Comments for Pak Tea House

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Mythbuster

Mythbuster — Thu, 24 May 2012 02:49:12 +0000

“The status of women in all societies needs improvements, more so in India than the countries you mentioned……”
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Rex,

I guess we are talking about Afghanistan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Do you have any objective data to back the above statement or is it your personal opinion? How did you arrive at the above conclusion?

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Thu, 24 May 2012 01:26:05 +0000

@Raj too
India is not responsible for muslim countries, and need not concern itself about the social problems of women in their countries, other than to demand from their Govts. for better treatment of the migrant workers. The spring revolution spearheaded by their youth was to reform these societies who equaly have had a very long period of colonisation. It has slowed down because of external interventions.
The status of women in all societies needs improvements, more so in India than the countries you mentioned. Not only poverty but lack of education, the misuse of the resorces and wrong priorities of the leadership are the contributing factors for social problems of a country. Tajender has mentioned some which to which you guys were not very kind or receptive. I did not notice any malice in Tajendrs complaints but a cry of the person who has not only eperienced but the suffering of a person. Though I must say you guys are extremely emotional and very touchy.

There is nothing Islamic Erziehung which brings people to barbarity, your Denk fehler if you think that women and children slavery in India is due to the hindu faith. No it is lack of education and nothing but lack of education and the non-acceptance of the reality that men and women are born free with equal rights, though women are even today denied equal rights in many advanced societies of the world. The American administrations as well as the UNO organisations hire praktikants/students called INTERNS without wages and even subject hem to sextual assaults. Do you reckon it has ever drawn your attention? Have we forgotten bill Clinton sex affair with Monica Lewinsky? Yes, she was an intern!

Rex Minor

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by MilesToGo

MilesToGo — Wed, 23 May 2012 23:42:34 +0000

http://youtu.be/7IoMrxMmVSs

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by Fingolfin

Fingolfin — Wed, 23 May 2012 22:24:43 +0000

Mythbuster

another very very significant problem that India faces in its quest to eliminate the caste problem is that while the government has banned the caste structure, it still uses caste in a method they call “positive discrimination”. using caste as their benchmark, they provide various social and educational benefits to these castes. so backward castes find a lot of reservation in jobs and educational institutions across the country. while this is done keeping social betterment and financial upward mobility in mind, and so is done with good intentions, this ends up reinforcing the caste system that the government and the constitution have tried to eliminate. and yet, these caste based sops cannot now be taken away simply because caste based populist politics will not allow it. this has made the battle against caste all the more difficult and uphill. the discrimination that should have been made keeping only economic standing in mind s now made keeping caste in mind. as a result there are several Brahmins who are desperately poor and do not get any assistance from the government. conversely there are some extremely affluent backward class families that can claim all the sops from the government. this process also creates antagonism among the upper caste and lower caste people which is the reason the caste system is reinforced.
i think when they decided upon caste based “positive discrimination”, they seriously lacked any individual of prescience.

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by Fingolfin

Fingolfin — Wed, 23 May 2012 22:08:30 +0000

if this were Facebook i would have ‘liked’ Rex Minor’s and Mythbuster’s comments.
Mythbuster

as far as the caste issue is concerned, you are right. in the parts of the Indian society where it is significant, it is being followed by all groups and rejected by none. where it is not being followed it is not being followed by any group. so to thrust the blame of the issue onto the Brahmins is ridiculous. they MIGHT have come up with it, but now they are certainly not forcing anyone to conform to it.
so is casteism is an issue in India, then all communities, including Muslims, are to blame for they have not been able to rise above this illogical and inexplicable practice and here they are to blame. blaming the Brahmins is now an anachronism that has been perpetuated by many in order to distance and exonerate themselves from the entire issue.

Comment on Remembering Manto by PMA

PMA — Wed, 23 May 2012 21:19:47 +0000

It is not hard to understand why Manto wrote what he wrote in his post-1947 years. The 1947 division of the British India had dismantled his “world”. He was not a politician or a leader. He had no solution or vision for the political and economic future of the Muslims of the post-colonial British India. Nor it should be expected of him. His pre-independence work is remarkably different and freshening as compared to his post-independence work. Being a sensitive, rather a fragile person and a writer, he was shocked by the horror of the 1947 killings carried out by the Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims of British India. He reacted to the 1947 events and wrote stories to express his dismay. He was a writer par excellence but there is no need to make him a prophet or a god. He was an Urdu writer and is known as such. In Pakistan it would be nonsensical to call him as ‘Muslim writer’. Are Faiz, Faraz, Qasmi, Kazmi, Zaidi, Shafai of Pakistan “Muslim writers”. The problem is not with Manto. Manto is Manto and nothing else. The problem is with those who have “used” him and continue to use him to support their personal anti-Pakistan position and biases. The fact he wrote about the “partition” makes him a perfect tool for the anti-partition crowd. How sad that a non-political writer such as him is being used for the political propaganda.

