Javed Ahmed Ghamdi’s Views about Source of Terrorism

Right now terrorism perpetuated by Islamic militants is dominating the global media. Many analysts have tried to come up with their assessment with respect to the possible cause(s) behind this surge. Here is Javed Ahmed Ghamdi, who is a reformist religious scholar, expressing his views about Islamic extremism.

 

We request our viewers to please watch because some of the points made by the esteemed scholar merit a lot of debate.

 

  • Mustafa Shaban

    Javed Ghamidi is a liberal scholar who is appreciated by many.

    But some observers think Ghamidi is a closet extremist and that he holds the same.theological views the extremists have except that he is not violent.

  • kaalchakra

    “he holds the same.theological views the extremists”

    Been a few years since I looked at his views closely, but the general sense was that Javed Ghamidi was not able to quite break from the very ideas that he intellectually knew were wrong. All said and done, he appeared to be treading the same water as conservatives.

    Some videos clip(s?) of him engaged in a discussion with Dr Israr Ahmed showed both his reformist impulses and the limitations that he put upon himself. His views probably influence a small educated minority of Sunnis (since he came across as something of a Quranist – an easy way out for many).

    ———–
    Still, the man had to leave Pakistan. So he had to have had something real to say. .

  • RHR

    Kaal

    Yes he had to leave Pakistan.He was almost killed and therefore virtually had no choice. Now let’s hear from you. What should be done to counter Islamic extremism. What is your suggestion? Now bear in mind what there are 1.5 billion Muslims and there are not going to change their religion simply because some of the political commentators think that it is evil.
    From pragmatic perspective, what is your take as to what can West do? What can Muslim Governments do? And what can so called “Moderate” Muslims do?

  • Quantum

    Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is not a Quranist (and it is not necessarily an “easy way out” if one rejects the canonicity of hadith). They can be traced to a movement in the subcontinent in the early part of the last century and in other parts of the Muslim and non-Muslim world. Within them, there are varying perspectives in the way scriptural sources are to be approached. But it’s really that same cliched perspective peddled against Ghamidi by traditionalist scholars without really engaging with his work. He can be appropriately categorized as a revivalist/reformist with the caveat that movements and schools of thought subsumed under this rubric are anything but homogeneous, ranging from Shah Wali ullah Dehalwi in 18th century India to the Sanusi sufi order in North Africa.

    He is also not a liberal, though some of the conclusions of his intellectual ruminations do at times converge with the liberal positions on certain issues. That obviously does not mean that he subscribes to the fundamental propositions or sources of liberal thought.

    As for him being an extremist/fundamentalist/conservative, one has to be very clear on what these terms mean and on whom they get applied. Those using these terms are obviously entrenched in their own value systems and worldviews that they ineluctably bring to bear upon their pronouncements. So it’s easy to call someone an extremist unless he/she says what we want to hear. If he was unable to “break from the very ideas that he intellectually knew were wrong”, I really want to know what those ideas are. Judging from the context in which the assertion has been made, I suppose this must amount to nothing less than he having intellectually repudiated his faith entirely could not yet be able to break from it.

  • razaraja

    Kaal sahib

    Let’s hear your take on Quantum’s opinion.

  • kaalchakra

    RHR, Qurantum

    Calling Mr Ghamdi a reformist/revivalist seems about right, although as Quantum mentioned, using any term for anyone is a bit tricky. Ghamidi is a man of his faith, and the harder one adheres to a faith, the more one becomes limited by that faith. That’s the feeling I got looking at him, confessedly, years ago, and I suspect, other people who don’t share his faith will feel similarly.

    But those who are looking at avenues for reform clearly have an ally in him, IF they are also at the same time, cautious of the revivalist in Ghamidi. In that sense, he is similar to how Ahmadis see themselves – totally committed to Islam but controversial.

