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Two Nation Theory and Creation of Bangladesh

Raza Habib RajaThis article is not a “defense” or repudiation of the two nation theory (TNT). Rather it tries to critically evaluate the argument that creation of Bangladesh in fact proved that the two nation theory was not valid. Those who claim that the two nation theory has proven to be a failure cite creation of Bangladesh as an example. It is claimed that ethnic nationalism trumped religion and therefore the two nation theory has proven to be a failure. I do not intend to prove that the two nation theory is wrong or right but just evaluate it with reference to creation of Bangladesh.

Frankly speaking I am not a history expert and do not claim any command on minute details of partition and its various narratives. However, as a student of political thought and comparative politics, I have often been fascinated by the two nation theory. Now for someone who calls himself a “Pakistani Indian”, it may appear that I will be a staunch opponent of the “two nation” theory. The way, it is often interpreted is that Hindus and Muslims are two distinct nations who would have found it impossible to live together and therefore Muslims who were the minority at that time would need a separate politically autonomous state. I do oppose this version and I think that it is highly debatable. If being a Muslim is the criteria of a separate state then why stop at India? Why not also include all the Muslims of the world and merge them into one nation state?

We know such a thing is not possible and is in fact laughable. The two nation theory would start making sense if only we understand the fleeting concept of identity. We are not just Muslims, but are also have ethno linguistic identities which at times may be competing with each other and at times complimenting each other. Everything revolves around a complex phenomenon known as identity and in politics that is often the most important factor in mobilization. Identity itself may be constructed or at times may simply be something you are born with. Moreover, identity may be dormant and can become active. It is when an identity becomes active, political expression follows.

How a particular identity becomes active often depends on the perceived benefits as well as drawbacks associated with it. It also becomes active, if there is a perception that you are being victimized on the basis of that particular identity. Once an identity is activated, it can form various political expressions which range from political mobilization to demand greater rights to outright demand s for a separate nation state. What determines the exact form of political expression depends on many things. For example gender identity can form a political expression but it is not possible ( at least has not happened ever) for women to demand a separate country! Demand for equal pay and improved civil rights are expressed largely through civil society and do not aim to change the geographical and administrative structure of a particular country.

On the other hand ethnic identity can form various political expressions ranging from formation of political parties on ethnic lines to demands for a separate state. Ethnic nationalists can demand a separate state particularly when an ethnicity views that it is possible to secede and the secession will lead to better standard of living and greater rights. The demand for a separate nation state is also hugely dependent on actual geographical dispersion of the population belonging to that ethnicity. If there are geographical concentrations then the demand for secession is more likely compared to a situation where the ethnicity is evenly dispersed all over the country.

Religion like ethnicity is an identity though compared to ethnic identity is less “rigid”. It is generally said that religion is merely set of believes, but at least in political literature, it has always been considered much more than that. In fact, some have gone to the extent of calling religion of birth as a form of ethnic identity. Yes theoretically speaking it could be changed, but religious identity is a powerful identity particularly in circumstances where discrimination or perceived discrimination is conducted on religious lines.

Put simply religion can also be an effective political identity provided certain conditions are there. And like other identities, it can form a political expression of demanding a separate state.

Demand for Pakistan ( whether we consider it as an actual demand or as bargaining ploy by Jinnah) was a consequence of an activated political identity. There were incidences which activated the Muslim identity and Congress is equally responsible for that as much as the Muslim elites.

Like ethnicity, religion can be a politically potent factor leading to possible demands of a nation state. In Pakistan’s case Muslims were also concentrated in two geographical zones (present day Pakistan and Bangladesh). While a substantial number was also dispersed all over the country there is no denying of the fact that areas forming West Pakistan ( Present day Pakistan) and East Pakistan (Bangladesh) were Muslim majority areas.

It is true that ethnic identity on its own is often a stronger motivating factor though at the time of independence there were no mass movements demanding independence on ethnic lines. In fact if demand for a nation state is only justified on ethnic lines then India itself should have been divided into many parts as there are so many languages spoken there.

Moreover, the term “partition” is misleading because India has rarely been politically a single unit. Throughout its history, there was just a loose geographical continuity which has always enabled this land to be called India. Within this geographical unit, there have been various political configurations. The right question is not whether there should have been a “partition” but rather whether the areas coming under present day Pakistan and Bangladesh should have joined Indian federation ( as visualized by Congress) or not.

