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Pak Tea House » Politics » A case for evolutionary change

A case for evolutionary change

By Saad Hafiz:

The recent “anti-establishment” rallies confirm that Pakistanis are more politically activated, politically conscious and politically interactive than ever.  It is heartening to witness the quest for personal dignity and economic opportunity in a country painfully scarred by memories of decades-long domination by the “status-quo”. The pattern is also consistent with the political turmoil and stirrings against the established order so widespread today around the world. The youth in Pakistan are particularly restless and resentful and politically alert and engaged.  The demographic revolution they embody is thus a political time-bomb, as well.  The rapidly expanding demographic bulge in the 25-year-old-and-under age bracket is creating a huge mass of impatient young people. Their minds have been stirred by sounds and images that emanate from the region and beyond and which intensify their disaffection with what is at hand.  It remains to be seen whether the recent social consciousness presents a greater or more direct challenge to entrenched and centralized power structures or it will “fizzle-out” like earlier “anti-establishment” awakenings.

It is tempting to think that Pakistan harbours revolutionary impulses that could trigger a radical transformation of politics and society.  Some may argue that Pakistan needs a revolution to overhaul the oppressive culture of corruption and impunity that continues to enrage the Pakistani masses today.  The people are victims of the same indignities that incited revolt in the Middle East: corruption, oppression, and injustice.  Successive despotic dictatorships and dynastic political governments have made the masses feel helpless and ineffectual.  A pertinent quote from Friedrich Engels applies to Pakistan: “We find two great gangs of political speculators, who alternately take possession of the state power and exploit it by the most corrupt ends — the nation is powerless against these two great cartels of politicians (add generals) who are ostensibly its servants, but in reality dominate and plunder it.”

Having said that, it is unclear whether the country would benefit if the re-discovered “peoples-power” is translated into a major shift and change, or revolution, in the political, social and economic realms.  It can be argued that the evolutionary democratic path would be far more preferable.  The recent upsurge in social consciousness is an opportunity to maintain pressure on the entrenched and centralized power structures through the ballot box to address the extraordinarily high levels of inequality in society.  Along the way, Pakistanis can help disprove Giuseppe Prezzolini, who said that “representative government is artifice, a political myth, designed to conceal from the masses the dominance of a self-selected, self-perpetuating, and self-serving traditional ruling class.”

Pakistan has the edifice of a democracy in place with a functioning legislature, independent judiciary, lively media which operates relatively free of state control and multi-party elections which are fiercely competitive. Pakistanis have solid party associations and have several organized national parties and numerous regional political parties with very strong following. This is a genuine foundation for a democracy: organized political parties and their base is an absolute precondition for any viable democratic system.  On the flip side, Pakistani democracy is a system that mostly serves the interest of “the all ambitious, prosperous and self-confident elites”. The challenge is for the prevailing democratic dispensation to evolve from just representing the elite to becoming broadly participatory as well.  Any society which claims adherence to an inclusive, participatory democracy would demand nothing less of its elected representatives.

The process of “democratic legitimation” in Pakistan will require: First, the state’s acknowledgement that it regards the citizens as the foundation of its rule and the “ultimate seat of all powers that it exercises.”  Second, that a bond links the populace to the state via the notion of citizenship: a set of general and equal entitlements and obligations vested in individuals with respect to the state, as well as the content of society’s activity and outputs. Third, “the rule of law” exists.  Law is brought into the “organization of political power and the modes of its exercise,” establishing what Max Weber called “legal-rational domination.” Fourth, opposition to the state, debates and contestation over policies, critical orientations, and expressions are legitimized and institutionalized — indeed, they are regarded as productive.  This in turn is linked to the idea of the public sphere: recognition of the rights of assembly, association, and petition. Fifth, there is the established institution of representative government based on free and fair elections.

As this happens, Pakistan itself is at a pivotal moment in its history.  The current government, ineffective as it may be, is the first government in decades that is almost there, almost about to finish its five-year term.  The upcoming May elections have the potential to begin a tradition of civilian government and peaceful transitions between democratically elected administrations.  A mass potentially violent revolution is the last thing Pakistan needs at this stage.  The best path forward for Pakistan, reformative as it might be, is not to ask and hope for a mass revolution but the continuation of the process in the form of timely held general elections. Only democratic continuity will enable Pakistan to strengthen its civilian institutions and build its political and public sphere.

 

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115 Responses to "A case for evolutionary change"

  1. bacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Evolutionary change also means that you have to stop worshipping some self-glorifying tribal god or book from the 7th century. Religions are by nature anti-evolution. Islam and its followers-victims are especially angry-violent in their rejection of evolution, innovations, new ideas, new facts and realities.

    Religions are absolutist-totalitarian and finalist-fascistic (to different degrees) and the worst and most dangerous case today is islam.

  2. secular change United States Safari Mac OS says:

    evolutionary change depends on random mutation that adapt as environment changes.
    In your case you are asking for secular change.

    What pakistani liberals don’t seem to realize is that Pakistan Army
    has radicalized itself and has outsourced destruction of minorities
    and liberals to militancy. They have created a self-sustaining business
    which doesn’t require your presence.
    It seems you don’t know that you can’t reason with the Army but you keep
    writing these kind of articles.