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by RajTOO

RajTOO — Wed, 23 May 2012 20:25:25 +0000

Rex Minor,
India after Independence and even earlier, is one story of constant reform, in all social fields. You just need to pick a social topic from India and look at the reforms taking place in that field. So we are cleaning our house. BTW, many of our problems are due to the poverty which the Islamics and British have bequeathed upon India.
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What we notice however is that there have been hardly any reforms in Muslim countries. If at all, these countries have only become ever more conservative.
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Earlier in Afghanistan and Egypt, in the 70s and 80s, women could boast of a more liberal atmosphere. Now all are walking around in those shuttlecock burqas.
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The example from Saudi Arabia is very relevant. They do not have the same problems as India of poverty and paucity of resources. What is the reason that the Saudis are so barbaric towards their domestic help from other countries like Indonesia? So much wealth and still so little morality! It is all due to Islamic Erziehung!

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:59:56 +0000

@Tajender,

Remember my earlier post about the wise man, ” if you keep your head when all about you are loosing theirs………..More fellow travellers have joined in since PTH is allowing a free entry.

Rex Minor

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:55:44 +0000

One must clean the front of ones own house, before criticising other Govts conduct in human rights! This is not a myth to bust but a common sense which most have! In our local paper we have more horrible stories everyday than in many other parts of the world. Besides, we are in 2012 and no loger read 2011 news.

Rex Minor

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Mythbuster

Mythbuster — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:19:07 +0000

“I thought that the educated and intelligent Indians should pay attention to this reality rather than using investigative journalism in seventh century practices in Arabia, or nineteenth century India under the Brits….”

“Indonesian MPs have called for a ban on workers being sent to the Middle East, after Saudi Arabia executed a maid without informing Jakarta.

Indonesia has recalled its ambassador to Riyadh to express its anger.

A crowd of protesters gathered outside the Saudi embassy in Jakarta displaying banners and T-shirts in support of the executed worker.

The maid, Ruyati binti Sapubi, was beheaded with a sword on Saturday after confessing to murdering her boss.

Indonesian media reports said she attacked her boss with a meat cleaver after being denied permission to return home.

About 1.5 million Indonesians work in Saudi Arabia – many of them as domestic maids.

Anger has been growing in recent years over the treatment of migrant workers – particularly maids, who often complain of mistreatment…..”
(From BBC News 2011)

Comment on Difference between Islam and Political Islam by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:00:45 +0000

Why talk abut slavery in Islam, or in the USA and African history We are all slaves of one sort or other, though we are treated by our masters well and we can even negotiate better salaries and our trade unions can negotiate equitable working conditions and yearly salary increases and othe social benefits. Now I did not mean to forget the poor slaves of India, entire village populations who work for the contractor master for food and clothing only. The contractor has supposedly bought them with a sum of money for a number of years. The Indian labour minister denies that they are slaves and names them as a bonded labour. However, he indicated that the central Govt. is making an effort to stop this inhumane practice, but he also states that the responsibility for this is with the responsible Provincial Govt. I thought that the educated and intelligent Indians should pay attention to this reality rather than using investigative journalism in seventh century practices in Arabia, or nineteenth century India under the Brits.

rex minor

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by ahem

ahem — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:54:24 +0000

to rex

Muslims cannot be part of India and indian-ness. That is their own wish also. Indian-ness is very open-minded, but a monogod-totalitarian, finalist-fascist ideology has no place in it. islam’s record is that of destroying tolerance, rationalism and open-minded-ness (of which some muslims are actually proud and have declared their intention to repeat this “glorious” performance all over the world).

Muslims must carry out their islamic experiments in Arabia – not on hindu lands like the Sindhu river basin. Muslims must pay compensation to the hindus for the damage caused by the muslims.