So there were in reality various identities emerging out of Indian subcontinent. There was a broader Indian identity, religious identities, and ethnic linguistic identities. In other words there have always been nations within a nation. And then there is a concept of hybrid identity. It is not important for many to be just Muslims but rather they want their religious freedom as well as their ethnic and cultural independence. So I may be Muslim but at the same time I would prefer that my Punjabi cultural freedom is also safeguarded.

When Bengali and Sindhi Muslims voted for Pakistan (after all let’s not forget that these two provinces clearly voted for Pakistan), the idea was not merely preservation of their religious freedom but a combination of both religious as well ethnic/cultural freedoms. Thus when Bengali Muslims (who were also geographically concentrated) voted for creation of Pakistan, it was also for the preservation of their Bengali identity along with religious identity.

The choice was to join Indian federation or join Pakistan. Those who voted for Pakistan joined Pakistan with the view that perhaps their ethnic and cultural freedom would be better safeguarded in Pakistan rather than India.

The reason why Bangladesh came into being is less to do with fallacy of two nation theory but more with how actually West Pakistan treated East Pakistanis. It is not the idea itself but the way Pakistan tried to over centralize and negate Bengali culture and their ethnic identity. Pakistan superimposed Urdu over Bengali and adopted a policy of sustained repression. Bengalis seceded mainly because of the way we treated them. The discrimination activated the Bengali nationalism and led to secession. But once again it was the hybrid identity of both Islam and Bengali ethnicity which dictated the choice of independence rather than merger with India. What had earlier prompted them to opt for Pakistan, once again led them to become an independent state.

The two nation theory would have been discarded IF Bengalis had opted to join India in 1971 rather than opting for going independent.

Personally I think history is yet to give its verdict about the two nation theory. We cannot just say that just because Bangladesh came into being therefore it is wrong.




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542 Responses to "Two Nation Theory and Creation of Bangladesh"

  1. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Kaal,
    I don’t know about Jamaat and as you have expertly cited the renowned Bose family, I am more confused about who has blood on their hands but I know for sure that if due to your mischievous commentary some people here(especially Heavy_P) burst a few arteries and die then you would be blamed. :P
    .
    Dear Petting,
    Why don’t you address the doubts I raised rather than go crazy about some non issues.
    .
    Asoka,
    Rexie is a minkey who just randomly types on a computer. He is the prophet/court jester (depending on your perspective) of PTH.

  2. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Chote
    .
    What “doubts” you raised and why should I be bothered about it? If you are confused about something, say Jamaat as you seem to imply, you should learn to practice self-help. That’s often a better way to improve than asking for help.

  3. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    HP

    You are absolutely right in as much as our own appreciation of the Bose Parivar pursuing a broadly unitary – I say, most excellent – Sarat Chandri historical theme that has been slow in building.

    In the collective endeavors of this Parivar is a determined and brave pursuit of truth and objectivity – evidenced in the works of ayesha, sugata, sarmila – and a single theme, built upon a keen Bengali sensitivity.

    That these great Sarat Chandri Bengali historians would have had nothing much to say (until now) about Jamaat-e-Islami being a “thoroughly criminal and violent organization that preaches and practices violence” does not add up.

    Unless, of course, you know something that we have missed. BTW, you did say you were a card carrying RSS member. HP, would that be right

    —————

    CM

    I hope HP lives long and usefully. Usko mere saare bengali bhaiyon ki umar lag jaye. LOL..Ok, that is just some gentle ribbing. There are Bengalis in my family, and I wouldn’t want their umar to go anywhere else :)

  4. Zainulabideen United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    @Rex Minor (February 12, 2013 at 8:38 pm)

    If my opinion is a judgement, your opinion is also a judgement. If it’s my opinion against yours, so be it. My opinion, in simple words, is that Jamaat-e-Islami played a very inhuman and an anti-human role in Bangladesh, then East Pakistan, in 1971. Jamaat-e-Islami’s terrorists, functioning under the names of Al-Shams and Al-Badr, committed all sorts of crimes, heinous crimes, and all those crimes were committed against innocent humans. This in short, is the role of Jamaat-e-Islami in Bangladesh.