    Land of Pure needs to be purified ever more so that victory can be achieved
    against Kafirs.

  3. bacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to secular change

    In case of human minds we cannot talk of random mutations. The change comes purposefully, with some goal in mind. The society has to appreciate it and encourage the good ones and prevent/stop the bad ones.

    In case of islam-based societies, the situation is hopeless. Islam indoctrinates the muslims that 7th century Madinah-Makkah under Mohammad is the final achievement of and for all of mankind for all times. No muslim dares to question or set aside this dangerous and fascistic idiocy. Thus muslims and islam have become a nuisance everywhere. But the huge number of idiots on the earth, esp. in muslim lands, means that things will get worse.

    You can call it negative evolution under islam!

  4. Tajender United Arab Emirates Google Chrome Windows says:

    Jammu & Kashmir’s accession to India is complete and Constitutional
    -
    The partition of the Indian subcontinent should be seen in the perspective of the Anglo-Muslim alliance that was forged by the British to retain their strategic foothold in the Indian subcontinent to have an access to the Russian activities and the appreciable influence on the Central Asian region mainly in terms of oil reserves. As the oil reserves were in the domain of the Central Asian and Middle Eastern Islamic countries and regions, the British encouraged the separatist Muslim sentiment in India to impress the Muslim world and at the same time kept the nationalist movement for the Indian independence under check, which the British viewed as the ‘Hindu Nationalist’ upsurge.

    Kashmir problem is the outcome of the ‘Great Game’ which the British played to keep the separatist Muslim element alive to keep its stakes high even though World War II had changed the dynamics of the strategic world order. This move was further meant to make the north-Indian borders weak and pregnable forever and the result is the present Kashmir crisis. It was a clear move to sow the seeds of the balkanisation of the Indian Union.

    The process of maintaining the checks and applying brakes on the Indian nationalists had been devised by the British well before 1947 and Jinnah was a British prop to materialise the separatist Muslim claims for the partition of India.

    These ploys and what was going on in the British mind has been revealed by Krishna Menon, who was close to the British circles, in the following words to Lord Mountbatten well before the partition on June 14, 1947, ”Is this frontier of (the northwest of India abutting Afghanistan & Iran) still the hinterland of the Imperial Strategy? Do British still think in terms of being able to use this territory and all that follows from it? There is considerable amount of talk in this way; and if Kashmir, for one reason or another, chooses to be in Pakistan, that is a further development in this direction. I do not know of British policy in this matter. I do not know whether you know it either. But if this be the intent, this is tragic … As it becomes more evident, the attitude of India would be resentful and Britain’s hold on Pakistan would not improve it.” (pp.15-16, The Untold Story of India’s Partition)

    Menon was pointing towards the British strategy of using West Pakistan as a base to stop the Soviet expansion towards the Indian Ocean, Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf and secondly he implied that British policy was so ‘subterranean“ that even the Viceroy was ignorant of it? These intrigues shaped the Kashmir problem and result is the present state of chaos and desperation.

    Accession of the Jammu & Kashmir State to the Indian Union needs to be understood by keeping in mind the traits of the British and the separatist Muslim mindset of the Muslim League nurtured by the imperial policy makers to divide India to suit their strategic hold on the subcontinent.

    There is a false premise on which Jammu & Kashmir’s accession to India is always understood by certain vested interests: “That the Radcliffe Boundary Commission award giving Gurdaspur District to the Indian East Punjab was announced on August 17, 1947, two days after the new Dominions of India and Pakistan had already come into being.” This is totally absurd.

    The demarcation of the areas that would go to Pakistan had already been decided by the British well before 1947, the year of the partition. Its blueprint was prepared by the Viceroy Lord Archbald Wavell in 1946 to forge an alliance with Jinnah’s Muslim League, the foundation of this unholy alliance was laid in 1940-41 by his predecessor Linlithgow to project Jinnah as the sole spokesman of ‘Muslim India’.

    The same blueprint was kept under cover till the opportune time came in 1947 for the British withdrawal. It was deliberately kept in abeyance so that the finger of suspicion for the vivisection of India is not raised against the British Empire.

    Narender Singh Sarila, who was an ADC to the last Viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten, was a witness to the British decisions and policy. Has observed candidly in his book The Untold Story of India’s Partition that “secret archives cannot be depended upon to reveal the entire picture. Many decisions that are taken by government are never committed on paper or, if so committed, are not revealed even after the probationary period for keeping them under wraps has lapsed. For instance, Lord Mountbatten’s reports to London, sent after August 15, 1947, while he was the governor-general of India, have not been unsealed even after almost sixty years, thereby depriving us of information surrounding British policy on Kashmir“.(pp.168,The Untold Story of India’s Partition)

    Lord Wavell was constantly in touch with the Secretary of State in London. His blueprint for the partition was being taken seriously in London. On January 29, 1946, the Secretay of State revealed the British policy by stating, in a telegram to Wavell, that ”It would help me to know when I may expect to receive your recommendation as regards definition of genuinely Muslim areas if we are compelled to give a decision to this (Partition)”. (pp.194-195,The Untold Story of India’s Partition)

