such a theory , what I am referring as TNT is the actual “theory” itself, as it appears in that speech by Jinnah (and many others) that you have no comments on. The theory, which was a political tool, said Hindus and Muslims could not co-exist as equal citizens of the same state due to differences in religion, culture, etc. The actual political goal of Jinnah may have been different, as is evidenced by the Aug. 11 speech, but that was not the theory itself.

  20. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    india suffers eternally in the hands of the troika of Marvadi’s,
    Gujju’s & Brahmins. The Big three have made India suffocate &
    suffer by their unethical ways throughout the history. Put together they
    add up to 8 to 9% of Indian population and hold more than 90% of Indian
    money, power and other resources. Socially, Educationally, Economically
    they have always been very powerful & superior to the remaining
    masses of India. Indian Economy is in the hands of Marvadi’s. They hold
    most of the Indian businesses. It is surprising to see only one
    community flourish in businesses, generations after generations. These
    people do not eat mutton but suck the blood out of people. They have
    mistaken cheating & manipulations for entrepreneurship. Non-marvadi
    Indian can succeed in business outside India but not in India. Sabeer
    Bhatia and others in Silicon
    Valley are great examples. Non-marvadi Indian can succeed in Indian
    Business with Non-Indian clientele. Infosys & other big & small
    software companies are live examples. However, a Non-Marvadi cannot
    succeed in Indian business Environment whereas a Marvadi can easily
    succeed with their competence in manipulatuions and machinations without
    really having the real competence, technical or otherwise. Right from
    adultering milk & other food items in a grocery shop, duping
    customers with non-standard items for branded items, to the big
    industrialists evading taxes, a Marwadi is involved everywhere in
    cheating this Nation.
    They have mastered the
    trick of greasing palms of ever greedy politicians & bureaucrats to
    ensure the unethical & illegal businesses & methods are ignored
    by the people in Power. Business are shared within their community
    irrespective of cost and quality to ensure firm hold on business &
    economy with the Marvadi’s. Every attempt is made to kill the
    entrepreneurship from other communities. Businesses given to
    Non-marvadi’s will suffer Non-payment OR late payments to the point of
    closure of the others business. Employees in Marvadi firms are treated
    like slaves. The most qualified, intelligent and effective of the
    Employees have to work under low educated marvadi, appointed by the
    owner, as their boss, who keeps on learning from them and bossing over
    them at the same time, without giving exposure, value addition, or
    avenue to move ahead in the company. Once a person enters a Marvadi
    company, his learning stops and has to remain clerk forever, even if he
    is a Professional. With no addition in knowledge, he cannot venture
    outside the company and has to live a life of stagnated pond. Marvadi’s
    are destroying the intelligent and educated middle class just because
    this class is entrapped in home loans and other such loans. Earlier they
    cheated people by lending money at exorbitant interests and grabbed
    farming lands & other properties worth crores of rupees. A parallel
    economy with black money is run by the same community
    The unethical ways of Marvadi’s are
    destroying people and the Nation. Gujju’s are aptly represented by
    people like Harshad Mehta and Ketan Parekh. Recent killings of innocent
    men, women & children from minorities can give a peep into the minds
    of Gujju’s where they are in majority. The same Gujju’s have driven out
    Maharashtrians from Mumbai to the far outskirts of Mumbai. Mumbai has
    been grabbed by Gujju’s. It is only the Parsi’s who do business in India
    very ethically and with a lot of social commitment & ecological
    responsibility. They have tremendous respect from every Indian.

    Brahmins
    blocked the education for others ensuring no competition. Brahmins have
    hold on Educational Institutions, Software companies, administrative
    jobs in Govt. & Lucrative posts in Private companies. Once a Brahmin
    enters an Organistaion, he slowly makes it the Brahmin Organisation, by
    employing everyone from his own
    caste. Where are others? They are peons, clerks, vegetable vendors,
    street cleaners, farm labourers, construction labourers, low level
    workers in factories and doing rest of the menial jobs. The suppression
    of masses continues in one form or the other.

    These three
    communities are the ardent supporters of BJP & the RSS. They are
    blinded by their self interests, least bothered about the Nation.
    Indulging in the superiority on Indian masses forever, they have been
    curse to the Indian masses.

    The new
    found mantra of Hindutva was a master stroke to deflect the attention
    of masses from the real issue of disparity & in equality to the
    non-issue of religion. Pitting one religion against another OR one caste
    against another are their strategic moves. It is indeed barbaric to
    fight each other just because the other is born in different religion or
    different caste. But that serves the purpose of these communities.
    Indian economy, businesses and education is in their hands. The masses
    should realise the intentions of the saffronites whose real masters are
    in this troika and instead of indulging in barbaric fights we should
    make every effort to uplift the masses to dizzying heights to be equal
    if not more equal to this troika, who have inflicted the greatest of
    injuries to the masses and this Nation

  21. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Without Islam and kuffar, there won’t be any TNT. Kuffar and Islam are the foundation of TNT and that’s where the debate should start.