  • kaalchakra

    RHR, reformist Muslims are doing what they can and what is possible. They (including Ghamidi) are a brave lot who themselves are not a monolith. One may agree with the views and approaches of some of them, not of others, but that is less important.
    .
    ———-
    (I tend to be more concerned with how non-Muslim liberals undercut Muslim reformists and perpetuate bad ideas, conflicts, and emotions. The following gives a flavor of what I mean by bad ideas and the circle of evil that transmits and strengthens bad ideas –
    .
    “Put house in order to put daesh away from Pakistan” (The Dawn)
    .
    – When Maulana Aziz of Lal Masjid says that it is simply a bad idea, as bad ideas tend to be found among those who inhabit places like temples and mosques.
    .
    – When a normal Muslim says that, the bad idea becomes a social problem with societal implications.
    .
    – When a supposedly liberal Muslim says that, the social problem becomes acute and very hard to fix.
    .
    – When the same sentiment becomes dominant on the pages of The Hindu and among its readers, it becomes either trite or very dangerous – we are doing absolutely no good to either Pakistan or anyone else in the world.)

  • Quantum

    May I ask what adhering “harder” to one’s faith implies? Does it mean having a strong adherence to its scriptural sources or to certain interpretations of these sources? Those who adhere to liberal ideals very strongly are also limited by that ideology, and so it is with any other perspective. Since I see in your tone a kind of disapproval for his strong adherence to his faith, does he have to be a “cultural Muslim” only to appear soft or do you have something else in mind? Those who are looking at him only as an ally in reform may themselves be very limited in the way they seek to understand him.

  • kaalchakra

    “Those who are looking at him only as an ally in reform may themselves be very limited in the way they seek to understand him.”

    Absolutely, Quantum. Ghamidi is of interest to many of us only in as much as he can be an ally in reform. His faith is his interest alone, and it will limit him and will lead him to conclusions and beliefs we may not agree with, just as he won’t agree with our faiths or liberalism – whatever these may be.
    .
    BTW, we shouldn’t conclude from it all that all manner of faiths and liberalism all have equivalent effects on societies. They don’t.

  • kaalchakra

    May be helpful to clarify about the tone of disapproval for strong adherence to faith –

    Yes, that is true not in a moral sense but in that I find his faith untenable, just as I find Masadi’s faith untenable, and we may all find one another’s faiths untenable or non-compelling.
    .
    Yet people of different faiths and liberals can join hands in peace, and build ideas that promote peace. That is where Ghamidi is most relevant to those who don’t share his faith and to Muslims who wish to promote peace.

  • hellfire

    masadi quit your raving mad barking. You seem to enjoy making an international fool of yourself but thats just part and parcel of your mental illness. go see your doctor. he may not be able to increase your height or your penis size but he can help get the darn thang working at least. and he can also prescibe the much needed haldol to get you back to reality. wish you the best with that.

  • Quantum

    In fact, his faith and the way he approaches it is of interest to many who seek a better understanding of their faith rather than try to simply find an ally in him. That his appreciation of his faith leads to a certain orientation towards political issues is a corollary for many. Those who don’t agree with his beliefs will obviously try to use him for their own purposes, good or bad, but its’s precisely here that he is accused of pandering to liberals. They using him for their purposes only exacerbates his situation since liberals, like so many of us, tend to pick and choose for convenience, without much regard for the context in which he presents his positions. Since he already disagrees with some of the currently held (and not necessarily historically uncontested) traditionalist positions, this appropriation by the liberals makes him even more of an easy target.

    It is true that all faiths and ideologies do not have equivalent effects on societies but it is also equally true that what we call effects are deeply contested in terms of their moral character. Add to that the baggage of historical trajectories and theoretical constructs to make sense of them, and we have quite a task.

    Using your argument, you would then agree in principle that liberals/secularists can use certain religious groups or individuals for their purposes, political or otherwise, given that they either find allies in them for their cause celebre, frequently related to individual rights, but not infrequently premised in utilitarian considerations. That you may have a different utilitarian calculus in mind should only serve to mark a difference of opinion in using the said calculus rather than a disagreement in principle. This, of course, has implications for your political context.

    You write: ‘Yet people of different faiths and liberals can join hands in peace, and build ideas that promote peace.’