    Gurdaspur district was not incorporated into the Indian Union after the partition, Wavell’s partition plan forwarded to London on February 6-7, 1946 makes it clear as to what was in store for millions of people of the Indian subcontinent. His partition plan which was implemented by his successor Lord Mountbatten reads ”1) If compelled to indicate demarcation of genuinely Moslem areas I recommend that we should include (a) Sind, North-West Frontier Province, British Baluchistan and Rawalpindi, Multan and Lahore Divisions of Punjab, Less Amritsar and Gurdaspur districts … 2) In the Punjab the only Moslem–majority district that would not go into Pakistan under demarcation is Gurdaspur. Gurdaspur must go with Amritsar for geographical reasons and Amritsar being the sacred city of Sikhs must stay out of Pakistan…” (pp.195,The Untold Story of India’s Partition)

    Therefore it becomes clear that the decision regarding the Gurdaspur district was taken well before partition and the argument regarding its inclusion in the Indian Union after the partition does not hold any ground as it is far from the historical fact made amply clear by Lord Wavell’s partition plan.

    So the point raised by the fifth columnists and other left liberal intellectuals that “Maharaja Hari Singh could not accede to the newly created Indian Dominion and the Indian Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru could not accept such a request on or before August 15, 1947 because under the provision of July 1947 Indian Independence Act passed by the British Parliament, Pathankot tehsil at that time, the only geographical link of Jammu & Kashmir, was located in Gurdaspur District of west Punjab which had been notified under the aforesaid Act as part of Pakistan“is falsification of the reality.

    Another observation by these individuals that “The Maharaja Sahib had therefore no other option than to think of Standstill Agreement with both new dominions of India and Pakistan and making Jammu & Kashmir an Eastern Switzerland of Asia“ is another misinterpretation of constitutional realities and the facts. As India under the British was composed of British India and the Princely States which accepted the British rule, the rulers of these States were thus bound to accede to one of the dominions and there was no provision for their independent existence. The celebrated political scientist MK Teng, in the preface to his book titled Kashmir: the Myth of Autonomy has cleared this misconception regarding the accession of Jammu & Kashmir and other Princely States to the Indian Union. He writes, “The partition of India did not envisage the accession of the Princely States to the dominion of India and Pakistan on the basis British India was divided. The partition of India left the States out of its scope and the transfer of power accepted the lapse of the Paramountcy: the imperial authority the British exercised over the States. The accession of the States to India was the culmination of a historical process which symbolised the unity of the people in the British India and the Indian States”. (pp.VII, Kashmir-Myth of Autonomy)

    It is a populist view in order to cover the truth regarding the accession that Maharaja Hari Singh was trapped and was hence indecisive to accede to India. To clear this misconception further Teng writes, ”In 1947, when Jammu & Kashmir acceded to India, the ruler of the State, Maharaja Hari Singh signed the same standard form of the Instrument of Accession, which the other major Indian States signed. The accession of the State to India was not subject to any exceptions or pre-condition to provide for any separate and special constitutional arrangements for the State. Neither Nehru nor Patel gave any assurances to Hari Singh or the National Conference leaders that Jammu & Kashmir would be accorded a separate and independent political organisation on the basis of the Muslim Majority character of its population.” (pp.VII, Kashmir-Myth of Autonomy)

    Thus it is crystal clear that the accession of the Jammu and Kashmir State to the Indian Union is complete in the Constitutional manner

  5. Muslims Against Islam Netherlands Google Chrome Ubuntu Linux says:

    Islam teaches ‘continuous revolution’. Continuous revolution leads to destruction. That is how Islam destroys societies.

    Pakistan is trying to save itself by painfully realizing that the destructive ideology of Islam is incompatible with nation states.

  6. secular change United States Safari Mac OS says:

    @Bacon,

    “In case of human minds we cannot talk of random mutations. The change comes purposefully, with some goal in mind. The society has to appreciate it and encourage the good ones and prevent/stop the bad ones.”

    I gave the definition of evolutionary change. But since you don’t seem to know that 98% of brain function is unconscious (automatic) so your prescriptions misses the mark by a wide margin.

    Take for example secular society. Europe because secular only because Kings and Clergy were fighting each other for “First Thirty Year War”. meanwhile the merchants were getting rich via trade in arms and going to India directly and stealing from Africa and Americas. So when war was over they demanded say in running things. There was no conscious reason that Priest and King would give up power to the lower class voluntarily. All these Liberal articles presumes that Pakistan can simply follow Western model of democracy and poof everything magically be cured.

    Pakistan founders thought that simply squeezing money out of US without understanding
    the economic system mainly banking and investing would mean that Pakistan would be
    treated like a two dollar whore whether they have nuclear weapon or not.
    If Pakistan goes to Chinese, they will be treated even worse than KSA is treating them.

  7. This article is well-written and very apropos and timely. But as Gandhi said: If you do nothing, nothing will happen.

    And any elections where the leaders/parsites .. rather
    pompous geedars who claim to follow the masses and are engaged in
    looking after melonfields .. will be the same sorry lot that has
    misrulerd pakistan for some sixty years , i e, since the demise of nawabzada liaqat ali khan, with drastic and scaring results.
    our present geedarship has abnoxioously been busy turning/converting to virtual paw-kiss-satan. i hope thatour younger generation will see a seachange and in pakistan, to wit: its exploiters and its unjustly-enrich laterday Elite .. exemplarily hung mercilessly by their necks from the trees.
    Que Sera Sera and Status Quo Worshipping has been our albatross and mangolsuttr….

