Pak Tea House » Religion » Can we pray together?
Can we pray together?
By Waqas Rafique
How does it feel to be a minority in Pakistan? I couldn’t stop wondering, knowing inside the answer isn’t very encouraging, as I enjoyed warm hospitality that my Christian friends extended while I sat in a church in the audience of about 150 followers of Jesus. With extremism and sectarianism taking hundreds of lives again, I was reminded of this visit of mine to a small church this past Christmas.
Many among the attendees were concerned their faith had earned a bad name in Pakistan because of them being associated with the alcohol trade in the country. Majority of the pastors touched upon this while leading prayers, calling upon their youth to stay away from alcohol and drugs.
It’s quite strange that mosques are heavily guarded on Fridays and Eid prayers but my hosts at first appeared secure enough or perhaps didn’t know how to ask for protection when I couldn’t spot a single security guard with a metal detector. When I asked if they weren’t scared, I was told the organizers didn’t have funds to hire any guards.
Without any awkward glances I was able to participate in prayers led by a number of pastors. This sense of inclusion particularly thrilled me because interfaith meet and greet is unheard of in Muslim religious gatherings in Pakistan. Where we might talk about harmony among different faiths and sects in our drawing rooms, I know this for a fact that many Pakistani Muslims would risk missing their prayers if they’re away from their sect’s mosque but for sure stay way from another sect’s mosque for the fear of jeopardizing their beliefs. Being tolerant of other religions in these circumstances appears next to impossible.
The question that I mentioned in the beginning is difficult for me to answer perhaps because I’m not a minority in Pakistan. The problem with the so-called majority here is that they don’t encourage dialogue or debate on inter-faith acceptability, especially on the individual level. This might be discussed in seminars where most participants are already enlightened on matters crucial for a peaceful way of life. And if you as an individual, talk about rights of minorities, your own community wouldn’t spare a minute in either branding you as ‘one of them’ or accuse you of receiving funds from somewhere or being close to anti-state elements. A price you could pay for thinking differently.
But while I enjoyed the remixed version of Jingle Bells, which I was told was sung by Indian singers, I couldn’t stop thinking about how we have a long long way to go before we can rest assured incidents such as Rimsha Masih, Gojra, Hazara killings and Ahmadi persecution would stop.
Let’s just have a big heart and try and put ourselves in the shoes of minorities, empathise and feel the pain they feel almost everyday. Maybe, just maybe, then can we at least begin to realize how much they need acceptance, support and their rightful place in society.
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Kaalchakra
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The following is what I said to Vish:
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“Vish, frankly, to evaluate any subcontinental politician’s overall behavior I would discount the politics in the period 1946-48. Even so, Sheikh Mujib was then a student leader, a muscle man and bodyguard of Suhrawardy during the DAD riots. ….and that was that Bengali Muslims of Bangladesh, generally, are not disrespectful to Hinduism. Dhaka Durga and Kali Pujas are some of the biggest festivals in that country. The belittling of the Hindu religions and customs that KC speaks of is more true of the north Indian and Calcutta Muslims who are generally Urdu speaking.”
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This, by a twisted streak of ingenious logic, you interpreted as,
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“So, you mentioned that in order to understand true Bengalis (those who spoke Bengali) we must ignore a few years of their lives. Is there some general principle to determine the years that must be stricken off the calendar of all real Bengalis’ lives so that we can be fair to them?”
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KC, to be fair to the Bengali politicians you should strike off the ages 0 to 3 and 92 to 97 from their political careers. The general principle for this is fairly sound: between 0 and 3 the Bengali politicians are usually in their nappies and between 92 and 97 they have become incapacitated so much that the only thing that matters any more, a la Gandhi, is the preservation of their vital fluids. Do not hesitate to ask if you need any more clarification on this matter.
LOL, thanks, that was quite helpful as all my dear friend HP’s theories and views are.
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But it seems to me that the rule of wiping the most momentous years, 1946-48, off the Calendar seems to tailor-made to help hide the obvious (to me) fact that our revered Bangabandhu may not have been such a Bangabandu first and foremost before 1947. Definitely not when he took part in the direct action festivities.
If you have any evidence to prove that pre-1947, before the implementation of TNT, he was closer to Bengali-speaking Hindus than he was to Urdu-speaking Suhrawardy and his supporters, I would love to see it.
I have nothing pro or against Mujib. It just seems to me that Bengali Hindus – who never got what TNT was – are painting him into what the man was not.
to the PTH
You remain mired in the years before 1947.
But in the year 2013 islamic fascism has become far more widespread and powerful and ruthless.