    I hope you won’t have a grouse with the Indian liberals if they too try to join hands with certain kinds of people in your country and exclude others to promote peace. Judging by your comments on other threads, it seems you find them hypocritical for what is essentially a position you have advocated in principle.

  • MilesToGo

    Allah has created Internet for a reason. It will be used on the judgement day.

  • hellfire

    lets talk about “hypocrites”. A person who yells, screams and cries over mistreatment of “blacks and browns” yet when faced with the deaths of such persons in terrorist actions such as what occurred in France..just brushes those deaths off, chalking it up to “unkil tom foolery” while mourning the death of a dog. A DOG!! So like extremist terrorist murderers know to screen folks. or perhaps, dear massadi, they indiscrimately shoot and killANYONE? which you seem to be abaolutely in agreement with.

  • Isfandyar

    RHR

    I have been silently watching the conversations on PTH. Why are you censoring Masadi. When he is not abusive he does make good points. People like Kaal are always at a loss of words in front of him. Why do you always have to appease these Indians. Have you ever deleted some of the Hindu hatemongers like Mohan, Parsad, Dunkrik, MilestoGo etc?

    They are allowed to freely abuse Muslims and when Masadi gives them an adequate reply, he is deleted.

    If he is abusive then you should ask him to refrain from it rather than out-rightly deleting. My request to Masadi Sahib is to interact without abuses because he is pretty good. Abuses give justification to people like RHR to mass delete him.

    By the way Kaal, I think your solution for Muslims is perhaps Hitler’s solution for Jews? What exactly you are trying to suggest here. Can you please clarify.

  • hellfire

    Ypu are extremely naive IsfN sAb. Masadi has been an abusive, obscenity laced ranting monkey on the back of any qnd all websites that tolerate him and his terrioristic tactics, He has reported good people to FBI, CIA and yes even Child Protective Services for being “perverts”. Answer him at your own risk but do not wonder why his obscene and angry rants are deleted. most have no intellectual content at all. rather they contain obscenities and curses, threats and wishes of death. he is a very sick person who requires psychiatric intervention. so any valid points that he may make are lot in his threatsand abuse.

  • RHR

    Hellfire

    This Isfandyar is bloody nut and a crackpot. I think he is third in lunacy ranking after Masadi and Rex

  • Singh

    20 lashes for too tight abaya, 5 for make-up, 5 for not being meek enough: women under ISIS. https://t.co/ALYMzvw3GG

  • CM

    Wendy Doniger: Partition may have been averted had Gandhi been less reverential toward cows

    http://scroll.in/article/768559/wendy-doniger-partition-may-have-been-averted-had-gandhi-been-less-reverential-toward-cows

  • Funny Bone

    Problem can never be solved if you refuse to accept there is a problem.
    .
    About half the Muslims I spoke to in Paris said “the Jews” did the terrorist attacks. 100% said Muslims didn’t. https://t.co/477oJPdplj

  • Fingolfin

    CM
    .
    http://www.cato.org/…/why-mahatma-gandhi-was-right…
    .
    Gandhi was not only against cow slaughter ban, but he also said that if such a ban was imposed, he would support the slaughter of cows by those who want to, in order to ensure that such a majoritarian imposition does not take place. His analogy of Pakistan banning idol worship leads to that conclusion when he says that he would continue to visit a temple in Pakistan in the event of such a ban.
    .

  • Fingolfin
  • kaalchakra

    “I think your solution for Muslims is perhaps Hitler’s solution for Jews?”

    Isfandyar, why on earth would you think so, or why would anyone think you are looking for a similar solution for non-Muslims? That is just too silly for words. Please get a hold of yourself.

    ———

    “Those who don’t agree with his beliefs will obviously try to use him for their own purposes, good or bad.”

    Quantum

    No one needs to “agree” with Ghamidi’s faith nor does Ghamidi have to agree with other people’s faiths in order for people to join hands in building peace. Working together to build peace for all is not “using” other people any more than say we are using each other here in trying to build our shared understandings.

    People who don’t agree with Ghamidi’s faith can work with him – knowing that we disagree with each other’s faiths – because his conception of his faith allows for that possibility of cooperation. That is possible far less frequently with traditionalists like Dr Israr Ahmed.