  8. bacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to secular change

    When you write that 98% of the brain function is unconscious (automatic) then are we to assume that 98% of your comment is to be discarded?

    This 98% refers to automatic bodily functions like breathing, digesting etc. It is not relevant to “thinking or mind”.

    So human evolution is of the body, and of the mind. The latter however is an entity that is difficult to describe. Many even dismiss its very existence or purpose. Some differentiate between conscious and unconscious and subconscious minds. That is a vast scheme.

    The article here refers clearly to change/evolution of the pakistani mind – not of the digestive functions of the pakistanis.

    But the pakistani mind is trapped under the rubble of islam. And some pakistanis are importing more rubble and rubbish (from their “beloved brothers” – arabs, turks, jihadis, chinese etc.) and dumping it on the pakistani mind. The rubble is heavy and has sharp edges and any “liberating” move (in whichever direction) causes atrocious pain and blood-loss.

    It is a situation where one ceases to be “poetic”.

  9. kaalabhartibhai India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    tajender, I’m glad you have been reading Narendra Singh Sarila’s book , “Untold story of India’s Partition”. All of us in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh must read it as well as Madhusree Mukherjee’s “Churchill’s Secret War” and the numerous writings of Rajmohan Gandhi. I must draw attention to some omissions in your post:

    (a) Sarila does say that Wavell was bluffing when he said he would please other Muslims in the Mideast by agreeing to Pakistan. Sarila records that most Arabs regarded Jinnah as a British puppet.

    (b) Hari Singh like all the maharajahs was a British bootlicker. Not a single Maharajah joined the freedom struggle. Hari singh refused to grant an appointment to Gandhi in june 1947. One month later, he found that he had the time to receive Mountbatten. Hari singh was part of the problem. And we should not have agreed to this business of these rogues “acceding” or “not acceding” to anybody. They had no army, the Indian army would not have obeyed the british, and british soldiers would havew refused to open fire. (In 1950, Egyptian police in Ismailia revolted, the Brits flew in troops from Mauritius and they refused to open fire).

    (c) Gilgit/Baltistan accounts for most of J&K area. There was not a single Pak soldier or raider there, the Pak flag was raised by Major Brown, an englishman. India dropped all air raids on mGilgit in November 1947, after a “presentation” by air marshall Elmhirst, Chief of Staff of IAF. “Presentation” was to the cabinet including nehru,patel and Shyamaprasad Mookherjee. And Gilgit is 75% Shia, while All-India council of Shia Imams had voted in 1946 against partition.

    (d) Bhaiyon, it is the gorachamda who is behind all this.

    (e) Bangladesh Shahbagh revolt demanding capital punishment for war criminals explodes completely the two-nation theory. Mind you, TNT is there in the preamble to India Independence Act, placed there by the gorachamdas, after they told Nehru all along that “we appreciate your principles, but adjust as a temporary expedient”. Nehru & Patel were silent on these words in the Act. Only Gandgi objected.

    (f) Churchill, the butcher of bengal, needs to be completely exposed for his blocking relief and slaughtering 6 million people in Bengal. Pakistan press also needs to cover adequately the shahbagh revolt as well as the recent findings of scholars about churchill

    (g)Tajender’s criticism of “left. liberal” intellectuals may not be warranted. In fact, Stalin in 1951 told Communist leader Rajeswar Rao ‘” Pakistan is an underhand trick played on you people by the British”.

    (h)We had no business to agree to Mountbatten rigging a referendum (for that wqs what it was) in NWFP and placing it in Pakistan

    (i)My objection to Jinnah is less than it its to Churchill/Wavell/Brits, Jinnah until 1930 was a staunch nationalist. Too bad that from 1940 on he entered into dealings with the brits. Congress should hv supported Fazlul Haque who would hv become a solid Muslim leader even if outside Congress. Nehru, in fact, wanted Fazlul Haque as a Minister in interim govt but Wavell lost himself in fury. Subash Bose wanted congress to support Haque in 1937 in Bengal, but G D Birla (another baleful influence on Gandhi, who never went to jail for freedom unlike so ,many industrialists who did in south India)stalled it.Friends, history of India could hv been different

    (j) we need to come together as three independent friendly neighbours and see that the gorachamda does’nt come between us

  10. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Here comes another RSS-type would-have, should-have, could-have pseudo-analysis, which then ends on the familiar Hindu extremist note – blame the color of the skin for all conflict at home.

    (1) On what basis do we assume Tajender hates gorachamda more than he hates the visible Hindu?

    (2) Jinnah did not stop being the so-called ‘staunch nationalist’ for some unknown ‘too bad’ reasons. He saw the rise of the visible Hindu. Of the so-called gorachamda and the visible Hindu, he simple preferred gorachamda.

    (3) Please abandon your continuing Hindu nightmares. Wake up. Gora Chmada is not anymore, if it ever did, coming between India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and preventing delusional “we-are-a-happy-family” Hindus from singing kum ba ya forever.