Talk about what destruction islam and muslims are going to bring upon mankind after this year.
It is well-known that Mujib ur Rehman was a typical hindu-hating hooligan muslim as a youth.
Only after arabs and panjabi/pashtun pak muslims hung him upside down and flogged him in the name of allah and Mohammad did he realize that islam is inherently fascistic and violent and arab-racist.
Later he was killed by muslim fascists in the bangladeshi army who had earlier received their indoctrination in the pakistani islamofascist army.
The record of islam all over the world is fascism and violence, militarism and misogyny.
Those who say (or said) that they are (were) proud that their ancestors converted “voluntarily” to islam will be soon bleeding and strangulating each other to death in their homes and on the roadsides.
Kaalchakra
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Mujib did not live very long before 1947. Suhrawardy himself was a close associate of C. R. Das, so was Fazlul Haque. All of them were active in the DAD “festivities”. So was Shyama Prasad who himself led many a “battle” on the streets. Was Shyama Prasad for partition too, before 1946? Get some sense in the head from wherever you can.
HP
Let me break it down for you.
(1) Starting 1940, when the A-bondhu joined the All Indian Muslim Students Federation, right up to 1947 the A-bondhu had little to say about Hindus and Muslims being one nation.
(2) The A-bondhu was active in a party that went to every Bengali town with TNT.
(3) The A-bondhu gravitated to the Urdu speaking (hence not real Bengali) leader Suhrawardy. The A-bondhu stuck fast to Suhrarwardy even when the latter was being widely criticized as a communal villain.
(4) Under Suhrawardy’s direction, the A-bondhu took part in Direct Action Day festivities in Bengal.
(5) Your argument is that Shyama Prasad too took part in those festivities. Fine.
Now, can you kindly explain to us lesser mortals in simple English – when did the A-bondhu become a Bondhu, and Shyama Prasad a communalist?
I have an answer – when the A-Bondhu realized that he had completely lost the game to people he had hitherto believed were his real Bondhus – the Urdu walas.
(Nothing unique about him. It happened to a few others too.)
Kaalchakra, why in the name of Nefertiti am I arguing with you when all you are really doing is giving us some half cooked info from Wikipedia. KC, Hindu and Muslim Bengalis shared exactly the same culture, language, food, etc and neither of them held a low opinion of the religion/faith of the other. I mention this because earlier you used these same attributes in your support/argument in favor of the TNT. Both communities in Bengal had staunchly secular leaders with C R Das, Subhas Bose, and Fazlul Haque having a wide cross religious appeal. The Hindus and Muslims together averted the first partition in 1911 and at least until 1943 Fazlul Haque and Shyama Prasad ran a bi-partisan government as an oasis in an otherwise barren political scene full of religious strife and demagoguery. KC is there a doubt that Hindu and Muslim Bengalis would have been able to create a unified self-government (with some sort of a power sharing agreement) had not the poisonous politics of north India seeped in in time to spoil the broth for us all?
Kaalchakra, why in the name of Nefertiti am I arguing with you when all you are really doing is giving us some half cooked info from Wikipedia. KC, Hindu and Muslim Bengalis shared exactly the same culture, language, food, etc and neither of them held a low opinion of the religion/faith of the other. I mention this because earlier you used these same attributes as some sort of a prop/argument in favor of the TNT. Both communities in Bengal had staunchly secular leaders with C R Das, Subhas Bose, and Fazlul Haque having a wide cross religious appeal. The Hindus and Muslims together averted the first partition of Bengal and at least until 1943 Fazlul Haque and Shyama Prasad ran a bi-partisan government as an oasis in an otherwise barren political scene full of religious strife and demagoguery. KC there is not a doubt that Hindu and Muslim Bengalis would have been able to create a unified self-government (with some sort of a power sharing agreement) if only the poisonous politics of north India had not seeped in in time to spoil the broth.
Dear HP, this is where my bengali brothers and sisters get it wrong. An absurdity like the Communal Award would never have been accepted in India. It was un-Indian, unethical, immoral, and inhuman.
I am the greatest admirer of the Bengali people. They made India. But even the best falter. By 1947, a good many Hindus in Bengal had clearly begun to live in la la land where they couldn’t see beyond the fish-pond in their backyard, let alone across India. At least now, these good and intelligent people should snap out of it. They are being unfair to themselves.