  • tajender

    kaalchakra,shining gujrat,

    https://youtu.be/PrbtcRwcMSI

    india should follow.

  • Rex Minor

    Isfandyar,

    you have asked of RHR a number of rational questions which could have been answered politely and explained that it is the PTH policy to promote a civilised dialogue especially among the expatriot Indians, some of whom are now Pakis by events of partition in the continent after the departure of the colonialists. No answer but some labels from the Phd candidate!
    Notithstanding the abuses that Mr Masadi at times throws at those with whom he converses or those who provoke him direct led by RHR, one should not ignore the reality that this site has the policy right or wrong is an attraction for the psychpaths as well both from the Indian and Pakistan subcontinent. One seldom comes across a site whose moderator actively involves himself in conversation with the bloggers, calls himself a liberal, but supports violence and publicises what he wrtes in the American neo con media publicly in support of the unlawful executions of suspects by droning them taking into account the murder of old, women and children in their mud dwellings.NeveYou have asked of RHR a number of rational questions.

    Rex Minor

  • dunkirk

    All my criticism of this arab religion is based on what this ideology has brought forth over 1400 years. I read palkistani newspapers to inform myself about islam and its results. They alone are my source of information on the results and effects of islam.


    As said above : God has brought forth the internet for a good reason.

    Thus we know how dangerous and evil islam is to the non-muslims – no matter how sweet the muslims talk about themselves and how much they glorify this arab imperialism and monogod totalitarianism.

    Ghazwa e hind means to exterminate hindus in India and bring India under the boot of islamic-arabic fascism.
    Pakistan is the product of this ghazwa and Pakistan’s existence depends upon carrying out this Ghazwa – starting in Kashmir. Many muslims in India are their helpers.

    Mohammad Ali Jinnah became a tool of this ghazwa whether he knew it or not. This proves that no muslim (howsoever liberal or moderate) can escape being used a tool of this ghazwa.
    Pakistan can respect in the eyes of its arab masters and alms-givers only by exterminating hindus and India.

  • RHR

    Ok Isfandyar

    Since Rex MINOR has mentioned it therefore let me tell you why I delete Masadi. I was not deleting him a few weeks ago but over time he has just become more abusive mainly due to the fact that unemployment is taking a real toll on him.
    A 45 year old guy is acting like a kid calling this site nothing and yet spending his all day here. Why comment if this is an insignificant site.
    I will STOP deleting him if he does not troll and conducts himself with civility.
    I won’t delete him provided he refrains from trolling.
    I have no issues with him otherwise. He is just an entertaining monkey whom I like to watch when he does his mujra. In fact all of us like him because he makes us laugh and contradicts the widely held belief that education makes people maturer and wiser

  • masadi

    isfand RHR is a liar, he mass deletes my substantive posts while leaving the cheap arguments of kaal intact, like today 24 hours of clean posts he deletes them all. He is a liar dont believe his crap.

  • RHR

    I will stop deleting you if you stop being abusive. I cannit go through each post to find the clean ones because most of your posts are abusive. Just stop being abusive and I wont delete

  • RHR

    By the way Rex MINOR

    What have you consumed today! You are incoherent even by your extremely high incoherent standards

  • kaalchakra

    Masadi, take RHR up on his offer. I have always held you are simply a nitwit, incapable of rational thought; and as such, rely on constantly abusing others to give your pseudo-arguments an a false aura of authenticity before those who themselves are slow in the head. Prove me wrong once again. We will all be glad. Best.

  • RHR

    Masadi I will not delete if you stop being abusive.
    I dont mind you calling me a septic tank or whatever or boasting that you are PhD from a University which no one has ever heard.
    I never used to delete you a few weeks ago.

  • RHR

    Just be civil and your posts will remain intact.
    Otherwise frankly it is just your and mine waste of time to just keep on playing this game of posting and deletion

  • Rex Minor

    Funny Bone,

    Problem can never be solved if you refuse to accept there is a problem.