    So long as extremist Hindus keep buying these absurd pseudo-explanations and hopes, TNT will not require any additional proof.

  11. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Allow me to violate one of my sacred principles. And make things clearer than they should be allowed to be.

    The Brits did not create the TNT. They simply exploited it since it already existed. They would have been absolutely stupid not to do so.

  12. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    I sometimes despair to think: when will Hindus realize that human beings are not driven primarily by the color of their skin, the food they eat or the languages they speak at any particular point in time, but by the strength of their abiding ideas. Even the widespread practice of racism first requires the construction of an enduring ideology.

    This fear of looking ideas straight into the face, as they are, is the most despicable thing about modern Hinduism.

  13. beacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    kaal writes

    “I sometimes despair to think: when will Hindus realize that human beings are not driven primarily by the color of their skin, the food they eat or the languages they speak at any particular point in time, but by the strength of their abiding ideas. Even the widespread practice of racism first requires the construction of an enduring ideology.”

    You don’t notice the contradiction in your own statement.

    Race, food, language, dress, relatives, caste, class etc. are themselves >very very abiding ideas< – even more than religion or religious propaganda. Otherwise we would have got rid of them long ago.

    Ridiculing hindus and ignoring the defects and idiocies in islam and muslims has become your closed-minded attitude and passion. Facts and reality are alien to you. Hindu religions contain a lot of defects and deficiencies – but islam is far worse on this count. Hinduism is reformable, islam is finalist-arrogant and hence non-reformable.

    So if you are honest then your despair should be more about islam and about those enslaved under its finalist fascism.

    It explains why non-arab muslims (esp. from Pakistan) are such honour-less self-deceivers and bootlickers of arabs.

  14. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    Non-Arab Muslims are not honor-less self-deceivers and bootlickers of Arabs. Their’s is a different concept of honor and bootlicking than your Hindus’. Understanding this fundamental difference in conceptions of reality around all of us is key to understanding Two Nation Theory.

    A believer in Islam, for instance, would say, in the words of Syyed Mohumed Jawaid Iqbal Geoffrey of Slarpore, Brighton and Pacific Palisades, that you Hindus are caught in the slavery of the Mangalsutra.

  15. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    @ Kaal

    U never replied the difference among Ashraf/ Ajlaf and Arzal.

    If Muslims believe in single God why so many paths. Why such fluidity in approaching Allah.

    Also kindly explain why in recent past Hazaras are being butchered in Balochisthan and why there is a separatist movement in Balochistan?

  16. kaalchakra United States Google Chrome Ubuntu Linux says:

    I feel guilty taking up so much bandwidth on issues that are so basic and “part of the background” that they are taken for granted by anyone who takes time to learn about them. Perhaps one needs a separate forum for the education of so many unbelievers.

    Yazid, there is no ‘fluidity’ in Islam. Fluidity resides in individual human understanding and human being. There is only one correct path – the most straightforward, true, and the best. Different people follow the path that they think is that true path. This is not the trivial issue that you Hindus think it is. It is and has ALWAYS been a matter of life and death. People don’t fight for ‘no reason’.

    Ashraf/Ajlaf/Arzal whatever else you mentioned are not castes. The central goal of ALL of Islam is implementation of virtue and forbidding of vice in personal and social life. Virtue and vice are defined in terms of any objects’ proximity to and distance from Islam, Allah, Prophet Muhmmad, and the Quran. If virtue is to be safeguarded and vice is to be effectively forbidden then power must safely reside in the hands of those who are closest to Islam, Allah, Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, and must be kept farthest away from away from those who are distant from the same. That should explain to you everything that confuses you about so-called social-differentiation. Directly and indirectly, faith, identity, and power are not, and simply cannot be separate (unless one totally abandons this entire framework of identity and belief which simply does NOT depend upon what anyone else thinks, believes, or does, except as those thoughts, beliefs, and actions are continually interpreted and presented in relative proximity to Islam by people who naturally have their own interests and relative positions to advance and defend).

    It is sad how much unnecessary conflict and pain, and wasted effort, on all sides this failure to grasp the basics causes in this world. Hindu blind obsession with language, food, clothes of the moment – all probably important in their own places – makes for two ideologies which are particularly hard to think across. :(

  17. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    That’s the point Kaal

    your long replies still divides “believers” in to Punjabis, Sindhi,Bengalis, Somalis, Arabs, farsis. Still the believers are divided to conclude that who is worthy successor of Prophet Mohammed. Some still believe that Jesus would come for judgement day ( unfortunately by law their Ahmediyas , do not have a right to call themselves Muslims). Still believers have to kill other believers in Quetta to justify that they are righteous.

    Hindus are not blind, its people like who are blind…

  18. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    yazid, What I described were two alternate ways of looking at all social reality around us. The failure of modern Hinduism lies in its persistent inability to grasp the EXISTENCE of those powerful, ful-fledged alternate and radically different social visions.

    We are not picking winners or losers here. Obviously, as an unbeliever and lacking strong faith-based identity yourselves, you find the Hindu vision more appealing. The whole (and perhaps the only) point here is that your vision is not the vision of everybody – not even of someone as rational, modern, progressive as Jinnah was, or Tajender is. These are not ‘evil’ people, and their justice-based arguments are compelling enough to draw quite a few people ‘in the middle’ to them.