Kaalchakra, the details are not your strong point but the devil lies in them. You don’t have to be an “admirer of the Bengali people” to know that “by 1947″ it was the “good many Hindus” who divided Bengal. The support for an undivided Bengal was far more among the legislature drawn from the Muslim majority districts than in the Hindu ones, where it was minimal. “At least now” it’s not the Bengalis, not seeing a riot to speak of since the sixties, should snap out of anything. KC if snapping out is all that necessary I would rather look into other areas where the use of that phrase is far more appropriate.
Sometimes if forces me to think why the whole sub continent would suffer because of the hostilities between Punjabis and Bengalis, who are really different. Most of the arguments are between Punjabis.
yazid, punjabis, bengalis, and sindhis did suffer quite a bit. They also had their ‘lands’ divided. So it is not hard to empathize with their difficulties in coming to grips with the realities of partition.
HP
We are going round in circles. Again, the desire of Bengali Muslims to keep all of Bengal within Pakistan (or in some kind of constitutionally-mandated Communal Award situation) was not any different from that of any other Muslim Leaguer. Mr Jinnah wanted all of Punjab, all of Bengal, all of everything else he could get. Not wanting to divide Bengal did not at all mean that bengali Muslims did not believe in TNT.
You somehow have to wrap your head around the fact that TNT did NOT mean totally separating Hindus and Muslims.
At best that can be forgiven as Hindu ignorance of islamic motivations – which were exclusively about socio-political control and removing/reducing Hindu public influence and competition.
KC
The history is irreversible, validity of TNT is a bad debate, and we already are grouped into several nations, if you include Afghanistan and Myanmar to be part of the union. I think the status quo is going to remain and would go forward in next 100 years. Now it would be the job of all the three nations (Pak, IND and BD) to build upon what you have, burying old memories. With the old connections, we can go in a positive or negative way. If you take my opinion positive forward steps would be good for humanity, negativity would glue hate politics.
Kaalchakra, it is you moving in triangles not I. Muslim politics in Bengal was class politics, represented by the KPP of Fazlul Haque. The name itself (Krishok Proja Party), two words Sanskrit and one English with no Muslim or Arabic identifier, should tell you something about its religion identification. KC, without the constant intervention of the Congress Party (its north Indian faction) and the Muslim League, any one of (a) Bengal Plan, (b) Fazlul Haque overture to INC 1937, or (c) Bose initiative of 1939, would have kept Bengal united.
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This is not to deny history and trying to resurrect the past. But the past and the present are also images of each other. You can see that in that while the two Bengals are coming ever closer to each other the Hindu Muslim equation elsewhere has a fairly different prognosis.
HP
Please understand the non-Bengali view. No matter how much we might love our Bengali brothers and sisters, keeping ‘Bengal (or Punjab, or UP, or Bihar) United’ was not and could not be the sole concern of all Indians – nor a test of anyone’s secularism. The issue was – what kind of India, ALL Indians, wanted to live in. The Indian that Indians wanted then, as they do now, was/is NOT the India of Sarat Chandra Bose, Mr Suhrawardy and Mr Huq, with their Communal Award. Indians did not and would NEVER have accepted that arrrangment for themselves. And if Mr Bose and his followers felt that they would rather live in Pakistan unless such arrangements were honored by everyone, most Indians then, as they would do now, regrettably not stop him if he chose to make Pakistan his home with his friends with the arrangement he wanted.
HP, Mr Huq was a great man. Even those of us who have only a cursory interest in history know of his difficulties with the League. But building an entire history of a large region like Bengal on one person and one sanskrit word in one person’s party’s name is insane. It is bound to be very misleading.
The following is the Resolution Mr Huq moved in Lahore. It is well known and was easy to find. Please look for the word ‘class’ in here.
To be fair to Mr Huq, this too is NOT the entire story about him. Yet hopefully it will display the futiliity of the absurd Bengali Hindu belief that Huq-Sunhrawardy-Bose held all the keys to peaceful communal living even in bengal, if not all over Indiaa.
————— Lahore Resolution Moved by Mr Huq ——————
1. While approving and endorsing the action taken by the Council and the Working Committee of the All-India Muslim League, as indicated in their resolutions dated the 27th of August, 17th and 18th of September and 22nd of October, 1939, and 3rd of February 1940, on the constitutional issue, this session of the All-India Muslim League emphatically reiterates that the scheme of Federation embodied in the Government of India Act, 1935 is totally unsuited to, and unworkable in the peculiar conditions of this country and is altogether unacceptable to Muslim India.
2. It further records its emphatic view that while the declaration dated the 18th of October, 1939, made by the Viceroy on behalf of His Majesty’s Government is reassuring in so far as it declares that the policy and plan on which the Government of India Act, 1935 is based will be reconsidered in consultation with the various parties, interests and communities in India, Muslim India will not be satisfied unless the whole constitutional plan is reconsidered de novo and that no revised plan would be acceptable to the Muslims unless it is framed with their approval and consent.