    Give it few years – you will again agree with me – you always catch up.

  22. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    What a travesty, Cut a goat in three which is the sort of example King Soloman used in biblical times and today is not even used among the European peasants. European union like formation, what a lot of crap one reads from the so called PTH intellectuals bloggersfrom the Asian subcontinent, it is sometimes even worst on ET, which runs upto 24 hrs late.

    Dr Manmohan Singh once said the right words to a nincompup Pakistan leader and I quote something along the line,” we cannot change the borders but make(render) them meaningless”.

    This is the exact concept of the European Union, to make one people from the 27 countries, all being Europeans and without changing the boundries! This is the devolution process and is being followed, slavaks separating from the Checks but remaining as equals and members of the European Union. We are paying taxes to support the weaker members of the Union; we are developing European agriculture by subsidising from the European budget and so on. No one foresees a United States of Europe with an afro. European sitting as the President of Europe but we do have a European Commission, whose task is of coordination, a load of beaurocrats with symbolic titiles and even the European parliament whose members are elected in individual countries to represent them in the European parliament. They legislate Europen laws and regulations which are binding for all member states. This process shall cntinue until the integration of all indepenent Nations is complete. Even within the German republic, we have indepenent Nations in their own states, all unitedly called Germans having German language as their common language by an historical coincidence but spoken with different dialects, each a language on its own. The federal republic system works on the Ausgleich among the provinces, a sort of compensation or balance the richer and the less richer and relatively poorer States, as a means of solidarity. This is now being considered and will eventualy have to be extended to all 27 European independent Nations. The Union among the independent Nations is a long term process and must have the prerequisites of compassion and solidarity of the haves with the have nots. Mr Jinnah Pakistan, the former occupied territory of India by the Brits., despite having the Islamic background failed miserably to unfold the vision of solidarity towards the less richer provinces including Bengal the so called East Pakistan after partition, and has continued more or less todate leavin the less sourceful among the remaining Nations within its boundry to struggle on their own.

    Rex Minor

  23. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    NC

    Political slogans in the heat of election compaigns are not theories..
    Jinnah may have said it. to extract political milage but that is not a theorymeans

    btw the fact that hindus and muslims had actually lived for thousands of years together before 1930s and the fact that jinnah was intially all for “unity” means that he did not imply that.

    TNT was born out of fear of democratic majority when electoral landscape began to emerge..

    It does not mean that hindus and muslims can not live together.

    anyways since we disagree on this basic premise, we will end up disagree

  24. RHR United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    we will disagree despite being ideologically in agreement !!!

  25. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Raza
    .
    I fully agree with you that Jinnah did not mean it. Hence the Aug. 11 speech (Hindus will cease to be Hindus, Muslims would cease to be Muslims…).

  26. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Zainu

    Jamaat-e-Islami does some great work. If you misrepresent them or their role I will have a soft corner for them.

    ———————–

    NC, at the risk of losing ANY soft corner any Pakistani may have nursed for me, let me commit the mother of all blasphemies: Jinnah wouldn’t know a theory if it hit him in the face. TNT can only be grasped as the set of self-consistent and durable ideas that emerges from all his actions and words, and from how it was understood by most of his ‘followers’.

    I pray no nationalist Pakistani friend ever reads that. :)

  27. idli nehaari United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Does it matter now?

    All the three nations are poor. Everywhere you find people killed in the name of economy or religion. Somewhere you feel safe for some reason, somewhere you do not.
    —————

    crux of the matter is humanity should be spread, not religion.

  28. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Raza

    btw I agree with you that Bangladesh does not disapprove TNT. It only proves that Bengali Muslims and Punjabi Muslims are two different nations.

  29. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Chota Miyan
    .
    “The State-level variations are brought out with the help of an index constructed using data from 4 five year periods – 1990-95, 1996-00, 2001-05, and 2006-10.6 In the last few years, Bihar and Gujarat score much above the other States.(Table 1)”
    .
    According to that article, West Bengal is at the bottom of the heap.
    .
    If this is the kind of lazy study you are used to, you are gonna have a hard time in graduate school, especially if you are planning to go for a PhD. It’s good to read more and talk less.”
    .
    Hey, Miyan, stop the nutty copy-paste from the web. By this standard you not FG seem to have a bleak future. That Debroy index is for increase in anti-corruption efforts. Only a fool will equate that with corruption itself. WB Kerala obviously score lower than Bihar by that index. Here’s another study on the statewide corruption distribution: http://specials.rediff.com/money/2008/sep/05slide1.htm. Bihar is the most corrupt state, three others are keeping it company for “alarmingly corrupt”. See for yourself where your favorite WB is. Yes you guessed it, on the other extreme from Bihar. But Chota, why do you need surveys? How many Rs. 3000 crore animal fodder, Adarsh, mining, land, telecom, commonwealth scams have you heard recently from your favorite WB?