    ————

    Even if I fail to make any impression, I must beg off of stealing any more space on this subject on this board. :)

  19. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    what ever Kaal

    Just compare the GDP, HDI and GINi

    India is growing, Pakistan is waning

    Thankfully India is secular
    not a bigot/ maggot like u

    Pakistan is diminishing
    :) :) :)
    Ashraf Ajlaf Arjal
    shia Sunni Ahmedia
    Punjabi SIndhi Pakhtun
    hehehehehe
    alll fallacies are falling apart in all your failures
    Are u dreaming???

    India is too big for u to tackle

  20. yazid United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    beta intellectual masturb..ion is different an practical situation is different
    I am afraid if u get sahadat by any allah loving group in few hours

  21. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    Kaalchakra, in your wooly-headed narrative on the conflict of ideals between Islam and Hindusim you have missed Bangladesh entirely. Being from Lucknow, and as the flip side of the same coin as your fellow Lucknowi tajender, I don’t find your ignorance surprising at all. This same (greater) north Indian ignorance of Muslim Bengal was instrumental to the Congress Party’s rejection of Fazlul Haque, a strong socialist leader and founder of the staunchly secular Krishok Proja Party, KBB talks about. Hearing about the massive pro-secularism Shahbag Square movement, this same mind boggling ignorance among many Indians lead them to ask on the social media pages about the persecution of Hindus in the former East Pakistan, blissfully unaware that that was a thing of the past when the average Bengali-speaking Bangladeshi had little say in the workings of their part of the country.
    .
    Kaalchakra, Bangladesh seems different from the other Muslim majority countries in the world. It is the only country with a 90% Muslim population that actually chooses to be secular if democracy is allowed to flourish rather than the other way round as in Egypt and Pakistan. Sure it has its own share of fanatics, like we have the Bajrang Dal and the Abinabh Bharat, but it is the only Muslim country in the world where those demanding the death of the blasphemers died recently of police firing rather than the so-called blasphemers themselves. KC, Islam may be the dominant religion of Bangladesh but religion as a source of your trumpeted conflict of ideals seems to be largely absent in that country. As a notorious anti-Hindu and anti-India (but Bangladesh-neutral) Christian American blogger recently wrote,
    .
    (httpcolondoubleslashrobertlindsay.wordpress.comslash2012slash02slash17/bangladesh-a-muslim-country-ruined-by-hinduism-hindu-culture/),
    .
    “Bangladesh is a Muslim country ruined by Hinduism”
    ………………………………………………………….
    Xera, an Egyptian-American, talks about when he took a recent trip to Bangladesh recently. What was obvious to me was that this place has problems that go far beyond those of a typical Muslim country.
    .
    In fact, this Muslim country doesn’t seem all that Muslim at all! It seems like a Hindu country or a country with some other non-Muslim culture instead. The shocking truth is that Muslim culture has probably made few inroads at all into Bangladesh. For all their praying and fasting, Bangladeshis may as well have just stayed Hindus and saved themselves some time and some pangs. It also shows that you can’t look at the religion of a country and decide what kind of culture it has.
    .
    For Bangladesh is a Muslim country that lacks a Muslim culture. Instead, it’s a country where the religion is Muslim but the culture is Hindu. It’s amazing since Bangladeshis have been Muslims for probably 500 years, yet Islam has hardly made a dent in the place. And once again, this post shows how deadly and ruinous Hindu culture really is.”.
    .
    Obviously the narrator above is talking about the face of an “Islamic” Bangladesh as seen here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BD_Dance.jpg). Kaalchakra, returning to your oft-trumpeted conflict of ideas etc I don’t want to revisit history, but your posts illustrate the sheer magnitude of ignorance held by most Indians (and the leaders of the Congress Party pre-independence were no exception) about areas and cultures outside the confines of their own regional consciousness.

  22. heavy_petting United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    You being from Lucknow, and as the flip side of the same coin as your fellow Lucknowi tajender, I don’t find your ignorance surprising at all.

  23. beacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to kaalchakra

    you wrote:

    “There is only one correct path – the most straightforward, true, and the best.”

    and

    “If virtue is to be safeguarded and vice is to be effectively forbidden then power must safely reside in the hands of those who are closest to Islam, Allah, Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, and must be kept farthest away from away from those who are distant from the same.”

    What you write exposes islam as a fiercely-radically totalitarian, imperialist, fascist, arrogant ideology.

    You assume/believe islam is the final perfect ideology and guidance. If islam had been a new young religion then we could have given islam and muslims the benefit of the doubt and a chance to practise and demonstrate their ideology.

    But islam is already 1400 years old and wherever islam possesses any power the situtation is sliding down into an abyss of more fascism, violence, briberies, deceits, irrationality and blame-the-infidels self-deceit and so on.

    When can we start expecting honesty from muslims? And when can we start expecting that muslims will learn to live without anger, arrogance, self-glorification or irrationality? And when can we expect that from your own person?

    I am not saying other religions/ideologies are faultless. But let us not waste ourselves in comparisons and help you dodge the evil issues in islam and the worsening of life under islam.