3. Resolved that it is the considered view of this session of the All-India Muslim League that no constitutional plan would be workable in this country or acceptable to Muslims unless it is designed on the following basic principle, namely, that geographically contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted, with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary, that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority, as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped to constitute ‘Independent States’ in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.
That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards should be specifically provided in the constitution for minorities in these units and in these regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights and interests in consultation with them; and in other parts of India where Mussalmans are in a minority, adequate, effective and mandatory safeguard shall be specially provided in the constitution for them and other minorities for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights and interests in consultation with them.
This session further authorises the Working Committee to frame a scheme of constitution in accordance with these basic principles, providing for the assumption finally by the respective regions of all powers such as defence, external affairs, communications, customs and such other matters as may be necessary.
Now, one can understand the Bengali Hindu angst – if everyone else had given this or that lollipop to Mr Huq, he would have never done this or that.
If that is the approach we are willing to take, then why on earth would anyone call Mr jinnah communal, or in fact, anyone else?
Having said that, Huq’s claims to working with both communities were strong. Let’s given him that. But let’s not pretend that he was all there was to bengali Muslim (or Hindu) politics.
Yazid, that is true. But wilful misrepresentation of history does nobody any good. To that extent it must be confronted with honesty. It’s a difficult thing. The objective is not to ‘stop forgetting’ for us all, but if we do have to remember, let’s remember right – to the extent we can.
How does one bury memories?
How do non-muslims bury memories of islamic imperialism, maraudery and genocide against non-muslims?
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How do non-muslims bury such memories when the muslims continue to cherish the idea of carrying out more expansionism, imperialism, marauderies and genocides against non-muslims in FUTURE?
If these memories are buried then the muslims will have it easier to carry out their expansionism, imperialism and genocides against non-muslims.
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The present generation of muslims are eagerly and happily profiting from the marauderies, genocides and the imperialism which the earlier agents and quislings of islam have carried out.
More and more land, human beings, weapons, wealth and other resources are coming under the boot of islam. Where to is that leading?
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And you are advising non-muslims to bury these memories?
Are you an agent of islam?
Kaalchakra, as usual you are weak on the details but what is new. By “Bose initiative” I did not mean Sarat Bose, but Subhas Bose. Fazlul Huq was a friend of Bose and in 1939 (or was it ’38) Bose secured his support for replacing the Krishok Party-Muslim League government (with Huq himself as the Chief Minister) with a KPP-INC government in Calcutta. Gandhi vetoed this plan on the insistence of G. D. Birla. The reasons for Birla’s objections are unknown but could be because of (a) Huq’s (and Bose’s) socialist agenda or (b) the usual Marwari distaste for the Muslims. Whatever the reasons the failure of Congress to form government in Bengal ensured that the state went to the influence of Muslim League. Fazlul Huq, twice spurned by Congress (’37, ’38), gradually drifted to Muslim League who obviously courted him very actively. This resulted in the Lahore Resolution which you seem to be so enamored of.
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Even after Lahore, FH, the undisputed Muslim leader of the masses in undivided Bengal, was never comfortable with the Muslim League’s secessionist politics. This is why when the KPP-AIML government was finally toppled (after the failure of the Bose initiative), it was toppled by Huq himself and was replaced by the KPP-HMS government with Huq again as the Chief Minister.
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“The Indian that Indians wanted then, as they do now, was/is NOT the India of Sarat Chandra Bose, Mr Suhrawardy and Mr Huq, with their Communal Award. Indians did not and would NEVER have accepted that arrrangment for themselves.”
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Funny the Congress Party accepted the Communal Award. It was the caste based part of the award INC was not comfortable with, which resulted in the Poona Pact.
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“But building an entire history of a large region like Bengal on one person and one sanskrit word in one person’s party’s name is insane. It is bound to be very misleading.”
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This only shows your shallow understanding of political history, not only of Bengal but of history in general. KC, persons, words, and party names make no small contribution to the political future of the world’s regions. Look at Pakistan, the country has 10 or so political parties all calling themselves this or that Muslim League. While the only mass based Muslim led Party in Bengal called himself the Krishok Proja Party and (unlike the Muslim League) had no restrictions for the non-Muslims and in fact had many poor Hindu voters as well.