  5. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Zainu

    Let’s leave it at that. Some people believe that Jamaat-e-Islami preaches and practices violence, while others believe it doesn’t. There is however, no signficant support at all for the thesis of Jamaat-e-Islami being a violent, inhuman or anti-human organization in the works of celebrated Bengali or Bengal-related historians – Ayesa, Sarmila, and Sugata Bose, each of whom has studied related events extensively.

  6. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Kaal

    Not sure if your frustration is reaching correct audience – just saying –

    Alright I am ready for the return. :)

  7. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Z,

    As Kaal said, most have no stakes in the non-subject debate! But your strong statement is a statemet and falls into the category of blasphemy. It is against the Islamic teachings to the extent that even some dingos have jumped in to state nothing but complain about their fogged trache. I abhor violence and protest against it wherever it occurs, but by your statement you are sending an invitation to violence? Do you consider yourself an innocent human?

    What have you against Madrassas in Bangla Desh? You reckon there are no madrassas which are financed, controlled and run by the christian church in a secular state like Germany? The church is the biggest employer in the federal republic of Germany, having around 1.3 million employees.

    What have you against the saudis?Is Bangla Desh not the benefactor of the Saudi aid? Saudi aid usualy has no strings attached; it does not contro or run Madrassas in foreign muslim countries.

    No one denies or should deny the genocide committed against the people of Bengla Desh. If you personaly are able to provide some clarity about those who were involved, investigated and confirmed in the bloodshed it is a different issue. The mere rhetoric and polemics in the issue is no different than those zealots from the Indian continent who are sitting queit like the sadhus, but ready to pounce on the prey as soon as it is there.

    Rex Minor

    PS I wish both Pakistan and Bangla Desh have more madrassas in their lands which teach the arabic language,humanism, ethics and morals of their religion, in addition to their languages both in reading and writing.

  8. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    May be we should start penalties for people who haven’t learned Arabic so many generations after converting to Islam – there can not be a bigger insult to Islam.

    People will learn languages like English and German for money and other reasons but don’t learn the divine language – it’s a shame.

    Penalty for who don’t learn and extra rewards by Allah who do…amen

  9. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mohan,
    What does the australian 1998 review say. The capacity of my brain is limited, I can no longer keep up with events in the distant horizon. We are in the 21st century, I have trashed all the archaic material, retaining the most important one in my memory of unlimited cpacity.

    The Europeans today are the orignals, the rest are all plagiats.

    Rex Minor

  10. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Hey, Jaali,
    .
    “That these great Sarat Chandri Bengali historians would have had nothing much to say (until now) about Jamaat-e-Islami being a “thoroughly criminal and violent organization that preaches and practices violence” does not add up. Unless, of course, you know something that we have missed. BTW, you did say you were a card carrying RSS member. HP, would that be right”.
    .
    Jaali, you have “missed” so much it’s impossible to know where to begin (were you not the one claiming earlier that more people died in Bengal than in Punjab in the partition riots?). My suggestion is that you should take some elementary history lesson from Chottu the ever pleasing Lackey who does show a better grasp of history than his self-confessed Guru Ji.
    .
    Jaal, this is actually a major problem in India, folks like you know so little about anything, and yet nothing stops you from making sweeping statements about everything just because you know how to go online and type. This is really the sad state of our “restless bold new generation” Chottu the Lackey is so enamored of and that is worrisome. Whether I am a card carrying member of RSS or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that I don’t offer my opinions without adequate knowledge about something (neither does Chottu the Lackey, as he has sometimes shown). Sadly, that is not the case with folks like you and I would have been happier if you were just an one-off example. And I don’t mean only the comments you make out of sarcasm, but a deeper, a more sinister, side of them of which, your rants with the Ahmedis (who have often been killed in droves due to religious bigotry) is a good example.

  11. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    MTG,

    There is no bigger punishment than ignorance. But you have a point and my position is that they should refrain from using Quraan as the instrument to justify their actions.

    Rex Minor

  12. Kashif United States Safari Mac OS says:

    @BAK

    //…It’s an interesting coincidence that the mullahs in Pakistan too, have their hands stained, or shall we say, soaked with the blood of innocent people…//

    Well ! That makes two things common between Pakistan and Bangladesh :

    (1) “both” are Muslim-majority nations.