    It is not the problem acceptance, but the diagnostic of the problem which is the pre-requisite for a solution of the problem. We have ghettos both in France and Belgium, with a time bombs ticking for explosions The under-privileaged youth born with North African rootes, have been experiencing discrimination and lack of employment in local communities is one major causual factor of the problem. Successive Governments have developed projects but did not imlement them fully due to other priorities.

    Let me give you a tip Sir; a person who supports violence or commit to violence is acting outside the fold of Islam, nor can he remain a muslim after he commits violence. A muslim like others regardless of their faith do Resist and this is a natural reaction among humans.

    Rex Minor

  • masadi

    I won, he surrendered. No need to waste time posting on paktattihouse.

  • masadi

    so long lying assholes.

  • kaalchakra

    Masadi is mortally scared of being exposed in a civil dialogue without the crutches of his abuses that he relies on to impress other numskulls. But he will be back. The pattern has held without any change last six years or more.

  • RHR

    Yes Kaal

    It is actually not possible for him to refrain from commenting. He will just create an excuse and start commenting. There is nothing in his life at the moment except commenting and trolling 😀
    For example he will say that although I did not want to comment but something which you said has ‘forced” me to.
    We all know the pattern.

  • RHR

    Rex

    What have you been smoking. Please tell me

  • MilesToGo

    Is there a resource for correct interpretations of Quran? I am guessing Ghamdi is one but he doesn’t have much credibility.

    Often times there is a complain from Muslims that Quran is being interpreted wrong. So was curious if there is such a resource…

  • tajender
  • Nobody

    Masadi is no longer posting on this site, please refrain from discussing him. As far as the quality of his arguments, people here can make up their own minds, propagandists of the Hindutva+ Mirzai variety should not be trusted regarding their assessment of him. Please do not forgot masadi is a well qualified PhD with several peer-reviewed publications to his name.

  • Nobody

    Please do not forget masadi is a well qualified PhD with several peer-reviewed publications to his name.

  • Rex Minor

    MTG,

    Use your intelligence; the scriptures are meant for the believers and not the infidels, who worship statues which they can see and touch. You have been denied the heavans and the earth and only allowed the space in between for a period after which you will be turned into ashes and washed away.

    Rex Minor

  • tajender

    I will stop deleting you if you stop being abusive. I cannit go through each post to find the clean ones because most of your posts are abusive. Just stop being abusive and I wont delete

    rhr, angrezi kee galle ko anger kahte hai,gaale woh hai jise urdu/hindi me diya jata.jisto sun ke rongte khade ho jate hain.

    . My request to Masadi Sahib is to interact without abuses because he is pretty good. Abuses give justification to people like RHR to mass delete him.
    isfandaryar you are right.

  • dunkirk

    septic tank is meant for keeping the Society safe from bad infections and smells.

    that is a good Job being done (or being tried) by rhr

    …but some muslims repeatedly let loose their islamofascistic stench and bad blood directly on us.

    islam’s Long term Goal of exterminating non-muslims uses all biological weapons including reproduction and stenching and stinking …

  • kaalchakra

    “that is a good Job being done (or being tried) by rhr”

    dunkirk, would it not be better if you too changed your style and at least incorporated greater variety into your posts? You do realize your posts come very close to spamming, right?

  • Nobody

    ” My request to Masadi Sahib is to interact without abuses”

    When masadi responds to “monkey mujra” or “haldol” with apt responses don’t tell him to not “abuse”- you are buying the crap spewed by the Hindutva Mirzai duo and trying to justify their baseless censorship. Masadi does not want to post here.

  • hellfire

    sure. ok….then why IS masadi posting here?? yah, we all know that masadi is nobody (literally and figuratively). lol. just cant get over it yah? haldol will help. the Ilieism is not cute on a middle aged man either btw.

  • tajender

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153279200536342&set=pcb.10153279200696342&type=3

    today one padam shree holder ,mr mahapatra from orrisa returned his award.

    another news ,brhmn wife of amir khan feel insecure in india.want to settle outside with amir.

    no lenienacy for sanjay dutt.