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KC, the partition of India was largely a result of the failure of the leadership to arrive at unity. This led to the leadership, especially of the Muslim League, to spread the poison of communal disharmony. In Bengal the leadership was much more in sync and the degree of communal discord was much less here than anywhere else. This was true only until the mid forties (at which point the poison of the north had finally taken over), and it became true again after independence.
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If you don’t see the obvious historical fact stated above yourself I don’t know how I can help you.
HP, you are wrong in detail, in approach, and in your conclusions.
(1) No, Indians did not ‘accept’ the communal award – unless we use ‘accept’ in the sense that it was imposed upon them, and led to huge dissatisfaction. I repeat, no Indian other than a few Bengalis would have liked to live in an India whose form was envisaged by the Communal Award – probably not even Baba Ambedkar. If you have evidence to support your ‘acceptance by Congress’ theory – or that opposition to it was all about caste alone – please share.
(2) It is absurd to hear of this Bose’s friendship with this person and that Bose’s compulsions to live with bengalis of all hues. HP, brother, Subhash was friends with a lot of people in the Congress too. Again, this whole approach related to looking at a few votes and vetoes as as the driving casuation of long-standing problems is naive at best.
From the earliest days, in Bengal one sees little but bengali Muslims organizing and politicking as Muslims, either as Bengali Muslims or Indian Muslims. At every turn where they could choose to work with Bengali Hindus or choose a separate represenation or even physical separation, they chose (as far as I can tell) separation (except for asking for the ENTIRE province for Pakistan, at the end). Nobody has implied that there had to be communal HATRED. No, a separate, poitically immiscible IDENTITY is enough.
In crafting, using, and exploiting a SEPARATE IDENTITY, Bengali Muslims had been quite the leaders on the subcontinent. They were not the followers.
Now, if a claim were to be advanced that one subhash and one huq could have erased that decades of separate, immiscible identity – and only Birla was to be blamed – I would have a hard time accepting the hope. And others might raise questions.
(3) Lastly, obviously, partition occurred because Hindu-Muslim leaders could not agree among themselves.
The only question is that which I have often asked without getting any answers from anyone – WHAT SPECIFIC SOLUTION would have worked at an all India level?
COMMUNAL AWARD?
CABINET MISSION PLAN?
These might have worked for Mr Sarat Bose and his family and friends but held no attraction at all for anyone else in India. And one we look that hard fact in the eye, we realize that East or West, there really was no other option at an all India level. It was not a matter of this two-bit leader not talking nicely to another one. Essentialy, we had two peoples with radically different visions and expectations. They simply could NOT have agreed. NO COMMONLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION WAS FOUND, because it simply did NO exist.
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Anyway, that is my view. You can have the last word, HP, because we surely have not changed minds here.
Still discussing panjab, bangal, 1947 etc.? Wasting time.
What about the future?
What are islam and its agents and quislings planning for the future?
What about their plans to inflict islamic fascism and arabic hegemony on mankind?
Kaalchakra, there are two ways one can approach a subject like this. The first is where you already have your pre-conceived notion and conclusion and the effort is only on trying to find some suitable data points to support your conclusion. From the lack of understanding of partition and its causes you have shown so far (starting with the rather absurd claim that more people died in Bengal than in Punjab) and from the fact that even then you already had your talking points ready on the subject, this seems to be your way. The second way is where you use the available data points themselves to build a hypothesis and test it based on the events that take place in the past present and future. This is clearly not your preferred mode of argument as you color any discussion here by a pre-conceived juvenile presumption that the Muslims only represent a homogenous monolithic group devoid of variation.
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“No, Indians did not ‘accept’ the communal award – unless we use ‘accept’ in the sense that it was imposed upon them, and led to huge dissatisfaction. I repeat, no Indian other than a few Bengalis would have liked to live in an India whose form was envisaged by the Communal Award – probably not even Baba Ambedkar. If you have evidence to support your ‘acceptance by Congress’ theory – or that opposition to it was all about caste alone – please share. ”
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KC, in response to the caste part of the Communal Award Gandhi went on a fast unto death in 1932. Although I agree with you that the award was imposed on the Congress Party by the colonial power why wasn’t a similar rejection offered to the religion part by the INC? Especially when the same award was included in the GOI Act under which the Congress Party went into the provincial elections in 1937?
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Whatever gave you the idea that the Bengalis were ready to live in an India shaped by the Communal Award? Do you even know that the Award found its most ardent criticism nowhere else but in Bengal? Also, here are the points agreed upon by some Bengali politicians favorable to an independent but undivided Bengal (the so-called Sarat Bose-Suhrawardy Plan):
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1.
Bengal would be a Free State. The Free State of Bengal would decide its relations with the rest of India.