    (2) Jamaat-e-Islami has the blood of “both” these nations on its hands.

    This means that Pakistan and Bangladesh are “two” nations, with “two” things in common.

  13. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ HP

    Jaali claims that all Hindus are linked to RSS, yet its a pity that the party which has its backing has been out of power since good 9 years in the centre.

    U pointed rightly, this is kind of Punjabi generalization of matters ( where they discriminate, differentiate and destroy).

  14. Fingolfin United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    CM
    I don’t doubt that the survey was conducted over a small sample size of BPL people. but guess what? That is the surveys are conducted. And then you extrapolate the data to cover a larger sample size. This might be news to you.
    And of course it is true that these states are the “usual suspects”. But they are the usual suspects for a reason. Let me ask you a straight question. Do you or do you not think that these states are more corrupt than West Bengal since independence? Do you actually think that UP and Bihar have been less corrupt than West Bengal since independence? If you do, then i will be thrilled. you seem to be a classic case study of biases infringing on inference.
    Your views are cliched because refusing point blank any theory that might be based on the caste system and this leftist idea that caste has not thrown up certain interesting characteristics in India is cliche to say the least.
    Irfan Habib, i meant ‘Medieval India: The Study of a Civilization’. He also edited ‘Akbar and His India’ which i am sure is based on the same theme.
    About Akbar, i did not at any point ask you for your homily about the great man. That you should bring it up is interesting. But i humbly decline since knowing you, there will be more holes in it than matter and we will end up arguing tangentially at which point you will no doubt cite Plutarch and Herodotus as authors i should read about Akbar just like you suggested i read Darwin ‘seminal work’ on genetics.
    About the 70′s. just read what you wrote to RHR. You wrote about ‘break up’. about balkanization. At no point in the 70′s was India heading towards a break up any more than it is now. At no point was India’s territorial integrity threatened. There were mass movements but they were all for democracy and not threatening India in any way nor was that the popular perception at the time. It is laughable to see that you think that JP was involved in ending the emergency. When Indira Gandhi lifted the emergency and called for elections, her party people were stunned as was everyone else. The reason was that it was completely out of the blue since she was sitting pretty having imprisoned all her detractors and the reigns of power were firmly in her hands. noting would have stopped from maintaining the status quo. In fact, why she lifted the emergency when everything was going exactly as she wanted is a mystery to this day. people hated it but had been reconciled to it. JP’s movement was seminal. He was a great man but to credit him with the lifting of the emergency is what one would expect from someone who depends on hearsay and does not read.
    This 70′s article theory was just ridiculous bombast on your part. You have read nothing from the 70′s that said that India is going to break up because there was no such situation. next time, think before you brag. Less than two years of emergency starting from 75 to 77 had no bearing on the country potentially breaking up.

  15. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    Quran can never be missed – its the best of the books.

  16. MilesToGo United States Safari Mac OS says:

    missed = misused

  17. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    KC, CM, HP
    .
    Cool it down, Brothers. You are all greats, the very best I have ever seen. Kaal, to you especially, your humor and ready wit are absolute pleasures. Please don’t take the occasional squabble to heart. This site will not be the same without you. We’ve lost many, Vajra, Gorki, Myth, PMA among them, even Hayyer Sb who writes only rarely. It will be a shame to lose you too for you’re one of the stellar few. In the past, CM and I, even FG, have indulged in brickbats. But then, let’s all move on. No more Sarat Bose Bengal North India and the Punjab (at least for now). Let’s shake hands, kiss, and forget. Kaal, was that much too emotional for you? Was that too much to ask?

  18. RHR United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    I agree with NC.

    As one of the editors, nothing is more painful then losing quality commentators..

    This entire article was an attempt to bring quality commentators back. It has largely succeeded and I dont want to see the effort wasted due to minor disagreements between the quality commentators.

    Regards

    Raza

  19. Mohan United Arab Emirates Safari iPad says:

    Rex,

    I did not post the link to the article about Australian. 1988 review. It is your friend Tajender who posted that as he has a habit of stealing others’ IDs.