  30. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Raza

    You should be asking if Sikh Punjabis and Pakistani Punjabis are two nation and why?

    http://youtu.be/tcjb0CwbIZ4

  31. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    HP,
    Again you jumped in like the proverbial minkey without a diligent thought process. You failed to notice the date of your article. It was 2008. The one I quoted was from 2012. I don’t do research in that area so I have to quote other people’s research. Anyways, thanks for reading the article at least. A start has to be made somewhere.

  32. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Chota,
    .
    Doesn’t matter which year (which I obviously noticed) but one was about corruption (my link) and the other about “increase in anti-corruption efforts” (yours). Bihar being the most corrupt obviously needs the maximum efforts. Don’t try to sneak in one kind of statistics for another, that’s disingenuous (if you know what I mean).

  33. ExWho India Google Chrome Windows says:

    to milestogo

    We hindus (but unfortunately not all) do see the truth of islam. Islam is a totalitarian, fascist and arab imperialist ideology in the name of a 7th-century tribal-arab god-concept. Muslims are very happy to be mental slaves of this fascism and arab racism.

  34. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Heavy P,
    Most of us assume that commentators here, especially who are used to writing in flowery language, have at least basic logical skills. It becomes a heavy task if I have to guide you by hand through each and every logical deduction. Very disappointing. Is it too much to understand that a higher anti-corruption effort would correlate with lower corruption. After all, the lack of anti-corruption efforts is the reason for increased corruption. It’s not a chicken and egg problem. Again, go outside, take a walk, smoke a cig if you do and think it over. It’s not that hard.

  35. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    RHR,
    Thanks for your kind comments and I will try to restrain myself in the future but I hope you understand that few people have your patience. It’s something everyone of us can learn and I hope to do so too.
    .
    @RHR February 7, 2013 at 11:37 am
    .
    You made some brilliant points in that post. If it was only a case of logical arguments then we have to follow the due process. I think you are mixing a theoretical definition with its effects and then using the effect to justify a theory. From your post to NC, it appears that you state TNT as ” I think that Muslims wanted a seperate state to avoid hindu majority…”
    .
    That may well be the cause but that was not the theory itself. The theory clearly lays down Hindus and Muslims as “separate nations”. Why are they separate nations? Because they have different heroes, cultures, etc. The theory was defeated the moment India proclaimed itself as a secular republic. Because for a Muslim nation to exist, there has to be a Hindu nation, which was not so because India refused to be defined itself as one. So, in summary, to the proponents of the theory, I just have to show one case where it failed. Your claim that TNT would have been totally invalidated had Bangladesh joined India is not quite the same thing. That phenomenon can serve as a test for another theory: Whether two separate religious nations can ***join*** together as a nation.
    I agree with you that the secession of Bangladesh cannot be considered as a defeat of TNT. Like wise, if Kashmir becomes independent tomorrow, it doesn’t validate TNT because one can claim with reasonable confidence that the creation of Pakistan itself has guided the Kashmir secession. In that sense, it was a one shot theory whose validity was very dated.

  36. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    RHR,
    I also wanted to add that some of us who think that it was good that Pakistan happened do it for a totally different reason. I just think the whole country was too big to stay as one. If it was not Pakistan it would have broken up into many different states. In that sense, to take a perverse view, in some way, Pakistan has ensured that India has stayed as one(till now). You may not be aware of the fact that in the 70s, there were increasing doubts that the country was heading for a break up. I have read magazines of that period and I am struck by the general gloom in the writings, not very different from what you see in Pakistan today.

  37. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Chota
    .
    No sir, larger effort does not automatically mean a lower corruption. All it means is greater effort. Higher or lower corruption as a consequence depends on the base. If in 2008 Bihar was the most corrupt (alarmingly corrupt, along with 3 others), in just three years it cannot magically become the least corrupt, given the scale, however much it tries more than the other states.
    .
    I had a suspicion you were thick, just didn’t know how much.

  38. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Heavy (I decline to use P),

    You quoted a rediff article, I quoted a scholarly article. In which universe does rediff carry more credibility? I have made my case. If it doesn’t fit your logic, I am not surprised. Again, read that article carefully.