  24. Moin Ramiz Pakistan Google Chrome Windows says:

    nothing will change unless each one of us changes.

  25. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    HP,

    Nothing in Bangladesh, or in the history of Bengal, contradicts to the smallest degree anything I have written. I

  26. lord of the rings India Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kaal
    I have started getting worried about you now. Please please please assure me that there is nothing to worry and you remain the same and you have succeeded in fooling me too.

  27. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    To all those who think Bangladesh is somehow unique

    Bangladesh is simply trying to be what Jinnah hoped all of Pakistani would become. In other words, Bangladesh is attempting to perfect Jinnah’s TNT. Just as people who run and write for the Hindu Tribune hope would happen for Pakistan. There is nothing unique in that Islamic desire and goal.

    Historically/religiously, Bangladesh is where Punjab was around 1890s or so. Its great advantage over Punjab of that time is that absolute power has already been safeguarded in the hands of Muslims, and there are only 10% or so Bengali Hindus to threaten it.

    (Amazing that anyone would think that Shahbag Square is a rejection of TNT. Is there any doubt that Jinnah himself would have ordered the biggest guns be fired upon those Muslims who made his own personal life inconvenient?)

  28. Skeptic India Safari iPad says:

    A Hindu is free to believe or disbelieve anything and is , therefore , incapable of understanding the mind of a ” true believer”.

  29. yazid United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Kaal

    All these divisive thinking comes from your polluted brain. All societies, nation state are heterogeneous. Your blah blah would not change it. Even within Bangladesh Chakma people are different than Chittagong. Sylheti is a different case altogether. Peer and Sufism and Lalon led Baul culture hold the community together. Lalon says “Joler upor pani na Panir upor jol”, Kaalir upor Ali, na Alir upor Kali”. You are a pathetic person who does not understand basic principles of humanity and spews venom. All the nations are progressing except the ones with fanatics like you. After TNT India and Bangladesh still maintain a good railway system. What about Paksitan? India made its own railway engines by late 50s. Thats why you do not have a single Jinnah statue in Bangladesh :) :) :)

  30. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    skeptic

    The problem is that ‘good’ Hindus and Muslims completely misunderstand each other, and make faulty assumptions about ideologies. A ‘good’ Hindu like Gandhi thinks that ‘true faith’ is just another caste or ethnic community. A ‘good’ Muslim is willing to allow, for his or her own personal interpretation, that Hindus might be following some watered down or primitive version of Islam.

    This utter confusion is tragic beyond words, and is facilitated by I-don’t-care-to-learn fools and active deceivers.

    —————

    Yazid, can you explain to us how sufis in Bangladesh have been any different from Sufis anywhere else? What has been their role in opposing TNT?

    I hope you have read my argument that TNT came to Bengali Muslims far before it came to Jinnah. Tajender proceeds Jinnah and doesn’t need to build Jinnah’s statues. This is another reason why Jinnah’s forcing his ways upon Bengali Muslims was a bit unfortunate and short-sighted.

  31. yazid United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Kaal, you love arguments

    If idolatry is haram, why do you have Jinnah statues? Why do people have a painting of Mecca. If a religion denounces rituals, why do people still kill animals in the name of sacrifice? Why is it necessary to copy the act of searching for water in a desert?

  32. yazid United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    well what I understand about Islam is
    “maintaining kindness and mutual respect with all cultures, races, and beliefs”.

    therefore Islam does not teach people to carry hatred towards others which unfortunately many of us do… :(

  33. kaalchakra United States Mozilla Firefox Ubuntu Linux says:

    yazid

    You have well addressed a question that Beacon raised. If he sees Islam ‘failing’ for the last 1400 years (or after the Prophet, or after the Rightly Guided Caliphs etc) it is because unfortunately many Muslims do not follow Islam. There is no gurantee that TNT will not lead to much better solutions in the future once it is properly implemented.

  34. Milestogo United States Safari iPhone says:

    Muslims should start preparing for ghazwa-e-hind. Mahdi’s space ship is approaching earth.

  35. yazid United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ Kaal by your sayings

    ” it is because unfortunately many Muslims do not follow Islam”

    If they don not follow it how they are Muslims!!! :) :) :)

  36. tajender United Arab Emirates Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Skeptic says:
    February 25, 2013 at 9:12 pm
    A Hindu is free to believe or disbelieve anything and is , therefore , incapable of understanding the mind of a ” true believer”.

    hinduism is supermarket of 33 crore devtas.followers are brainless moths.

  37. Shonar Bangla United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Tajender bhai

    দয়া করে ব্যাখ্যা করুন. সত্যিকারের বিশ্বাসী যিনি? শিয়া বা সুন্নি বা Ahmediya?

    আমি মনে করি শিয়া সত্য বিশ্বাসী. কেন কারণ তারা সবসময় অনুসরণ আলী এবং হুসেন আছে

  38. Romain United States Internet Explorer Windows says:

    KC mian,

    I guess it wont matter which board you land up on, everybody will end up chasing you :)

    I know that you ar enjoying all this attention that you are getting.

    What is it with all those UPites? I guess just a missing ‘t’?

  39. Shonar Bangla United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    @ tajender

    আপনি চুপ কেন ? শিয়া ঠিক না সুন্নি . তুমি বাঙালী তো?