  20. Fingolfin United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    NC
    LOL!! yes, I think that was too much to ask of them. I’m in splits thinking of HP kissing CM! haha…

  21. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    FG
    .
    Well, I didn’t mean a full blown kiss. Just a gentle touch of lips will do. Like how the Arabs do it, kiss on the cheek.

  22. Mohan United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Arab men don’t kiss on the cheeks. They rub their noses gently.
    At least in Dubai this practice is followed, not sure about other
    Arab countries.

  23. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Ok fine, they can rub their noses gently. Thanks Mohan, I always thought they kissed on the cheek. Everyday, you learn something new.

  24. Fingolfin United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mohan
    THAT IS SO WEIRD! Do you do it when you meet them? :D
    OMG! What happens when the noseless Chinese guy meets Arabs?! haha! Flat nosed, big lipped Africans?!
    For your sake I hope your nose is long enough!! :D :D

  25. Mohan United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    It sounds wierd to people who have not seen Arabs dolingthis. We see
    this regularly. And no I have not done this, we, non Arabs, shake hands when we meet any Arab. This is done among them only.

  26. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    The High Priest has spoken the last word! The night silence returns once the caravan moves on and the dogs stop barking. The time to eulogize those who are dead or missing. The normality returns to the people of the land where the children of Zeus took the refuge after escape from the occident, and where Hindu mob rules and mavericks are tolerated but not accepted which leads them to atheism and only few become enlightened.

    Indians do not shake hands but offer their hands of friendship sybolicaly. We shake hands to show that we carry no weapons and to feel the intention of the other, we embrace others to show our respect and affection and kiss each other on cheeks those who are dear to us and on lips who we love.
    Those who do not shake hands and fold them together or cross them on their breast simply demonstrate their disinterest and reservations of others. This is regarded as wierd as the mob mentality in worship and in sexism and all other social avenues of life. This was the causual factor for the TNT, though to be honest the hindus are capable of and have shown examples in integrating fully with the muslim culture of the North West of todays Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    Rex Minor

  27. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    PS
    How can the muslims avoid cow urine which is sprayed on vegitabe plants and said to be added to the bottled soda water, because it is considered healthy.

  28. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Mohans,

    Perhaps one of the Mohans should use “Mohan TOO” to avoid cofusion. Just a suggestion and nothing personal.

    Rex Minor

  29. Asoka India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    -hindus are capable of and have shown examples in integrating fully with the muslim culture of the North West of todays Pakistan and Afghanistan.-

    How?? By departing those lands? They ran for their lives terrorized by beheadings in the halaal way and AK-47s by the followers of the prophet of peace. Sick joke!

  30. Asoka India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    And, those who don’t like cow urine are welcome to get the hell out. Nobody is asking anyone to live in this country. Their bros have been eating pig and horse-meat in UK anyway.

  31. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Arabs are jahil. Allah has sprayed jahalat in that region. That is why muhammed was sent.

  32. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    NC, HP is no doubt a very good man, just a little upset with me. But he has a reason to be upset. He wishes to say something, although does not appear to be quite sure, what is making him upset.

    In the meanwhile, whatever he says about me, or you, or CM, or anyone else, he is most welcome. We are part of a family, and all of us are used to children who get upset for a while.

    (I was intrigued by HP’s claim that he is a card-carrying RSS memmber – but then a claim is nothing more than a claim.)

  33. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Ya Kaal

    U also claimed that the rape victim was a Muslim and was denied of last rites…

    U also claimed that all the Hindus in India are aligned to RSS…

    Just a claim

  34. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    yazid, I made a mistake, based on what my Siddiqui Deendari brother Dronacharya and Bengali brother Tajender had told us. Unless I am mistaken, they have themselves apologized to everyone for the error on their part. Truthful people are never afraid of acknwoledging any errors on their part. If HP’s claim of being a card-carrying member of the RSS was a similar error, it is no big deal. A small slip of the keyboard that could have occurred on any one’s computer.

  35. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kaal,

    HP is a nice man as much as NC, CM, and FF and others. What was missing in the Eulogy of the most favourite regulars was about the commonalty in their character and the civility they conveyed. Some were stubbornly steadfast in their opinions and even emotional at times but remained polite as far as it was possible. The present participants even mock and criticise anyone who comes to the aid of the maverick.