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2.
The Constitution of the Free State of Bengal would provide for election to the Bengal Legislature on the basis of a joint electorate and adult franchise , with reservation of seats proportionate to the population among Hindus and Muslims. The seats set aside for Hindus and Scheduled Caste Hindus would be distributed amongst them in proportion to their respective population, or in such manner as may be agreed among them. The constituencies would be multiple constituencies and the votes would be distributive and not cumulative. A candidate who got the majority of the votes of his own community cast during the elections and 25 percent of the votes of the other communities so cast, would be declared elected. If no candidate satisfied these conditions, that candidate who got the largest number of votes of his own community would be elected.
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3.
On the announcement by His Majesty’s Government that the proposal of the Free State of Bengal had been accepted and that Bengal would not be partitioned, the present Bengal Ministry would be dissolved. A new interim Ministry would be brought into being, consisting of an equal number of Muslims and Hindus (including Scheduled Caste Hindus) but excluding the Chief Minister. In this Ministry, Chief Minister would be a Muslim and the Home Minister a Hindu.
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4.
Pending the final emergence of a Legislature and a Ministry under the new constitutions, Hindus (including Scheduled Caste Hindus) and Muslims would have an equal share in the Services, including military and police. The Services would be manned by Bengalis.
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5.
A Constituent Assembly composed of 30 persons, 16 Muslims and 14 non-Muslims, would be elected by Muslim and non-Muslim members of the Legislature respectively, excluding Europeans.
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Additionally, Suhrawardy was in favor of a truly independent Bengal, while Sarat Bose favored a sovereign state but still inside a free Indian Federation.
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I bring all of this out not to resurrect a Bengali identity in a Pakistani forum (which is quite absurd for me, ethnically speaking) but to dispel some of the myths you propagate out of what I think is ignorance of the basic facts.
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“It is absurd to hear of this Bose’s friendship with this person and that Bose’s compulsions to live with bengalis of all hues. HP, brother, Subhash was friends with a lot of people in the Congress too. Again, this whole approach related to looking at a few votes and vetoes as as the driving casuation of long-standing problems is naive at best.”
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Subhas Bose understood Bengal politics and knew that the Muslim League would have to be stopped on its tracks in the early days after the ’37 elections. What better way to do that than deny them a chance of representation anywhere in the subcontinent including Bengal and Punjab. This is why he wanted to bring down the AIML-KPP government in Bengal. The fruition of his plan may very well have averted the partition of India just because the Congress Party would have automatically co-opted the mass based Muslim Parties in both Punjab and Bengal.
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“At every turn where they could choose to work with Bengali Hindus or choose a separate represenation or even physical separation, they chose (as far as I can tell) separation (except for asking for the ENTIRE province for Pakistan, at the end). Nobody has implied that there had to be communal HATRED. No, a separate, poitically immiscible IDENTITY is enough. ”
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Obviously you have not read up on how the first partition of Bengal was averted.
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“Lastly, obviously, partition occurred because Hindu-Muslim leaders could not agree among themselves.”
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Good that you say that, without assigning the “blame” to a homogenous monolithic Muslim mass and their “ideology”.
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“The only question is that which I have often asked without getting any answers from anyone – WHAT SPECIFIC SOLUTION would have worked at an all India level?
COMMUNAL AWARD?
CABINET MISSION PLAN?
These might have worked for Mr Sarat Bose and his family and friends but held no attraction at all for anyone else in India. And one we look that hard fact in the eye, we realize that East or West, there really was no other option at an all India level. It was not a matter of this two-bit leader not talking nicely to another one. Essentialy, we had two peoples with radically different visions and expectations. They simply could NOT have agreed. NO COMMONLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION WAS FOUND, because it simply did NO exist.”
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Fallacious argumentation at its best. KC the appropriate solution easily could have been joint electorate with reservation based on population (the tentative plan suggested and agreed on in Bengal). But what was required was the political will to arrive at a solution, and that was what was missing “at an all India level”. In 1937 Jinnah wanted only minority shareholding in the UP government but was rebuffed by the majority party. That, my dear KC, was the real problem “at the all India level”, the unsophisticated and arrogant leadership from the stakeholders on all sides.
Still discussing panjab, bangal, 1947 etc.? Wasting time.
What about the future?
What are islam and its agents and quislings planning for the future?
What about their plans to inflict islamic fascism and arabic hegemony on mankind?
Good. We can agree to disagree, with our respective positions rather clear.