  39. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Cho
    .
    The rediff report is not an “article”. Here, this is the original source:
    .
    “A survey conducted by Transparency International-India and the Centre for Media Studies in New Delhi has for the first time released the list of India’s most and least corrupt states. The survey puts India’s states into four categories: Alarmingly Corrupt; Very Highly Corrupt; Highly Corrupt; and Moderately Corrupt.”
    .
    Bihar turns out to be the most corrupt, WB the least corrupt.
    .
    Cho, they are talking about Transparency International, Center for Media Studies! Who would you prefer, Bibek Debroy, a Bengali (damn!), or TI-India and CMS?
    .
    The Debroy article, Cho, doesn’t say anything about corruption proper. “Efforts”, without a base, have no direct correlation with corruption itself. Further the article itself quotes from Center for Media Studies, one of the two sources of the Rediff report.
    .
    Anyway, Cho, this is a waste of time for me. Come back when you see Rs. thousand crore scams coming out of WB on a daily basis, politicians sitting on Rs. thousand crore empires, with garlands of thousand Rupee notes on their necks, and being weighed with coins on their birthdays. Until then, no more on corruption (from my side).

  40. Bade Miyan United States Safari iPhone says:

    Hp,
    This Bengali vs rest thing is getting really boring. If that place is a modern Eldorado then why leave it.

  41. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    You said it I didn’t. It’s a bias very typical of you not mine. Anyways, good talking to you. And good having some fun.

  42. Mohan United Arab Emirates Safari iPad says:

    Good to see the usual knowledgeable people back on this blog. Enjoyed reading absorbing posts by Kaal, HP, CM,
    NC, Fingolfin, Kashif, Yazid and of course the RHR the author of this article. Thanks
    -
    MTG,

    good videos of MJ Akbar. thks.

  43. Dark Knight Pakistan Safari iPhone says:

    @RHR (February 7, 2013 at 10:19 pm)
    //…if I was alive in 1946, I would have in all probability not supported it…//
    Incidentally, it was in 1946, that Jinnah accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan, which, in retrospect, was most certainly the last hope of keeping India undivided. Jinnah accepted it and Nehru evaded it, and I must say, rather skillfully. Well that’s fine. For the Congress, a strong centre was more important than keeping India undivided. As far as Bangladesh is concerned, I believe, we should be able to appreciate, and even respect, the fact that the Bengali culture, language and history is an old one with deep roots. Even as a Muslim-majority nation, they are an old entity. In terms of having what it takes to make a “nation”, they are perhaps richer than today’s India and Pakistan put together. Yet, when we take a look at the history of communal riots in Bengal, undivided Bengal that is, we notice the “two nations”.

  44. RHR United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ dark knight

    You are right..let me rephrase it. In 1946, I would have supported Jinnah

    Regards

    Raza

  45. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    In case it went unnoticed, mj Akbar is a Muslim.

  46. Paktea United States Safari Mac OS says:

    A lie repeated a million times starts taking the form of truth, but remains a lie nevertheless. That is the case with the oft repeated claim on this site that Jinnah wholeheartedly accepted the CMP and that Nehru wrecked it. Please read the original resolution of the AIML supposedly “accepting” the CMP and you will see how it was meant as a too-clever-by-half attempt to claim the moral high ground with the full expectation that the CMP would not go to fruition due to its inherent unworkability, and while continuing to work to split the country. The way in which the CMP was accepted was no different from the way in which the Congress did so (and the AIML statement came before that of the Congress). Also Jinnah’s conversation with Woodrow Wyatt, showed what strategy Jinnah was using in accepting the CMP.

    Please read the original source documents rather than basing your opinions on mythmakers posing as historians.

  47. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Dark Knight, RHR

    If we listen carefully to most Bengali Muslims, they vociferously oppose Jinnah’s mistakes in imposing Urdu, in whatever other injustices West Pakistanis might have perpetrated on East Pakistanis, but they are much more subdued about criticising, fundamentally, the lifelong efforts of Quaid-e-Azam himself on behalf of Muslims, or the events and outcomes of 1947 itself.

    That, to me, seems to be the strongest evidence in support of TNT. Many Bengali Hindu even today are unable to see that Cabinet Mission Plan was PERFECTLY IN ACCORD WITH TNT; and that Bengali Muslims, ON THEIR OWN, had ALREADY OBTAINED LONG AGO something along the lines of what poor Jinnah was seeking, struggling for, all his life – constitutionally guranteed dominance of Muslims over Hindus or avoidance of Hindu dominance over Muslims – depending upon how we wish to look at things.

    But TNT is NOT, and should not be seen as a Bengal-specific construct. Similar ideas and attitudes appear to prevail almost everywhere we look. In every case the average Hindu appears totally convinced that his place or ‘culture’ was unique and its force should – but for the solution of a few economic issues – subdue the separate religious political identities of Muslims and Hindus.

    RHR, do you recall a Sindhi Hindu gentleman on Chowk using the moniker – Ranjit, and a Sindhi Muslim liberal friend who called himself HP (surely, not the same HP as our HP)? The two appear to mirror a rather general trend.

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