    There are definitely deep rooted reasons which call for such a behaviour,but this is a separate subject. I am not here to learn history from history students but to understand what ticks in the minds of Pakistani columnists and journalists which is taking them gradualy away from the concerns and the priorities of the various ethnic groups.
    I have also tried to remove the misgivings about Islam from the deeds of muslims and even tried to give some biological explanation of peoples behaviour.

    Rex Minor

  36. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Accepted, but that would hold true for allegations and counter allegations for everyone. Is not it???

    :) :) :)

  37. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kaal,
    In case you did not notice there are others who boast as well to represent themselves as members of RSS. Romain was the last one!

    This is something that the anglo saxons must have left in the sub-continent. GB stands for “Big Mouth” in french translation.

    Rex Minor

  38. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Rexie,

    Whom do u represent?

    Can you make your stand clear? I am just curious…

  39. Asoka India Safari iPad says:

    I never cease to be amazed by the Taliban scum’s ability to sound civilised and polite even while spouting murderous hate. This utterly cold and unfeeling barbarity!

  40. Asoka India Safari iPad says:

    yazid, do you need to ask? Rex is very obviously a card carrying member of the 2500 strong black Salafi gang who are the killer sleeper cells in cities of Germany. They are waiting for orders to ‘launch’ themselves into some Jihad somewhere or in their very own country.

  41. Asoka India Safari iPad says:

    Kaal, where has your deendari brother disappeared? Or does he now only write for NYT?. He never did apologise so please don’t manufacture alibis for him and for yourself.

  42. shimr choudhary United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Milestogo says:
    February 13, 2013 at 5:55 pm
    Arabs are jahil. Allah has sprayed jahalat in that region. That is why muhammed was sent

    correct… arabs were jahil not anymore.steve jab was arab,butrus ghalee was arab mohammed al baradee was arab.now indians are jahil.worship pns and drink gomutra.arabs have taalest and best buildings of world so the most beautiful women.inserrt shvlng in their a$$ atleast twice a day.

  43. Dark Knight Pakistan Chrome for iOS iPad says:

    @Kashif (February 13, 2013 at 12:22 am)

    Well ! That makes two things common between Pakistan and Bangladesh :
    (1) “both” are Muslim-majority nations.
    (2) Jamaat-e-Islami has the blood of “both” these nations on its hands.
    This means that Pakistan and Bangladesh are “two” nations, with “two” things in common.

    That’s an interesting conclusion to draw.

  44. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    MTG and others,

    Cut it off. People are taking you seriously and you are unnecessarily entering into the realm of provocations.

    I do not take you or the other riffrafs seriously, but people from your part of the world may. Most Indians are expert in polemics, ignorance of past history and have not the ability to appreciate the present nor have the foresight for the future. They have not the appeciation of what the arabs gave to the European continent at the time when people lived in our part of the world like barbarians, most were peasants but did not know how to till the land or irrigate it economicaly and were illetrates and few of the rich class were barons and land owners whose life was with courtisans and several mistresses, wine and sex on the menu and every now and then on the prowl to plunder others from their land and property.

    Inquisition is the term which comes to my mind which the cathlolic chuch embarked on against muslims and jews in Spain and the many crusades it proclaimed and organised against the so called Barbarian Arabs. The Byzantinian empire had to be defeated and the military advancement in the European lands had to continue until the time the Habsburger holy empire offered to pay the tributes to the Turkish sultan who then agreed to lift the siege at Wien.

    The inquisition of the christian church never stopped todate, within the christian community and outside, the jews and the muslims in the forefront. It was the last samurai Pope Bendict who under the influence of the evangelist christians of the USA and his intensive love of history books, reminded the muslims that the war of the clergy against Islam is stil on. It was King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia who paid a visit to the Vatican to remind the Benedict sixteen that he is also the head of the state and should use common sense if the intellect cannot keep up with his age and failing health and he should concentrate on reforming his institution as well as perform his missionary obligations to sprea the word of God in the world of non-believers. He warned him that the society will not survive as we are used to if God, the creator is no longer in the middle of our communities. The social gaps without the belief shall widen and so on. The Pope was invited to Istanbol, where he prayed together with the muslim Priest in the blue mosque, thereby taking a step towards reconciiation.

    The unending story goes on…

    Rex Minor

  45. Rex Minor Germany Google Chrome Windows says:

    MTG and others,

    Cut it off. People are taking you seriously and you are unnecessarily entering into the realm of provocations.