  40. beacon India Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    to kaalchakra

    Islam has still not failed completely because muslims are still in contact with non-muslims and get some good ideas from the non-muslims.

    The more muslims follow islam the more the two will become a nuisance.

    It is not that some muslims bring a bad name to islam – it is islam bringing idiocies and bad guidance to the muslims. Islam and muslims are surviving only by taking many good things from non-muslims. And then they are biting the hand that feeds them.

    The more the muslims follow the kuran the more they will end up in fascism, ignorance, idiocies and closed-minded-ness. Pakistan, Iran, arabs, pashtuns and even turks are proving this.

  41. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    KC
    .
    “Yazid, can you explain to us how sufis in Bangladesh have been any different from Sufis anywhere else? What has been their role in opposing TNT?”
    .
    Kaal, the “sufis” in Bangladesh are not to be found anywhere else. Take, for example, their national poet, Nazrul Islam. He penned odes to Kali and Krsna that would make even the hardest Hindu cry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8eAx93x-m8). Several of his Shyama Sangeets are among the very best in that genre. This you won’t find in a Waliullah and the same is true of Lalon Faqir.
    .
    On a different note it’s heartening to see so many Bangladeshis giving their opinions on a matter dear to them.

  42. yazid United States Google Chrome Windows says:

    Kalua a follower of Shiraz Sai (guru of Lalon)was so deeply inclined that his verses were

    “Kaali aami timar mundo khabi”

    Its hard to understand the deep devotion Sufis have. I do not think people like will Kaal ever understand. Same with Bulle Shah. Sufism is way for humanity. Unlike the boasting of true belief.

    Blessed are people who believe that humanity is a bigger religion that following some scriptures of the past which are seriously redundant in the modern age.

  43. NDelhi Singapore Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Hi NC,
    It may be helpful if you update yourself on Amir Khusrow and apart from others listen or read ” Chaap Tilak ” . No one else probably has written better on Vrindavan & Krishna than Mian Amir Khusrau…
    This info is not to belittle Nazrul islam at all.

  44. no-communal United States Mozilla Firefox Windows says:

    NDelhi
    .
    Thank you very much for the info. Sorry to have missed Amir Khusrow (and also Bulle Shah as yazid pointed out) but my comment was really out of a bit of exasperation. There were sufis who mainly sang of the one true God of Islam, but there were also many others not much different from a sadhu given to a pantheistic philosophy of worshiping all Gods of different creeds and peoples indifferently. As far as I can tell the Bangladeshi model of “sufism” is dominantly the second type.

  45. NDelhi Singapore Internet Explorer Windows says:

    Yes agree with you!!

  46. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    NDelhi,
    Just to add to your reference of Amir Khusrau, some of the most prominent ones are:
    (1) Abdul Rahim Khan-e-Khana: His poems on Krishna under nom-de-plume Rahim are as popular as those of Kabir across the heartland. The impromptu references to Rahim by even seemingly illiterate people are one of the most pleasant memories of my childhood.
    (2) Poems by RasKhan are equally popular.
    (3) Malik Muhammad Jaiyasi’s Padmavat, while not a religious literature is a secular work of profound importance and lyrical beauty.
    (4) Hasrat Mohani of “chupke chupke raat din” fame was a self proclaimed devotee of Krishna and his poems on Krishna are not as famous as Rahim but beautiful nonetheless.
    (5) Hindustani Classical Music is replete with poems and bandishes written and sung by Muslim performers. There are too many to name; my favorite, also one of the most famous, “ManMohan Brij Ko rasiya”, immortalized by Ustad Faiyaz Khan was written by his grandfather.
    (6) Even in our living memory, the screenplay for Mahabharat was written by Rahi Masoom Raza who probably understood it better than most khaki chaddiwallahs.
    .
    As an aside, I think we should take the comments of our Bengali commentators about Bengal (sans Calcutta) with a pinch of salt. Their ignorance of greater Bengal is surpassed only by their ignorance aboutthe rest of India. An excellent observation was made by Ashok Malik in his recent column about Didi.
    .
    “The Kolkata diaspora — vast, prodigious and talented as it is — has a disproportionate influence on media discourse. It has arrogated to itself the right to interpret contemporary Bengal for the state’s residents. It has wedded itself to an idea and an ideal of Bengal that never existed or is so remote it may as well be a fairy-tale. Measured against such parameters, Mamata can just never succeed. Nobody can.”
    .

  47. NDelhi Singapore Internet Explorer Windows says:

    CM,
    Thanks for extending the list but Amir Khusrow & Kabir were two names that immediatly came to mind as soon as i read NC comment and i am sure their are many others as well. I did not comment on bangladeshi model as i had no knowledge about it.
    As for your last para, isn,t this true for many other groups of intellectuals influencing all walks of life in India be it politics, religion even stock market. Their ideas and interpretations are nowhere near the ground realities or rather differnt from commonly shared ideas.

  48. Chote Miyan United States Safari Mac OS says:

    NDelhi,
    You are quite right about “intellectuals”, in general. That said, it seems a very common thing among intellectuals from Bengal to drive a very narrow narrative. At least, people outside acknowledge that there may be some other stories too that may have escaped their attention.

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