The way I see it, neither the Congress nor the League accepted the Sarat-Sunhrawardy pact not because of the absence of some abstractt ‘political will’, but because very soical or political little intelligence behind that (pseudo) pact and because it flew in the face of the entire history of actual politicking in Bengal itself, including everything that Suhrawardy had been doing all along or would do in the immediate future.
I understand that you think that what Mr Sarat Bose agreed to was what everyone else – including the Muslim League – wanted as well. And you think that that arrangment would actually have been better for India, and are disappointed with the Congress leaders for not accepting what you think was the Sarat-Suhrawardy plan genuinely backed by Jinnah.
Ah, excuse the typos – i got to rush out right away. Later
Pakistan was to be a jail for those Indians who had turned away from their motherland. These prisoners are called Pakistanis.
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Pakistani Army was to be the Jailors.
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They are doing a good job! Pakis are being burned like Firewood-Muslims, to keep the Jailors warm in winter! Al iz Vell onlee!
Despite so much love and goodwill between Bengali Muslims and Hindus, why is Mamatadi acting the spoilsport and denying her Bangladesh brothers and sisters a fair share of the Teesta? Or have we all got it wrong and it is actually the malign influence of the Delhiwallahs (North Indians) that is preventing any agreement between Bengali brothers and sisters (of the East and West)?
An interesting article on rediff.com http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-anomaly-of-a-secular-bangladesh/20130309.htm.
History experts can judge the veracity of the claims made in the article, a few of which are reproduced below,
“Mujib himself revived the Islamic Academy, achieved a rapprochement with Pakistan, and took Bangladesh into the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and the Islamic Development Bank. Those who knew him towards the end, say “Khuda Hafiz” had replaced ‘Joy Bangla’ as his favourite greeting”
“It wasn’t fashionable to admit it, but the nine million refugees who fled to India in 1971 were mostly Hindus, victims as much of Pakistani repression as of local Muslim brutality”
Kaalchakra, grow up, it should be clear to anyone, even with a cursory knowledge of Indian history, that the plan agreed upon in Bengal would have been perfectly acceptable to Congress at the all India level. The only reason they opposed it in Bengal was because under the plan Bengal was to be a sovereign state. The plan (joint electorate and proportional representation) would have been opposed by the Muslim League of 1947 had it come up at the India level because of a lack of political will. The AIML of 1937 that offered to participate in UP government would have accepted it.
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At the India level Congress was arrogant, making AIML inflexible, which in turn inflamed and exploited the already existing communal divide. None of these really applied to Bengal.
Dear HP, if you believe that the Communal Award would not only have been accepted at an All-India level, but would also have been better for India in any rational sense, we should not only agree to disagree but also to consider each other completely delusional with little understanding of either how the world works or what the pre-1947 conflict was all about.
That is ok. My purpose was not to convince you but to first understand the Sarat-Ayesha-Sugato-Sarmila school of ‘history’ and then once I found I disagreed with it, to express that disagreement. We can leave it at that. Best.
You actually referred to the plan agreed upon in Bengal. That too.
Koun Banega DilliPati? Quiz Time:
Gautam Buddha Ki MohMad Darbari GMasti ke liye Kisane Mari?
Usase kya huwa? Bharat Durbal Huwa…Sab Bhikari bane aur Jarasa Dhakka Arabonka Laga Aur Boudh Dhamma Afghanistan aur Pakistan Se Gayab Huwa. Isiliye Urdu me Murti ko Buddh Bolte hai.
Allah Ki MohMad Darbari GMasti Ke lIye Kisane Mari?
Jews ko divide karke mideast rule karane ke liye Yeshu ( Jesus) Ki MohMad usake death ke 200 years ke baad Kisane Mari?
Darbari GmAsti Ke liye aur Bharat ki Permaanent MohMad Marane Ke liye Angrajon ke kaheane pe kisane Gautam Buddh Ki MohMad Mari?