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by Mythbuster

Mythbuster — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:43:00 +0000

Dear Tajender,
I am not a Hindu or a Muslim. As a neutral observer I think that your arguments smack of strong anti-Hindu, anti-India bias. Someone labeled it Tajendering; an unfortunate slur but aptly descriptive nevertheless.
1. In trying to compare Hinduism with Islam you assume that these have exact features (albeit opposite). That is a fallacy. Islam is a very organized faith, bound tightly and specifically by its scriptures. It had spiritual aspects, religious dogma and very strong and well defined political aspects; (something emphasized by the Islamists). Hinduism has no such. It is a system of personal faith and there is dogma but there is no political aspects; the RSS\Shiv Sena\ Hindutva ideology notwithstanding.
Hindutva is almost purely a political nationalistic (sometimes ubernationalistic) movement that tried to harness religion to politically unite the Hindus the way once Jinnah did. In this it briefly found a spark during Ayodhya movement but like Jinnah’s Pakistan movement it is bound to fail in the long run to unite the Hindus to one cause because the divisions of caste, class, region and religion (different versions) run too deep in entire South Asia. Unlike Political Islam there is no scriptural text that guides Hindutva, which is not regious but a political platform.
2. You appear to be a proponent of Political Islam and in your strange way support it by first raise the bogey of Political Hinduism and try to demolish it; a classical straw man fallacy because as I said, for one thing there is no political Hinduism; only Hindutva and an very small political minority adheres to it.
Hindu Brahmins wield no special influence in India which is a secular democracy; and for all its other faults, works as well or badly as other democracies.
In fact due to vote bank politics, organized groups such as Dalits, Yadavas, jats, Sikhs wield inordinate amount of political power within their regions. You may not be familiar but can check out the daily news from India and confirm this yourself.
3. As for many of the ills of Hinduism that you list; I believe they are cultural. The caste system is supported not only by the Brahimins but almost all other Hindu and non Hindu castes, Khatris, Yadavas,Baniyas.Even the Jains and Indian Muslims who refuse to give up caste identity, intermix socially or marry outside their caste. This phenomena extends to the so called egalitarian faiths too. Jat Sikhs kill for honor if they find daughters marrying another caste; the very same honor killings are prevalent among the Hindu Jats in Haryana and the Muslims in both India and Pakistan. Like I said, it is cultural; and pervasive across the entire Sub continent. So is backwardness, bigotry, chauvinism and hypocrisy.
4. Your defense of Aurangzeb by mentioning Ashoka is disingenuous. For one thing; very little is known of Ashoka’s life. (A few Pakistani websites claim he never existed). Even if Ashoka was a mass murderer it does not change the fact that Aurangzeb was a cold and calculating killer. He killed Dara, he killed Shuja, he killed Murad, he killed Siphir Shikoh; all his kinsmen.
He imprisoned Shahjahan, the Emperor of India; an act of high treason. More important that all of the above, he destroyed the one and only functioning institution in the empire; the office of the Emperor by making it subject to force and political assassinations. Let alone his hapless subjects, the results of this was disastrous for the house of Timur. Consider the following random examples of later Emperors. Jahandar Shah-murdered. Farukhsiyar, blinded, then murdered. Ahmed Shah, murdered. Alamgir II-murdered. Shah Alam II, blinded. So on and so forth.
5. Auranzeb was not unaware of what he had done to the empire and to his family. Here below are lines from one of his last recorded letters. “ I brought nothing into this world, and, except the infirmities of man, carry nothing out. I have a dread for my salvation, and with what torments I may be punished. Though I have strong reliance on the mercies and bounty of God, yet, regarding my actions, fear will not quit me; but, when I am gone, reflection will not remain……”
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If you are still not convinced of Aurangzeb’s legacy, conisider the following lines from the Emperor himself:
“Az ma-st hamah fasad-i-baqi” (After me, CHAOS!)
Judge for yourself…..

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:08:59 +0000

PS
Sorry, my laptop is playing silly bugger. I am realy overwhemed. India has a great potential, a unique in the world. No other equivalent Nation exists today, not Americas(absence of indigenous population), nor Australia, perhaps Europe, but we have just recently started. India has the monumental task to develop the country into a true democracy, an enterprise of people who for thousands of years have lived with each other despite so many setbacks and frictions, A Land of so many colours which one sees in the textile which reflect the thousand years of their history in the knitted artwork by village women. I am ovrwhelmed after seeing a documentry film yesterday.

So Raj and the rest , stop this bickerin about this and that, stop paying the Jazya if you will when you work in the Gulf States and stop criticising muslims for they are part of you, never mind the two separate Governments in India and Pakistan.

Rex Minor

Comment on Ugly Mullahs of Pakistan by Rex Minor

Rex Minor — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:50:08 +0000

Tajender commentry on many aspects of Indian communities has been very useful particuarly where they very much differ from or possibly could impact the minoriies in the community. But let me say this much that India in my view is the most colourful country in the world, with its vast indigenous population of multiethnic origin, vielfältig(varied and diverse), vielschichtig(mutilayr and complex), vielsetig(many sided) and vielsprachig(multiple spoken languages). In my opinion all integrated wih one another, their cultures, traditions and customs and even emotions all of them so cohesive and overlapping each and every one else