    I do not take you or the other riffrafs seriously, but people from your part of the world may. Most Indians are expert in polemics, ignorance of past history and have not the ability to appreciate the present nor have the foresight for the future. They have not the appeciation of what the arabs gave to the European continent at the time when people lived in our part of the world like barbarians, most were peasants but did not know how to till the land or irrigate it economicaly and were illetrates and few of the rich class were barons and land owners whose life was with courtisans and several mistresses, wine and sex on the menu and every now and then on the prowl to plunder others from their land and property.

    Inquisition is the term which comes to my mind which the cathlolic chuch embarked on against muslims and jews in Spain and the many crusades it proclaimed and organised against the so called Barbarian Arabs. The Byzantinian empire had to be defeated and the military advancement in the European lands had to continue until the time the Habsburger holy empire offered to pay the tributes to the Turkish sultan who then agreed to lift the siege at Wien.

    The inquisition of the christian church never stopped todate, within the christian community and outside, the jews and the muslims in the forefront. It was the last samurai Pope Bendict who under the influence of the evangelist christians of the USA and his intensive love of history books, reminded the muslims that the war of the clergy against Islam is stil on. It was King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia who paid a visit to the Vatican to remind the Benedict sixteen that he is also the head of the state and should use common sense if the intellect cannot keep up with his age and failing health and he should concentrate on reforming his institution as well as perform his missionary obligations to spread the word of God in the world of non-believers. He warned him that the society will not survive as we are used to if God, the creator is no longer in the middle of our communities. The social gaps without the belief shall widen and so on. The Pope was invited to Istanbol, where he prayed together with the muslim Priest in the blue mosque, thereby taking a step towards reconciiation.

    The unending story goes on…

    Rex Minor

  46. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Rex, you bring a much-needed, fascinating and powerful ‘internationalist’ dimension to our rather narrow (and often narrow-minded) discussions here. Thank you.

    This seamless, muti-threaded tapestry of global and local progressive consciences represented by you and Indian Muslims (whether one agrees with them or not) is the most fruitful and wonderful force.

    —————–

    But if it is ok with you, of necessity, I am going to force the discussion down to a narrower base again. That is where ultimately ‘rubber meets the road’.

    Rex, the uncomfortable (to some) fact is, our Hindu friends have historically been accused of lacking certain key bodily appendages. So if a few of them now take to boasting about being “RSS members”, we might want offer our sincere sympathies.

    Although any definitive conclusions must await further study, we may be looking at another aspect of the so-called TNT. Concerned not so much about whether TNT is true or not, I am personally fascinated merely by the evidence.

    —————–

    The BEST exposition of this difference was once made by Tajender/shimr choudhary. He argued that despite the extraordinary and unique challenges faced by them, Indian Muslims are brave minorities who would take no nonsense from the Hindu majority. Contrast that with the Hindus in Kashmir/Pakistan etc, who for all the rights Islamic societies give to them, are ready to cut and run at the first opportunity, perhaps more out of malice than need.

    Is that really true? I can’t say for certain, but tajender’s thesis is interesting, with a ring of truth. One can plausibly argue that strong faith in Allah, and in His promise of victory, can – at the level of groups – instil fearlessness and ‘spunk’ of the spirit that everyone’s worshipping a different million plus godlets (along with the cow) cannot.

    That fundamental difference in the ‘spirit’ of large groups, and not in their individual members’ eating or non-eating of cow itself, that Jinnah refered to in his famous, though muddled delineation of the TNT.

    A Muslim may accept it or reject it, but a Hindu finds it very hard to “get it” (for simply ‘moral’ reasons – whatver his or her concept of morality is).

  47. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    If Allah would have existed he would not have allowed people to create Sunnis, Shias, Ahmdeiyas, Khojas, barelvis, deobandis. Moreover (s/he) would not have created the sea of difference between male and female. S/he would have stopped brutal in killings between “Muslims”.

    Thankfully a plural society offers good point of views. Just for your eyes only

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDqfzS7Bbo

  48. Romain United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Rexie,

    I dont boast. I am a member. Its merely a fact.

  49. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    thanks Romain you do not make false claims like Kaal does…

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