Yeh answer karane nahi aate to episode 2 ( sorry Langoti Sod) dekhiye
ब्याट की हिज स्टोरी लंगोटी सोड़ 2
26 ज्यानुअरी 1948
बाब्या आंबेडकर गांडू : साहब हमने कॉपी-पेस्ट किया संविधान के ऊपर और पृष्ट कवर जैसा आपने बताया। बाकि सब वैसा के वैसा ही है है जो 1935 में ब्रिटिश मायबाप सरकार ने लिखा। सभी पेनल कोड वही है जो ईस्ट इंडिया कंपनी ने सौ साल पाहिले लिखे।
गब्बर माउंट ब्याटेंन गांडू: अच्छा किया। इसीलिए तो हमने तुमको इंग्लैंड में आयरिश लड़की को लाइन मारने दिया। हमें सब मालूम है तू क्या कहता था उस लड़की को की तू शादीशुदा नहीं है, जब की तेरी शादी हुई थी तेरे जातवाली के साथ और दो बच्चे भी थे। हमें ऐसे ही क्षुद्र मनोवृत्ति के गांडू चाहिए थे। तू हमारा काम कर हम तुम्हे मुफ्त में व्हिस्की पिलायेंगे, तेरी गांड म|रेंगे तेरे को जैसा चाहिए वैसी। तू ने उस मराठा शाहू छत्रपति को भी चुत्या बनाया। उसका पैसा के कारन तू इंग्लैंड आया और फिर हमारे ताबे में आया। उस बिचारे शाहू को लगा तू पढ़ रहा है, आकर कोल्हापुर में कोई स्कूल कॉलेज निकालेगा लेकिन तूने अछि तरह उसको चुना लगाया। तू है ही पैदाशी गांडू। अपुन को तेरे पिच्छे के आम बहुत अच्छे लगते है, आज तू फेअर और लवली लाया है ना? चेहरे पर लगाने की जरुरत नहीं, आपुन को तेरे पीछे से मतलब है। अरे वो वो तू क्रिस्चन बनाने का क्या हुवा?
बाब्या आंबेडकर गांडू: वोह चार साल पहिले आप ने बोला था सरकार, लेकिन हमारे बीबी बच्चे नहीं मने। और सोचिये सरकार हम खुले आम क्रिस्ती बने दरबारी गांड मस्ती के लिए तो क्या होगी हमारी इज्जत, सब को पता चलेगा। सब हम और तुम में जो बिस्तारी रिश्ता है ब्याट का वोह राज खुल जायेगा। परदे में रहने दो, परदा न हटाओ। क्रिस्टी न बनके भी हम तुमसे गांड मरवा सकते है और हमारे 17 पिद्धियों की गांड मरवायेंगे। भारत का विनाश तो ऐसे भी हम करेंगे आप लोग जाने के बाद। आप के कहने पर हम शिख को भी भी पुचा की हमें शिख बनवाने को। वो हिचकिचाए, उनको भी शंका ई की हम्म दरबारी गांड मस्ती के लिए धर्म परिवर्तन कर रहे है, और जब उन्होंहे कहा कहा की उनके गुरु के 5 क के बारे में तो मैंने सोहा आप को कैसा लगेगा आपका डार्लिंग गांडू दाढ़ीवाला है, आपने दी हुई मेड इन मेनचेस्टर अंडी के बजाय देसी कच्चा पहेनता है। हमें इसका भी दर था की देसी ककाच्चा से सब को दिखेगा की हमारा लौडा और बॉल्स आप ने काट के ले गए है। आपने प्रोमिस किया था की अरबी मोहमद जैसे अहमे बेटी छोड़ बनवायेंगे। एक गरीब बामन कन्या वैसे ही आपने मिलवाई, हम कच्छा पहनेंगे तो उसको सब कुछ पता चलेगा। इसीलिए हमने सिख धर्म को छोड़ा। सारी, सारी आपको मुस्सल्मान नहीं तो सिख देश चाहिए था जो आपके कहने पर सोवियत और चाइना को उंगली करता रहे। लेकिन हमारी भी मज़बूरी सोचिये।
Kaalchakra, read about Nehru Report, a document prepared by Congress, if you have any doubt if the plan agreed upon in Bengal would have been accepted at the all India level.
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-anomaly-of-a-secular-bangladesh/20130309.htm
it wasn’t fashionable to admit it, but the nine million refugees who fled to India in 1971 were mostly Hindus, victims as much of Pakistani repression as of local Muslim brutality
Funny, Mishra Saab, the local perpetrators of the brutality are precisely the ones Bangladesh is putting on trial and Sunanda K. Datta Ray is advising against,
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“It’s time now for her to recall the indulgence Mujib showed to war collaborators and draw a veil over the blood-soaked past… As I have said before in this column, India’s best friend would be a Bangladesh that is not paying off old scores, but has come to terms with the past and is at peace with itself.”
Funny, Mishra Saab, those local perpetrators of the brutality are precisely the ones Bangladesh is putting on trial and Sunanda K. Datta Ray is advising against it,
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-anomaly-of-a-secular-bangladesh/20130309.htm
…indulgence Mujib showed to war collaborators..
And for that he and his family were killed by these muslim paki-bootlicker scoundrels in the BD army on August 15th 1975.
Hasina escaped since she was in a foreign country.
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